Grand National - Animal cruelty posing as sport and entertainment?

Da Shins Kelly

Watched it today and was a little bit shocked. Two horses were killed - one broke its back, the other its neck. What exactly is the purpose of this race other than people putting on tiny bets and then watching to see who makes it back in one piece? Why do the fences have to be THAT enormous and why does there have to THAT many horses in the field for it to be entertaining? It all came across as a little barbaric today, is all..

hoodwinked

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Watched it today and was a little bit shocked. Two horses were killed - one broke its back, the other its neck. What exactly is the purpose of this race other than people putting on tiny bets and then watching to see who makes it back in one piece? Why do the fences have to be THAT enormous and why does there have to THAT many horses in the field for it to be entertaining? It all came across as a little barbaric today, is all..

Formula 1 Watched it today and was a little bit shocked. Two horses cars were killed - one broke its back wing, the other its neck wheel. What exactly is the purpose of this race other than people putting on tiny bets and then watching to see who makes it back in one piece? Why do the fences have to be THAT enormous cars have to go THAT fast and why does there have to THAT many horses in the field cars on track for it to be entertaining? It all came across as a little barbaric today, is all..



see any entertainment fits in your rant can do it for soccer too if you want?

Wait, horses were killed?
I thought they weren't harmed especially if crops weren't used
Urgh

PeakOutput

the horses actually enjoy racing, its unfortunate that two were killed obviously but horse racing is not cruel

im invisible

some of the bets arnt that small, tbf

Minstrel27

I did wonder how long it would take for this thread to appear.

Coriolanus

The horses don't get a choice though do they? A race driver can choose not to drive.

JONJO THE MISER

Just back from the bookies great buzz down there for the national.

mike65

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Watched it today and was a little bit shocked. Two horses were killed - one broke its back, the other its neck. What exactly is the purpose of this race other than people putting on tiny bets and then watching to see who makes it back in one piece? Why do the fences have to be THAT enormous and why does there have to THAT many horses in the field for it to be entertaining? It all came across as a little barbaric today, is all..

Is it the horses that are the issue or death in sport? I mention that as Forumla One racing used to kill two or three drivers a year (now thats unthinkable) were you concerned about that? Or is it sentiment about horses?

The fences are not as testing as they usd to be and the whole point of the GN course is that it is a challange. Its the Nurburgring of horses racing. I have to say if it went I wouldn't be too disappointed

Snappy the Moose

It is probably shocking to the untrained eye as such. Certainly not animal cruelty.

These are horses that are trained and bred to participate in this sport, there is a ballot to ensure the most efficient horses get entered also. It is unfortunate that horses died but nobody wants to see that, if the trainers owners are worried there is nobody stopping them from pulling their horse.

Oranage2

Only crimes against entertainment -

Horse racing is as boring if not more so than golf

Snappy the Moose

Nevore wrote: »

The horses don't get a choice though do they? A race driver can choose not to drive.

They can refuse to jump off. These horses are trained for this sport, they are not average horses just thrown into a race. You are probably seeing it as cruel due to a lack of knowledge.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Oranage2 wrote: »

Only crimes against entertainment -

Horse racing is as boring if not more so than golf

In your opinion.

Da Shins Kelly

hoodwinked wrote: »

Formula 1 Watched it today and was a little bit shocked. Two horses cars were killed - one broke its back wing, the other its neck wheel. What exactly is the purpose of this race other than people putting on tiny bets and then watching to see who makes it back in one piece? Why do the fences have to be THAT enormous cars have to go THAT fast and why does there have to THAT many horses in the field cars on track for it to be entertaining? It all came across as a little barbaric today, is all..



see any entertainment fits in your rant can do it for soccer too if you want?

Not really the same thing though, given that humans choose to put their lives on the line when they participate in Formula 1 Racing or whatever. Horses don't choose to run in the Grand National. I don't mind horse racing (like the flat racing and all that), but it seems like the Grand National is particularly demanding. And all this, "Oh it's SUPPOSED to be a challenge" doesn't really fit when the horses aren't exactly choosing to take on the challenge. Is it really necessary to have fences that are almost bigger than the horses, or have forty horses in the field?

Da Shins Kelly

Snappy the Moose wrote: »

They can refuse to jump off. These horses are trained for this sport, they are not average horses just thrown into a race. You are probably seeing it as cruel due to a lack of knowledge.

