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E.U & YesMen Are Preparing To Kill Democracy In Ireland

UsernameInUse

Before Ireland joined the EU, it had full employment and total debt was 60% of its GNP. Today its real underemployment is up to 30%, 1 out of every 2 men over 15 and of a working age is not working full time. And our total debt is up to 700% of GNP.

We don't have control over our interest rates, we have no control over our banks, we have no control over our currency and exchange rate policy, our fiscal policy is incrementally being assimilated by the EU and EU directives dictate our company law as indeed most of our social choice is dictated from Brussels.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-eu-is-preparing-to-kill-irish-democracy-2595325.html

Scathing attack by the Independent. More to come from this anti-Euro debate in the coming months.

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K-9

ilovesleep wrote: »

What are they doing this weekend?

I must have to say what the EU is doing is inhumane. Forcing bailout loans down the throats of troubled economies and forcing us into depressions.

In the US there was a banking crash and Lehmans were saved. But the whole continent shares the load and not just 1 or 2 member states.

Canada shares the load with the US?

Coriolanus

Overheal wrote: »

I suspected as much, but didn't want to jump to any conclusion. I reckon what needs to happen is petition the government to be more permitting of new enterprise. Is that even possible? How much control does Ireland have over that sort of thing? Banking, education, etc

There has been some talk on and off about easing the burden on bankruptcy's but not much has come of it. It all comes down to political will. It's not a sexy subject so most politicians don't want to know beyond a mealy mouthed hand wringing promise to try and get something mentioned in committe x that they're a member of.
Hard to believe but there hasn't been any major legislation enacted by the State at all, most of it is legacy legislation from before Independence. The Brits have long since overhauled the system for themselves but we still use it.

UsernameInUse

Overheal wrote: »

I suspected as much, but didn't want to jump to any conclusion. I reckon what needs to happen is petition the government to be more permitting of new enterprise. Is that even possible? How much control does Ireland have over that sort of thing? Banking, education, etc

In my opinion, the educational sector leaves a lot to be desired. Most debates on the subject revolve around public system reforms, failing to even consider any other alternatives.
A particular thorn in my side is the way the E.U regulate trade within it's members. There are huge tariffs and regulations in place.

Coriolanus

UsernameInUse wrote: »

A particular thorn in my side is the way the E.U regulate trade within it's members. There are huge tariffs and regulations in place.

Eh, such as?

southsiderosie

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Before Ireland joined the EU, it had full employment and total debt was 60% of its GNP. Today its real underemployment is up to 30%, 1 out of every 2 men over 15 and of a working age is not working full time. And our total debt is up to 700% of GNP.

We don't have control over our interest rates, we have no control over our banks, we have no control over our currency and exchange rate policy, our fiscal policy is incrementally being assimilated by the EU and EU directives dictate our company law as indeed most of our social choice is dictated from Brussels.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-eu-is-preparing-to-kill-irish-democracy-2595325.html

Scathing attack by the Independent. More to come from this anti-Euro debate in the coming months.

I have come to the conclusion over the last several months that there are an awful lot of people in Ireland who either suffer from collective amnesia or are absolutely delusional about the state of the Irish economy before the 1990s.

First, I an assuming you mean 'before Ireland joined the euro' rather than 'before Ireland joined the EU'. Those are two separate issues.

When Ireland joined the euro, yes unemployment was low, and government spending was under control. Why? Because the government spent most of the previous decade keeping its fiscal house in order so as to prepare to meet the convergence requirements to join the euro zone. The quest to join the euro provided the only extended period of fiscal and monetary sanity in Ireland's sorry economic history. And from the late 80s through the 1990s, Ireland converged with Europe in other key areas as well: more women joined the workforce, and more people got third level education.

Once Ireland was in the euro, arguably ECB interest rates were too low given how hot the Irish economy was at the time. But since the government could not control monetary policy, they should have cooled the economy through fiscal and tax policy. Instead, they threw petrol onto the fire.

The saddest part in all of this is that joining the euro should have been the culmination of years of hard work and hard lessons learned as Ireland tried to become a modern European republic. Yet the second Ireland made it to the promised land, its political leaders turned around and engaged in levels of fiscal profligacy more akin to a banana republic. And for these sins, they were re-elected - multiple times.

