Should we be making it harder to remain on the social welfare gravy train

fliball123

Hi all,

firstly I hope this post finds everyone in good form on such a nice morning..Well nice until we realise how fecked the country is.

Now I am known as someone who is vehimently against the waste and over paying of the public service and I stand by that. But the other areas of spend also needs to be tackled just some ideas.

The social welfare issue is a big one, The government should no longer give cash out for anyone claiming social welfare, childrens allowence and bring in a card system and give them a certain amount of credit which can be used only for certain things.

For example these cards/credit cannot be used to buy alcohol, smokes, pay for sky sport, or any other luxuries that people think they are entitled to.

The way I see it we should be only paying for the bare essentials. If someone signing on comes in with proof that they have an interview then the appropriate busfare can be given, also a once of payment for a shirt/tie/slacks and shoes and equivilent for a lady. Then maybe money for them to be dry cleaned the person proves they have an interview.

We need people to get back to work and when I read of two foreign nationals who were overed a salary of about 28k and they were told by their wifes that they are entitled to more on the dole it got me thinking how crazy this little country is.

Now I know there are people trying to get jobs and I am not poking at their misfortune but I find it hard to swallow as someone who is up at 5:45 in the morning and not home will 7:pm that night that I am struggling with bills and to pay for food and to see my kid growing up when so many who are sitting on their holes and being paid so much..

If I was in charge I would no longer pay cash . Credit system .. we can no longer afford to have people picking and choosing what they spend their social welfare on or childs allowence. This money should be kept for the essentails.

anyone any thaughts

average_runner

In fairness i believe that every interview you do, you should have to present a form of id and your PRSI number, so if they offer you the job and you turn it down they can report it to the social welfare.

ronano

I think the credit option or a variation of it is a good idea but I still think a certain amountvof cash is needed for general day to day. I got to lol at the busfare/shirt comment you've never been in the depressing situation of stepping inside a Dole office. they would take 4 weeks to approve you for busfare and shirt. there needs to be reform on both sides of the Dole issue,how its run from employees side and allocated to the public. my only problem really with your suggestion is how does it combat public waste,the same amount is giveñ out,only difference is what its spent on,I'd imagine roughly the same money is put into the economy,if anything people needed for paperwork along with paperwork itself make it more wasteful.

bad post written on phone

padma

good idea, maybe in time peoples wages can be structured along those lines, to pay the bills, petrol in the car, maintenance fees, food stamps so ye can make sandwiches going to work. One flask with a tea bag for every work day. Help get this little country out of the mess it's in. Maybe stop people buying their own brand new cars on finance and go in to a pooling system. That way the economy will really see no cash at all.

fliball123

ronano wrote: »

I think the credit option or a variation of it is a good idea but I still think a certain amountvof cash is needed for general day to day. I got to lol at the busfare/shirt comment you've never been in the depressing situation of stepping inside a Dole office. they would take 4 weeks to approve you for busfare and shirt. there needs to be reform on both sides of the Dole issue,how its run from employees side and allocated to the public. my only problem really with your suggestion is how does it combat public waste,the same amount is giveñ out,only difference is what its spent on,I'd imagine roughly the same money is put into the economy,if anything people needed for paperwork along with paperwork itself make it more wasteful.

bad post written on phone

Aggreed the gov need to get the system in place before going over..I mean it would be fairly simple ala a credit card...It just cuts out ****e like micky money day...and people taking the piss out of it

fliball123

padma wrote: »

good idea, maybe in time peoples wages can be structured along those lines, to pay the bills, petrol in the car, maintenance fees, food stamps so ye can make sandwiches going to work. One flask with a tea bag for every work day. Help get this little country out of the mess it's in. Maybe stop people buying their own brand new cars on finance and go in to a pooling system. That way the economy will really see no cash at all.

I sense some sarcasm...look if your working your geting your money on your on steam..If you want to blow it all on a horse..stick it up your ass or up your nose thats your business but when the tax payer is paying this bill its our business how its spent..and there would be no effect on the economy....as it should only be allowed used in Ireland so there is no chance of taking this card abroad. In fact the amount of people I know saying ahh sure I have saved the childrens allowence I am going on holiday with this..Surely this is a good thing or am I being naive?

ei.sdraob

fliball123 wrote: »

Aggreed the gov need to get the system in place before going over..I mean it would be fairly simple ala a credit card...It just cuts out ****e like micky money day...and people taking the piss out of it

Thats what they do in Iceland

You go to community welfare office and pick the supplies such as food from the warehouse as you need them.

The minister was very blunt straight to the point as to why this is done with "We dont need to be sending money to Eastern Europe at this time..."

Spudmonkey

Nhead wrote: »

What about bringing back the poorhouse?