They can refuse to jump off? Horses are flight animals, if one starts running, they all do. That's why they run in a tightly packed group, all together.

CoalBucket

well i won around €20 so it was all worth it

sunflower27

Oranage2 wrote: »

Only crimes against entertainment -

Horse racing is as boring if not more so than golf

WHAT!!!!

There is no comparison. Nothing is more boring than golf.

sollar

Nevore wrote: »

The horses don't get a choice though do they? A race driver can choose not to drive.

Neither does poor old daisy the cow but she likely to end up on a plate served with chips

orourkeda

Isn't animal cruelty wonderful?

I just won €200.

Hoorah for animal cruelty

Oranage2

baz2009 wrote: »

In your opinion.

i guess horses for courses so (pun intended)

Watching midgets ride horses just isnt my thing!

PeakOutput

Nevore wrote: »

The horses don't get a choice though do they? A race driver can choose not to drive.

of course they do look at the size of them first of all and secondly look at how they react when jockeys fall off they keep on running as long as they can with all the other horses

Snappy the Moose

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

They can refuse to jump off? Horses are flight animals, if one starts running, they all do. That's why they run in a tightly packed group, all together.

No, if a horse is not in the mood to run he will refuse. King John's Castle didn't jump off last year and he had 39 horses in front of him. That solves that argument really.

However, even if they do jump off and aren't travelling well they will be pulled up, a jockey (generally) wants to keep the horse safe just as much as anyone.

CoalBucket

Is there a betting market on how many horses would be put down ?

orourkeda

Like many forms of sports involving animals, the trainers and owers who are doing their jobs properly in the horse racing industry have their horses in the equine version of Buckingham Palace. To call the sport of kings barbaric is ill informed

landsleaving

I hate horse racing, so I feel strange defending it, but just gonna use some logic. Those horses are crazily expensive to own, breed, keep, feed, etc. Only rich people own them, and rich people want a return on their investment, that's why they're rich. If horses were likely to die or be injured during a race, they'd make the races less dangerous or pick a new sport to get even more rich from and have us poor schlubs bet on that instead.

Slattsy

I should start a thread 'cruelty to me' as i lost my proverbial nuts today !!

Coriolanus

Snappy the Moose wrote: »

They can refuse to jump off. These horses are trained for this sport, they are not average horses just thrown into a race. You are probably seeing it as cruel due to a lack of knowledge.

Nice snap judgement there Snappy. Where did I say I saw it as cruel?
I was refuting the comparison to F1 racing.

Da Shins Kelly

Snappy the Moose wrote: »

No, if a horse is not in the mood to run he will refuse. King John's Castle didn't jump off last year and he had 39 horses in front of him. That solves that argument really.

However, even if they do jump off and aren't travelling well they will be pulled up, a jockey (generally) wants to keep the horse safe just as much as anyone.

I am into horses, I have owned horses, I know that they are flight animals. The cases where the horses refuse to jump off are very rare incidents. If it was to be investigated as to why the horse refused to jump off, there is usually some reason behind it such as there being something off the course (the crowd, a stablemate, etc) that is distracting them or spooking them, so they don't jump off. Almost all of the time, the horse will jump off with the rest of them, regardless. Horses don't work independent of their instinct to run with the crowd, unless there is some other external influence that is stopping them.

I don't doubt for a second that the jockey wants to keep them safe, I'm just asking in the context of the Grand National, why does it have to be so exceedingly difficult for the animals - the height of the fences, the length of the race, the size of the field. It's asking for trouble, and half of the entertainment value seems to come from the fact that the horses do fall. I'm not disputing either how well treated the horses are when they're in the trainers' yards. I'm disputing the necessity of such an overwhelmingly difficult race, even if the horses are bred for racing (even though not all thoroughbreds are bred for racing).

KilOit

I'm all for banning it, i lost €100 on it today.

WolfForager

Ugh, what's with all the animal rights rabble? We're on top of the food chain in this world (there abouts), get over it.

Saila

ring joe he'll listen

Snappy the Moose

Nevore wrote: »

Nice snap judgement there Snappy. Where did I say I saw it as cruel?
I was refuting the comparison to F1 racing.

I thought I was talking to the OP sorry.

