Problems in the Politics Forum

Wolfe Tone

Personally I think that once the threads on anything republican descend into us all running down the same road as before the offending posts and posters should be redirected to a "superthread" where we can all debate away to our hearts content without putting off posters.

Thats a fair compromise I feel, thoughts?

liah

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Personally I think that once the threads on anything republican descend into us all running down the same road as before the offending posts and posters should be redirected to a "superthread" where we can all debate away to our hearts content without putting off posters.

Thats a fair compromise I feel, thoughts?

I'd say that's a good compromise, especially considering the style. Keep it to topical superthreads and it should keep everyone happy, as long as it stops seeping into the rest of the topics and other forums.

RDM_83 again

liah wrote: »

Throwing around terms like 'brainwashed' and 'making idiots of themselves' and other generally belittling and divisive comments isn't strengthening the Republican case much.

Probably going to get lambasted for this, but here goes.

I read the Politics forum every day but have never bothered participating because of attitudes like the above. It's not an inviting environment when there's the possibility that you'll be branded 'brainwashed' simply because you disagree with someone's opinion. I've got a sense of the American-style Republicanism seeping through, the general vitriolic "let's put the ideas and people who believe in them down using sarcastic quips and thinly-veiled insults without making an actual point" slipping through to other parts of the boards, too.

Just my 2c.

I'm confused was FlutterinBantam not referring to Republican posters as being immature and somewhat brainwashed individuals to making idiots of themselves cos thats what I got from the post, and if thats notbranding people I don't know what is.

I also feel that when discussing Northern Irish politics certain posters should realise the fact that, yes there's going to be a lot of pro-SF/Republican posts, like it or not they are the 2nd largest party in the province!

liah

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'm confused was FlutterinBantam not referring to Republican posters as being immature and somewhat brainwashed individuals to making idiots of themselves cos thats what I got from the post, and if thats notbranding people I don't know what is.

I also feel that when discussing Northern Irish politics certain posters should realise the fact that, yes there's going to be a lot of pro-SF/Republican posts, like it or not they are the 2nd largest party in the province!

Flut is involved in a lot of political threads with a very particular style, and from everything I can gather he's firmly planted in the 'staunch Republican' camp and was making a sarcastic comment in response to the quote. Either that, or in the rest of the threads he was taking the piss and in this one he's being genuine: if the latter is the case, then I apologize, but I have a feeling he's not.

RDM_83 again

Also like to point out like Soldie, I do not post often but I do check through the politics forum everyday.

On a different note, something needs to be done to invigorate the EU politics forum very little traffic there (even though it is probably the most informative part of the politics forums)

Wolfe Tone

liah wrote: »

Flut is involved in a lot of political threads with a very particular style, and from everything I can gather he's firmly planted in the 'staunch Republican' camp and was making a sarcastic comment in response to the quote. Either that, or in the rest of the threads he was taking the piss and in this one he's being genuine: if the latter is the case, then I apologize, but I have a feeling he's not.

You must have confused Irish Republicanism and American.

RDM_83 again

26-10-2010, 08:30 #71
FlutterinBantam
Registered User


Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Horsehead Nebula
Posts: 10,791
Adverts | Friends The electorate isnot totally stupid.

Allowing SF anywhere the levers of power would be like giving a group of 16 year old joyriders the keys of a Porche Carrera.

Nobody likes to see people being duplicitous,on one hand condemning a crime and on the other hand being involved in the propagation of crime.

Just doesn't square the circle.

Some of those idealists however, whose agenda clouds their judgment quite a bit,tend to overlook all this stuff


Last edited by FlutterinBantam; 26-10-2010 at 08:40.

Thanks from: Denerick

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68688162

I'm fairly sure thats not a SF supporter talking

Also a clue would be Permabear thanking his posts

liah

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You must have confused Irish Republicanism and American.

Which is easy to do lately, given the rhetoric similarities. Are they not similar in their basic tenents? Their beliefs seem to be, once you leave out the history lessons and focus on Ireland as is. And in general ideology, one does not have to be SF to be Republican; ideology is a pretty international concept.

Anyway, fair enough, I've misconstrued some of Flut's stuff, but it doesn't change what I said at all. I don't appreciate the way he belittles people and viewpoints in order to make his point. It chases people away, and the quality of debate goes down, and here we are as a result.

Frankly, I don't care who's doing it, Republican, Liberal, Libertarian or what have you. It has no place in rational debate.

