Should we be making it harder to remain on the social welfare gravy train

fliball123

Hi all,

firstly I hope this post finds everyone in good form on such a nice morning..Well nice until we realise how fecked the country is.

Now I am known as someone who is vehimently against the waste and over paying of the public service and I stand by that. But the other areas of spend also needs to be tackled just some ideas.

The social welfare issue is a big one, The government should no longer give cash out for anyone claiming social welfare, childrens allowence and bring in a card system and give them a certain amount of credit which can be used only for certain things.

For example these cards/credit cannot be used to buy alcohol, smokes, pay for sky sport, or any other luxuries that people think they are entitled to.

The way I see it we should be only paying for the bare essentials. If someone signing on comes in with proof that they have an interview then the appropriate busfare can be given, also a once of payment for a shirt/tie/slacks and shoes and equivilent for a lady. Then maybe money for them to be dry cleaned the person proves they have an interview.

We need people to get back to work and when I read of two foreign nationals who were overed a salary of about 28k and they were told by their wifes that they are entitled to more on the dole it got me thinking how crazy this little country is.

Now I know there are people trying to get jobs and I am not poking at their misfortune but I find it hard to swallow as someone who is up at 5:45 in the morning and not home will 7:pm that night that I am struggling with bills and to pay for food and to see my kid growing up when so many who are sitting on their holes and being paid so much..

If I was in charge I would no longer pay cash . Credit system .. we can no longer afford to have people picking and choosing what they spend their social welfare on or childs allowence. This money should be kept for the essentails.

anyone any thaughts

average_runner

In fairness i believe that every interview you do, you should have to present a form of id and your PRSI number, so if they offer you the job and you turn it down they can report it to the social welfare.

ronano

I think the credit option or a variation of it is a good idea but I still think a certain amountvof cash is needed for general day to day. I got to lol at the busfare/shirt comment you've never been in the depressing situation of stepping inside a Dole office. they would take 4 weeks to approve you for busfare and shirt. there needs to be reform on both sides of the Dole issue,how its run from employees side and allocated to the public. my only problem really with your suggestion is how does it combat public waste,the same amount is giveñ out,only difference is what its spent on,I'd imagine roughly the same money is put into the economy,if anything people needed for paperwork along with paperwork itself make it more wasteful.

bad post written on phone

padma

good idea, maybe in time peoples wages can be structured along those lines, to pay the bills, petrol in the car, maintenance fees, food stamps so ye can make sandwiches going to work. One flask with a tea bag for every work day. Help get this little country out of the mess it's in. Maybe stop people buying their own brand new cars on finance and go in to a pooling system. That way the economy will really see no cash at all.

fliball123

ronano wrote: »

I think the credit option or a variation of it is a good idea but I still think a certain amountvof cash is needed for general day to day. I got to lol at the busfare/shirt comment you've never been in the depressing situation of stepping inside a Dole office. they would take 4 weeks to approve you for busfare and shirt. there needs to be reform on both sides of the Dole issue,how its run from employees side and allocated to the public. my only problem really with your suggestion is how does it combat public waste,the same amount is giveñ out,only difference is what its spent on,I'd imagine roughly the same money is put into the economy,if anything people needed for paperwork along with paperwork itself make it more wasteful.

bad post written on phone

Aggreed the gov need to get the system in place before going over..I mean it would be fairly simple ala a credit card...It just cuts out ****e like micky money day...and people taking the piss out of it

fliball123

padma wrote: »

good idea, maybe in time peoples wages can be structured along those lines, to pay the bills, petrol in the car, maintenance fees, food stamps so ye can make sandwiches going to work. One flask with a tea bag for every work day. Help get this little country out of the mess it's in. Maybe stop people buying their own brand new cars on finance and go in to a pooling system. That way the economy will really see no cash at all.

I sense some sarcasm...look if your working your geting your money on your on steam..If you want to blow it all on a horse..stick it up your ass or up your nose thats your business but when the tax payer is paying this bill its our business how its spent..and there would be no effect on the economy....as it should only be allowed used in Ireland so there is no chance of taking this card abroad. In fact the amount of people I know saying ahh sure I have saved the childrens allowence I am going on holiday with this..Surely this is a good thing or am I being naive?

ei.sdraob

fliball123 wrote: »

Aggreed the gov need to get the system in place before going over..I mean it would be fairly simple ala a credit card...It just cuts out ****e like micky money day...and people taking the piss out of it

Thats what they do in Iceland

You go to community welfare office and pick the supplies such as food from the warehouse as you need them.

The minister was very blunt straight to the point as to why this is done with "We dont need to be sending money to Eastern Europe at this time..."

Spudmonkey

Nhead wrote: »

What about bringing back the poorhouse?

As opposed to un-constructive remarks like this, perhaps you would have an idea how to stop spending 2/3s of the governments yearly intake on welfare??

fliball123

Spudmonkey wrote: »

As opposed to un-constructive remarks like this, perhaps you would have an idea how to stop spending 2/3s of the governments yearly intake on welfare??