As opposed to un-constructive remarks like this, perhaps you would have an idea how to stop spending 2/3s of the governments yearly intake on welfare??

fliball123

Spudmonkey wrote: »

As opposed to un-constructive remarks like this, perhaps you would have an idea how to stop spending 2/3s of the governments yearly intake on welfare??

I mean I am not saying to pay less by all means give the same amount all this does is it keeps the money in Ireland, it stops it being frivilously being spent on binges and other sh1te...I dont see how anyone on the dole could say that they are being hard done by unless they are spending this cash on luxuries and if they are well then they should not be getting it

Spudmonkey

This was a thread topic before albeit in AH.

The general consensus was that it was demeaning way of administering welfare, even though it would probably mean that the right people are getting the right things, any money isn't being wasted on non-essentials.

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

I sense some sarcasm...look if your working your geting your money on your on steam..If you want to blow it all on a horse..stick it up your ass or up your nose thats your business but when the tax payer is paying this bill its our business how its spent..and there would be no effect on the economy....as it should only be allowed used in Ireland so there is no chance of taking this card abroad. In fact the amount of people I know saying ahh sure I have saved the childrens allowence I am going on holiday with this..Surely this is a good thing or am I being naive?

In essence what I'm actually getting to is the idea of getting rid of money altogether. As if half a million people are not receiving cash, plus the other quarter of a million on mickey mouse adult education schemes, sure thats a large portion of the country with no cash, why doesnt everyone do this, happy days for all. Look, everytime someone on the dole fills their car up with petrol 50/60% goes to the taxman, same as you. The only difference really is you pay a tax on the money you earned, thats the only extra tax you paid in comparison to someone on the dole, not too bad if your still getting a few extra hundred quid a week than them.

We need to be careful, talking about the unemployed in the way you are is lets face it stereotypical. I'm sure you know plenty of people out of work for a year or so who are so in debt they can't move outside their house. Some have committed suicide due to the financial burdens they've found themselves in. As for the two lads who refused 28k a year, the employer should have hired someone who has a mortgage, he did get 200 odd c.v's

Spudmonkey

fliball123 wrote: »

I mean I am not saying to pay less by all means give the same amount all this does is it keeps the money in Ireland, it stops it being frivilously being spent on binges and other sh1te...I dont see how anyone on the dole could say that they are being hard done by unless they are spending this cash on luxuries and if they are well then they should not be getting it

All well and good stopping winos spending their welfare in offies and down the bookies. It ignores the elephant in the room however which is the governments maths.

later12

The civil service cannot even means test children's allowance allocations to to time and expense, can you imagine extending such regulation to every single expenditure by social welfare recipients from a box of matches to a sack of potatoes? Your average person probably engages in about ten financial transactions per day; multiply that by over 400,000 people signing on and staff arbitrarily deciding what expenses are necessary and which are not? Jesus, where do people get these hare brained ideas? Do people actually think that is a runner, or is it just some odd chip on their shoulder about welfare?

Surely it would be better to just come out and oppose welfare in itself as opposed to such an expensive, time consuming and downright messy and hugely subjective approach as this.

fliball123

padma wrote: »

In essence what I'm actually getting to is the idea of getting rid of money altogether. As if half a million people are not receiving cash, plus the other quarter of a million on mickey mouse adult education schemes, sure thats a large portion of the country with no cash, why doesnt everyone do this, happy days for all. Look, everytime someone on the dole fills their car up with petrol 50/60% goes to the taxman, same as you. The only difference really is you pay a tax on the money you earned, thats the only extra tax you paid in comparison to someone on the dole, not too bad if your still getting a few extra hundred quid a week than them.

We need to be careful, talking about the unemployed in the way you are is lets face it stereotypical. I'm sure you know plenty of people out of work for a year or so who are so in debt they can't move outside their house. Some have committed suicide due to the financial burdens they've found themselves in. As for the two lads who refused 28k a year, the employer should have hired someone who has a mortgage, he did get 200 odd c.v's

emm lets look at this in detail Padma
The country is broke. My tax has been increased to the point where I am left with about 30 quid a week for non essentials ... the typical tax payer not only pays tax, they pay to get in and out of work, they pay rent/mortgage they must pay house and life insurance if you have a mortgage...not to mention heating, lighting and food

So the person on the dole gets allowence for rent or if they have kid paid for in full .. plus heating lighting and the rest..

In fact a friend of mine is on the dole he has a kid and he has more expendable cash at the end of the week than I do...How is that fair?

I have said I wouldnt cut the level of money given I would just transfer it to credit and cut out people being able to take this cash out of the country and cut out people going on benders or holidays with it..

Dont get me wrong I was unemployed back in the early 90s for a couple of weeks and it did me no harm...I think the suicides have a lot more to do with the individual than the unemployment..Could be wrong on that do....