Wolfe Tone

liah wrote: »

Which is easy to do lately, given the rhetoric similarities. Are they not similar in their basic tenents? Their beliefs seem to be, once you leave out the history lessons and focus on Ireland as is. And in general ideology, one does not have to be SF to be Republican; ideology is a pretty international concept.

Anyway, fair enough, I've misconstrued some of Flut's stuff, but it doesn't change what I said at all. I don't appreciate the way he belittles people and viewpoints in order to make his point. It chases people away, and the quality of debate goes down, and here we are as a result.

Frankly, I don't care who's doing it, Republican, Liberal, Libertarian or what have you. It has no place in rational debate.

Irish republicanism and socialism are inseparably linked, flutt aint no lefty! :P


So Irish republicanism is nothing like american.


I agree it has no place tbh, and try not to do it myself.

liah

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Irish republicanism and socialism are inseparably linked, flutt aint no lefty! :P


So Irish republicanism is nothing like american.

From what I've seen of Irish people who label themselves Republican, they tend to take very conservative views in a similar fashion to American Republicanism, and the rhetoric is similar. In fairness, you can't really fault me for using the wrong term, I'm not Irish, don't know every single political party, and I can only go off of what Irish people tell me. Labeling things isn't my strong suit.

It really doesn't matter what word I used, anyway: everything I said should apply across the board. This nitpicking is missing the spirit of what I'm saying and is kind of what I'm talking about..

Wolfe Tone

liah wrote: »

From what I've seen of Irish people who label themselves Republican, they tend to take very conservative views in a similar fashion to American Republicanism, and the rhetoric is similar. In fairness, you can't really fault me for using the wrong term, I'm not Irish, don't know every single political party, and I can only go off of what Irish people tell me. Labeling things isn't my strong suit.

It really doesn't matter what word I used, anyway: everything I said should apply across the board. This nitpicking is missing the spirit of what I'm saying and is kind of what I'm talking about..

It doesnt really matter I agree and you made good points. If you want to start a thread about the differences between the two I would be delighted to contribute.

So sorry about that, I just thought flutt being called a republican was funny

stovelid

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Care to elaborate on this point? Examples perhaps? I dont see this at all.

What I'm alluding to should be fairly obvious to anybody that reads the forum regularly even if they disagree with my interpretation of it. I can go back and find the threads if required but in this case, the old exhortation for elaboration/links appears to be a sixth-form debating exercise designed to belittle what I'm (informally) suggesting or worse: just buying time in lieu of a considered answer.

As for the anti-republican thing mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I certainly am a trenchant opponent of SF/IRA but it has little bearing on this: I would be irritated by the same scenario if it was on behalf of any other political interest. I would also think my posting history in all forums - including politics when I posted there - shows I try to address the issue reasonably despite the usual catcalls of neo-unionist and west-Brit reserved for democratic critics of armed Republicanism based in or from Ireland.

The only similar thing I can think of - while not wanting to provoke a row with another group - is cycling. There seemed to be a time once where any negative mention of cyclists drew a cavalry response from enthusiasts who appear to gang up on threads on a few occasions. Again: not against the rules as such but not really in the spirit of things is it?

Like I said, I have no wish to oppose discussion anywhere and the line between people of shared interests defending a viewpoint and what is comes across as a kind of premeditated idealogical shilling is very fine and even harder to police.

Just my few cents worth.

Wolfe Tone

A far as I can see from a republican position is that there is simply a group of people who have a shared interest who like to post in similar treads, thats all there is to it.

FlutterinBantam

Now that's what you would LIKE people to think.

Just harmless lads who think similarly.:rolleyes:

Let's get it straight pal, I see a concerted effort to promulgate SF agenda wherever possible using the Boards.ie as the conduit.

Now I don't want to contribute any more to this thread as I feel it should not be hogged by 'the usuals'.

As another poster said, let others come in and judge, but you are not getting away with the 'lads who think similarly' ploy.

Give us some respect for knowing what is going on.

Nodin

starbelgrade wrote: »

That never ends well.

It's better to discuss general problems in forums without turning them into a witch hunt in my opinion.

It would seem we've an effort to turn this into a witchunt after all.

#15

There are a few reasons why I don't post in the politics forum.

- Snide, condescending and arseholey comments. It's just not worth the hassle (although I see not even this thread is spared from those comments). On occasion, I've found myself getting dragged into the same style of posting. I prefer to stay away from that.

