Domain Registar Extortion

CptSternn

I was wondering if anyone knew of the Irish law that would encompass domain registration, or if any existed currently.

I ask for this reason - I have a client who has a domain and the current registrar refuses to allow a domain transfer.

I know under ICANN rules they can be caught out, and we can get a solicitor to sue for lost revenue due to the website being down, but are there any other laws regarding this in Ireland?

I'll omit the company name for now and just give a few more details...

I was hired to work on a website for a company here in Ireland. The current website was hacked, due to lack of security on the current host. Hackers were able to use cross site scripting in some default javascript files that were placed by default in the web root folder. The sad thing is, the client didn't even use those files but since the host copied these files to all new web folders they existed and led to the site being compromised.

The client rang the company (the registrar and host are the same company) and complained about this. The company then said they won't touch the design without a design contract, and unless the client was willing to pay them for a design contract there was nothing they could do for them.

Thats when I was brought in. I was able to find the issue, fix it and a few other issues and set them up on servers I host myself. When we then tried to transfer the domain we found it was locked and we need the authorisation code.

The client has rang a half dozen times. I have personally rang three times. We have sent a dozen emails and opened three tickets with their support team all asking for the authorisation code. I figured they are either the thickest chuckleheads ever (I doubt it), or they were just trying to stall for time until the hosting contract was up.

Turns out it was both - they still are playing thick and after three weeks of almost daily calls and emails they still have yet to send the authorisation code. They sent FTP login info, web interface login info, a screen shot of the current registrar information, an an assortment of emails asking us why we are unhappy and wish to leave their company.

During this three week period the hosting contract expired and now they want more money and have yet to give us the code, so we are at the point where we think it is time to involve a solicitor, which is why I was posting here.

Any information anyone might have about laws concering this would be helpful. We are going to file a complaint with ICANN, and based on the circumstances themselves ( ie. the company is directly causing loss of revenue due to the fact the site is down and they won't let us transfer it), we know we have a case, but were hoping there were some more specific laws that address the issue we could use for our filings.

Thanks in advance.

Seth Brundle

.ie or something else?
Has your client spoken with a solicitor?

Boskonay

If the domain registrar are a reseller of someone like Enom, etc, you can try go 'over their heads' directly to the actual registar of record.

Also, if it's a .ie, things are much simpler.

More detail will allow better advice.

CptSternn

It's a .COM and the company is based here in Ireland. I checked the registrar record and my client is listed as the owner as well as all of the other contacts for the domain.

I told him today to start looking for a solicitor, as he is losing money daily because of this.

Boskonay

If you want to check the WHOIS for the domain, it will show where the domain is actually registered.

If your client is the registrant, then they should have full control directly with the registrar.

cormee

In the meantime get the .ie

CptSternn

Boskonay wrote: »

If you want to check the WHOIS for the domain, it will show where the domain is actually registered.

If your client is the registrant, then they should have full control directly with the registrar.

I know exactly who it is registered to, and I know where it is actually registered.

I also know I am supposed to have full control, the problem is, the current host/registrar will not relinquish control.

CptSternn

cormee wrote: »

In the meantime get the .ie

That was my first suggestion, but the client likes the .COM, it is a good short one, and more importantly it comes up first in many Google searches for the service they provide, not to mention they are listed and reviewed on dozens of websites meaning it would have to be updated in many places and would take some time for it to rebound in the Google ranks.

Boskonay

If your client is the registrant on teh whois record, and the admin? they can regain control without too much trouble...

CptSternn

Boskonay wrote: »

If your client is the registrant on teh whois record, and the admin? they can regain control without too much trouble...

No, that is the problem. The current registrar refuses to make changes, they will not let us transfer the domain. Forget who is listed as the admin, if the current registrar refuses to let you change and or transfer the domain, you find yourself in the position I am in now.

I own about 120 domains currently, and have seen this before, but it is the first time I have found an Irish company trying this.

CptSternn

Just a quick follow up -

After weeks of trouble, phone calls, and emails we finally threatened the company in question with legal action. We estimated that the site being down had cost my client upwards of €7,500 - which we told them and said we would be seeking compensation if the situation was not remedied within 24 hours.

Less than 30 minutes later we received the authorisation code via email.

It's sad it had to come down to that, just to transfer a domain.

