I don't understand the Mac vs PC debates

Ranicand

The way I understand it is a MAC is an Apple computer that has it's own OS.

It is meant to be sleek and is aimed towards the higher price range of the market.

New PCs run Windows 7 which I agree is their best OS to date.
You can go for a cheap PC or go for an expensive one.

I was looking at some of the new all in one PCs and they look very nice.

A Mac offers less options than a PC at the purchase stage but I think it offers more style.

Choice is never a bad thing?

nesf

It made sense back in the day that Macs didn't use Intel chips. Right now, a Mac just gives you both worlds, there's no loss in terms of usability in getting a Mac only in the price/component choice department.

Dymo

The debates are because, someone has a computer problem and then someone with a mac says you should buy a mac never any problems and then the debate begins,

Sad Professor

In the Laptop and C&T forum the debate seems to begin anytime someone even suggests getting a Mac. "PC users" (by which I take to mean Windows users) probably do get annoyed by the perceived smugness of Mac users, but surely they could at least learn something about Macs before they start bashing them. Too much of what I read about Macs here and elsewhere sounds like people repeating crap that they read in comments section of Gizmodo or where ever.

On one hand PC users get all offended when someone suggest a Mac is anything other than a high-end PC, but on the other, they insist on pitting the Mac against every other computer manufacturer. So instead of comparing like with like, they compare a Macbook Pro with a cheapo Dell and say "Why would you buy a Mac?", when the exact same criticism could be levied against Sony or other high-end computer manufacturers. It doesn't make sense. Apple aren't competing with Dell so why compare them, and if the Mac is just a high-end PC with a different operating system then why do people feel so threatened by them?

I also think it's silly how Mac-haters dismiss Mac users as fanboys when their own irrational hatred of Macs is pretty typical fanboy behaviour. And at the end of the day, I think that is what the whole debate is about: fanboyism. It's my computer versus your computer. Mac users are certainly guilty of it, and we could probably do with turning down the smugness-factor a few notches, but it's hard not to be smug when you see someone fecking around with Windows. Although it has to be said that Windows 7 is actually very useable compared to its predecessors. Kudos Microsoft.

desaparecidos

Sad Professor wrote: »

In the Laptop and C&T forum the debate seems to begin anytime someone even suggests getting a Mac. "PC users" (by which I take to mean Windows users) probably do get annoyed by the perceived smugness of Mac users, but surely they could at least learn something about Macs before they start bashing them. Too much of what I read about Macs here and elsewhere sounds like people repeating crap that they read in comments section of Gizmodo or where ever.

On one hand PC users get all offended when someone suggest a Mac is anything other than a high-end PC, but on the other, they insist on pitting the Mac against every other computer manufacturer. So instead of comparing like with like, they compare a Macbook Pro with a cheapo Dell and say "Why would you buy a Mac?", when the exact same criticism could be levied against Sony or other high-end computer manufacturers. It doesn't make sense. Apple aren't competing with Dell so why compare them, and if the Mac is just a high-end PC with a different operating system then why do people feel so threatened by them?

I also think it's silly how Mac-haters dismiss Mac users as fanboys when their own irrational hatred of Macs is pretty typical fanboy behaviour. And at the end of the day, I think that is what the whole debate is about: fanboyism. It's my computer versus your computer. Mac users are certainly guilty of it, and we could probably do with turning down the smugness-factor a few notches, but it's hard not to be smug when you see someone fecking around with Windows. Although it has to be said that Windows 7 is actually very useable compared to its predecessors. Kudos Microsoft.

People feck around with Windows because they are idiots. Place same idiot in front of Mac and see a similar response.

I note you use the term "high-end" quite a lot. Interesting...

Sad Professor

desaparecidos wrote: »

People feck around with Windows because they are idiots. Place same idiot in front of Mac and see a similar response.

Perhaps. But a lot of Mac users who have switched from Windows would beg to differ.

I note you use the term "high-end" quite a lot. Interesting...

By high-end I just meant high priced or high quality, which is what the OP said.

fasty

Mac vs PC debates are so boring. Anyone who even cares instead of just getting the computer they want and using it is a fool.

