E.U & YesMen Are Preparing To Kill Democracy In Ireland

UsernameInUse

Before Ireland joined the EU, it had full employment and total debt was 60% of its GNP. Today its real underemployment is up to 30%, 1 out of every 2 men over 15 and of a working age is not working full time. And our total debt is up to 700% of GNP.

We don't have control over our interest rates, we have no control over our banks, we have no control over our currency and exchange rate policy, our fiscal policy is incrementally being assimilated by the EU and EU directives dictate our company law as indeed most of our social choice is dictated from Brussels.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-eu-is-preparing-to-kill-irish-democracy-2595325.html

Scathing attack by the Independent. More to come from this anti-Euro debate in the coming months.

galwayrush

Last time we had control over our intrest rates, 13% was considered normal....
Full employment?.. probably due to anyone who couldn't get a job had to emigrate.

Smcgie

We must include our own greed and loss of reality in that..

oppenheimer1

Considering that its likely there will be a european referendum in the near future with the accession of Croatia, we are in for some interesting times. I don't believe a european referendum will ever pass here again.

UsernameInUse

"I believe that totalitarianism; if not fought against, could triumph again."
- George Orwell.

galwayrush

Smcgie wrote: »

We must include our own greed and loss of reality in that..

I won't, because i was never greedy and never lost my sense of reality.

Coriolanus

Vive L'Emperor!

We've made a mess of the country on our own. The brits should have known better than to let the kids decide for themselves.

Riamfada

Id love the old punt back. Euro money is well gay.

Chucky the tree

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Considering that its likely there will be a european referendum in the near future with the accession of Croatia, we are in for some interesting times. I don't believe a european referendum will ever pass here again.

Wouldn't be so sure. Most Irish people aren't that retarded, well I hope not anyway.

catbear

Don't forget that that full time employment also meant many women had to leave their employment when they got married even if they didn't want to. It seems Ireland just wants to continuously hurt itself.

My name is URL

Anyone know who wrote the piece? It usually says doesn't it?

Can't fault it in any case, though I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to tell us that 'if not for the EU we would never have achieved'.. the bubble which has so spectacularly fcuked us up.

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Before Ireland joined the EU, it had full employment and total debt was 60% of its GNP.

Have you been banned from the politics and economy forum ?

UsernameInUse

Europe has treated Ireland like second class citizens over the last number of years. What they did regarding the bailouts was illegal - and what they're doing this weekend is illegal also.

Nothing they do is in Irelands interest, only Europes interest.

amacachi

My name is URL wrote: »

Anyone know who wrote the piece? It usually says doesn't it?

Can't fault it in any case, though I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to tell us that 'if not for the EU we would never have achieved'.. the bubble which has so spectacularly fcuked us up.

The EU created the bubble? Wasn't our policy of no property tax and the huge tax cuts on all elements of housing construction? Or the corruption in the banks? Nothing to do with that? Good to know.

Mike 1972

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Before Ireland joined the EU, it had full employment .

FAIL !

UsernameInUse wrote: »

We don't have control over our interest rates, we have no control over our currency

We never really did.

Before 1979 we were in a currency union with the UK
For the next twenty years or so we were in the EMS/ERM
Then we joined the EMU.

For any small country heavily exposed to global markets the concept of any meaningful degree of control of such things is pretty much a delusion.

My name is URL

amacachi wrote: »

The EU created the bubble? Wasn't our policy of no property tax and the huge tax cuts on all elements of housing construction? Or the corruption in the banks? Nothing to do with that? Good to know.

I never said they created it, obviously that was our own doing.. They seemed all too happy to help us achieve it though.

UsernameInUse

Mike 1972 wrote: »

FAIL !

You obviously don't know anything about economics. "Full employment" does not mean, literally full employment. That's impossible. Economists grant for example 5% as Full employment for statistical means. It takes a deeper evaluation than reading it in the basic sense. :rolleyes:

amacachi

My name is URL wrote: »

I never said they created it, obviously that was our own doing.. They seemed all too happy to help us achieve it though.

You were really paying attention it seems. They were constantly moaning about our inflation etc. We had inflation over 4% and we cut taxes and increased government spending more than the rate of inflation.
It's more entertaining to find clips of foreign politicians praising us back then but there were plenty urging caution and we ignored it.