I mean I am not saying to pay less by all means give the same amount all this does is it keeps the money in Ireland, it stops it being frivilously being spent on binges and other sh1te...I dont see how anyone on the dole could say that they are being hard done by unless they are spending this cash on luxuries and if they are well then they should not be getting it

Spudmonkey

This was a thread topic before albeit in AH.

The general consensus was that it was demeaning way of administering welfare, even though it would probably mean that the right people are getting the right things, any money isn't being wasted on non-essentials.

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

I sense some sarcasm...look if your working your geting your money on your on steam..If you want to blow it all on a horse..stick it up your ass or up your nose thats your business but when the tax payer is paying this bill its our business how its spent..and there would be no effect on the economy....as it should only be allowed used in Ireland so there is no chance of taking this card abroad. In fact the amount of people I know saying ahh sure I have saved the childrens allowence I am going on holiday with this..Surely this is a good thing or am I being naive?

In essence what I'm actually getting to is the idea of getting rid of money altogether. As if half a million people are not receiving cash, plus the other quarter of a million on mickey mouse adult education schemes, sure thats a large portion of the country with no cash, why doesnt everyone do this, happy days for all. Look, everytime someone on the dole fills their car up with petrol 50/60% goes to the taxman, same as you. The only difference really is you pay a tax on the money you earned, thats the only extra tax you paid in comparison to someone on the dole, not too bad if your still getting a few extra hundred quid a week than them.

We need to be careful, talking about the unemployed in the way you are is lets face it stereotypical. I'm sure you know plenty of people out of work for a year or so who are so in debt they can't move outside their house. Some have committed suicide due to the financial burdens they've found themselves in. As for the two lads who refused 28k a year, the employer should have hired someone who has a mortgage, he did get 200 odd c.v's

Spudmonkey

fliball123 wrote: »

I mean I am not saying to pay less by all means give the same amount all this does is it keeps the money in Ireland, it stops it being frivilously being spent on binges and other sh1te...I dont see how anyone on the dole could say that they are being hard done by unless they are spending this cash on luxuries and if they are well then they should not be getting it

All well and good stopping winos spending their welfare in offies and down the bookies. It ignores the elephant in the room however which is the governments maths.

later12

The civil service cannot even means test children's allowance allocations to to time and expense, can you imagine extending such regulation to every single expenditure by social welfare recipients from a box of matches to a sack of potatoes? Your average person probably engages in about ten financial transactions per day; multiply that by over 400,000 people signing on and staff arbitrarily deciding what expenses are necessary and which are not? Jesus, where do people get these hare brained ideas? Do people actually think that is a runner, or is it just some odd chip on their shoulder about welfare?

Surely it would be better to just come out and oppose welfare in itself as opposed to such an expensive, time consuming and downright messy and hugely subjective approach as this.

fliball123

padma wrote: »

In essence what I'm actually getting to is the idea of getting rid of money altogether. As if half a million people are not receiving cash, plus the other quarter of a million on mickey mouse adult education schemes, sure thats a large portion of the country with no cash, why doesnt everyone do this, happy days for all. Look, everytime someone on the dole fills their car up with petrol 50/60% goes to the taxman, same as you. The only difference really is you pay a tax on the money you earned, thats the only extra tax you paid in comparison to someone on the dole, not too bad if your still getting a few extra hundred quid a week than them.

We need to be careful, talking about the unemployed in the way you are is lets face it stereotypical. I'm sure you know plenty of people out of work for a year or so who are so in debt they can't move outside their house. Some have committed suicide due to the financial burdens they've found themselves in. As for the two lads who refused 28k a year, the employer should have hired someone who has a mortgage, he did get 200 odd c.v's

emm lets look at this in detail Padma
The country is broke. My tax has been increased to the point where I am left with about 30 quid a week for non essentials ... the typical tax payer not only pays tax, they pay to get in and out of work, they pay rent/mortgage they must pay house and life insurance if you have a mortgage...not to mention heating, lighting and food

So the person on the dole gets allowence for rent or if they have kid paid for in full .. plus heating lighting and the rest..

In fact a friend of mine is on the dole he has a kid and he has more expendable cash at the end of the week than I do...How is that fair?

I have said I wouldnt cut the level of money given I would just transfer it to credit and cut out people being able to take this cash out of the country and cut out people going on benders or holidays with it..

Dont get me wrong I was unemployed back in the early 90s for a couple of weeks and it did me no harm...I think the suicides have a lot more to do with the individual than the unemployment..Could be wrong on that do....

The employer in entitled to get the best person for the job which these 2 guys were...Employers should report people who do not take up jobs

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

emm lets look at this in detail Padma
The country is broke. My tax has been increased to the point where I am left with about 30 quid a week for non essentials ... the typical tax payer not only pays tax, they pay to get in and out of work, they pay rent/mortgage they must pay house and life insurance if you have a mortgage...not to mention heating, lighting and food

So the person on the dole gets allowence for rent or if they have kid paid for in full .. plus heating lighting and the rest..