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I am into horses, I have owned horses, I know that they are flight animals. The cases where the horses refuse to jump off are very rare incidents. If it was to be investigated as to why the horse refused to jump off, there is usually some reason behind it such as there being something off the course (the crowd, a stablemate, etc) that is distracting them or spooking them, so they don't jump off. Almost all of the time, the horse will jump off with the rest of them, regardless. Horses don't work independent of their instinct to run with the crowd, unless there is some other external influence that is stopping them.

I don't doubt for a second that the jockey wants to keep them safe, I'm just asking in the context of the Grand National, why does it have to be so exceedingly difficult for the animals - the height of the fences, the length of the race, the size of the field. It's asking for trouble, and half of the entertainment value seems to come from the fact that the horses do fall. I'm not disputing either how well treated the horses are when they're in the trainers' yards. I'm disputing the necessity of such an overwhelmingly difficult race, even if the horses are bred for racing (even though not all thoroughbreds are bred for racing).

They are rare to an extent but your missing the point, the horse always has a chance not to run and even if he goes with the crowd as you are suggesting and doesn't want to run then the jockey will pull them up. It really is that simple. Most jockeys will know when a horse doesn't want to travel and will take appropriate action, they aren't trying to ware them into the ground.

The reason is because it is a challenge, just like a 26 mile marathon. It isn't necessary but it is a challenge.
Many horses finish it so it obviously isn't beyond difficult. If your issue is with horses not being able to handle the course or race than you should probably take that up with the trainer/owner who entered them.

Yakult

Would be alot more entertaining if the horses rode the jockeys, then I would watch that boring ****.

purity

People agitate me put the horse on their backs and lets see them race. I hate it the bull fighting matadors, cock fights, dog fighting. It's sound evil but I love it when the animal gets revenge when it gores the matador and when the horse stamps on the rider, it's their way of saying feck you:)

BickNarry

Snappy the Moose wrote: »

They can refuse to jump off. These horses are trained for this sport, they are not average horses just thrown into a race. You are probably seeing it as cruel due to a lack of knowledge.

Come off it, they're bred to race,trained for their whole lives. I think there's something sinister about the relationship there. What sort of quality of life is that?

We don't need horse racing. It's not vital for us to survive and it does more harm than good. I don't think anyone can argue that there is really a need for it. I think it's cruel to assume that animals are here for reasons we see fit. They exist in their own right. Two animals died and their death was preventable.Not a very funny topic like many here are making it out to be.

WolfForager wrote: »

Ugh, what's with all the animal rights rabble? We're on top of the food chain in this world (there abouts), get over it.

Non-argument.

artanevilla

landsleaving wrote: »

I hate horse racing, so I feel strange defending it, but just gonna use some logic. Those horses are crazily expensive to own, breed, keep, feed, etc. Only rich people own them, and rich people want a return on their investment, that's why they're rich. If horses were likely to die or be injured during a race, they'd make the races less dangerous or pick a new sport to get even more rich from and have us poor schlubs bet on that instead.

You don't get rich from horse racing, especially National Hunt. There's an old saying: "How do you make a million in National Hunt racing? Start with 10 million."

For example, Michael O'Leary might spend 5 million a year on racing, but comes out with 1 million maybe. (them figures mightn't be correct, but you get the point.)

Dudess

hoodwinked wrote: »

Formula 1 Watched it today and was a little bit shocked. Two horses cars were killed - one broke its back wing, the other its neck wheel. What exactly is the purpose of this race other than people putting on tiny bets and then watching to see who makes it back in one piece? Why do the fences have to be THAT enormous cars have to go THAT fast and why does there have to THAT many horses in the field cars on track for it to be entertaining? It all came across as a little barbaric today, is all..
see any entertainment fits in your rant can do it for soccer too if you want?

Cars and footballs are sentient?

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I did wonder how long it would take for this thread to appear.

So?

sollar wrote: »

Neither does poor old daisy the cow but she likely to end up on a plate served with chips

Food... sport - not the same thing.

WolfForager wrote: »

Ugh, what's with all the animal rights rabble? We're on top of the food chain in this world (there abouts), get over it.

Ugh, what's with the "I don't give a sh1t about animals, aren't I the hard man" rabble about?
Doubt there was cruelty, but lamenting this doesn't have to be met with the usual "Dur... you didn't like bad thing happening to animal, you is hippy" rubbish.

Spudmonkey

Lot of pretty ignorant comments here. Ruby Walsh described it as carnage and less than half the horses actually finished the race. The winner had to have oxygen supplied afterwards.