- The Irish Economy forum. It needs to be moderated in a much stricter fashion, or preferably, discarded completely. It's probably the worst forum on boards. AH threads are more informative than Irish Economy threads, which are usually fact-free zones.
That's no reflection on the mods btw, who all do a sterling job IMO.

- The genuine malice and bitterness towards certain people or sections of society. There is a considerable cohort of idiotic posters who post random anecdotes and use it as justification for their prejudices. However, what I find much worse than those idiots is the way that genuinely intelligent posters try to conceal their prejudices with a selective reporting of facts. They influence and encourage, possibly unknowingly, the aforementioned cohort of idiots. It usually ends up in another thanks-whoring fest. There is little discussion in the forum at present IMO. There is however, plenty of pontificating and righteousness. Many of the prominent ideologues (most often libertarians and republicans IMO) seem to be soapboxers and seem to have no interest in taking on board opposing opinions. They're armed with a few carefully selected facts and come hell or high water, will not accept mitigating factors or evidence.

- The false pretence of expertise. It does my head in. My main topics of interest in the politics forum are migration and education. I can only smile at the nonsense that gets posted in threads concerning either topic. I try my best to not post in them, because it's too frustrating trying to talk to someone who doesn't really want to talk. I am not well acquainted with economics, for example, so I would never dream of lecturing someone who is well acquainted with the subject. I'm not saying that people should not post in threads if they're not experts, but a bit of humility and an open mind would go a long way.

Tl;dr Politics used to be a great forum, and a great source of information. It's gone to crap in the last few years.

That's my perception of things anyway.

If someone has a different perception of things, that's fine - I'm not going to argue. Just giving my feedback.

Nodin

#15 wrote: »

There are a few reasons why I don't post in the politics forum.

- Snide, condescending and arseholey comments. It's just not worth the hassle (although I see not even this thread is spared from those comments). On occasion, I've found myself getting dragged into the same style of posting. I prefer to stay away from that.

- The Irish Economy forum. It needs to be moderated in a much stricter fashion, or preferably, discarded completely. It's probably the worst forum on boards. AH threads are more informative than Irish Economy threads, which are usually fact-free zones.
That's no reflection on the mods btw, who all do a sterling job IMO.

- The genuine malice and bitterness towards certain people or sections of society. There is a considerable cohort of idiotic posters who post random anecdotes and use it as justification for their prejudices. However, what I find much worse than those idiots is the way that genuinely intelligent posters try to conceal their prejudices with a selective reporting of facts. They influence and encourage, possibly unknowingly, the aforementioned cohort of idiots. It usually ends up in another thanks-whoring fest. There is little discussion in the forum at present IMO. There is however, plenty of pontificating and righteousness. Many of the prominent ideologues (most often libertarians and republicans IMO) seem to be soapboxers and seem to have no interest in taking on board opposing opinions. They're armed with a few carefully selected facts and come hell or high water, will not accept mitigating factors or evidence.

- The false pretence of expertise. It does my head in. My main topics of interest in the politics forum are migration and education. I can only smile at the nonsense that gets posted in threads concerning either topic. I try my best to not post in them, because it's too frustrating trying to talk to someone who doesn't really want to talk. I am not well acquainted with economics, for example, so I would never dream of lecturing someone who is well acquainted with the subject. I'm not saying that people should not post in threads if they're not experts, but a bit of humility and an open mind would go a long way.

.................

To be perfectly honest, the vast majority of (fora?) with a decent amount of traffic could have the same issues brought against them. There are nuggets of gold, but much mining and patience required to find them.

#15

Nodin wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, the vast majority of (fora?) with a decent amount of traffic could have the same issues brought against them. There are nuggets of gold, but much mining and patience required to find them.

Fair enough.
I guess I just expect more of the political discussions. I can tolerate nonsense in sports forums, or light-hearted places like AH. But I don't know, it doesn't sit right with me in the politics section. I take your point though.

Nodin

#15 wrote: »

Fair enough.
I guess I just expect more of the political discussions. I can tolerate nonsense in sports forums, or light-hearted places like AH. But I don't know, it doesn't sit right with me in the politics section. I take your point though.

This is an anecdote, which I rarely do, however -

I was moderator on a number of the old MSN boards, and this is in fact the first Irish board I ever joined, which I only found when MSN was closing down theirs, and I was looking for an alternative (the MSN recommended replacement wasn't popular with the members).

