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Irish Rail install new boundary along Newcastle/Kilcoole line (Wicklow)

  • 04-04-2011 11:21am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭


    I've enjoyed cycling a trail that runs alongside the rosslare line between Kilcoole and Newcastle for many years. This weekend I arrive to find most of it is now behind a new boundary that Irish rail had put up during the week :mad:. Apart from looking completely crap, its only going to encourage people to walk on the inside section of the rope as thats where the path is. Who makes these decisions, I was talking to the lads still working on it and they said planning is not needed?
    02042011880.jpg
    02042011878.jpg


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Perhaps they safety concerns?

    They could put up a pallisade fence that would spoil the amenity or they can do something lo-fi that shows the boundary and deter people from walking in close proximity of the track. I've walked that "wall" in the photo - the condition is very variable along the route.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    I spent the best part of twenty years birdwatching in this area and I can tell you that if I still did that fence would be cut down every time I visited. People need to make a stand. :mad:

    That railway has been running along there for 150 years or more and now it has suddenly becoming necessary to fence it off -ffs!!! I'm not talking about the rope fence or whatever but they are obviously intending to extend the existing new fence from the Wicklow direction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 889 ✭✭✭stop


    I walked the Newcastle to Greystones section a year or two ago while the anti-erosion works were going on (diggers working with rocks re-enforcing sea barriers etc). The construction guys had signs up saying "walkers turn back" "no access" etc. I just kept walking. Met an IÉ guy who told me to ignore the signs, that there was a right of way, and just to wave to the guys in the diggers so they'd see me and not squish me. Did as much.
    I can understand them wanting to keep people off the railway, but the only way along the coast is by using the railway bridges in places.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,258 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    A friend of mine who works on Permanent Way teams told me that there was to be work on some of the pathway soon; perhaps H+S eejits insist on it being cordoned off lest people get hurt etc. Rather silly if it's the case TBH


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭DubOnHoliday


    I doubt the rope fence will last very long. On a visit to the beach yesterday, some of the poles had already been pulled up.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    stop wrote: »
    I can understand them wanting to keep people off the railway, but the only way along the coast is by using the railway bridges in places.
    If the only way along the coast was a motorway bridge would you use that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    The two railway bridges on the stretch between Wicklow and Greystones have adequate boarded footwalks (?) and in the case of that at The Breaches there is visbility for miles in either direction. This is just more CIE/IE dicking about in an area of important ecological/recreational interest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    A friend of mine who works on Permanent Way teams told me that there was to be work on some of the pathway soon; perhaps H+S eejits insist on it being cordoned off lest people get hurt etc. Rather silly if it's the case TBH
    Liability is probably not "silly". Whose property is it anyhow? Last I recall, if it's railway property, then putting foot or cycle on it is trespassing and thereby an offence that puts one liable to prosecution. Funny that people demand this as though it's their right, and think to have a world-class railway service at the same time...if the trains ran at 200 km/h through this stretch (yes, it's technologically feasible no matter what the self-professed railway fanatics claim), would we be demanding our "path" as well?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭DubOnHoliday


    CIE wrote: »
    Liability is probably not "silly". Whose property is it anyhow? Last I recall, if it's railway property, then putting foot or cycle on it is trespassing and thereby an offence that puts one liable to prosecution. Funny that people demand this as though it's their right, and think to have a world-class railway service at the same time...if the trains ran at 200 km/h through this stretch (yes, it's technologically feasible no matter what the self-professed railway fanatics claim), would we be demanding our "path" as well?

    as you can see in my photo, the new boundard extends anywhere from 2 metres to 5 metres from the track, who decided the ownership of the line extended that far? And as I said already as most people stroll along the breakwater blocks, they'll be inside the rope boundary.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Nice overreaction CIE. Did you miss the reference to a right-of-way? Obviously higher separation requirements would require adjustments to the RoW if speeds were increased.

    JD - wasn't aware there were boardwalks on the bridges, which presumably are a continuation of said RoW?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    as you can see in my photo, the new boundary extends anywhere from 2 metres to 5 metres from the track, who decided the ownership of the line extended that far? And as I said already as most people stroll along the breakwater blocks, they'll be inside the rope boundary.
    The railway has been there for how long now? Since 1855? It ought to be clear for the 156 years of this railway's operation (including relocations due to coastal erosion) where the actual boundary is, even if it's necessary to get the boundary documents via FOIA means.
    dowlingm wrote: »
    Did you miss the reference to a right-of-way? Obviously higher separation requirements would require adjustments to the RoW if speeds were increased
    The "reference" was an anecdote, never mind the second-hand anecdotes being rather conflicting. And what adjustments? The track appears to be in sufficient condition for 100-mph running, and mini-CTC has been active on that section for three years AFAIR; besides, the trains don't exactly crawl down that direction as things stand.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Nice overreaction CIE. Did you miss the reference to a right-of-way? Obviously higher separation requirements would require adjustments to the RoW if speeds were increased.