Thanks for the replies.

worc

Not really my business but just out of curiosity are you guys going to pursue them for that amount or leave it off? If that €7,500 was even a "worst case" estimate and it had definitely even cost me €500 I'd be pursuing them for it, especially in this climate. A site being down for long periods can be damaging in search engine eyes so it could have had as yet "unknown" damages.

The fact's are they were not in a legal position to hold that domain to ransom like they did because if they were they still wouldn't have given you the code - I'd be taking it farther, but glad to hear you got that sorted.

Seth Brundle

worc wrote: »

Not really my business but just out of curiosity are you guys going to pursue them for that amount or leave it off? If that €7,500 was even a "worst case" estimate and it had definitely even cost me €500 I'd be pursuing them for it, especially in this climate. A site being down for long periods can be damaging in search engine eyes so it could have had as yet "unknown" damages.

You would probably spend as much trying to claim it back!

worc wrote: »

The fact's are they were not in a legal position to hold that domain to ransom like they did because if they were they still wouldn't have given you the code - I'd be taking it farther, but glad to hear you got that sorted.

In fairness (and with no disrespect to the OP), we probably don't know the full story (as with most online stories) and it is one side of a coin. The other party would be likely to claim that they were in the right, etc.

worc

If I was keeping my accounts on the business and could prove a steady income or income trend and this domain malarky lead to a €7,500 gap in those trends it wouldn't be that difficult. Getting €7,500 back during the same time period (3 weeks I think was it?) that's €2,500 a week...can't see the issue in considering following it up and it's not like it's actually going to take 3 weeks 5 days a week.

Maybe I'm just not the type to let things like that go - but I think there's too much of that type of "Irishness" in businesses...the "sure chance your arm" crap and you have people like the OP then getting shafted over it. I know you mentioned we don't know the full story but how much of a story can there be about trying to get a domain moved... Sounds like a cowboy operation who needs a poker inserted where the sun don't shine in the form of a bill for damages.

Seth Brundle

worc wrote: »

If I was keeping my accounts on the business and could prove a steady income or income trend and this domain malarky lead to a €7,500 gap in those trends it wouldn't be that difficult. Getting €7,500 back during the same time period (3 weeks I think was it?) that's €2,500 a week...can't see the issue in considering following it up and it's not like it's actually going to take 3 weeks 5 days a week.

Maybe I'm just not the type to let things like that go - but I think there's too much of that type of "Irishness" in businesses...the "sure chance your arm" crap and you have people like the OP then getting shafted over it. I know you mentioned we don't know the full story but how much of a story can there be about trying to get a domain moved... Sounds like a cowboy operation who needs a poker inserted where the sun don't shine in the form of a bill for damages.

1. how many days does the companys staff spend on retreiving the money (calls, letters talking to solicitors, etc.) and how much does this cost?
2. How much time will the solicitor spend on it and what will this cost?
3. On the assumption that it goes to court (which could be a long time away), will you need a barrister and what will they charge?
4. When the judge asks you to prove that you are out of pocket of €7,500 and to prove that it was the other side's fault, can you prove this?
5. On the possibiltiy that you win, are you sure that you will get the 7.5k back (the judge may find it 50:50 for example)?
6. What happens if you lose?
7. What happens if the other company goes out of business, etc? Have they even got the 7.5k to pay back?
8. What if the other company counter sued for slander or libel because they were accused of being the cause of the hacking?

In fairness, sometimes its better to walk away with your head down rather than push for a fight because you know yourself to be in the right.

worc

All you've done is list reasons to take crap and never to stand up for yourself. You don't just blindly go into something like this so your list of "what if's" isn't really all that relevant - what if I walk outside and get hit by a bus...well I'll just keep my eyes open. It's pretty straight forward, you have your records showing standard income, you have all the evidence in emails that they were not handing over the domain for that period of time. Bring said evidence to solicitor, worst case you get charged €200 which you write off against tax as a legitimate business expense so it doesn't effect your net income. This couldn't be more cut and dry.

So right if you have a business premises in a town and the landlord illegally decides to lock the place up preventing you from getting your equipment/products etc. from it so you can't take them to another shop and run your business, you would suggest that you should just accept that your business was effectively closed illegally? No chance. Why is it different with a website?