Stainless_Steel

Sad Professor wrote: »

In the Laptop and C&T forum the debate seems to begin anytime someone even suggests getting a Mac. "PC users" (by which I take to mean Windows users) probably do get annoyed by the perceived smugness of Mac users, but surely they could at least learn something about Macs before they start bashing them. Too much of what I read about Macs here and elsewhere sounds like people repeating crap that they read in comments section of Gizmodo or where ever.

On one hand PC users get all offended when someone suggest a Mac is anything other than a high-end PC, but on the other, they insist on pitting the Mac against every other computer manufacturer. So instead of comparing like with like, they compare a Macbook Pro with a cheapo Dell and say "Why would you buy a Mac?", when the exact same criticism could be levied against Sony or other high-end computer manufacturers. It doesn't make sense. Apple aren't competing with Dell so why compare them, and if the Mac is just a high-end PC with a different operating system then why do people feel so threatened by them?

I also think it's silly how Mac-haters dismiss Mac users as fanboys when their own irrational hatred of Macs is pretty typical fanboy behaviour. And at the end of the day, I think that is what the whole debate is about: fanboyism. It's my computer versus your computer. Mac users are certainly guilty of it, and we could probably do with turning down the smugness-factor a few notches, but it's hard not to be smug when you see someone fecking around with Windows. Although it has to be said that Windows 7 is actually very useable compared to its predecessors. Kudos Microsoft.

Agree with all of this.

Mac users tend to be a little too smug but generally that is because they usually have knowledge of both systems, whereas a typical Windows user has only ever used Windows and is a bit narrow minded.

I know a good few "Apple haters". None of them have ever used a Mac for more than 20 seconds.

High-end would be the right word to use for Mac products I suppose....you get what you pay for and all that. In saying that I do think they are a bit overpriced for what components go into them....BUT I am sure that an Apple product will have had a lot more design cost than a typical Windows laptop.

KylieWyley

Ranicand wrote: »

Choice is never a bad thing?

You've hit the nail in the head with that word.

Choice = differences = different reasons to choose one over the other = debate.

Then, you will always have people that need to debate and defend their position because psychologically we, as consumers, have a need to rationalise and justify our purchases.

bryaner

Is it not generally thought that mac's are trophy machines?

Stainless_Steel

bryaner wrote: »

Is it not generally thought that mac's are trophy machines?

I have only heard this from people that have never used one.

The software engineering on them is second to none. They have substance and style.

bryaner

Stainless_Steel wrote: »

I have only heard this from people that have never used one.

The software engineering on them is second to none. They have substance and style.

Used both but mainly windows machines, found the mac's nice but can't justify the extra dosh..

maccored

i find macs are reliable, better built and last longer than the average PC. better bang for the buck longterm, plus even the lowest spec mac is usually pretty powerful compared to the average windows machine.

I work as a windows IT person as a day job, but run macs at home. the imac I have at work is 7 years old, runs XP in virtualbox and hasnt been a bit of trouble since i got it. most of my colleagues have went through two machines in the same time period. I think this is what people buy macs for.

Odaise Gaelach

Mac hardware is quite nice: the screens in particular. And a good screen can outshine almost any fault.

But I'd choose Windows 7 over OS X any day of the week.

Hobbes

I find the whole PC vs Mac thing quite irrational and those that claim that Macs are the spawn of the Devil tend to have never actually used one.

The truth is, it is a machine and it does the job it is intended for (quite well). From my usage of the Macs, the amount of times I have had to resolve something in the last couple of years is two times. On a PC it is normally 1-2 times a week (if not Win7).

Price is also deceptive. For example your average PC user won't go any buy a new machine when theirs starts to get old. Instead you upgrade the components. But would normally spend more on the components then normal if they were buying a new machine. Over time it is isn't that much different. Once they are at a point they plan to resell it they never factor in the total price of every component ever bought.

Macs on the other hand retain resale value better then a PC. So once you get a Mac, it is much easier to sell yours and buy the next model up.

Normally when I show my mac running windows apps + Mac apps as well as games side by side they stfu.

TL;DR. It is more like a compliance then a computer. You get what you need to do done instead of having to learn how to use in order to get things done.

fasty

And as if by magic, this tweet showed up in my feed:

Q: How do you know if someone uses a Mac? A: They will tell you.

Cuddlesworth

maccored wrote: »

i find macs are reliable, better built and last longer than the average PC. better bang for the buck longterm, plus even the lowest spec mac is usually pretty powerful compared to the average windows machine.