    JD - wasn't aware there were boardwalks on the bridges, which presumably are a continuation of said RoW?

    Well in the case of The Breaches bridge, depending on the tide and what condition the sea has left the beach in, crossing the railway bridge is often the only way of continuing north or south. It's hard to explain but if you had walked the route you would understand. In all my years walking between Wicklow and Greystones I rarely saw people walking near the track - why would you when it's far easier to stick to the well trodden path or hop from block to block along the coastal defences. Any attempting to fence this area should be resisted. The only places where any danger might arise are at the accommodation crossings at Kilcoole and Newcastle and that can't be helped.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    CIE wrote: »
    Liability is probably not "silly". Whose property is it anyhow? Last I recall, if it's railway property, then putting foot or cycle on it is trespassing and thereby an offence that puts one liable to prosecution. Funny that people demand this as though it's their right, and think to have a world-class railway service at the same time...if the trains ran at 200 km/h through this stretch (yes, it's technologically feasible no matter what the self-professed railway fanatics claim), would we be demanding our "path" as well?

    Funny that people should think they have a right to walk along the foreshore without being caged in. It's a wonder CIE/IE haven't erected their beloved pallisade fencing along both sides of the line.

    PS Where's this world class rail service you refer to? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭DubOnHoliday


    CIE, whats with the hostile posting? As for the new rope boundary, the guys putting it up described it as Irish rail putting it there to test the water for objections.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Thank god tourism and transport have been put in the same department they might realise the potential of the railway corridors for this:

    New Picture.bmp


    Irish rail haven't got a bloody clue about tourism and what people want - I have walked the line from Greystones to Kilcoole on several occasions - it is an idea walk - the pic above shows what can be done, but we have no imagination.

    Just cut the bloody fence down.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    I will be packing my wire cutters the next time I walk the path. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    I will be packing my wire cutters the next time I walk the path. :D

    Photos please.:D


  • Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    When I see this I can only think back on the case in Limerick where some gouger went scutting on a cement (bubble) train, fell off and sued. IE got hammered as being liable because there was a wee bit of unfenced area near a level crossing in Ballinacurra .

    That was an incredibly wrong decision seeing as junior was trespassing but this must be at the back of the mind of the IE heads.

    It looks like a lovely walk.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Was that what happened to your back Des? :D


  • Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    Yer man lost a leg (or part thereof) David.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,258 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    I will be packing my wire cutters the next time I walk the path. :D

    Advocating criminal damage now, are we? ;)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    parsi wrote: »
    When I see this I can only think back on the case in Limerick where some gouger went scutting on a cement (bubble) train, fell off and sued. IE got hammered as being liable because there was a wee bit of unfenced area near a level crossing in Ballinacurra .

    That was an incredibly wrong decision seeing as junior was trespassing but this must be at the back of the mind of the IE heads.

    It looks like a lovely walk.

    This is 100% the reason. People want unimpeded access to the area in or around the railway and yet if something happens when they are there they are scrambling about looking to sue IE.

    Once again, another case of people wanting things both ways when it comes to IE.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Well I don't think that many people are going to be scutting on freight trains on the Greystones/Wicklow section - are they? How many incidents have there been on this stretch of line - none as far as I know. It is an area of high amenity value and, indeed, the whole coastal plain between Greystones and Wicklow should have long ago been given National Park status. Instead, the Wicklow industrial estate has been allowed to sprawl northwards towards Broad Lough. And. yes. Losty I am advocating law breaking if that's what it takes to protect this area of commonage. :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭DubOnHoliday


    The main issue for me is why they didn't just place the rope in a continuous line along the stone embankment, instead of zig-zag style, hence ruining the cycle path.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 Stringman


    It has nothing to do with the railway. Bird watch Ireland rope off the beach every year to stop people walking on the little tern nests in the stones, have beeen doing it for years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,537 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Stringman wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with the railway. Bird watch Ireland rope off the beach every year to stop people walking on the little tern nests in the stones, have beeen doing it for years.