In fact a friend of mine is on the dole he has a kid and he has more expendable cash at the end of the week than I do...How is that fair?

I have said I wouldnt cut the level of money given I would just transfer it to credit and cut out people being able to take this cash out of the country and cut out people going on benders or holidays with it..

Dont get me wrong I was unemployed back in the early 90s for a couple of weeks and it did me no harm...I think the suicides have a lot more to do with the individual than the unemployment..Could be wrong on that do....

The employer in entitled to get the best person for the job which these 2 guys were...Employers should report people who do not take up jobs

I see your point, though you have to admit people who work also take their money out of the country on holidays. As for going on a bender, sure the tax man gets that anyway. The only thing I can see really is cash is a problem for everyone.

My friend for example lost his job, gets 188 euro a week, 4 euro during winter for heating, and 15 euro a month for mortgage relief. He has no money. He is on the dole. He's credit card is maxed. He has a loan out he can't repay. He is constantly in and out of the bank looking for an extension on a moratorium.

Fact is he doesn't get his lighting and heating paid for, he doesn't get his mortgage paid for. He is out of work a year now and the prospects of a job haven't appeared. Minimum wage jobs aren't there anymore. He would take on a minimum wage job but hasn't had any luck probably because he is overskilled.

What I'm saying is you aren't the only one in a bad situation and the welfare isn't the gravy train that your making it out to be for a large proportion of the recipients on it.

fliball123

padma wrote: »

I see your point, though you have to admit people who work also take their money out of the country on holidays. As for going on a bender, sure the tax man gets that anyway. The only thing I can see really is cash is a problem for everyone.

My friend for example lost his job, gets 188 euro a week, 4 euro during winter for heating, and 15 euro a month for mortgage relief. He has no money. He is on the dole. He's credit card is maxed. He has a loan out he can't repay. He is constantly in and out of the bank looking for an extension on a moratorium.

Fact is he doesn't get his lighting and heating paid for, he doesn't get his mortgage paid for. He is out of work a year now and the prospects of a job haven't appeared. Minimum wage jobs aren't there anymore. He would take on a minimum wage job but hasn't had any luck probably because he is overskilled.

What I'm saying is you aren't the only one in a bad situation and the welfare isn't the gravy train that your making it out to be for a large proportion of the recipients on it.

Is he not living in the house without paying a mortgage??? if he is this is essentially getting it for free ..in this country its very hard to take a house off someone..

The problem is do that the tax payer is paying for this and it is unsustainable

zom

@Fliball123 - are you at work at the moment? Where do you work? Can you use internet at work?

Talking about welfare spent on alcohol/gambling - that activities are one of most taxed recreations and it's the easiest way to have money back to state.
Imagine foreigners who spend most of their dole to support their families or build a home in their country? Most of money paid to them is flying away from Ireland.
I red someone on that forum telling that he works with foreigner who use to save his salary and use to buy new cars or go for overseas holiday. THEY SHOULD INTEGRATE with society and spend their salary on beer and horses HERE, in IRELAND!

Spudmonkey

zom wrote: »

I red someone on that forum telling that he works with foreigner who use to save his salary and use to buy new cars or go for overseas holiday. THEY SHOULD INTEGRATE with society and spend their salary on beer and horses HERE, in IRELAND!

Even thought this is probably only a small proportion of people who are most likely long term welfare recipients, why should they get money to spend on this and then cry fowl when their amount is reduced.

Sir Oxman

fliball123 wrote: »

I sense some sarcasm...look if your working your geting your money on your on steam..If you want to blow it all on a horse..stick it up your ass or up your nose thats your business but when the tax payer is paying this bill its our business how its spent..and there would be no effect on the economy....as it should only be allowed used in Ireland so there is no chance of taking this card abroad. In fact the amount of people I know saying ahh sure I have saved the childrens allowence I am going on holiday with this..Surely this is a good thing or am I being naive?

You do know Child Benefit is a universal allowance? You keep mentioning the 'dole' as if it that encompasses every welfare payment in the country.

For the purposes of your thread, I'm assuming the child benefit holiday savers are out of work as well? (just so it fits in with your OP)
How about immediately ceasing payment of this welfare to everyone? That'd save a heap, no?

Instead of finding ways to further demean people who have lost their livelihoods, why not stop referring to every benefit in the country as the 'dole', distinguish in your posts who your anecdotal child benefit holiday savers are and come up with something a bit more novel and less stupid than food stamps and loans of suits for interviews.

If you are ever unfortunate enough to lose your job wouldn't this be better and fairer for you being on 'the dole' (depending on your employment track record of course):

1st year of unemployment: 80% of salary paid (maybe a max ceiling)- no other benefit
after that, everything is means-tested, maybe a sliding scale over further years so that welfare can be targetted to those who actually need it after all that is the purpose of it.