I work as a windows IT person as a day job, but run macs at home. the imac I have at work is 7 years old, runs XP in virtualbox and hasnt been a bit of trouble since i got it. most of my colleagues have went through two machines in the same time period. I think this is what people buy macs for.

I think you have a perception that MAC's are more reliable. They aren't really, they pack the exact same chips and drives as other manufacturer and have roughly the same failure rates. I think that people get so worked up at MAC users not because they paid extra for the OS but because they bought a premium machine.

You can buy similar Dells/HP's ect, that are as light, have high quality screens, are well designed and have a high quality look and feel etc. They are usually just a few hundred off(100-200) the equivalent MAC. But its rare that I would ever actually see one of these especially in a work Environment where we would see the highest variety of machines and heard the most of personal opinion. So its a sort of envy I guess or anger at money that in there minds would be better spent elsewhere.

I will say that with Windows 7 the justification for buying a MAC really took a hit.

maccored

no its not just a perception - its from repairing windows machines on a daily basis, and rarely having to do much to the mac in the same office. Personally I'd call that hard lived experience.

Yes, you can buy similar Dells etc, but they usually work out more expensive. plus the build quality of a Dell is usually pretty ****. Plus Windows 7 is basically XP with eye candy if you take a deep enough look at it.

maccored

Odaise Gaelach wrote: »

But I'd choose Windows 7 over OS X any day of the week.

you obviously havent used either for very long?

muggyog

This is what its really about.



HP make cheap computers and the build quality is cr@p.
Apple make more expensive computers and the build quality is better.
If an OS decided your choice you would plump for a free one i.e. Linux.

Solution: buy a Mac and run Ubuntu on it, all boxes ticked! ........ wait OS X IS UNIX

Freddie59

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I will say that with Windows 7 the justification for buying a MAC really took a hit.

Not so. I bough a 27" iMac in June 2010. Prior to that I had used PCs for 12 years. What swung me was the screen definition and speed of the machine when I was setting one up for a friend. Having researched them, I bought one several weeks later.

I also have Windows 7 installed on it through Parallels. I've never been into the whole Mac v PC debate. All my life I've bought stuff that i liked - not because someone else had it.

My experience:

* There is a very notable difference between the build quality of a Mac and that of a PC - down to even the mouse and keyboard.

* Windows 7 is already becoming sluggish. You can see it slowing down, either opening Internet pages or accessing some folders.

* The Mac is the same as the day I powered it up. No difference.

* I have had only one minor problem with Mac OS.

* I have had multiple minor problems with W7.

* I also own a four year-old Dell Optiplex 745. Bumping and grinding along while starting up, and taking ages to shut down.

As has already been pointed out, like for like specs can lead to a close call in prices between the two. If they are neck and neck price-wise, then the Mac wins hands down.

However, in my experience, there is a huge gulf in price between a bog-standard PC and an entry-level Mac. Thus the reason why the PCs sales penetration is greater.

There are areas, however, where the PC and Windows OS wins hands down. For example, I do an amount of Video editing, and Final Cut Express is touted as being magnificent. It is - but falls far short of the PC-based Pinnacle system in terms of transitions, ease of use, etc. You can't get Pinnacle for Mac (yet). That said, FCE NEVER crashes. It just works. Whereas Pinnacle requires seven levels of patience, due to freezing, etc. But, as a domestic video editor, the finished Pinnacle product is far superior.

I am sure that there are other programs which differ similarly.

Ranicand

Well this is my take on the whole thing.

I spent the extra to go for a MAC but in all honesty a decent Windows 7 PC would have done the job.

However the MAC does it in style.

I use my computer for all my media music movies and photos and a bit of internet.

I transferred all my stuff over from the PC and I am liking all the cool way the Mac handles it.

My first PC used XP and that was a nightmare my last one had Vista and despite all the bad press I never had a problem with it.
Mac OS is a dream.


I had my PC linked to my Xbox as a media extender with the Mac I am linked to my Apple TV device instead.

A Mac is not better than a PC however it is nicer that is my opinion.

Paparazzo

Ranicand wrote: »

I don't understand the Mac vs PC debates

It seems that the entire debate is nerds arguing over what doesn't matter to 99% of computer users

Ranicand

Paparazzo wrote: »

It seems that the entire debate is nerds arguing over what doesn't matter to 99% of computer users

Yes I agree for what I do on a computer Mac or PC makes no practical difference.