It is time to stop blaming the EU for all of Ireland's problems. The country had a golden opportunity and pissed it away in favor of cheap electioneering, a get-rich-quick mania that became pervasive, and little to no citizen oversight of government behavior. If Ireland left the euro and the EU tomorrow, the Germans would not give a ****; severing ties to the EU and restoring the punt would only serve to crush working and middle class people, scare off investors, and crush the banks of Ireland's most important trading partner, Britain. Yes, this sounds like a wonderful plan.

tl; dr - Quit whinging about eurocrats. Ireland had its chance, and your democratically elected government ****ed it up, big time.

yoshytoshy

What a gob****e of a thread.

UsernameInUse

Nevore wrote: »

Eh, such as?

The tariffs in place between E.U members are the rest of the world. I assume you thought I meant trade between EU nations?

amacachi

Overheal wrote: »

I suspected as much, but didn't want to jump to any conclusion. I reckon what needs to happen is petition the government to be more permitting of new enterprise. Is that even possible? How much control does Ireland have over that sort of thing? Banking, education, etc

Of course it's possible. Our bankruptcy laws are so tough that some people have temporarily moved to the UK to declare bankruptcy there instead.
Education? We're completely in control of education but have done little to nothing with it over the last few decades. Well, they're making higher level leaving cert maths easier if that counts.:rolleyes:

Coriolanus

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The tariffs in place between E.U members are the rest of the world. I assume you thought I meant trade between EU nations?

Well, that is what you wrote. :P "regulate trade within it's members"

amacachi

southsiderosie wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion over the last several months that there are an awful lot of people in Ireland who either suffer from collective amnesia or are absolutely delusional about the state of the Irish economy before the 1990s.

I also sometimes wonder if I'm the only person on boards from an Irish working/lower class background.

southsiderosie

amacachi wrote: »

I also sometimes wonder if I'm the only person on boards from an Irish working/lower class background.

Not from what I've read on here, no.

amacachi

southsiderosie wrote: »

Not from what I've read on here, no.

From the idyllic situation most people here came from back in the 70s/80s they must have a different definition of working class.

southsiderosie

amacachi wrote: »

From the idyllic situation most people here came from back in the 70s/80s they must have a different definition of working class.

Yes, this is what I am confused about. The 80s were terrible, yet I have seen people on boards claim that Ireland was fine and dandy until the mean old EU came along and ruined everything. WTF?

amacachi

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes, this is what I am confused about. The 80s were terrible, yet I have seen people on boards claim that Ireland was fine and dandy until the mean old EU came along and ruined everything. WTF?

As I said, that makes me wonder where those people are from. It was the mid-to-late nineties before things were anything close to what I'd call fine for my family.

AskMyChocolate

amacachi wrote: »

The EU created the bubble? Wasn't our policy of no property tax and the huge tax cuts on all elements of housing construction? Or the corruption in the banks? Nothing to do with that? Good to know.

Oh for God's sake don't be such a naive child. The bubble was created by extremely wealthy people, some European, some not, in a game to widen even further the gap between the haves and the have-nots. Sarkozy, Merkel and Kenny are all traitors in the pocket of men like Peter Sutherland and Denis O'Brien. They will be well reimbursed for their treachery. This idea of setting the Irish people against the French or German people is an old tried and tested method. The IMF will divert all public assets into the hands of the well-connected private bankers who brought us to this pass. Nothing ever changes. How do you think men like Spartacus, Ghandhi or Hitler ever achieved a modicum of power in the first place?

K-9

amacachi wrote: »

As I said, that makes me wonder where those people are from. It was the mid-to-late nineties before things were anything close to what I'd call fine for my family.

Yep. Remember though the Euro only came in around 2002, we had converging policies on it, in the late 90's, low interest rates etc. Property prices started rising substantially from about 95 but really took off around 99/00.

We had tax policies openly supporting and fueling the market. Indeed when the market stalled in 06 the Governments response was to double Mortgage Interest Relief for buyers and the opposition wanted to slash Stamp Duty. Shame they couldn't have scrapped interest relief to dampen the market in 02, as the Bacon report recommended.

Aidric

I don't remember any of these threads when Ireland was creaming off the EU.

amacachi

K-9 wrote: »

Yep. Remember though the Euro only came in around 2002, we had converging policies on it, in the late 90's, low interest rates etc. Property prices started rising substantially from about 95 but really took off around 99/00.

We had tax policies openly supporting and fueling the market. Indeed when the market stalled in 06 the Governments response was to double Mortgage Interest Relief for buyers and the opposition wanted to slash Stamp Duty. Shame they couldn't have scrapped interest relief to dampen the market in 02, as the Bacon report recommended.

