Women & Islam

Ellie2008

I was wondering if I am alone in this - does anyone else ever get depressed about what happens to women in states where Sharia law is enforced - whipping, women being stoned to death. The problem just seems to enormous to solve. Thats my thought for the day I suppose! Depressing!

Wibbs

This could get "interesting". The three desert religions aren't exactly great on women's rights or equality. Oh sure they may claim they are, but they really really aren't. Islam is a classic for claiming this. Of course in a very narrow, indeed primitive framework of what they define as "equality".

Of course the elephant in the room not often spoken of is that way more women than men convert to Islam. And in marriage in Islam the woman doesn't have to convert. An muslim man can marry a non muslim woman(so long as she's christian or jewish). However a muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim man. That's just where the "equality" starts. It gets better after that... Yet more and more "western" woman buy into this. That would make me ask what's so wrong with western society that makes them choose that?

Ellie2008

Wibbs wrote: »

This could get "interesting". The three desert religions aren't exactly great on women's rights or equality. Oh sure they may claim they are, but they really really aren't. Islam is a classic for claiming this. Of course in a very narrow, indeed primitive framework of what they define as "equality".

Of course the elephant in the room not often spoken of is that way more women than men convert to Islam. And in marriage in Islam the woman doesn't have to convert. An muslim man can marry a non muslim woman(so long as she's christian or jewish). However a muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim man. That's just where the "equality" starts. It gets better after that... Yet more and more "western" woman buy into this. That would make me ask what's so wrong with western society that makes them choose that?

I've noticed this there was an article inthe Irish Times recently five converts four of whom were women and I think only one had done because she married a Muslim. Totally agree with you I think we do need to ask what is it about our society that makes this seem lime an appealing option.

metrovelvet

I didnt realise this was a trend. At the same time, not so hard a decision to do it in a country that doesnt practise sharia law.

There was a case in the US where a judge let a Muslim man off for raping his wife. It was overturned eventually, but still shows its trickling into the judicial conciousness.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-12-09-shariaban09_ST_N.htm

Earlier this year, for example, an appeals court in New Jersey overturned a state court judge's refusal to issue a restraining order against a Muslim man who forced his wife to engage in sexual intercourse. The judge found that the man did not intend to rape his wife because he believed his religion permitted him to have sex with her whenever he desired.

The case "presents a conflict between the criminal law and religious precepts," the appeals court wrote. "In resolving this conflict, the judge determined to except (the husband) from the operation of the State's statutes as the result of his religious beliefs. In doing so, the judge was mistaken."

So...what would be the appeal for a western woman to convert? Do they actually adore Mohammad or are they escaping something in western mores?

Logical Fallacy

metrovelvet wrote: »

So...what would be the appeal for a western woman to convert? Do they actually adore Mohammad or are they escaping something in western mores?

Perhaps it's as simple as while they live in a non Muslim country they feel protected from what they see as the negative elements of the society?

Galvasean

My 2c. I'd say it's easier for a western woman to fall for a Muslim man than it is for a western man to fall for a Muslim woman. A lot of Muslim women can't be seen properly in public (headgear etc.), so they would not be seen as being attractive to western men.

A lot of the stuff written in the Qu'ran in relation to how women should be treated is, quite frankly, sick. They are essentially described as a slave race.
Some of the stuff in relation to this that pops up in the Hazards of Belief thread over in A&A is quite depressing.

chicken fingers

The really sad thing is that you could never convince 95% of muslim women that they are being treated as a sub human.

The articles I've read about conversion generally had obsessions with "now I cover up and men cant look at me and I feel great". There was also "I used to think a career was important and wanted nothing else but now I stay home and mind the kids because of my husband". There was a woman in the islam forum a couple years ago on about how since she converted she "makes more effort" in the evening for her husband and doesn't wear makeup to work anymore I asked what efforts he was making for her now but to no avail.

Seems like it's another obsession with appearance in reaction to the pressure of looking good??