For that universal social welfare allowance of child benefit - means tested from the start for everyone.

fliball123

later10 wrote: »

The civil service cannot even means test children's allowance allocations to to time and expense, can you imagine extending such regulation to every single expenditure by social welfare recipients from a box of matches to a sack of potatoes? Your average person probably engages in about ten financial transactions per day; multiply that by over 400,000 people signing on and staff arbitrarily deciding what expenses are necessary and which are not? Jesus, where do people get these hare brained ideas? Do people actually think that is a runner, or is it just some odd chip on their shoulder about welfare?

Surely it would be better to just come out and oppose welfare in itself as opposed to such an expensive, time consuming and downright messy and hugely subjective approach as this.

Well thats another problem...but surely if credit card systems can be created..We own the fecking banks...surely there would not be too much involved in taking technology that already exists and using it for these people...god forbid maybe if the gov negotiated with the likes of dunnes, tesco adli and the rest and said look we have credit card system.

The public sector should be hammered every time it is shown to be ineffiecient...

Also welfare does need to be cut aswell

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

Is he not living in the house without paying a mortgage??? if he is this is essentially getting it for free ..in this country its very hard to take a house off someone..

The problem is do that the tax payer is paying for this and it is unsustainable

He has just received a three month moratorium. Thats it. It is the bank who is out of pocket for three months, not the taxpayer. It is what it is a moratorium.

Put another way, we got roughly 400,000 extra housing stock in this country. We got x amount of people on a housing waiting list with their local housing authority receiving rent supplement which goes to private landlords. A massive savings could be made if Nama and the likes sell on the housing stock on their books to local authorities. Then those on the dole would be paying a percentage of their dole directly to the state rather than to private landlords. There is a massive savings there which could be tapped in to. Remember there is a Human rights declaration

Article 25.

• (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

zom

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Even thought this is probably only a small proportion of people who are most likely long term welfare recipients, why should they get money to spend on this and then cry fowl when their amount is reduced.

You've got me wrong. I meant that most foreigners are actually very humble people who don't spend their money frivolously on beer or computer games. And they can live for much less than REGULAR IRISH. Even if they have to rent or paid for school.

fliball123

gambiaman wrote: »

You do know Child Benefit is a universal allowance? You keep mentioning the 'dole' as if it that encompasses every welfare payment in the country.

For the purposes of your thread, I'm assuming the child benefit holiday savers are out of work as well? (just so it fits in with your OP)
How about immediately ceasing payment of this welfare to everyone? That'd save a heap, no?

Instead of finding ways to further demean people who have lost their livelihoods, why not stop referring to every benefit in the country as the 'dole', distinguish in your posts who your anecdotal child benefit holiday savers are and come up with something a bit more novel and less stupid than food stamps and loans of suits for interviews.

If you are ever unfortunate enough to lose your job wouldn't this be better and fairer for you being on 'the dole' (depending on your employment track record of course):

1st year of unemployment: 80% of salary paid (maybe a max ceiling)- no other benefit
after that, everything is means-tested, maybe a sliding scale over further years so that welfare can be targetted to those who actually need it after all that is the purpose of it.

For that universal social welfare allowance of child benefit - means tested from the start for everyone.

How have I demeaned anyone??

Fair enough Childrens allowence is a uni social whatever...Its still being misused.

I like your unemployement strategy...its simular to the German one...But the main point is that our system is not condusive to getting people back to work. The dole should be credits and it should not be allowed to be used for luxuries.

Childrens allowence should also be credits which should only be used for paying for childs well being

Spudmonkey

zom wrote: »

You've got me wrong. I meant that most foreigners are actually very humble people who don't spend their money frivolously on beer or computer games. And they can live for much less than REGULAR IRISH. Even if they have to rent or paid for school.

Well alternately I wouldn't pay foreigners less than Irish just because they live on less and take their money home with them. It should be based on amounts paid in over the time paid in. Frankly I don't think someones nationality should enter the equation.

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

How have I demeaned anyone??

Fair enough Childrens allowence is a uni social whatever...Its still being misused.

I like your unemployement strategy...its simular to the German one...But the main point is that our system is not condusive to getting people back to work. The dole should be credits and it should not be allowed to be used for luxuries.

Childrens allowence should also be credits which should only be used for paying for childs well being

All well and good but the reality is there is a major lack of jobs out there, so how can people get back to work when there isn't any work there for them.

fliball123

padma wrote: »

All well and good but the reality is there is a major lack of jobs out there, so how can people get back to work when there isn't any work there for them.

I have said currently to keep the welfare at the same rate or maybe another small cut.. by making this available as credit. It will ensure the money stays in Ireland and it will also stop the misspending of many who have other revenues (black market, fellas living with them).

There needs to be an over all of our expenditure system from Dole, Childs allowence, ps spending

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

I have said currently to keep the welfare at the same rate or maybe another small cut.. by making this available as credit. It will ensure the money stays in Ireland and it will also stop the misspending of many who have other revenues (black market, fellas living with them).

There needs to be an over all of our expenditure system from Dole, Childs allowence, ps spending

There is a lot of people who own businesses hiding money too as we all know. Maybe it's in human nature to try and avoid paying a tax on anything really. Look at drug dealing, a billion euros a year, not being taxed, prostitution, massive money not being taxed. The current answer is to spend millions on trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs, cigarettes and prostitution.