Anything for a bit of "sport" though I suppose.

FortuneChip

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Gladiator, Watched it today and was a little bit shocked. Two horses family members were killed - one broke its back, the other its neck. What exactly is the purpose of this race violence other than people putting on tiny bets hats & swords and then watching riding Maximus' wife to see who makes it back her maon in one piecego? Why do the fencesRomans have to be THAT enormous disrespectful of their General and why does there have to THAT many horses emotional music scenes in the fieldfilm for it to be entertaining? It all came across as a little barbaric today, is all..

Apologies

Morgans

only a dickhead would be indifferent to horses dying while racing. And most racing supporters have to reconcile the dangers/uglier side of things with the pleasure that comes from the sport.

While I'm thankful that the OP has not thrown out a lot of the tired animal welfare arguements surrounding the grand national, but I do think that the title of the thread is deliberately provocative.

Horse racing fans do not take any pleasure in seeing horses distressed, dying, falling. Its not run to cause cruelty to animals. Racehorses die, some while racing, plenty more when in training in stables unheralded, and plenty more from diseases related to old age.

It always amazes me though that the discussions of the dangers related to the grand national are done from a horse standpoint and never from the jockeys. Thought Patrick Mullins was very lucky to walk away from the fall today.

WolfForager

http://toychop.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/troll-face-meme.png

I genuinely dont care that much about animals. Plenty of other stuff going on in the world that is more important to me than a couple of horseys

BickNarry

Deleted User wrote: »

I genuinely dont care that much about animals. Plenty of other stuff going on in the world that is more important to me than a couple of horseys

A stunning contribution to the on going discussion.

Dudess

Morgans wrote: »

It always amazes me though that the discussions of the dangers related to the grand national are done from a horse standpoint and never from the jockeys. Thought Patrick Mullins was very lucky to walk away from the fall today.

Apparently there was huge upset over the horse's head in The Godfather, but not so much the endless human carnage... :pac:
To be fair though, it's understandable that many people's immediate emotional response to children and animals (those with no voice and who are powerless and vulnerable) being harmed is stronger than when adults are harmed - not saying it's right in the case of animals, but there's a logic to it.

Irrational as I think OTT concern for animal welfare can sometimes be though (e.g. someone being freaked over a pet not being let into the house even if they have a perfectly decent shelter and are otherwise well cared for) I hate when some folks proudly tell the world how totally indifferent they are to animals suffering. Bet they're not anyway...

claire2010

Deleted User wrote: »

I genuinely dont care that much about animals. Plenty of other stuff going on in the world that is more important to me than a couple of horseys

Animals hate you too!!!

PeakOutput

BickNarry wrote: »

t's not vital for us to survive and it does more harm than good.

what harm would that be exactly please?

BickNarry

Spinal injuries,shortened life spans, beaten with a whip....

The potential for harm is increased if they are race horses.

PeakOutput

BickNarry wrote: »

Spinal injuries,shortened life spans, beaten with a whip....

beaten with a whip, are you serious? do race horses have shorter lives then other horses? what spinal injuries would these be? horses are put down when they have any sort of serious injury arent they? so there is no increased suffering

The potential for harm is increased if they are race horses.

if there was no horse racing none of the horses would exist in the first place which is the lesser of two evils?

by the way I can probably count on one hand how many horse races I have watched ever i think its boring and only bet on it very very rarely but it is not even close to being cruelty to animals

landsleaving

Deleted User wrote: »

I genuinely dont care that much about animals. Plenty of other stuff going on in the world that is more important to me than a couple of horseys

I agree. They raised the price of something or other by three cents. Maybe we should go get angry about that and vent it on an internet forum?

Yay or Neigh?

landsleaving

artanevilla wrote: »

You don't get rich from horse racing, especially National Hunt. There's an old saying: "How do you make a million in National Hunt racing? Start with 10 million."

For example, Michael O'Leary might spend 5 million a year on racing, but comes out with 1 million maybe. (them figures mightn't be correct, but you get the point.)

Well that's me told! I must admit, I'm no expert, I just assumed they got a lot of cash out of it, but I suppose it's as much prestige as anything.

phasers

What happened with the winning horse anyway, he hed to be taken away and given Oxegen and water? wtf? Did yer man push him too hard? He was really bayting him with the stick toward the end.