The larger of the Boards was called FundiesVAtheists
(I believe one of the members runs it now on lefora, but most of the membership left when msn closed, as they decided to call it a day)
Membership was primarily American and Australian, few Canadians and stragglers from all over. I was the sole paddy. There were a few young members, mostly in their mid twenties, but the majority were 40 and up. At 35, I was the youngest moderator by about 20 years. There was a total ban on "language", which, because there was no filter, meant posts had to be policed 'manually' and this was done with rigour. Members included buisness people, people with published works in the scientific field, pastors, two museum curators (different continents) - all sorts, but not anytxt speak types. In many ways I was the 'bum' amongst them.

There was killins. On a regular basis. Muslim v christian, socially liberal versus socially conservatives, christian v christian, on all the varied subjects you can imagine, whether there was sufficient knowledge of the subject or not, whether there was rhyme or reason betimes. However, in the midst of this chaos was the odd gem well worth wading through the gack for, be it humour, insight or otherwise. Same on most other boards I've been on (which were mostly political and general discussion).

dashboard_hula

#15 wrote: »

There are a few reasons why I don't post in the politics forum.

- Snide, condescending and arseholey comments. It's just not worth the hassle (although I see not even this thread is spared from those comments). On occasion, I've found myself getting dragged into the same style of posting. I prefer to stay away from that.

- The Irish Economy forum. It needs to be moderated in a much stricter fashion, or preferably, discarded completely. It's probably the worst forum on boards. AH threads are more informative than Irish Economy threads, which are usually fact-free zones.
That's no reflection on the mods btw, who all do a sterling job IMO.

- The genuine malice and bitterness towards certain people or sections of society. There is a considerable cohort of idiotic posters who post random anecdotes and use it as justification for their prejudices. However, what I find much worse than those idiots is the way that genuinely intelligent posters try to conceal their prejudices with a selective reporting of facts. They influence and encourage, possibly unknowingly, the aforementioned cohort of idiots. It usually ends up in another thanks-whoring fest. There is little discussion in the forum at present IMO. There is however, plenty of pontificating and righteousness. Many of the prominent ideologues (most often libertarians and republicans IMO) seem to be soapboxers and seem to have no interest in taking on board opposing opinions. They're armed with a few carefully selected facts and come hell or high water, will not accept mitigating factors or evidence.

- The false pretence of expertise. It does my head in. My main topics of interest in the politics forum are migration and education. I can only smile at the nonsense that gets posted in threads concerning either topic. I try my best to not post in them, because it's too frustrating trying to talk to someone who doesn't really want to talk. I am not well acquainted with economics, for example, so I would never dream of lecturing someone who is well acquainted with the subject. I'm not saying that people should not post in threads if they're not experts, but a bit of humility and an open mind would go a long way.

Tl;dr Politics used to be a great forum, and a great source of information. It's gone to crap in the last few years.

That's my perception of things anyway.

If someone has a different perception of things, that's fine - I'm not going to argue. Just giving my feedback.

What they said.

Seriously - I made a remark upthread about how NI political discussion might do well to be regulated to it's own forum, mostly to neaten the place a small bit. However, it seems to me that most of the enthusiasm for a sub-forum on that topic is so that "like minded" posters can discuss the subject at will. That's not what I meant at all - although it might do well as an experiment to prove that old chestnut of a definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

A couple of direct questions, if possible:

There is a 25 post minimum requirement for the soccer forum - is that possible for the Politics forum, and is it difficult to implement?
Understandably, outright permanent bans on some of the more troublesome posters may lead to a very busy DRF for a while, but can it be done? And if it can, why is it not being done?
The word "scumbag" is completely forbidden in AH and Soccer (afaik), could the same be done in Politics with certain other trigger words?

Again, I'd like to backup what other posters have said which is that I have the utmost respect for the very difficult and thankless job that the mods have to do, but I believe that rightly or wrongly, Politics may be an example these days of what Darragh has stated in another thread as one of the reasons why people either leave or don't bother joining boards - they feel the atmostphere is too cliquey, too inconsistent, or can't get a word in edgeways from all the noise. (paraphrasing here - I think that was the gist of it).