Overheal

May I ask yous: whats your entrepreneurship rate? Right now in the United States we have higher college graduate rates than we have in the last few years and many of them are going to work for themselves, forming LLCs and such. The US is now a 15 year high in its Entrepreneurship rate. Not only are they employing themselves, but potentially others.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/03/07/2706305/local-news-in-brief-rate-of-us.html

So whats different with Ireland there? Why aren't the unemployed going into business for themselves? Why aren't the jobless creating jobs?

opinion guy

UsernameInUse wrote: »

You obviously don't know anything about economics. "Full employment" does not mean, literally full employment. That's impossible. Economists grant for example 5% as Full employment for statistical means. It takes a deeper evaluation than reading it in the basic sense. :rolleyes:

Nevertheless...

FAIL

Overheal

opinion guy wrote: »

Nevertheless...

2002 called and it wants it's meme back. And now I'm on hold with 1973.

ascanbe

Overheal wrote: »

May I ask yous: whats your entrepreneurship rate? Right now in the United States we have higher college graduate rates than we have in the last few years and many of them are going to work for themselves, forming LLCs and such. The US is now a 15 year high in its Entrepreneurship rate. Not only are they employing themselves, but potentially others.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/03/07/2706305/local-news-in-brief-rate-of-us.html

So whats different with Ireland there? Why aren't the unemployed going into business for themselves? Why aren't the jobless creating jobs?[/QUOTE]

Banks aren't lending, different bankruptcy laws, excessive/often pointless regulation etc..

Coriolanus

Overheal wrote: »

May I ask yous: whats your entrepreneurship rate? Right now in the United States we have higher college graduate rates than we have in the last few years and many of them are going to work for themselves, forming LLCs and such. The US is now a 15 year high in its Entrepreneurship rate. Not only are they employing themselves, but potentially others.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/03/07/2706305/local-news-in-brief-rate-of-us.html

So whats different with Ireland there? Why aren't the unemployed going into business for themselves? Why aren't the jobless creating jobs?

Personal bankruptcy is a much bigger restriction in Ireland than in America though. And I say this coming from a family where both parents are entreperneurs and I'll be going it alone myself, hopefully, within a few years.
If you mess up, it's literally a noose around your neck for the next 20-25 years whereas in the US you can get out of it in a relatively shorter period.

whoopdedoo

Overheal wrote: »

May I ask yous: whats your entrepreneurship rate? Right now in the United States we have higher college graduate rates than we have in the last few years and many of them are going to work for themselves, forming LLCs and such. The US is now a 15 year high in its Entrepreneurship rate. Not only are they employing themselves, but potentially others.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/03/07/2706305/local-news-in-brief-rate-of-us.html

So whats different with Ireland there? Why aren't the unemployed going into business for themselves? Why aren't the jobless creating jobs?

we were the first to be hit when the money dried up, how are we supposed to start up a business on €188 a week, paying rent of €75 and about €30 on food and 1 x 12.5g drum tobacco?!?

Wibbs

Overheal wrote: »

So whats different with Ireland there? Why aren't the unemployed going into business for themselves? Why aren't the jobless creating jobs?

Good point. One big issue is the powers that be really don't seem to like or are particularly supportive of self employed people. Plus if you do go bankrupt try getting investment again. In the US theyre more accepting of a few failed enterprises. Another issue(I know, I know) is the high dole here.

Ectoplasm

Overheal wrote: »

May I ask yous: whats your entrepreneurship rate? Right now in the United States we have higher college graduate rates than we have in the last few years and many of them are going to work for themselves, forming LLCs and such. The US is now a 15 year high in its Entrepreneurship rate. Not only are they employing themselves, but potentially others.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/03/07/2706305/local-news-in-brief-rate-of-us.html

So whats different with Ireland there? Why aren't the unemployed going into business for themselves? Why aren't the jobless creating jobs?

Actually there is a pretty strong rate of entrepreneurship in Ireland and there has been for a long time; with something like 90% of those employed being employed by small business, most of which were started by indigineous entrepreneurs.