The employer in entitled to get the best person for the job which these 2 guys were...Employers should report people who do not take up jobs

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

emm lets look at this in detail Padma
The country is broke. My tax has been increased to the point where I am left with about 30 quid a week for non essentials ... the typical tax payer not only pays tax, they pay to get in and out of work, they pay rent/mortgage they must pay house and life insurance if you have a mortgage...not to mention heating, lighting and food

So the person on the dole gets allowence for rent or if they have kid paid for in full .. plus heating lighting and the rest..

In fact a friend of mine is on the dole he has a kid and he has more expendable cash at the end of the week than I do...How is that fair?

I have said I wouldnt cut the level of money given I would just transfer it to credit and cut out people being able to take this cash out of the country and cut out people going on benders or holidays with it..

Dont get me wrong I was unemployed back in the early 90s for a couple of weeks and it did me no harm...I think the suicides have a lot more to do with the individual than the unemployment..Could be wrong on that do....

The employer in entitled to get the best person for the job which these 2 guys were...Employers should report people who do not take up jobs

I see your point, though you have to admit people who work also take their money out of the country on holidays. As for going on a bender, sure the tax man gets that anyway. The only thing I can see really is cash is a problem for everyone.

My friend for example lost his job, gets 188 euro a week, 4 euro during winter for heating, and 15 euro a month for mortgage relief. He has no money. He is on the dole. He's credit card is maxed. He has a loan out he can't repay. He is constantly in and out of the bank looking for an extension on a moratorium.

Fact is he doesn't get his lighting and heating paid for, he doesn't get his mortgage paid for. He is out of work a year now and the prospects of a job haven't appeared. Minimum wage jobs aren't there anymore. He would take on a minimum wage job but hasn't had any luck probably because he is overskilled.

What I'm saying is you aren't the only one in a bad situation and the welfare isn't the gravy train that your making it out to be for a large proportion of the recipients on it.

fliball123

padma wrote: »

I see your point, though you have to admit people who work also take their money out of the country on holidays. As for going on a bender, sure the tax man gets that anyway. The only thing I can see really is cash is a problem for everyone.

My friend for example lost his job, gets 188 euro a week, 4 euro during winter for heating, and 15 euro a month for mortgage relief. He has no money. He is on the dole. He's credit card is maxed. He has a loan out he can't repay. He is constantly in and out of the bank looking for an extension on a moratorium.

Fact is he doesn't get his lighting and heating paid for, he doesn't get his mortgage paid for. He is out of work a year now and the prospects of a job haven't appeared. Minimum wage jobs aren't there anymore. He would take on a minimum wage job but hasn't had any luck probably because he is overskilled.

What I'm saying is you aren't the only one in a bad situation and the welfare isn't the gravy train that your making it out to be for a large proportion of the recipients on it.

Is he not living in the house without paying a mortgage??? if he is this is essentially getting it for free ..in this country its very hard to take a house off someone..

The problem is do that the tax payer is paying for this and it is unsustainable

zom

@Fliball123 - are you at work at the moment? Where do you work? Can you use internet at work?

Talking about welfare spent on alcohol/gambling - that activities are one of most taxed recreations and it's the easiest way to have money back to state.
Imagine foreigners who spend most of their dole to support their families or build a home in their country? Most of money paid to them is flying away from Ireland.
I red someone on that forum telling that he works with foreigner who use to save his salary and use to buy new cars or go for overseas holiday. THEY SHOULD INTEGRATE with society and spend their salary on beer and horses HERE, in IRELAND!

Spudmonkey

zom wrote: »

I red someone on that forum telling that he works with foreigner who use to save his salary and use to buy new cars or go for overseas holiday. THEY SHOULD INTEGRATE with society and spend their salary on beer and horses HERE, in IRELAND!

Even thought this is probably only a small proportion of people who are most likely long term welfare recipients, why should they get money to spend on this and then cry fowl when their amount is reduced.

Sir Oxman

fliball123 wrote: »

I sense some sarcasm...look if your working your geting your money on your on steam..If you want to blow it all on a horse..stick it up your ass or up your nose thats your business but when the tax payer is paying this bill its our business how its spent..and there would be no effect on the economy....as it should only be allowed used in Ireland so there is no chance of taking this card abroad. In fact the amount of people I know saying ahh sure I have saved the childrens allowence I am going on holiday with this..Surely this is a good thing or am I being naive?

You do know Child Benefit is a universal allowance? You keep mentioning the 'dole' as if it that encompasses every welfare payment in the country.

For the purposes of your thread, I'm assuming the child benefit holiday savers are out of work as well? (just so it fits in with your OP)
How about immediately ceasing payment of this welfare to everyone? That'd save a heap, no?

Instead of finding ways to further demean people who have lost their livelihoods, why not stop referring to every benefit in the country as the 'dole', distinguish in your posts who your anecdotal child benefit holiday savers are and come up with something a bit more novel and less stupid than food stamps and loans of suits for interviews.