However for me I use my computer for entertainment and a Mac is nice.

cgarrad

Anyone who thinks that a Mac (with which you can do less and pay more for the privilege) is superior to a PC is mad.

Ranicand

cgarrad wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that a Mac (with which you can do less and pay more for the privilege) is superior to a PC is mad.

Yes I agree that is why I don't understand the wars between the two nerd camps.

A Mac is nice and if somebody is willing to pay the price so be it.

Odaise Gaelach

maccored wrote: »

you obviously havent used either for very long?

As it happens, I have. And I would still prefer Windows 7 over OS X.

desaparecidos

maccored wrote: »

you obviously havent used either for very long?

Mac user greater than thou arragance overload.

fasty

Freddie59 wrote: »

* Windows 7 is already becoming sluggish. You can see it slowing down, either opening Internet pages or accessing some folders.

* The Mac is the same as the day I powered it up. No difference.

* I have had only one minor problem with Mac OS.

* I have had multiple minor problems with W7.

This sort of stuff is anecdotal. I've had very few problems with two Win7 machines loaded with dev tools, SDKs, beta software and near 24/7/365 uptime.

Likewise my OSX machines have run pretty well with only minor issues.

Basically, they're both pretty much as stable and usable as each other, all things being equal.

Teferi

cgarrad wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that a Mac (with which you can do less and pay more for the privilege) is superior to a PC is mad.

You should probably avoid the Mac forum so.

OctavarIan

I can't understand these arguments either. I refuse to call them debates, because the word 'debate' usually implies a researched and logical exchange between two parties, not monkeys flinging **** at each other.

They're usually perpetrated by the poor souls who can't take a step back and realise how amazing it actually is to have so much choice over what we use.

conor.hogan.2

Choose what you want. But one causes less hassle and eventually pays for itself.

desaparecidos

Everything you can do on a Mac, you can do on a PC.

You cannot say the same for the reverse.

Sad Professor

Really? What can you not do on a Mac?

BlastedGlute

I was all set to make the change a few weeks ago. I had 3k saved up for general tomfoolery and was looking to invest in a mac for photography and video editing purposes.

It all started to go downhill when I went to the site to build the machine using the process they have going on there (in many ways identical to the build process dell use on their on their site)

I was horrified to see the available components for the iMac.

Why in the manger of sweet baby jesus would I pay €2300 for a computer that can literally be constructed for around €500-€600(including a 3D screen if you so pleased)

they absolutely nuke their own system with rubbish below par video cards in a machine that should be worthy of heavy video editing capabilities or dare I say it....games??? 3d applications????? I could care less about the CPU in cases like this. I'm honestly shocked at how low end these parts are and how exorbitant the price point is. I love my iPhone, they really hit the nail with that device.

I currently have windows 7 64bit and I have to say how impressed I am with system stability and performance. I also invested in a Gainward Phantom 570GTX card which completely trashes anything apple have chosen for their desktops. Gaming and 3D power IS important these days. Photoshop might run smooth on a Mac, but thats not enough anymore.

BlastedGlute

Sad Professor wrote: »

Really? What can you not do on a Mac?

Play Crysis on max settings.

deceit

BlastedGlute wrote: »

I was all set to make the change a few weeks ago. I had 3k saved up for general tomfoolery and was looking to invest in a mac for photography and video editing purposes.

It all started to go downhill when I went to the site to build the machine using the process they have going on there (in many ways identical to the build process dell use on their on their site)

I was horrified to see the available components for the iMac.

Why in the manger of sweet baby jesus would I pay €2300 for a computer that can literally be constructed for around €500-€600(including a 3D screen if you so pleased)

they absolutely nuke their own system with rubbish below par video cards in a machine that should be worthy of heavy video editing capabilities or dare I say it....games??? 3d applications????? I could care less about the CPU in cases like this. I'm honestly shocked at how low end these parts are and how exorbitant the price point is. I love my iPhone, they really hit the nail with that device.

I currently have windows 7 64bit and I have to say how impressed I am with system stability and performance. I also invested in a Gainward Phantom 570GTX card which completely trashes anything apple have chosen for their desktops. Gaming and 3D power IS important these days. Photoshop might run smooth on a Mac, but thats not enough anymore.