Spudmonkey

padma wrote: »

There is a lot of people who own businesses hiding money too as we all know. Maybe it's in human nature to try and avoid paying a tax on anything really. Look at drug dealing, a billion euros a year, not being taxed, prostitution, massive money not being taxed. The current answer is to spend millions on trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs, cigarettes and prostitution.

As far as I know only the CAB "tax" illegal activities, not the revenue commissioners. :pac:

fliball123

padma wrote: »

There is a lot of people who own businesses hiding money too as we all know. Maybe it's in human nature to try and avoid paying a tax on anything really. Look at drug dealing, a billion euros a year, not being taxed, prostitution, massive money not being taxed. The current answer is to spend millions on trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs, cigarettes and prostitution.

They clue is in the the illegal part...Sure they would get no tax anyway as they are ILLEGAL.

If a self employed person is caught cooking the books they get hammered with fines and we are not paying out over 22 billion to subsidise the above

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

They clue is in the the illegal part...Sure they would get no tax anyway as they are ILLEGAL.

If a self employed person is caught cooking the books they get hammered with fines and we are not paying out over 22 billion to subsidise the above

And when a drug dealer is caught we pay for a few years inside prison for them.

Anyway I'm off to work, have a great day folks, but be easy on the unemployed please.

fliball123

padma wrote: »

And when a drug dealer is caught we pay for a few years inside prison for them.

Anyway I'm off to work, have a great day folks, but be easy on the unemployed please.

Maybe we should bring back executions...have a good day

danbohan

padma wrote: »

I see your point, though you have to admit people who work also take their money out of the country on holidays. As for going on a bender, sure the tax man gets that anyway. The only thing I can see really is cash is a problem for everyone.

My friend for example lost his job, gets 188 euro a week, 4 euro during winter for heating, and 15 euro a month for mortgage relief. He has no money. He is on the dole. He's credit card is maxed. He has a loan out he can't repay. He is constantly in and out of the bank looking for an extension on a moratorium.

Fact is he doesn't get his lighting and heating paid for, he doesn't get his mortgage paid for. He is out of work a year now and the prospects of a job haven't appeared. Minimum wage jobs aren't there anymore. He would take on a minimum wage job but hasn't had any luck probably because he is overskilled.

What I'm saying is you aren't the only one in a bad situation and the welfare isn't the gravy train that your making it out to be for a large proportion of the recipients on it.

what i never understand is why somebody like your friend obviously well educated and qualified tolerates a set of circumstances that involves him/her living like this . we are a small island with maybe 20% unemployment and smaller in population than many European citys . dont be wasting your life hanging around to trying survive ,go somewhere and make something , maybe financially you wont be much better off, but the climate might be better and your broadening your experiences

HellFireClub

The OP conveniently chooses to forget that the majority of people who are on social welfare, have actually worked, they have paid PRSI, the social protection payments that they receive, they have paid for that protection through PRSI payments before they lost their job!

I can't get over the neck of someone who comes on here saying, "WE shouldn't be paying for this and WE shouldn't be paying for that, give them all free cheese and butter vouchers"... I'm also one of those in the WE group, I paid my PAYE and PRSI for years and years...

I was recently on the dole, because I had no luck with getting a job I started up my own business. Every state department and agency that was mandated to support someone like myself, opposed every effort I made.

If you want to start looking at where the waste is, start looking at the politically appointed goons and stoogies in state agencies like the County Enterrprise Boards, FAS, the Dept. of Social Protection, etc, getting paid a grand a week to push and shunt endless reams of paper around an office while actually opposing the people that they are meant to be supporting.

The person who started this thread reckons we should push more goons and stoogies into the dole office and create more paperwork and formfilling "for the file", more beaurocracy for having a suit dry cleaned or a bus ticket refunded, the goons down in the dole office would love the likes of you with your, "for the file" attitude. I can only assume that you are a public sector worker yourself and you have the standard obsession with filling out forms and all forms of beaurocracy. How does such an action cut the cost of running the country???

The vast majority of people on the dole want to work, but they can't because there are no jobs in this country. There's a heavy culture of "having to know someone" in order to get through 3 interviews in this country, you're lucky if you get a reply to your application...

fliball123

HellFireClub wrote: »

The OP conveniently chooses to forget that the majority of people who are on social welfare, have actually worked, they have paid PRSI, the social protection payments that they receive, they have paid for that protection through PRSI payments before they lost their job!

I can't get over the neck of someone who comes on here saying, "WE shouldn't be paying for this and WE shouldn't be paying for that, give them all free cheese and butter vouchers"... I'm also one of those in the WE group, I paid my PAYE and PRSI for years and years...

I was recently on the dole, because I had no luck with getting a job I started up my own business. Every state department and agency that was mandated to support someone like myself, opposed every effort I made.