Then you have the women on about how islam promoted equality and was very forward thinking for women. Yeah maybe when it was originated it was forward thinking compared to how women might have been treated at that time, but it's been stuck there as far as I can see. Some of the child abuse of girls in Yemen for example are appalling

Here we are
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7135026.ece
You can see some of it was "they were confident and secure and I wanted to be too"
then you have the "I used to live a crazy life and now I'm reformed", similar to born-again christians
It's a bit a la carte really just like cultural catholicism or whathaveyou

Wibbs

Galvasean wrote: »

My 2c. I'd say it's easier for a western woman to fall for a Muslim man than it is for a western man to fall for a Muslim woman. A lot of Muslim women can't be seen properly in public (headgear etc.), so they would not be seen as being attractive to western men.

Plus if they're any way devout, especially middle eastern good luck in even getting to talk to one. Even if you did, you can't marry one without converting yourself. One of the nice little self protection mechanisms built into the faith.(men can marry who they like of course).

A lot of the stuff written in the Qu'ran in relation to how women should be treated is, quite frankly, sick. They are essentially described as a slave race.

Well not so much. They had actual slaves for that... But yea there is a helluva lot of talk about women "your right hand possesses". IE slave girls, at the time picked up as war booty and piracy/camel raids by the prophet and his followers. Yea you couldnt make this stuff up. So when I hear people say "ah sure isn't it just like Christianity", I say no, it really isn't, read more.

Some of the stuff in relation to this that pops up in the Hazards of Belief thread over in A&A is quite depressing.

Yep. Though in an other way, it proves to me the innate goodness of my fellow humans, because even though much of the source material is backward, primitive and aggressive, the vast vast majority of people who follow it are nothing like that and just take the good bits.

chicken fingers wrote: »

The really sad thing is that you could never convince 95% of muslim women that they are being treated as a sub human.

There is of course the other aspect. Like I say the elephant in the room, maybe there are a fair few women who want to be the subservient non equal one in the relationship? Who want the man to do all the thinking and have all of the responsibility, leaving them to the house and their kids. They do exist. Quite a few of them. Never mind Islamic women either. The D4 type "Ladies who lunch" fall into that category. The "I had a career until I found a man" types too.

Then you have the women on about how islam promoted equality and was very forward thinking for women. Yeah maybe when it was originated it was forward thinking compared to how women might have been treated at that time, but it's been stuck there as far as I can see.

Bingo. Though this notion that women were downtrodden beforehand is pushed by some Muslim apologists, there are questions. EG the prophets first wife, a woman older than him who was high up in her tribe and a well known and respected and rich businesswoman. Try looking for one of those after...

then you have the "I used to live a crazy life and now I'm reformed", similar to born-again christians
It's a bit a la carte really just like cultural catholicism or whathaveyou

True. Not so easy to leave though. At least publicly.

LittleBook

metrovelvet wrote: »

So...what would be the appeal for a western woman to convert? Do they actually adore Mohammad or are they escaping something in western mores?

This:

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Perhaps it's as simple as while they live in a non Muslim country they feel protected from what they see as the negative elements of the society?

(As well as the negative elements of the religion they've chosen)

And this (from the converted women interviewed article Bluewolf links):

I do agree with the Islamic perspective on the traditional roles for men and women. I want to look after my husband and children

My fiancé, whom I met eight months ago, is from Afghanistan and he believes that a Muslim woman is a pearl and her husband is the shell that protects her. I value that old-fashioned way of life: I’m glad that when we get married he’ll take care of paying the bills. I always wanted to be a housewife anyway.

And this:

I knew he was a Muslim, but we were falling in love, so I brushed the whole issue of religion under the carpet. But six months into our relationship, he told me that being with me was ‘against his faith’.

I met my future husband, Syed, in the sixth form, he challenged all my preconceptions ... A year later, we were head over heels in love, but we quickly realised: how could we be together if he was a Muslim and I wasn’t?

It's interesting that when defending their choice some of the women state that it's the culture, not the religion which gives Islam a bad reputation. While others seem to have converted specifically for the culture rather than the religion. But I suspect that many (if not most) of the conversions are for love more than anything else.

Ellie2008

Hmm I would have always assumed the love thing but when I read some of the articles on it it seems this is not a factor in a lot of cases, what percentage I'm not sure. I read somewhere that the Koran teaches that once you re-convert (based on the belief that we re all born Muslim) all your past sins are forgiven. I am in my late twenties and if I could do it all over I would change a lot, i have a lot of regrets so I think I could see how this appeals to some the ultimate forgiveness type thing to put your mind at rest.