    A simple notice on location to that effect would help immensely I reckon


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 Stringman


    They are prob only getting set up, they usually have a little caravan that wardons live in, and they fill in passers by. May and June are the main period of nesting, so I recon there prob just getting organised.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,258 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    A simple notice on location to that effect would help immensely I reckon

    Stupid idea; sure birds can't read :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 889 ✭✭✭stop


    Stringman wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with the railway. Bird watch Ireland rope off the beach every year to stop people walking on the little tern nests in the stones, have beeen doing it for years.
    http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Portals/0/pdfs/Little_Tern_poster.pdf

    According to this they put up an electric fence to keep predators out. They usually have the area covered in signs, even a chalkboard with updates on how all the nests are doing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭DubOnHoliday


    its not the annual little tern cordon which is located on both sides adjacent to the breeches.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Stringman wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with the railway. Bird watch Ireland rope off the beach every year to stop people walking on the little tern nests in the stones, have beeen doing it for years.

    The rope has nothing to do with Birdwatch Ireland's Little Tern conservation programme: http://littletern.webs.com/ and the location of the fence is nowhere near the colony which would not be active yet anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    JD thanks for that I visit Greystones quite often and I had never come across this project. I reckon IE are just acting the maggot to try and fence off the railway - I have walked that line for years, used to fish down near the old railway mens hut on the south beach just beyond the river about a mile down from the station back in the 1970s - lot more fish there then too. it was right old hall with half a gallon of ginger beer, 20 cheese sambos and a beachcaster. Worth it though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Jeez westtip - it sure is a small world. I used to eat my egg and sardine sandwiches at the hut on the south end of the Breaches bridge. The beach along there was great for fishing - caught loads of Mackerel (and bloody dogfish) over the years. Good old CIE/IE, if there's a way to fxxx something up they'll find it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Jeez westtip - it sure is a small world. I used to eat my egg and sardine sandwiches at the hut on the south end of the Breaches bridge. The beach along there was great for fishing - caught loads of Mackerel (and bloody dogfish) over the years. Good old CIE/IE, if there's a way to fxxx something up they'll find it.

    Never caught mackerel off that point - off howth pier yes, and even off the malahide viaduct - used to fish that in the 1970s when you could just saunter down from the station. Lots of small codling, pollack and yes dogfish off the beach near the railway hut back in the 70s - beach fishermen at Greystones tell me its just a day out from the wife these days, but it was a mighty spot for beachcasting 35 years ago - there was something about the way the beach shelved at that point in particular.

    I think I might of used one of your left behind sandwiches for bait one day - might good stuff. Me and my fishing mate used to shelter in that shed when the rain was driving in from the mountains and out to sea. There always seemed to be about 3 or 4 workers brewing up there at anytime during the day, they often gave us a cup of tea - I don't think much work was done. So somethings haven't actually changed.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭DubOnHoliday


    On visiting the breaches area yesterday, a lot of the new poles have been pulled up already.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    good the peoples revolution - surprise Sky news not there with a 24 hour presence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    "People's revolution" or disrespect for rule of law? The way such things have turned out, it seems to invariably be the latter.

    Anyone find the true property line? How fast would the guards scoop you up if you were walking adjacent to a motorway...?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    If people are walking along the concrete section rather than along the shore, it seems rather too close to the railway line. I can see why Iarnród Éireann might be considering fencing the line off.

    It isn't as if our railway network is free of incidents involving people, animals or objects ending up on the railway line with a train coming along. The attitudes expressed in the thread here are typical of the attitudes responsible for things not being done properly in this country.

    Certainly it should perhaps be the case that a public pathway be installed alongside the railway, but I would have expected it would have to be further from the tracks than the existing concrete in the photos. That is what any concerned posters should be lobbying about, rather than lobbying for a right to walk right alongside an operational railway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Zoney - this isn't inner city Dublin or Limerick where scumbags loiter, drinking and stoning trains, it is a relatively remote area of outstanding natural beauty and a sensitive ecological zone which needs the least human disturbance possible. I have never heard of any incident on this stretch of line and save for the two bridges - both short and with long distance visibility - the walkers are not too close to the railway. From a birdwatchers point of view it is essential to be able to cross from the beach to the marsh areas unimpeded. CIE can go taking a running jump...


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  • Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    Zoney - this isn't inner city Dublin or Limerick where scumbags loiter, drinking and stoning trains, it is a relatively remote area of outstanding natural beauty and a sensitive ecological zone which needs the least human disturbance possible. I have never heard of any incident on this stretch of line and save for the two bridges - both short and with long distance visibility - the walkers are not too close to the railway. From a birdwatchers point of view it is essential to be able to cross from the beach to the marsh areas unimpeded. CIE can go taking a running jump...

    Outstanding Natural Beauty on the East Coast ? Nah.

    /nasty dig about the litigious scutters on the line out to Mungret.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 889 ✭✭✭stop


    CIE wrote: »

    Anyone find the true property line? How fast would the guards scoop you up if you were walking adjacent to a motorway...?