If you want to start looking at where the waste is, start looking at the politically appointed goons and stoogies in state agencies like the County Enterrprise Boards, FAS, the Dept. of Social Protection, etc, getting paid a grand a week to push and shunt endless reams of paper around an office while actually opposing the people that they are meant to be supporting.

The person who started this thread reckons we should push more goons and stoogies into the dole office and create more paperwork and formfilling "for the file", more beaurocracy for having a suit dry cleaned or a bus ticket refunded, the goons down in the dole office would love the likes of you with your, "for the file" attitude. I can only assume that you are a public sector worker yourself and you have the standard obsession with filling out forms and all forms of beaurocracy. How does such an action cut the cost of running the country???

The vast majority of people on the dole want to work, but they can't because there are no jobs in this country. There's a heavy culture of "having to know someone" in order to get through 3 interviews in this country, you're lucky if you get a reply to your application...

i didnt conveniently leave that out. I know that people on the dole have worked. As one other poster pointed out. We should mirror the German style. something like someone gets 80% of thier wage up to 6 months and then halved every 6 months...

I am not even looking for a massive cut. What I am looking for is a system that cuts out people on the doles spending on luxuries..As this is a joke..Why should my tax money pay for anyone to go on holiday???

Long term on the dole should be just told to fcuk off ...anyone there for 5 years or more just do not want to work...

The whole we shouldnt be paying should be changed to we can no longer afford to pay.

As I stated in the OP I dont want to get anyones back up but when 2/3s of our income is spent on this radical changes need to be made..Ensuring the money stays in the country would be paramount and people not talking jobs because they are better off on the dole should also be cut out

pocketvenus

HellFireClub wrote: »

The OP conveniently chooses to forget that the majority of people who are on social welfare, have actually worked, they have paid PRSI, the social protection payments that they receive, they have paid for that protection through PRSI payments before they lost their job!

I can't get over the neck of someone who comes on here saying, "WE shouldn't be paying for this and WE shouldn't be paying for that, give them all free cheese and butter vouchers"... I'm also one of those in the WE group, I paid my PAYE and PRSI for years and years...

I was recently on the dole, because I had no luck with getting a job I started up my own business. Every state department and agency that was mandated to support someone like myself, opposed every effort I made.

If you want to start looking at where the waste is, start looking at the politically appointed goons and stoogies in state agencies like the County Enterrprise Boards, FAS, the Dept. of Social Protection, etc, getting paid a grand a week to push and shunt endless reams of paper around an office while actually opposing the people that they are meant to be supporting.

The person who started this thread reckons we should push more goons and stoogies into the dole office and create more paperwork and formfilling "for the file", more beaurocracy for having a suit dry cleaned or a bus ticket refunded, the goons down in the dole office would love the likes of you with your, "for the file" attitude. I can only assume that you are a public sector worker yourself and you have the standard obsession with filling out forms and all forms of beaurocracy. How does such an action cut the cost of running the country???

The vast majority of people on the dole want to work, but they can't because there are no jobs in this country. There's a heavy culture of "having to know someone" in order to get through 3 interviews in this country, you're lucky if you get a reply to your application...

Most of these posts are started by people who either are working in the PS or are high up in the private sector who have not got a clue what it is like to live in the real world. Their attitude is that all people on the dole are scum and something to be scraped off the end of their shoe.

Simple fact is in this country the Gov and welfare system benefits those who never worked a day in their life and have no intention to and this will never change. All the talk of tacing fraud is just talk and an excuse to ensure when the cut benefits they know the working public and PS will support it. Fact is those who can screw the dole always will and are left to do so and this will never change as they know all the loop holes, have all the do gooders out supporting them. Nobody is fighting or concerned about the workers who lost their jobs about 2 years ago and who are asking for nothing but the bascis are embarrased to even claim these and are using savings to survive and try not be a burden on the State. What do they get for this, abuse, people looking down their noses at them etc.

As above poster said most jobs now are "who you know" and alot of the ones advertised are gone and are put in paper as by law you have to do so. I know this for a fact as there was a job recently adversited where I live, so I applied for it has 2 interviews and did not get it. Two days later I met a girl I knew in college and we got taking about work etc anyway I asked her where she was working and she told me she had that job and was working in the job while interviews for it was going on. So there you go.

HellFireClub

fliball123 wrote: »

i didnt conveniently leave that out. I know that people on the dole have worked. As one other poster pointed out. We should mirror the German style. something like someone gets 80% of thier wage up to 6 months and then halved every 6 months...

I am not even looking for a massive cut. What I am looking for is a system that cuts out people on the doles spending on luxuries..As this is a joke..Why should my tax money pay for anyone to go on holiday???

Long term on the dole should be just told to fcuk off ...anyone there for 5 years or more just do not want to work...

The whole we shouldnt be paying should be changed to we can no longer afford to pay.