Ellie2008

Ellie2008 wrote: »

Hmm I would have always assumed the love thing but when I read some of the articles on it it seems this is not a factor in a lot of cases, what percentage I'm not sure. I read somewhere that the Koran teaches that once you re-convert (based on the belief that we re all born Muslim) all your past sins are forgiven. I am in my late twenties and if I could do it all over I would change a lot, i have a lot of regrets so I think I could see how this appeals to some the ultimate forgiveness type thing to put your mind at rest.

Well honestly it's just a different way of forgiving yourself when it comes down to it so I would suggest finding other ways to help

Ellie2008

But to throw another two cents in, when you see videos and pictures of women being stoned at half time at football matchesits just horrifying I mean I'm sure most people couldn't dwell on it, how can Western converts ever claim this is culture and not religion? I d love to ask one but I don't know any.

Truley

Ellie2008 wrote: »

what happens to women in states where Sharia law is enforced - whipping, women being stoned to death.

In fairness alot of these punishments are meted out to men too. In fact in alot of these cases men will get harsher punishments for the same crime, larger fines, greater number of lashes etc. The same in schools.

ztoical

I'm currently living in London and the area we live in has a major Muslim population so seeing women in the full Niqāb [the viel which covers the face] is very common and it's a big talking point in the media. I also currently work on a animated tv show that is based off an Islamic superhero comic book series so it's an area I've been getting alot of education in for the past year. There is a massive specturm within Islam, just like with christianity and I've meet a number of muslim women who wear different styles of hijab [head covering] and they were able to express quite clearly their views on it and why they [I stress they as for these women it was clearly their choice] opted to wear the head scarf. While as a non religious person I don't agree with wearing set clothes because some god told you to I did at least respect their choice. But these are all young trendy muslim women living in London who have far more freedom then they ever would in a muslim country. They tend to be the ones pushed forward to the media in the west when ever the topic of banning head scarfs comes up. It's hard to argue with them without sounding like your a bigot or trying to force your views on them but the reality for the majority of muslim women is very different.

The BBC had a documentary on recently of a young teenage muslim girl who had moved to London from afghanistan at the age of 2 and they followed her as she went back to see her grandmother in afghanistan. It was a really interesting show to watch as she was able to get a much more personal view from people due to having a large family there and she thought she would be ok wearing just a head scarf there but as she moved out of the main streets she had men approaching her, staring at her, pushing into her, yelling, throwing things until she felt she had no choice but to go get a full burqa out of hear for her own safty but the authories make out like all the women still wearing burqas in the country are doing so by their own choice.

A recent newspaper piece in the London Standard interviewed several women who converted and wore the Niqāb [the full face covering] and while one presented a decent enough case of it being between her and her God, the rest just came across as women with major issues with how they looked. One had worked as a model before converting and the way she talked about how 'freeing' the Niqāb was for her just screamed of someone with major physiological issues over her appearance and seemed to only be able to live in the two extremes - she was either a model and all about her looks or she was totally covered up, she seemed not able to age gracefully or deal with being a plain jane in a room. While she was clearly an extreme emtional head case the rest of women who had converted and covered up came across with similar views, they sounded like they were unable to hack it for lack of different word with western views of women and islam offered them an easy out. It's easy to look at Islam and focus there but some of the reasons your seeing western women converting is that it's become very hard for a woman here to be a house wife, there is both the view that due to the work done on equality that ever women should go out and work and also the economic factors that there are few households here that can really live off one pay check. I think Islam offers something to certain women who want to be housewives but don't think they'd be able to do that in our soceity. I remember doing my leaving there was one girl whose only goal in life was to be a mother and wife, she didn't want to work not out of lazziness mind but she held the view she should be in the home looking after kids and the house and she got alot of abuse from both students and teachers for wanting this.

metrovelvet

I can't see much of a difference between a niqab and twenty pounds of make up [Im not anti make up at all- but you know what I'm talking about!]

pickarooney

It just occured to me reading the other thread - what's the level of bullying like between Muslim women, particularly ones who cover up completely?