I know that, and kinda made that point already. People are pointing to our lack of control over interest rates as the cause of the bubble when it's obvious to most people that they were one cause, which could have been counter-balance, and that we probably wouldn't have set them any higher.

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Oh for God's sake don't be such a naive child. The bubble was created by extremely wealthy people, some European, some not, in a game to widen even further the gap between the haves and the have-nots. Sarkozy, Merkel and Kenny are all traitors in the pocket of men like Peter Sutherland and Denis O'Brien. They will be well reimbursed for their treachery. This idea of setting the Irish people against the French or German people is an old tried and tested method. The IMF will divert all public assets into the hands of the well-connected private bankers who brought us to this pass. Nothing ever changes. How do you think men like Spartacus, Ghandhi or Hitler ever achieved a modicum of power in the first place?

Thanks for that but if I want to read that kind of crap I'll head over to the CT forum.

AskMyChocolate

catbear wrote: »

Don't forget that that full time employment also meant many women had to leave their employment when they got married even if they didn't want to. It seems Ireland just wants to continuously hurt itself.

Don't forget either that it was possible for a woman to leave employment when she got married and raise kids on a one income average wage. She wasn't obliged to go out to work the moment her husband came in the door, just to pay the mortgage and put food on the table.

AskMyChocolate

amacachi wrote: »

I know that, and kinda made that point already. People are pointing to our lack of control over interest rates as the cause of the bubble when it's obvious to most people that they were one cause, which could have been counter-balance, and that we probably wouldn't have set them any higher.

Thanks for that but if I want to read that kind of crap I'll head over to the CT forum.

A thoughtful and insightful rebuttal sir. But are you sure you really want to head over to the CT forum? They might be crazy, but they have as little time for smug self-satisfied condescension over there, believe it or not.

K-9

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Don't forget either that it was possible for a woman to leave employment when she got married and raise kids on a one income average wage. She wasn't obliged to go out to work the moment her husband came in the door, just to pay the mortgage and put food on the table.

That was more the Bubble though. Prices should be more affordable when the prices bottom out and banks lend again, nobody knows yet what level they'll drop too.

ejmaztec

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Europe has treated Ireland like second class citizens over the last number of years. What they did regarding the bailouts was illegal - and what they're doing this weekend is illegal also.

Nothing they do is in Irelands interest, only Europes interest.

Strange that Ireland wasn't complaining when the EU brought the country into the 20th century in 1973, and ploughed billions into the place.

Overheal

ejmaztec wrote: »

Strange that Ireland wasn't complaining when the EU brought the country into the 20th century in 1973, and ploughed billions into the place.

Hmm. I think I've seen this before.

Mike 1972

K-9 wrote: »

Yep. Remember though the Euro only came in around 2002, .

January 1999

Before that we had the ECU

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Don't forget either that it was possible for a woman to leave employment when she got married.

In many cases it was compulsary

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

She wasn't obliged to go out to work the moment her husband came in the door, .

"She" still isint

Offy

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Don't forget either that it was possible for a woman to leave employment when she got married and raise kids on a one income average wage. She wasn't obliged to go out to work the moment her husband came in the door, just to pay the mortgage and put food on the table.

How I long for those days.

Offy

amacachi wrote: »

I know that, and kinda made that point already. People are pointing to our lack of control over interest rates as the cause of the bubble when it's obvious to most people that they were one cause, which could have been counter-balance, and that we probably wouldn't have set them any higher.

Thanks for that but if I want to read that kind of crap I'll head over to the CT forum.

-1 rubbish

ejmaztec

Overheal wrote: »

Hmm. I think I've seen this before.

The downside was the arrival of Fine Gou'ald, the new force in Irish politics. :P

amacachi

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

They might be crazy, but they have as little time for smug self-satisfied condescension over there, believe it or not.

LOL.

Celly Smunt

We are in the situation now where we need to default and tell Europe to GTFO,if we keep paying back their extortionate bailouts and loans they'll take us as a country that they can walk all over to save the euro at Ireland's expense.We need to stand up,default,and show bluff that we're not afraid to lose the euro.

southsiderosie

pmcmahon wrote: »

We are in the situation now where we need to default and tell Europe to GTFO,if we keep paying back their extortionate bailouts and loans they'll take us as a country that they can walk all over to save the euro at Ireland's expense.We need to stand up,default,and show bluff that we're not afraid to lose the euro.

Clearly you are not afraid to lose your savings and your ability to buy consumer goods either.

Good luck with that.