As I stated in the OP I dont want to get anyones back up but when 2/3s of our income is spent on this radical changes need to be made..Ensuring the money stays in the country would be paramount and people not talking jobs because they are better off on the dole should also be cut out

I can tell you, as someone who was on the dole until recently and knows what the f*ck they are talking about, that when you're income is 188 Euro a week, you can't afford any luxuries, you can barely survive. You are talking out of your arse on this subject. Your whole contribution is deeply deeply offensive to someone from my own backround who has been there and done that.

Idbatterim

I think it should be cut incrementally over time, maybe 10% every 6 months, up to a maximum of 4 cuts or 40%. Leaving it at 60% of normal standard rate. What do I propose doing with the saving? paying off national debt, reducing PAYE (atleast at top rate) AND putting the money into job creation schemes, money into community facilities and better school facilities and smaller class sizes. The poverty trap is in no ones interest. Its just very difficult at the moment as its not like boom time, where you could say there is no reason for anyone to be on dole for an extended period, so my proposal to reduce it based on how long your on it, may not be ideal at the moment.

HellFireClub

fliball123 wrote: »

i didnt conveniently leave that out. I know that people on the dole have worked. As one other poster pointed out. We should mirror the German style. something like someone gets 80% of thier wage up to 6 months and then halved every 6 months...

I am not even looking for a massive cut. What I am looking for is a system that cuts out people on the doles spending on luxuries..As this is a joke..Why should my tax money pay for anyone to go on holiday???

Long term on the dole should be just told to fcuk off ...anyone there for 5 years or more just do not want to work...

The whole we shouldnt be paying should be changed to we can no longer afford to pay.

As I stated in the OP I dont want to get anyones back up but when 2/3s of our income is spent on this radical changes need to be made..Ensuring the money stays in the country would be paramount and people not talking jobs because they are better off on the dole should also be cut out

And it's worthy of mention that you're obviously not too productive or efficient yourself as an employee when you're on here talking politics at this hour of the day.

tfitzgerald

HellFireClub wrote: »

I can tell you, as someone who was on the dole until recently and knows what the f*ck they are talking about, that when you're income is 188 Euro a week, you can't afford any luxuries, you can barely survive. You are talking out of your arse on this subject. Your whole contribution is deeply deeply offensive to someone from my own backround who has been there and done that.

I agree with this the dole is no gravy train 180€ is not going to take you far when you still have all bills to pay, a holiday anywhere is a fantasy out of my reach

Dannyboy83

Stamps or local currency, not Euro - can't take money outside country - help to cut down on fraud.

Shouldn't be able to purchase alcohol with SW money.

tfitzgerald

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Stamps or local currency, not Euro - can't take money outside country - help to cut down on fraud.

Shouldn't be able to purchase alcohol with SW money.

FFS I hope you are never on welfare while you are on about it why don't we introduce a chaingangs everyone on the dole ( those who
are breaking there arse trying to get jobs that don't exist) should meet up every Monday morning to see how we can make the people lucky enough to have a job have an easier time of it maybe cutting lawns ect

Dannyboy83

tfitzgerald wrote: »

FFS I hope you are never on welfare

I never have been and I never would be.
If I couldn't get a job, I'd emigrate.

while you are on about it why don't we introduce a chaingangs everyone on the dole ( those who are breaking there arse trying to get jobs that don't exist) should meet up every Monday morning to see how we can make the people lucky enough to have a job have an easier time of it maybe cutting lawns ect

I'm working - I don't spend any money on alcohol.
You don't need alcohol to survive. Nobody does.
Far too much dole money is wasted on alcohol.

A lot of young people would just emigrate if their dole money couldn't buy them drink. There was a program on RTE about it last year.

Idbatterim

Id say the amount spent on alcohol from dole money would be jaw dropping! I know several people on it and they admit to blowing almost all of it on alcohol!

Boskowski

We can debate all day about whatever form of support is demeaning and whatever standard of life should be provided or not.

The fact of the matter is that between unemployment benefits, welfare, OAPs, child allowances, rent allowances, single parent allowances and whatever else is out there we blow two thirds of the states fincial intake.

It isn't healthy, it's not sustainable and it has us on the brink of ruins together with the other problems we have. It simply cannot continue.

I don't want to list the umpteenth time what exactly has to be done but generally speaking we need to clamp down on abuse and fraud, we need to lower the rates - in some areas more in some areas less in some areas significantly, but lower them all the same - and we need to means test them efficiently. And also we need to stop using welfare as a political instrument e.g. flooring the rent market by dishing out €800 on rent allowance.

We have a ton of other problems, too, but welfare is one of them and its a big one.

And there is no point in waving your fingers saying 'have a go at the other guys first'.
It needs to be tackled, all of it. Otherwise we're fvcked. Don't people see that? If we don't do anything about it there is just no miracle going to happen for us. The country is not going to win the lottery or find pots of gold or anything like that. There won't be a miraculous turnaround back to another property boom either. We are going to be fvcked.
The EU will say 'look you failed your 4 year plan miserably, we can't lend you anymore, you gonna have to get back to bond markets (or whatever)', we will pay 15% there, we eventually bne unable to borrow anything and then we will be bankrupt and there will be no money left to be paid to anyone.