Emme

Wibbs wrote: »

This could get "interesting". The three desert religions aren't exactly great on women's rights or equality. Oh sure they may claim they are, but they really really aren't. Islam is a classic for claiming this. Of course in a very narrow, indeed primitive framework of what they define as "equality".

Of course the elephant in the room not often spoken of is that way more women than men convert to Islam. And in marriage in Islam the woman doesn't have to convert. An muslim man can marry a non muslim woman(so long as she's christian or jewish). However a muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim man. That's just where the "equality" starts. It gets better after that... Yet more and more "western" woman buy into this. That would make me ask what's so wrong with western society that makes them choose that?

Maybe the lot of Western women isn't as great as it appears to be. You only have to look at some of the threads here to see how badly treated Western women can be in relationships, and our our "liberal" approach to relationships doesn't always benefit women. Women are under pressure to have sex relatively early in a relationship under Western norms and there's no guarantee that the man will stay around or consider the relationship exclusive.

I think that women in Islam get more respect in a lot of ways. You always hear the bad stories from Islam, but I would like to hear positive accounts of Islamic life from Muslim women. I work with several Muslims and they are very hard-working, honest people and they treat those around them with respect. There isn't the same pressure on women to dress "sexy" nor is there the pressure to have sex before a serious commitment is made (in Islam, that commitment is marriage). I can see how that would appeal to a lot of women.

I'm not saying that Islam is some kind of utopia, but it has more going for it than many Western people would like to believe.

metrovelvet

I think the west has fooled itself.

Seriously, we are not getting stoned to death for adultuery, but we are getting our feet bones broken to fit into high heels and killing ourselves with anorexia.

The rape laws suck.

Its perfectly ok to walk out on your illigitamate child.

Women are pressured into being sexually liberated and it trickles down into girls as young as eleven giving blow jobs.

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

It just occured to me reading the other thread - what's the level of bullying like between Muslim women, particularly ones who cover up completely?

They dont cover up in their own company so from the (very very little) I have heard it can go on just as much, scorning other women for various reasons e.g. she only wears a headscarf so she's not good enough etc as well as the usual stuff
There was an interesting article I read a while back about it saying how the women were as much enforcers of some of the covering garments if not more so


MV, we both have problems in our societies, it's true.
But given everything I would prefer to be in our society. The idea that saudi women for example have to have the money they earn from working paid into their father's/husband's bank account and doled out to them is horrible. I am glad we have moved on from that.

ztoical

metrovelvet wrote: »

I can't see much of a difference between a niqab and twenty pounds of make up [Im not anti make up at all- but you know what I'm talking about!]

At least you can still make out a persons facial experssions under twenty pounds of make up. I've found it hard to put into words what about the niqab makes me uncomfortable but it is something about not being able to look someone in the eye. I've been in lines in the bank or the supermarket with women in the full niqab head to toe and I just find it uncomfortable. I have to date got off a train once when a woman sat near by in the full niqab - there was something very off about how she was pulling at it or doing something with her hands under the cloak and she kept darting her head around but without being able to see any facial features I couldn't tell if she was excited or scared and it just made me feel really uncomfortable so I got off and waited for the next tube. It's something when I try to express the feeling in my head I think it sounds like I'm just being bigoted towards another culture and I know I'm not someone who normally has any issues with different cultures or religions so I end feeling very confused and conflicted about the whole thing. The head scarf I don't feel the same issues with as I can see the persons face.

Emme

ztoical wrote: »

At least you can still make out a persons facial experssions under twenty pounds of make up.

Not always, if the woman has had botox or a facelift you can't see her expression properly. In a way, make-up, botox, cosmetic surgery etc is the West's version of a niqab. I would imagine that the pressure to constantly look young, beautiful and sexy is just as tough on a woman as having to wear a niqab.

ztoical

Emme wrote: »

Not always, if the woman has had botox or a facelift you can't see her expression properly. In a way, make-up, botox, cosmetic surgery etc is the West's version of a niqab. I would imagine that the pressure to constantly look young, beautiful and sexy is just as tough on a woman as having to wear a niqab.