This is the reason why i've never owned a mac desktop but i've bought two macbooks just for messing about with. Just looking on there site going from 3gb ram too 6gb ram in there pro version adds 225 or add 250 for another 5770 graphics card that costs 100 for pc?? Thats nuts. I do like osx but its not worth that premium. Can just imagine the price a gtx580 will be if they release it. I will buy another macbook though in the near future and there screens are brilliant. Now only if you could build your own pc and have osx/win 7/ubuntu on it now that would be the best of both worlds dont you think? A pc for 600 that is more powerful than a 2500 mac pro and your sorted

PeakOutput

desaparecidos wrote: »

Everything you can do on a Mac, you can do on a PC.

You cannot say the same for the reverse.

The only way that is true is if you take individual games and use the ones that are not mac compatible as examples but if you do that then you have to look at every programme individually and that means that there are things you can do on a mac that you cannot do on a pc as well as vice versa so either way you are 100% wrong

I use both

If anyone could be bothered (because I am not) I would be interested in finding out what the equivalent of my imac would cost if it was a windows machine including the os and everything else i would need

27inch 2560 * 1440 display
2.93ghz intel core i7
12gb of ram
1tb western digital 7200 (ghz????) harddrive


I got friends and family discount from an apple staff member but without it it would have cost under $2,500 plus the after market ram which was around 200 I think

deceit

I'm just curious do mac's now accept standard pc gear like pc ram, hd's, cpu's and graphics cards? If that was the case would make them a little more useful

fasty

Yeah, the components are mostly interchangeable, although the graphics card situation is a bit messy, I think for Macs you need a Mac specific card with a certain BIOS although I read on Ars Technica that new builds of Snow Leopard and Lion have support for generic Radeon HD cards.

The problem is it's hard to upgrade iMacs and Mac Pros are very expensive.

deceit

PeakOutput wrote: »

The only way that is true is if you take individual games and use the ones that are not mac compatible as examples but if you do that then you have to look at every programme individually and that means that there are things you can do on a mac that you cannot do on a pc as well as vice versa so either way you are 100% wrong

I use both

If anyone could be bothered (because I am not) I would be interested in finding out what the equivalent of my imac would cost if it was a windows machine including the os and everything else i would need

27inch 2560 * 1440 display
2.93ghz intel core i7
12gb of ram
1tb western digital 7200 (ghz????) harddrive


I got friends and family discount from an apple staff member but without it it would have cost under $2,500 plus the after market ram which was around 200 I think

If you bought the screen for 1k off apple then adding a pc would cost about 1500 total for the equivalent spec so a saving of 1k but for some its worth that for osx but that would be if you build it yourself or pay for it too be built, as most companies like dell and such also have silly prices for woeful hardware.

BlastedGlute

Changing video cards on a Mac just isnt worth it. The over heating issues you'll suffer in an iMac at least wont do you any favors. There's no space in there for big heatsinks on cards either, im pretty sure you'd have to remove it (such as on my phantom,, barely fits in my monster ATX case as it is. As above, buy the screen from apple if you really think it's worth it and yo'd easily pile the rest together for around the 500bucks mark. personalyl i prefer to run 2 monitors rather than on large one, I have 2 24" LG W2361v and I'm waiting on my Acer 3D screen to get here, solely for gaming. Both work for their intended purposes but there really is more limitation in iOS than there is in Windows, there will always be an equivalent program in windows to anything for a Mac but most certainly not the other way around. Most Mac owners I know have a PC and a Mac. If the Mac really was such an all round machine why have 2 at all???

PeakOutput

BlastedGlute wrote: »

there will always be an equivalent program in windows to anything for a Mac but most certainly not the other way around.

can you think of an example?

conor.hogan.2

I have never had a program where there wasn't an alternative. Also there is vm's or dual booting.

BlastedGlute

Well Apple have this amazing way of relaunching old technology as if they just invented it (facetime...ahem....) Spotlight was something they were very proud of and apparently completely unique to Mac....

Windows Desktop Search anyone?? It's been a component of several microsoft applications for a looong time. The MSN toolbar for instance.

Spotlight was apparently something totally unique to iOS and Apple but really it was just a relaunched program that windows never made too much of a fuss about.