In fairness, walking away is why companies chance their arms and do this sort of thing in the first place.

Seth Brundle

I think that you are intentionally misinterpreting what I posted but it doesn't bother me anyhow.

worc

kbannon wrote: »

I think that you are intentionally misinterpreting what I posted but it doesn't bother me anyhow.

I'd like some clarification on that please - how am I intentionally misinterpreting what you said?

You listed reasons why you shouldn't bother chase down a business who illegally cost another business €7,500 and those reasons in my opinion are the ones I've heard a few times about various different things like employers who bully their employees. No one stands up for themselves so it always continues. Your list is a list of fearful reasons to accept a crap service, sitting in fear like that is why it continues and that hosting company will probably try the same nonsense with someone else in the future.

Having lived in other european countries and having friends their who have been to Ireland they are all amazed at the Irish attitude to getting crap service, i.e. "sure it's grand". No wonder we're in the sh*t now - we put up with such crap and just accept it.

Seth Brundle

You were interpreting it as a way of taking crap rather than investing time and effort into somehting that possibly would not be a positive move for a business.

You are ignoring my point that we don't know the full details of this case - we only know one side. As with many threads like this one, the OP may not have given us the full details.

Secondly, pursuing a sum like 7.5k can often cost much the same rendering it a win strictly speaking but given the time and effort involved, a loss.

Also you are not privvy to the contract between the host and the OPs client. How do you know whether something done was illegal and caused the OPs client to lose out?

The original advice to contact a solicitor was the best advice that we could offer but that doesn't necessarily advise taking it any further (a good solicitor would have offered this advice). For all we know, the host we completely in the right but didn't want the hassle of having to engage a solicitor for the sake of a domain name.

mneylon

CptSternn wrote: »

No, that is the problem. The current registrar refuses to make changes, they will not let us transfer the domain. Forget who is listed as the admin, if the current registrar refuses to let you change and or transfer the domain, you find yourself in the position I am in now.

That's not entirely true

The registrar has to release the domain. It sounds like you may have been dealing with a reseller of one of the registrars

CptSternn wrote: »

I own about 120 domains currently, and have seen this before, but it is the first time I have found an Irish company trying this.

We are the only Irish ICANN accredited registrar, which is why I suspect you've been dealing with a reseller

CptSternn

Blacknight wrote: »

That's not entirely true

The registrar has to release the domain. It sounds like you may have been dealing with a reseller of one of the registrars

We are the only Irish ICANN accredited registrar, which is why I suspect you've been dealing with a reseller

I don't want to post the name as I don't want to get into a personal attack on a company here, those tend to get threads locked, but in the WHOIS information it clearly states at the top...

Registration Service Provided By: XXX
Contact: +353.1XXX
Website: http://www.XXX.ie

*XXX = the companies name who I am dealing with which isn't Blacknight

Do resellers get that added to their WHOIS listings as well? If so and they actually are just a reseller, then what real difference is there?

Mellor

How were you (or the company) extorted?

Boskonay

You can tell from the WHOIS who the actual registrar are.

In the Irish market, the ICANN 'top level' people are Blacknight and Register365, all the others resell from the likes of Enom.com, OpenSRS, Directi and others.

As long as your contact details are listed as the registrant (ie: the owner) you can do up a level to the registrar direct and deal with them in most cases, or have them intervene on your behalf with their customer (the reseller).

IamtheWalrus

I work for one of the largest domain registration companies in the UK and I haven't got a clue.

mneylon

CptSternn wrote: »

I don't want to post the name as I don't want to get into a personal attack on a company here, those tend to get threads locked, but in the WHOIS information it clearly states at the top...

Registration Service Provided By: XXX
Contact: +353.1XXX
Website: http://www.XXX.ie

*XXX = the companies name who I am dealing with which isn't Blacknight

Do resellers get that added to their WHOIS listings as well? If so and they actually are just a reseller, then what real difference is there?