Even with extreme cosmetic work it's different to someone covering their face. I agree the wests focus on appearance isn't something to be proud of and it can be very tough for people feeling they have to stay young and look a certain way but if you see someone on the street whose had a bad botox job [I work for the tv company that makes shows like hotter then my daughter and dating in the dark so I see far few wandering in and out all day] you can still have connect with that person as being a human being, someone hiding beind fabric or even a bike helmet loses that human quality and it can be a weird.

the_syco

Wibbs wrote: »

An muslim man can marry a non muslim woman(so long as she's christian or jewish). However a muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim man.

IIRC, this is because the man decides the religion of the house, so if a muslim woman married a non-muslim man, her children would be brought up as non-muslims.

metrovelvet wrote: »

The rape laws suck.

I don't think rape exists in Sharia law. Heck, she is your wife. You can have sex any time you want :rolleyes:

=-=

Man and woman gets caught seeing each other outside of marriage. What happens to them shows just how f**ked up Sharia law is.

Galvasean

Wibbs wrote: »

True. Not so easy to leave though. At least publicly.

Reminds me of this widely circulated video where Richard Dawkins eventually gets an answer out of a cleric after repeatedly asking what is the punishment for apostasy.

It's death

Truley wrote: »

In fairness alot of these punishments are meted out to men too. In fact in alot of these cases men will get harsher punishments for the same crime, larger fines, greater number of lashes etc. The same in schools.

I don't recall any cases where a man was stoned to death for the 'crime' of being raped.

ztoical wrote: »

I remember doing my leaving there was one girl whose only goal in life was to be a mother and wife, she didn't want to work not out of lazziness mind but she held the view she should be in the home looking after kids and the house and she got alot of abuse from both students and teachers for wanting this.

It's weird. If a man wanted to do the same thing he would most likely be championed. I think a lot of people don't realize that the freedom to break away from gender stereotypes is a choice, as opposed to compulsory, in the modern age.

Emme wrote: »

Maybe the lot of Western women isn't as great as it appears to be. You only have to look at some of the threads here to see how badly treated Western women can be in relationships, and our our "liberal" approach to relationships doesn't always benefit women. Women are under pressure to have sex relatively early in a relationship under Western norms and there's no guarantee that the man will stay around or consider the relationship exclusive.

Women in Muslim societies are not under pressure to have sex from an early age?
http://journaloffeministinsight.blogspot.com/2010/09/islam-and-underage-marriage.html

And if you think Muslim men are unlikely to leave their woman / be unfaithful I suggest a quick google.

Galvasean

ztoical wrote: »

Even with extreme cosmetic work it's different to someone covering their face. I agree the wests focus on appearance isn't something to be proud of and it can be very tough for people feeling they have to stay young and look a certain way but if you see someone on the street whose had a bad botox job [I work for the tv company that makes shows like hotter then my daughter and dating in the dark so I see far few wandering in and out all day] you can still have connect with that person as being a human being, someone hiding beind fabric or even a bike helmet loses that human quality and it can be a weird.

I'd agree with you there. While botox isn't exactly my cup of tea; see Sylvester Stallone. The guy can barely emote anymore.
However, complete covering of the face is another step in the 'dehumanization' of the human face. When you consider bad guys in movies, they often have their faces covered with masks, helmets etc. This is to make them appear less human so that the audience does not relate to them and feel sorry for them when they are killed in their droves.

Galvasean

Galvasean wrote: »

I don't recall any cases where a man was stoned to death for the 'crime' of being raped.

Ostensibly they are supposed to suffer some punishment for raping a girl(and sometimes do), but in many of the news stories, the man has escaped or is nowhere to be found.
Presumably this is with some local aid

ztoical

Galvasean wrote: »

I'd agree with you there. While botox isn't exactly my cup of tea; see Sylvester Stallone. The guy can barely emote anymore.
However, complete covering of the face is another step in the 'dehumanization' of the human face. When you consider bad guys in movies, they often have their faces covered with masks, helmets etc. This is to make them appear less human so that the audience does not relate to them and feel sorry for them when they are killed in their droves.

There is a term in comics and animation called 'Masking' and it has to do with humans habbit of projecting human facial features on to objects like for example cars [headlights become the eyes and the grill the mouth] It's used time and again in comics and tv/film to get people to relate to characters.