I know that in 2008 according to GEM Ireland ranked fourth worldwide in the rate of early-stage entrepreneurial activity for 18 to 34-year-olds (behind the U.S., Australia, and New Zealand). I'm not entirely sure of what the rates are right now though.

There are definite barriers to entrepreneurship - credit is probably the biggest issue and it is MAJOR but there are others, such as a lack of incentives in terms of employment creation, high start up costs added to the inherent insecurity of self employment - if you fail, you're on your own and it's incredibly difficult to access social welfare. Faced with a choice, many people simply see the risks as outweighing any possible benefits.

ilovesleep

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Europe has treated Ireland like second class citizens over the last number of years. What they did regarding the bailouts was illegal - and what they're doing this weekend is illegal also.

Nothing they do is in Irelands interest, only Europes interest.

What are they doing this weekend?

I must have to say what the EU is doing is inhumane. Forcing bailout loans down the throats of troubled economies and forcing us into depressions.

In the US there was a banking crash and Lehmans were saved. But the whole continent shares the load and not just 1 or 2 member states.

Jimmy Garlic

The EU is structured around Germany and its interests. We can never win in this situation. It was alright for a while when they were buttering us up with handouts.. Now the honeymoon is over and the EU is going to screw us going forward.

Coriolanus

EMF2010 wrote: »

if you fail, you're on your own and it's incredibly difficult to access social welfare

That in particular needs to be addressed but it's actually an education issue not a social welfare one. The self-employed pay less prsi, but it's not a freebie, the reason they pay less is to give them more control. Anyone self employed should be putting that money into an income protection fund or a pension etc. At the very least, you can voluntarily pay the full rate of prsi and build up your credits as normal.
Like I said though, it's an education issue, most self employed don't know and the State makes no effort to support them through education and information of this type.

Overheal

Nevore wrote: »

Personal bankruptcy is a much bigger restriction in Ireland than in America though. And I say this coming from a family where both parents are entreperneurs and I'll be going it alone myself, hopefully, within a few years.
If you mess up, it's literally a noose around your neck for the next 20-25 years whereas in the US you can get out of it in a relatively shorter period.

I suspected as much, but didn't want to jump to any conclusion. I reckon what needs to happen is petition the government to be more permitting of new enterprise. Is that even possible? How much control does Ireland have over that sort of thing? Banking, education, etc

K-9

We voted No to Lisbon and unemployment sky rocketed. The raises have tailed of since thank God.

So we voted No to Lisbon, therefore it caused catastrophic unemployment, using the logic of the OP.

K-9

ilovesleep wrote: »

What are they doing this weekend?

I must have to say what the EU is doing is inhumane. Forcing bailout loans down the throats of troubled economies and forcing us into depressions.

In the US there was a banking crash and Lehmans were saved. But the whole continent shares the load and not just 1 or 2 member states.

Canada shares the load with the US?

Coriolanus

Overheal wrote: »

I suspected as much, but didn't want to jump to any conclusion. I reckon what needs to happen is petition the government to be more permitting of new enterprise. Is that even possible? How much control does Ireland have over that sort of thing? Banking, education, etc

There has been some talk on and off about easing the burden on bankruptcy's but not much has come of it. It all comes down to political will. It's not a sexy subject so most politicians don't want to know beyond a mealy mouthed hand wringing promise to try and get something mentioned in committe x that they're a member of.
Hard to believe but there hasn't been any major legislation enacted by the State at all, most of it is legacy legislation from before Independence. The Brits have long since overhauled the system for themselves but we still use it.

UsernameInUse

Overheal wrote: »

I suspected as much, but didn't want to jump to any conclusion. I reckon what needs to happen is petition the government to be more permitting of new enterprise. Is that even possible? How much control does Ireland have over that sort of thing? Banking, education, etc

In my opinion, the educational sector leaves a lot to be desired. Most debates on the subject revolve around public system reforms, failing to even consider any other alternatives.
A particular thorn in my side is the way the E.U regulate trade within it's members. There are huge tariffs and regulations in place.

Coriolanus

UsernameInUse wrote: »

A particular thorn in my side is the way the E.U regulate trade within it's members. There are huge tariffs and regulations in place.