    "You wouldn't download a car...."


    Motorways are relatively new, generations have not had an unimpeded path alongside them only to suddenly find one day that a shoddy excuse for a fence has popped up mostly alongside the path, but several times crossing it for no good reason.

    Wicklow CoCo are planning to develop the coastal path between Greystones and Wicklow Town. Source

    The vast majority of people have no problem with a fence alongside the railway which in addition to the signposts every 20m (what recession!) will remind people that walking on the railway can be fatal.

    What people have a problem with is the manner in which this fence has been erected, not always in a straight line, but zig zagging across the path (likely due to those who put the poles into the ground encountering rock underneath the surface at some points).

    I walked it at the weekend and met well over a hundred people along the way. Unless IE plan on a costly CCTV installation, or wasting Garda time having them walk it, they would be wise to tidy the fence to the side of the railway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Interesting post Stop but I wouldn't hold my breath while I wait for Wicklow Co.Council to develop anything. That said, the entire coastal strip between Wicklow and Greystones is a sensitive ecological area and 'developing' it i.e. encouraging pedestrian traffic through the provision of additional car parking, picnic areas etc is seriously misguided IMO - this is not Brittas Bay. There are plenty of other places for a good walk in County Wicklow without encouraging every man and his dog into this area - especially during the breeding season for seabirds.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭DubOnHoliday


    I see some clown decided to pull up a lot of the spikes on the newcastle side of the railway bridge, and left them flat on the ground. It was bad enough the boundary, but now I've 3 foot long metal spikes to avoid on the bike!!!
    KK_Newc3.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    It wasn't me. I would have buried the evidence. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,346 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Railway Gazette 02 May 2011: Magnetic separation
    SAFETY: The use of temporary fences to protect worksites is becoming more common, as railways come under pressure to keep busy lines open during maintenance and upgrading work. Such fences are typically secured to spikes driven into the ground or clipped to adjacent tracks.

    The RSS magnetic safety fence is very simply and quickly attached to the web of the nearest running rail using magnets with a tensile force up to 600 kg/N. Each L-shaped galvanised steel stanchion is kinked around the rail fastening to rest on a sleeper, which thus carries the weight of the fence and ensures an even spacing of the supports at around 3 m intervals. Lightweight aluminium or plastic poles in 4 m sections with quick-locking insulated joints are clipped to the uprights to complete the fence. Removal is just as quick, as the stanchions can be lifted to twist the magnet away from the rail.

    RSS has designed a trailer-mounted transport frame which can carry components for 1440 m of fence. The system was approved by safety authorities in the Netherlands last year, and it is currently being tested by TÜV for use in Germany.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭Pineapple stu


    I've enjoyed cycling a trail that runs alongside the rosslare line between Kilcoole and Newcastle for many years. This weekend I arrive to find most of it is now behind a new boundary that Irish rail had put up during the week :mad:. Apart from looking completely crap, its only going to encourage people to walk on the inside section of the rope as thats where the path is. Who makes these decisions, I was talking to the lads still working on it and they said planning is not needed?
    02042011880.jpg
    02042011878.jpg

    it looks like the fence was put there for the public saftey . If you walk or cycle along that bit in the top pic you would be classed as being lineside and be a danger to yourself . Im suprised that a higher wall hasnt been built along that stretch as kid or anyone playing on that beach could run or walk into the path of an oncoming train whilst fetching something that went on the line. If that happened, Irish Rail would be the big bad monster and people on here would be up in arms demanding answers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    The line has been like that for 150+ years and I've never heard of any incidents along it - try reading the thread before posting. Also you obviously don't know the stretch of line or you wouldn't have mentioned cycling from block to block which would be impossible.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,287 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The line has been like that for 150+ years and I've never heard of any incidents along it - try reading the thread before posting. Also you obviously don't know the stretch of line or you wouldn't have mentioned cycling from block to block which would be impossible.

    It has but to be fair the 22k trains are far quieter than any train that has run along that line - it's quite easy not to hear them if they are coming from behind until they are beside you (emphasis on beside!!).

    I imagine that's part of the reason for this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It has but to be fair the 22k trains are far quieter than any train that has run along that line - it's quite easy not to hear them if they are coming from behind until they are beside you (emphasis on beside!!).

    I imagine that's part of the reason for this.

    Yes, but as has been said before, people do not walk along the railway line as it is far easier underfoot on the path or from block to block in places. CIE/IE already treat areas of outstanding beauty such as the Bray/Greystones section with little respect for the environment, and they shouldn't be allowed to in this case.


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