There is no point in being stubborn and somehow things will go on. They won't.

RichardAnd

Whilst the op's suggestion have merit I find myself disagreeing with him on a matter of principle. Though there are many wasters on the dole, there are many who simply have had the misfortune of loosing their jobs. I do agree that welfare rates are too high but I do not think that soup kitchens and hand outs are the way to go about bringing spending into line.

If I were in charge, the dole would be reduced to a more realistic amount but I would want it to remain as a cash payment and there are several advantages of this system.

The first is that it's simple, it's all very well to say "give the unemployed vouchers for X", "give them credit for Y" but the problem here is what happens when they need A, B or C. Consider this, Paddy is getting stamps for food and other basic needs but suddenly finds himself in need of a certain medicine but has no money to buy it so how does he get it? What if he needs (and I stress needs) something else, are we supposed to have a voucher for every item imaginable? Even with a credit card system, there is still the issue of setting the system up, trusting merchants to honour it and in Ireland, nothing like that will be smooth.

Next, we have another big issue of unemployment; dignity. There is nothing so demeaning to someone who has simply been unfortunate as to make them stand in line for a hand out. Making people queue for dole is simply a modern version of depression era soup kitchens and in a modern age, unnecessary. Unemployment payments could be make to a person's bank account in private so they could be spared the shame of dole queues and uncouth questions from welfare officers. Giving out a dole credit card or food stamps means a person's business of being unemployed can not be kept private and I believe that is wrong.

In short, yes we spend too much on welfare and yes this has to change but we must also remember that many on welfare are just unlucky and in my opinion, they at least deserve to be treated with respect. I'm not known for making very socialistic posts to this is a rare moment for me but as we attempt to tighten our belts, I don't think we should forget our humanity.

Boskowski

+1

Totally agree.

Our rates are too high, there's too many benefits, too much fraud and whatnot.

But something like a voucher or credit card system is a fraud tackling measure and I would like to believe that while there is an attitude towards welfare fraud amongst some people that is simply wrong the vast majority are not defrauding the system. It's people who lost their jobs and its difficult enough for them without making them officially second grade citizens if you like.

Because there would be a stigma attached to welfare vouchers, no doubt.

One can see it already in the rental market. Some landlords simply refuse tenants where SW pays the rent and while that may be down to bad experiences too I'm sure there a stigma element to it.

dan_d

Sweet mother of god, what sort of an OP is that?
I'm not posting again on this topic, nearly everyone here knows my opinion on statemtns about 'EVERYBODY on the dole'
.Good for you OP, a few weeks in the 90'!?You haven't the first clue what it's like. Not a notion. As for money for interview suits....well, that's assuming that just one of the endless CVs you send out in a day actually yields a reply, let alone an interview.

I'm actually speechless that there are still people out therr that are totally ignorant of social welfare and the current massive unemployment problem. I am ALL for reforming socila welfare and have frequently posted my thoughts on that.But I see red when I read posts like yours OP, because there's a level of complete ignorance with regard to what it's like and how it works, that is breathtaking.

Nhead

Spudmonkey wrote: »

As opposed to un-constructive remarks like this, perhaps you would have an idea how to stop spending 2/3s of the governments yearly intake on welfare??

It was a joke made in haste and ire- apologies.

aftermn

I have a brother and friends on the dole. It is not the 'gravy train' your suggesting, for most of them anyway.
Also, in the current employment environment, it is unrealistic to make it more difficult for people. Unless you want to head down the Tunisia route.

Some tinkering may be possible and more rigourous policing is probably necessary. Other then that, I don't think that now is the time.

Pete_Cavan

Cut Job Seekers Allowance (for those who treat the dole as a career) but leave, or possibly increase Job Seekers Benefit (for those who have paid adequate social insurance contributions but find themselves out of work). The dole should be a safety net for those who find themselves out of work not an incentive for people to stay out of it. If you have paid your fair share you should get a decent rate, if you have never contributed towards it you should get fcuk all. This would also require lowering the tax level to bring low paid workers into the tax net so they can pay something towards it.

I've said this before and I'll say it again; the government should move people from unnecessary administration positions in other department and put them in social welfare and means test everything (child benefit, medical cards, pensions, rent allowence, EVERYTHING). Means testing would save a fortune and would see only those who really need it receive money from the state. Redirecting staff would save a fortune by not having to pay off these staff who would otherwise be fired and would give better value for money because they are now doing a necessary job. This reduces the deficit, gives taxpayers better value for money, those in need of social welfare keep their payments, public servants keep their jobs.

HellFireClub

If you want to see where public money is being p*ssed all over the place in terms of wastage, ask yourself why Michael O' Leary's wife, the wife of a man who made 13 million Euro in the exercise of share options alone last year, before you even look at a cent of his salary and bonus, is automatically entitled to Child Benefit payments for 3 kids.

Before anyone tries to climb up on the back of any man or woman who is trying to survive on 188 Euro a week with no hope of getting a job, ask why those that have no need whatsoever for Child Benefit are automatically entitled to it...