Sand

There does tend to be a heavy re-cycling of post themes on the Irish language, some atrocity from Northern Irelands uplifting and postive past, and various innocent queries on Norn Iron (What does David Norris think of the 1916 rebels? Who cares?)/Irish Language stuff. Israel is also a theme, the threads there come with pre-dug tenches

The tired and predictable stances also provoke mocking from others...such as the protest movement started against the Prince of Monacos planned visit to Ireland as an outrage against Irish republicanism. Essentially, theres a lot of noise, very little signal. I havent even opened the "Is it any of the governments business to promote the Irish language thread" and I am 100% certain Ive not missed a single informative post on the subject.

Its difficult for the moderators - they are essentially volunteers, and theyve *always* got better things to do. Its too easy to say "Moderate more/moderate better". Political issues can bring out the worst in people, and though I dont credit any particular group with the wit to organise a boards.ie propaganda project, you cant discount the way people will congregate and circle jerk with fellow travellers through natural association. I can think of one poster who religiously goes through every Israel/Palestine thread thanking every single post that takes a pro-Palestininian stance. Without fail. Every single post. Every single thread. But hes just one guy, so hardly a conspiracy. Can you see part-time moderators beating that level of commitment/obsession?

Some broad moderation rules could be set to make things simpler:

"Is Irish Dead....yet" type threads could simply be pushed into the Gaelige forum under Soc/Languages without any further review.

"United Ireland/Brits did something bad/arent unionists awful" type threads could simply be pushed into the Provo private forum without any further review. The posters who inhabit these threads tend to be already members of the Provo private forum anyway.

Theres also a very obvious bunch of humour-challenged idiots who think no one has *ever* thought of posting as some cute whoor "up ya boyos!" fianna fail troll. They should simply be banned, and their threads locked.

A lot of the Irish/economy related sub forums could be merged or closed.

Another solution would have to be system supported - stopping posters from making more than 1 post per hour in Politics or its subforums. That would force people to consider their posts more, ending rapidly proliferating one liner exchanges or would at least limit the impact of hardline one liners.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

....................

"United Ireland/Brits did something bad/arent unionists awful" type threads could simply be pushed into the Provo private forum without any further review. The posters who inhabit these threads tend to be already members of the Provo private forum anyway.

............

Raise the tone, why don't you.....

Sand

Nodin wrote: »

Raise the tone, why don't you.....

"...Another solution would have to be system supported - stopping posters from making more than 1 post per hour in Politics or its subforums. That would force people to consider their posts more, ending rapidly proliferating one liner exchanges or would at least limit the impact of hardline one liners."

Thanks Nodin - demonstrates the point.

K-9

First things first, let's get rid of agendas here.

I don't care whether you are Republican, Anti Republican, Libertarian, Hard Left, Pro slashing PS pay or borrowing and taxing forever, the things a mess.

What 's the point posting a moderate and even enquiring post as you just get branded as one of "them" whatever that maybe, on a particular, random thread.

I suppose we should report more but the last feedback left this issue very open ended.One thing is for sure, I don't want a AH type forum and the distinction is getting increasingly blurred.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

K-9

The 1 post per hour or a ban on just one liner, glib responses could add something.

It can be tempting to get involved in stupid, tit for tat pointless points!

mike65

I'm all for a ban on one line rejoinders and one post per hour if only to put a stop to Eurolands gallop.
The Libya threads are a total no-go area now

P. Breathnach

It's interesting to note that two posts advocating a ban on one-liners could themselves be compacted into one line each.

More generally, I do not think such a ban would be a good thing: sometimes a telling point can be made in a very brief manner. And the ban could be circumvented by the addition of some padding.

Neither do I think a one-post-per-hour restriction would be a good idea. I don't think that I am the only person who is capable of processing two or more thoughts in the space of 60 minutes.

I agree that we have a problem in the forum, and I think much of the blame attaches to a handful of posters who repeatedly return to gnaw on the same bone. I suggest that the rule on soapboxing be invoked more often.

I wonder if we could have a "mod advisory note" where a mod might send a PM to an individual along the lines of, for example: "It has been noted that you have made a large number of posts to thread X. The thread has become repetitive. Please desist from posting to it or you could be judged to be soapboxing".

I would also suggest earlier locking of threads that take an unproductive direction (which can sometimes happen as early as post #1).

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wolfe Tone

I still think a superthread on the various republican arguments would be ideal and tidy the forum up. Republican threads always descend into the same debates, which would be fine if it didn't scare people away. People obviously want to have these debates, so why not a superthread? Then everyones happy.