This little guy The smilie is one of the most basic symbols that everyone on the planet can related to as it has no gender, has no ethnicity. Two dots for eye and line for a month is enough for people to relate to as they are the two main features we use to emote and by covering them your cutting off the most basic way that humans relate with each other.

Emme

ztoical wrote: »

Even with extreme cosmetic work it's different to someone covering their face. I agree the wests focus on appearance isn't something to be proud of and it can be very tough for people feeling they have to stay young and look a certain way but if you see someone on the street whose had a bad botox job [I work for the tv company that makes shows like hotter then my daughter and dating in the dark so I see far few wandering in and out all day] you can still have connect with that person as being a human being, someone hiding beind fabric or even a bike helmet loses that human quality and it can be a weird.

Hotter than my daughter - what a pathetic name for a TV show! This is exactly my point - there is huge pressure in the West for women to stay young and beautiful, a middle-aged woman's "real" face doesn't cut it here, she has to "mask" or "veil" it with make-up and cosmetic procedures. Islam isn't perfect in the way it treats women, but women in Western society are subjected to at least as much pressure in different ways.

metrovelvet

I dont think that's true in the middle east.

Ellie2008

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dont think that's true in the middle east.

Which bit isn't true, curious?

Emme

Galvasean wrote: »

Women in Muslim societies are not under pressure to have sex from an early age?
http://journaloffeministinsight.blogspot.com/2010/09/islam-and-underage-marriage.html

I think the above article is more a reflection on primitive societies. The same thing happens in some Hindu and Roma gypsy communities as well. I know that in Islamic societies women tend to marry younger than those in Western societies but not all Muslim men marry child brides.

As for early sexualisation, we are just as guilty here in our own way even if the girls concerned aren't forced into early marriages:

http://www.onlineschools.org/education-debate/hypersexualized-children-sexual-identity-at-5-padded-bras-at-8-nea-sex-act-education-at-11/

metrovelvet

Ellie2008 wrote: »

Which bit isn't true, curious?

Its very different being a Muslim woman in the west than it is in the middle east. In the west they are protected by western law.

ztoical

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its very different being a Muslim woman in the west than it is in the middle east. In the west they are protected by western law.

They are only protected if they come forward looking for help which alot don't. The UK has alot of issues with forced/arranged marraiges and abuses happening within those marraiges that go un-reported in major islamic areas like Bedford were alot of the issues are dealt by official sharia courts which have been allowed to set by the uk government. Their rulings are binding in uk law and it's very easy for abuse cases to be hidden through them and not be seen by social workers.

metrovelvet

ztoical wrote: »

They are only protected if they come forward looking for help which alot don't. The UK has alot of issues with forced/arranged marraiges and abuses happening within those marraiges that go un-reported in major islamic areas like Bedford were alot of the issues are dealt by official sharia courts which have been allowed to set by the uk government. Their rulings are binding in uk law and it's very easy for abuse cases to be hidden through them and not be seen by social workers.

The Brits should really follow the French and Americans where you CANNOT have a faith based state and its secularisation must be sustained.

Is there no separation of church and state in the UK?

I should ammend my statement to say 'Its very different being a muslim woman in the west [bar Britain] than it is in the middle east."

Galvasean

Emme wrote: »

I think the above article is more a reflection on primitive societies. The same thing happens in some Hindu and Roma gypsy communities as well.

I would argue that heavily religious societies are often (but not exclusively) primitive ones. In many societies 'primitive' behaviors are permitted under the instruction (or at least interpreted instruction) of holy texts.

Emme wrote:

I know that in Islamic societies women tend to marry younger than those in Western societies but not all Muslim men marry child brides.

Much like not all western men chase jail bait. I don't think it's intellectually honest to dismiss a problem in a society by stating that not everyone does it.

Emme wrote:

As for early sexualisation, we are just as guilty here in our own way even if the girls concerned aren't forced into early marriages:

http://www.onlineschools.org/education-debate/hypersexualized-children-sexual-identity-at-5-padded-bras-at-8-nea-sex-act-education-at-11/

Oh I am not for one minute denying that early sexualisation does not occur here in the west. It is a huge problem IMO. You just have to look at the various 13 year old pop singers that pop out of the woodwork and see how sexualised they are. Pretty messed up stuff right there.
I was highlighting the point that joining an Islamic society is not the best way to avoid early sexualisation.

metrovelvet

Galvasean wrote: »

I would argue that heavily religious societies are often (but not exclusively) primitive ones. In many societies 'primitive' behaviors are permitted under the instruction (or at least interpreted instruction) of holy texts.