Eh, such as?

southsiderosie

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Before Ireland joined the EU, it had full employment and total debt was 60% of its GNP. Today its real underemployment is up to 30%, 1 out of every 2 men over 15 and of a working age is not working full time. And our total debt is up to 700% of GNP.

We don't have control over our interest rates, we have no control over our banks, we have no control over our currency and exchange rate policy, our fiscal policy is incrementally being assimilated by the EU and EU directives dictate our company law as indeed most of our social choice is dictated from Brussels.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-eu-is-preparing-to-kill-irish-democracy-2595325.html

Scathing attack by the Independent. More to come from this anti-Euro debate in the coming months.

I have come to the conclusion over the last several months that there are an awful lot of people in Ireland who either suffer from collective amnesia or are absolutely delusional about the state of the Irish economy before the 1990s.

First, I an assuming you mean 'before Ireland joined the euro' rather than 'before Ireland joined the EU'. Those are two separate issues.

When Ireland joined the euro, yes unemployment was low, and government spending was under control. Why? Because the government spent most of the previous decade keeping its fiscal house in order so as to prepare to meet the convergence requirements to join the euro zone. The quest to join the euro provided the only extended period of fiscal and monetary sanity in Ireland's sorry economic history. And from the late 80s through the 1990s, Ireland converged with Europe in other key areas as well: more women joined the workforce, and more people got third level education.

Once Ireland was in the euro, arguably ECB interest rates were too low given how hot the Irish economy was at the time. But since the government could not control monetary policy, they should have cooled the economy through fiscal and tax policy. Instead, they threw petrol onto the fire.

The saddest part in all of this is that joining the euro should have been the culmination of years of hard work and hard lessons learned as Ireland tried to become a modern European republic. Yet the second Ireland made it to the promised land, its political leaders turned around and engaged in levels of fiscal profligacy more akin to a banana republic. And for these sins, they were re-elected - multiple times.

It is time to stop blaming the EU for all of Ireland's problems. The country had a golden opportunity and pissed it away in favor of cheap electioneering, a get-rich-quick mania that became pervasive, and little to no citizen oversight of government behavior. If Ireland left the euro and the EU tomorrow, the Germans would not give a ****; severing ties to the EU and restoring the punt would only serve to crush working and middle class people, scare off investors, and crush the banks of Ireland's most important trading partner, Britain. Yes, this sounds like a wonderful plan.

tl; dr - Quit whinging about eurocrats. Ireland had its chance, and your democratically elected government ****ed it up, big time.

yoshytoshy

What a gob****e of a thread.

UsernameInUse

Nevore wrote: »

Eh, such as?

The tariffs in place between E.U members are the rest of the world. I assume you thought I meant trade between EU nations?

amacachi

Overheal wrote: »

I suspected as much, but didn't want to jump to any conclusion. I reckon what needs to happen is petition the government to be more permitting of new enterprise. Is that even possible? How much control does Ireland have over that sort of thing? Banking, education, etc

Of course it's possible. Our bankruptcy laws are so tough that some people have temporarily moved to the UK to declare bankruptcy there instead.
Education? We're completely in control of education but have done little to nothing with it over the last few decades. Well, they're making higher level leaving cert maths easier if that counts.:rolleyes:

Coriolanus

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The tariffs in place between E.U members are the rest of the world. I assume you thought I meant trade between EU nations?

Well, that is what you wrote. :P "regulate trade within it's members"

amacachi

southsiderosie wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion over the last several months that there are an awful lot of people in Ireland who either suffer from collective amnesia or are absolutely delusional about the state of the Irish economy before the 1990s.

I also sometimes wonder if I'm the only person on boards from an Irish working/lower class background.

southsiderosie

amacachi wrote: »

I also sometimes wonder if I'm the only person on boards from an Irish working/lower class background.

Not from what I've read on here, no.

amacachi

southsiderosie wrote: »

Not from what I've read on here, no.

From the idyllic situation most people here came from back in the 70s/80s they must have a different definition of working class.

southsiderosie

amacachi wrote: »

From the idyllic situation most people here came from back in the 70s/80s they must have a different definition of working class.