The resellers are often listed in WHOIS, but you'll see the actual registrar at the very top.
For example:

whois mneylon.com

Whois Server Version 2.0

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

   Domain Name: MNEYLON.COM
   Registrar: BLACKNIGHT INTERNET SOLUTIONS LTD
   Whois Server: whois.blacknight.com
   Referral URL: http://www.blacknight.com
   Name Server: NS.BLACKNIGHTSOLUTIONS.COM
   Name Server: NS2.BLACKNIGHTSOLUTIONS.COM
   Status: clientTransferProhibited
   Updated Date: 01-jul-2010
   Creation Date: 04-sep-2000
   Expiration Date: 04-sep-2019

>>> Last update of whois database: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 08:13:14 UTC <<<

Further down you'd have all the contact details etc., which is often where the reseller gets mentioned.

testicle

Boskonay wrote: »

You can tell from the WHOIS who the actual registrar are.

In the Irish market, the ICANN 'top level' people are Blacknight and Register365, all the others resell from the likes of Enom.com, OpenSRS, Directi and others.

As long as your contact details are listed as the registrant (ie: the owner) you can do up a level to the registrar direct and deal with them in most cases, or have them intervene on your behalf with their customer (the reseller).

Didn't Register365 lose their ICANN accreditation for non-payment of bills?

Oh wait, you mean the Italian company NamesCo's one?

edanto

As interesting a discussion as that might be, by mentioning it, you're risking getting the thread locked.

So by editing your post to get rid of those company specific details, we might all learn something from the discussion of the OPs problem.

On that problem - is it correct that the OP could have gone to Blacknight for them to overrule the problematic reseller? OP - was the troublesome company in the Irish market? Does that matter?

mneylon

edanto wrote: »

On that problem - is it correct that the OP could have gone to Blacknight for them to overrule the problematic reseller?

Not exactly (unless the reseller was one of ours)
We could have assisted them in getting the domains away from the reseller IF the domains were correctly registered etc., If they were registered with the reseller's details only it is much messier

edanto wrote: »

OP - was the troublesome company in the Irish market? Does that matter?

Apart from making it easier to take a civil action against them that shouldn't really matter

CptSternn

Ok, an update.

I posted a review of the company in question on Yelp as to warn others about their business.

I then found another user yesterday who is having the EXACT same issue.

They emailed me and I told them what I did. I also pointed them to this thread.

A couple things I wanted to ask here -

First, BlackNight, you said ye are the only registrar in Ireland. Check this domain listing and tell me then why is this company listed as the registrar if ye are the only registrar in Ireland.

http://whois.domaintools.com/fivexs.com

Second, if you look at that listing you will see the person in question who is having the issue is hosting with you right now. Would you be able to help out here in anyway? If this company is a reseller as you say, then would they not be working for you as a reseller?

Just curious, thanks for having a look!

Oh, and in case anyone is interested here is my review:

http://www.yelp.ie/biz/web-world-ireland-tallaght#hrid:EfnJ93j1w3lNvJBdRHfQHw/src:self

I didn't want this thread to descend into name dropping and what not, but at this point it appears it is endemic to the company in question and they should be named. Besides, they already are getting blasted on other ORM (review) websites so why not just say it here.

Web World Ireland is a shady operation that needs to be avoided.

jmcc

CptSternn wrote: »

Check this domain listing and tell me then why is this company listed as the registrar if ye are the only registrar in Ireland.

http://whois.domaintools.com/fivexs.com

The registrar of record on that domain is

Domain Name: FIVEXS.COM
   Registrar: DIRECTI INTERNET SOLUTIONS PVT. LTD. D/B/A PUBLICDOMAINREGISTRY.COM
   Whois Server: whois.PublicDomainRegistry.com
   Referral URL: http://www.PublicDomainRegistry.com
   Name Server: NS1.BLACKNIGHT.COM
   Name Server: NS2.BLACKNIGHT.COM
   Status: clientDeleteProhibited
   Status: clientHold
   Status: clientTransferProhibited
   Status: clientUpdateProhibited
   Updated Date: 01-jun-2011
   Creation Date: 23-nov-2009
   Expiration Date: 23-nov-2011

The registrar is Directi.com. Blacknight.com is just providing the nameservers. There is a big difference between an ICANN accredited registrar and a reseller.

Regards...jmcc

CptSternn

Ok so they are a reseller then for PublicDomainRegistry.

http://whois.domaintools.com/fivexs.com

http://www.whois.net/whois/fivexs.com

Some whois results just seem to post:

Registration Service Provided By: WEB WORLD IRELAND

Good to know though. Maybe we should contact PublicDomainRegistry directly then.