Much like not all western men chase jail bait. I don't think it's intellectually honest to dismiss a problem in a society by stating that not everyone does it.



Oh I am not for one minute denying that early sexualisation does not occur here in the west. It is a huge problem IMO. You just have to look at the various 13 year old pop singers that pop out of the woodwork and see how sexualised they are. Pretty messed up stuff right there.
I was highlighting the point that joining an Islamic society is not the best way to avoid early sexualisation.

Dont forget it was not that long ago that IReland was not that different. It wasnt until the 1980s in the UK [not sure in Ireland] where it was not possible to rape your wife. Ireland had the magdalene laundries [again not by law but by civilians who gave their children to these places], an epidemic of pedofilia, and a cruel and crippling theocracy

Galvasean

metrovelvet wrote: »

I should ammend my statement to say 'Its very different being a muslim woman in the west [bar Britain] than it is in the middle east."

I don't mean to be picking holes everywhere, but that is not necessarily true either. Even in states where secularism is embraced and sharia law has no legal power you still get an awful lot of it. Example.

metrovelvet

Galvasean wrote: »

I don't mean to be picking holes everywhere, but that is not necessarily true either. Even in states where secularism is embraced and sharia law has no legal power you still get an awful lot of it. Example.

Close the borders.

Ellie2008

metrovelvet wrote: »

Close the borders.

Im not sure that would solve the problem.

ztoical

metrovelvet wrote: »

The Brits should really follow the French and Americans where you CANNOT have a faith based state and its secularisation must be sustained.

Is there no separation of church and state in the UK?

I should ammend my statement to say 'Its very different being a muslim woman in the west [bar Britain] than it is in the middle east."

Alot of it has to do with history. The Muslim population in France is mainly from North Africa while in the UK the Muslim population is mainly from pakistan/india and is a very different make up [same as the muslim population in Germany is mainly from Turkey]. Muslim groups that move to France tend to be from areas which maintained strong ties with French language and culture and would speak French as a first language and intergrate more quickly while in the UK and German alot of these populations do not speak Germany or English as their first language and therefore are isolated more from the rest of the population. The UK diversity make-up and attitudes to ex-empire countries plays a role as does the French view of not collecting data on ethnicity and race along with it's history of welcoming Black Africans before other European countries did means you have a very different attitude. It's not simply a case of all muslims are muslims, yes they are, just like all catholics are catholic but Irish catholics are not the same as polish catholics.

Galvasean

metrovelvet wrote: »

Dont forget it was not that long ago that IReland was not that different. It wasnt until the 1980s in the UK [not sure in Ireland] where it was not possible to rape your wife. Ireland had the magdalene laundries [again not by law but by civilians who gave their children to these places], an epidemic of pedofilia, and a cruel and crippling theocracy

Aye, 'twas quite the shytehole alright so it was.
We're improving somewhat. Personally, I think it's no small coincidence that the improvements in quality of life here (particularly for women) coincides with the downfall of the Catholic Church.

Wolfe Tone

Wibbs wrote: »

This could get "interesting". The three desert religions aren't exactly great on women's rights or equality. Oh sure they may claim they are, but they really really aren't. Islam is a classic for claiming this. Of course in a very narrow, indeed primitive framework of what they define as "equality".

Of course the elephant in the room not often spoken of is that way more women than men convert to Islam. And in marriage in Islam the woman doesn't have to convert. An muslim man can marry a non muslim woman(so long as she's christian or jewish). However a muslim woman cannot marry a non muslim man. That's just where the "equality" starts. It gets better after that... Yet more and more "western" woman buy into this. That would make me ask what's so wrong with western society that makes them choose that?