The list for actual programs is extensive, such as, nearly every game ever made.

Again Facetime. It's just....Skype?? But I can only contact other people with....Facetime...! I get it, marketing genius, social netowkring and communications entrapment. But innovation? Not exactly.

I love the way Mac users need examples. How about we get one from you guys. Whats a program for Mac that doesnt have any sort of Windows equivalent?

BlastedGlute

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I have never had a program where there was an alternative. Also there is vm's or dual booting.

What does that even mean? You've never used GIMP instead of photoshop? Or VLC instead of AllPlayer?????

Every program has an equivalent, to my immediate understanding. I'm sure we could go to the depths of programming or 3D utilities where there are standouts. But generally speaking. There is simply nothing you cant do on a PC that you can do on a Mac. Nothing.

conor.hogan.2

That was a typo. Use windows if you want.

You seem very passionate over something you dont like, just dont use it?

conor.hogan.2

Windows search before win7 was nowhere near as good as spotlight.

PeakOutput

BlastedGlute wrote: »

Well Apple have this amazing way of relaunching old technology as if they just invented it (facetime...ahem....) Spotlight was something they were very proud of and apparently completely unique to Mac....

Well I agree with that but you can criticize any company for their marketing and talking **** we are talking about actual real life usage forget the marketing

Windows Desktop Search anyone?? It's been a component of several microsoft applications for a looong time. The MSN toolbar for instance.

Spotlight was apparently something totally unique to iOS and Apple but really it was just a relaunched program that windows never made too much of a fuss about.

I dont know anything about thatspotlight thing maybe it was before my mac time but its OSX not iOS

The list for actual programs is extensive, such as, nearly every game ever made.

Gamers get pcs, this is changing blizzard is commited to simaltaneous mac pc releases, steam is now on a mac the idea that you cannot game on a mac is outdated, if your a hardcore gamer a mac wont suit you, for everyone else its fine

Again Facetime. It's just....Skype?? But I can only contact other people with....Facetime...! I get it, marketing genius, social netowkring and communications entrapment. But innovation? Not exactly.

So? I have two macs both have skype on them, whats the problem? also I beleive facetime was brought in for the iphone first, and it was the first mobile video calling solution, but I am open to correction on that, and then they started rolling it out as something you could do with other mac hardware. I think skype is only now starting to allow video calling through their mobile apps so in that respect it was innovative

I love the way Mac users need examples. How about we get one from you guys. Whats a program for Mac that doesnt have any sort of Windows equivalent?

I don't know I am not saying either are limited in anyway unless your a hardcore gamer but you are saying macs are so its on you to prove it as far as I am concerned. I prefer the way apple does things and using an imac dosn't limit me in anyway that I have found yet

edit; oh and their build quality is immaculate I have had top end alienware machines before they were bought by dell and top end dell machines and my macs have outlasted them all. my friends who have various machines from other manufacturers always seem to be replacing theirs at least twice in the time it takes for me to replace once (iv had my macbook for 4 years for example and could have easily gotten by with it on its own but had the money to buy an imac in september so i did, macbook is still trucking away)

Creamy Goodness

desaparecidos wrote: »

Everything you can do on a Mac, you can do on a PC.

You cannot say the same for the reverse.

write an app for iOS on a windows pc and come back to us when finished.

fasty

BlastedGlute wrote: »

Well Apple have this amazing way of relaunching old technology as if they just invented it (facetime...ahem....) Spotlight was something they were very proud of and apparently completely unique to Mac....

Windows Desktop Search anyone?? It's been a component of several microsoft applications for a looong time. The MSN toolbar for instance.

Spotlight was apparently something totally unique to iOS and Apple but really it was just a relaunched program that windows never made too much of a fuss about.

Now now, OSX is far from perfect, but Spotlight's technology is streets ahead of Windows Desktop Search in the sense that it's integrated into the core of the operating system. Hell, that tech is what made Time Machine work too, meaning incremental backups can be done WITHOUT scanning the filesystem totally each time.

Likewise Apple's use of mDNSResponder to discover services and things like Grand Central Dispatch are all ahead of the pack here.

Furthermore, Cocoa, the toolkit for making Mac and iOS apps is almost magical.

I also like Apple's use of gestural support in their OS. I find myself missing gestures on my Windows machine.