Yes, this is what I am confused about. The 80s were terrible, yet I have seen people on boards claim that Ireland was fine and dandy until the mean old EU came along and ruined everything. WTF?

amacachi

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes, this is what I am confused about. The 80s were terrible, yet I have seen people on boards claim that Ireland was fine and dandy until the mean old EU came along and ruined everything. WTF?

As I said, that makes me wonder where those people are from. It was the mid-to-late nineties before things were anything close to what I'd call fine for my family.

AskMyChocolate

amacachi wrote: »

The EU created the bubble? Wasn't our policy of no property tax and the huge tax cuts on all elements of housing construction? Or the corruption in the banks? Nothing to do with that? Good to know.

Oh for God's sake don't be such a naive child. The bubble was created by extremely wealthy people, some European, some not, in a game to widen even further the gap between the haves and the have-nots. Sarkozy, Merkel and Kenny are all traitors in the pocket of men like Peter Sutherland and Denis O'Brien. They will be well reimbursed for their treachery. This idea of setting the Irish people against the French or German people is an old tried and tested method. The IMF will divert all public assets into the hands of the well-connected private bankers who brought us to this pass. Nothing ever changes. How do you think men like Spartacus, Ghandhi or Hitler ever achieved a modicum of power in the first place?

K-9

amacachi wrote: »

As I said, that makes me wonder where those people are from. It was the mid-to-late nineties before things were anything close to what I'd call fine for my family.

Yep. Remember though the Euro only came in around 2002, we had converging policies on it, in the late 90's, low interest rates etc. Property prices started rising substantially from about 95 but really took off around 99/00.

We had tax policies openly supporting and fueling the market. Indeed when the market stalled in 06 the Governments response was to double Mortgage Interest Relief for buyers and the opposition wanted to slash Stamp Duty. Shame they couldn't have scrapped interest relief to dampen the market in 02, as the Bacon report recommended.

Aidric

I don't remember any of these threads when Ireland was creaming off the EU.

amacachi

K-9 wrote: »

Yep. Remember though the Euro only came in around 2002, we had converging policies on it, in the late 90's, low interest rates etc. Property prices started rising substantially from about 95 but really took off around 99/00.

We had tax policies openly supporting and fueling the market. Indeed when the market stalled in 06 the Governments response was to double Mortgage Interest Relief for buyers and the opposition wanted to slash Stamp Duty. Shame they couldn't have scrapped interest relief to dampen the market in 02, as the Bacon report recommended.

I know that, and kinda made that point already. People are pointing to our lack of control over interest rates as the cause of the bubble when it's obvious to most people that they were one cause, which could have been counter-balance, and that we probably wouldn't have set them any higher.

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Oh for God's sake don't be such a naive child. The bubble was created by extremely wealthy people, some European, some not, in a game to widen even further the gap between the haves and the have-nots. Sarkozy, Merkel and Kenny are all traitors in the pocket of men like Peter Sutherland and Denis O'Brien. They will be well reimbursed for their treachery. This idea of setting the Irish people against the French or German people is an old tried and tested method. The IMF will divert all public assets into the hands of the well-connected private bankers who brought us to this pass. Nothing ever changes. How do you think men like Spartacus, Ghandhi or Hitler ever achieved a modicum of power in the first place?

Thanks for that but if I want to read that kind of crap I'll head over to the CT forum.

AskMyChocolate

catbear wrote: »

Don't forget that that full time employment also meant many women had to leave their employment when they got married even if they didn't want to. It seems Ireland just wants to continuously hurt itself.

Don't forget either that it was possible for a woman to leave employment when she got married and raise kids on a one income average wage. She wasn't obliged to go out to work the moment her husband came in the door, just to pay the mortgage and put food on the table.

AskMyChocolate

amacachi wrote: »

I know that, and kinda made that point already. People are pointing to our lack of control over interest rates as the cause of the bubble when it's obvious to most people that they were one cause, which could have been counter-balance, and that we probably wouldn't have set them any higher.

Thanks for that but if I want to read that kind of crap I'll head over to the CT forum.

A thoughtful and insightful rebuttal sir. But are you sure you really want to head over to the CT forum? They might be crazy, but they have as little time for smug self-satisfied condescension over there, believe it or not.