I think a better question would be "what is wrong with western society that makes them chose religion"

Galvasean

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think a better question would be "what is wrong with western society that makes them chose religion"

Well, by and large western society is awfully superficial and if you don't play your cards right you can quite easily end up living a 'hollow' or 'empty' life. This often leads people to question the meaning of it all. "There must be just more to it than this, So tell me, why do we exist?" is a question many ask. Religion tends to offer answers to these questions (I don't agree with them, but for arguments sake) and offers something western society by and large does not.
In relation to Islam specifically it probably appears 'purer' / less tainted by modern western society. That is why I believe it to be an attractive prospect to some.

Ellie2008

Galvasean wrote: »

Well, by and large western society is awfully superficial and if you don't play your cards right you can quite easily end up living a 'hollow' or 'empty' life. This often leads people to question the meaning of it all. "There must be just more to it than this, So tell me, why do we exist?" is a question many ask. Religion tends to offer answers to these questions (I don't agree with them, but for arguments sake) and offers something western society by and large does not.
In relation to Islam specifically it probably appears 'purer' / less tainted by modern western society. That is why I believe it to be an attractive prospect to some.

Couldn't agree more.

WindSock

ztoical wrote: »

The UK has alot of issues with forced/arranged marraiges and abuses happening within those marraiges that go un-reported in major islamic areas like Bedford were alot of the issues are dealt by official sharia courts which have been allowed to set by the uk government.

:eek:

I didn't know they practice it there. I remember hearing a while ago that there was a push for Sharia Law for UK Muslims but it was heavily opposed. Didn't think it would have been allowed, it violates several human rights (afaik).

Wibbs

They can only practice it there if it doesn't go against local (UK) law and both parties are agreeable. Mostly for divorce/custody land ownership. type things IIRC.

metrovelvet

Galvasean wrote: »

Well, by and large western society is awfully superficial and if you don't play your cards right you can quite easily end up living a 'hollow' or 'empty' life. This often leads people to question the meaning of it all. "There must be just more to it than this, So tell me, why do we exist?" is a question many ask. Religion tends to offer answers to these questions (I don't agree with them, but for arguments sake) and offers something western society by and large does not.
In relation to Islam specifically it probably appears 'purer' / less tainted by modern western society. That is why I believe it to be an attractive prospect to some.

And community too. Belonging somewhere. That has a powerful draw.

strobe

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet more and more "western" woman buy into this. That would make me ask what's so wrong with western society that makes them choose that?

"Offer people a new creed with a costume and their hearts and minds will follow."

People want to belong to... something. They want to feel like they have some kind of purpose. Most people find this in their work or family or group of friends but some people don't. They feel like they are missing something, like there is a hole that needs to be filled. Religions, not just Islam. Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, all claim to know your purpose, to know why the hole is there and to be the one thing that can fill it.

Introduce someone that feels like they don't belong or don't have a purpose, at a particularly fragile time in their lives, to someone with a bit of a talent for shifting snake oil, and they will buy it and gulp it down. A friend of Muhammed Ali once said (paraphrasing) "I say only half jokingly that if I had of really tried back then, I could have converted Cassius to Judaism". Take someone that converts to Islam and introduce them to a talented Scientology recruiter, at the time they began to take an interest in Islam, and there is a good chance they would be sitting on Abbey St a few months later asking if you want to take a free personality test.

It's nice to feel like you belong, like you are part of something. For some people that feeling is the most important thing in the world. People have killed and died for it over the centuries. Hitler (godwined) mobilised the most dedicated and grateful and committed force the world had ever seen on the back of the principle.

In my opinion....

Nothing is wrong with western society. Muslim women (and men) convert to Christianity at the risk of death in Muslim nations every single day and flee to the west. The grass is always greener. In particular for those that are at a vulnerable point in their lives. For those that feel they don't belong to anything and crave to.

John Mason

I am wondering if any of the poster here has a conversation about Islam with a Muslim woman?

Or has anyone dropped in the local Mosque for a chat with the Iman ?

if not, i highly recommend it. Very, very interesting and informative.

Ellie2008

irishbird wrote: »

I am wondering if any of the poster here has a conversation about Islam with a Muslim woman?

Or has anyone dropped in the local Mosque for a chat with the Iman ?

if not, i highly recommend it. Very, very interesting and informative.

No, I take it you have do you mind me asking why you did and what you got from it, considering converting?