If you are ever unfortunate enough to lose your job wouldn't this be better and fairer for you being on 'the dole' (depending on your employment track record of course):

1st year of unemployment: 80% of salary paid (maybe a max ceiling)- no other benefit
after that, everything is means-tested, maybe a sliding scale over further years so that welfare can be targetted to those who actually need it after all that is the purpose of it.

For that universal social welfare allowance of child benefit - means tested from the start for everyone.

fliball123

later10 wrote: »

The civil service cannot even means test children's allowance allocations to to time and expense, can you imagine extending such regulation to every single expenditure by social welfare recipients from a box of matches to a sack of potatoes? Your average person probably engages in about ten financial transactions per day; multiply that by over 400,000 people signing on and staff arbitrarily deciding what expenses are necessary and which are not? Jesus, where do people get these hare brained ideas? Do people actually think that is a runner, or is it just some odd chip on their shoulder about welfare?

Surely it would be better to just come out and oppose welfare in itself as opposed to such an expensive, time consuming and downright messy and hugely subjective approach as this.

Well thats another problem...but surely if credit card systems can be created..We own the fecking banks...surely there would not be too much involved in taking technology that already exists and using it for these people...god forbid maybe if the gov negotiated with the likes of dunnes, tesco adli and the rest and said look we have credit card system.

The public sector should be hammered every time it is shown to be ineffiecient...

Also welfare does need to be cut aswell

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

Is he not living in the house without paying a mortgage??? if he is this is essentially getting it for free ..in this country its very hard to take a house off someone..

The problem is do that the tax payer is paying for this and it is unsustainable

He has just received a three month moratorium. Thats it. It is the bank who is out of pocket for three months, not the taxpayer. It is what it is a moratorium.

Put another way, we got roughly 400,000 extra housing stock in this country. We got x amount of people on a housing waiting list with their local housing authority receiving rent supplement which goes to private landlords. A massive savings could be made if Nama and the likes sell on the housing stock on their books to local authorities. Then those on the dole would be paying a percentage of their dole directly to the state rather than to private landlords. There is a massive savings there which could be tapped in to. Remember there is a Human rights declaration

Article 25.

• (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

zom

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Even thought this is probably only a small proportion of people who are most likely long term welfare recipients, why should they get money to spend on this and then cry fowl when their amount is reduced.

You've got me wrong. I meant that most foreigners are actually very humble people who don't spend their money frivolously on beer or computer games. And they can live for much less than REGULAR IRISH. Even if they have to rent or paid for school.

fliball123

gambiaman wrote: »

You do know Child Benefit is a universal allowance? You keep mentioning the 'dole' as if it that encompasses every welfare payment in the country.

For the purposes of your thread, I'm assuming the child benefit holiday savers are out of work as well? (just so it fits in with your OP)
How about immediately ceasing payment of this welfare to everyone? That'd save a heap, no?

Instead of finding ways to further demean people who have lost their livelihoods, why not stop referring to every benefit in the country as the 'dole', distinguish in your posts who your anecdotal child benefit holiday savers are and come up with something a bit more novel and less stupid than food stamps and loans of suits for interviews.

If you are ever unfortunate enough to lose your job wouldn't this be better and fairer for you being on 'the dole' (depending on your employment track record of course):

1st year of unemployment: 80% of salary paid (maybe a max ceiling)- no other benefit
after that, everything is means-tested, maybe a sliding scale over further years so that welfare can be targetted to those who actually need it after all that is the purpose of it.

For that universal social welfare allowance of child benefit - means tested from the start for everyone.

How have I demeaned anyone??

Fair enough Childrens allowence is a uni social whatever...Its still being misused.

I like your unemployement strategy...its simular to the German one...But the main point is that our system is not condusive to getting people back to work. The dole should be credits and it should not be allowed to be used for luxuries.

Childrens allowence should also be credits which should only be used for paying for childs well being

Spudmonkey

zom wrote: »

You've got me wrong. I meant that most foreigners are actually very humble people who don't spend their money frivolously on beer or computer games. And they can live for much less than REGULAR IRISH. Even if they have to rent or paid for school.

Well alternately I wouldn't pay foreigners less than Irish just because they live on less and take their money home with them. It should be based on amounts paid in over the time paid in. Frankly I don't think someones nationality should enter the equation.

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

How have I demeaned anyone??

Fair enough Childrens allowence is a uni social whatever...Its still being misused.

I like your unemployement strategy...its simular to the German one...But the main point is that our system is not condusive to getting people back to work. The dole should be credits and it should not be allowed to be used for luxuries.

Childrens allowence should also be credits which should only be used for paying for childs well being

All well and good but the reality is there is a major lack of jobs out there, so how can people get back to work when there isn't any work there for them.

fliball123

padma wrote: »

All well and good but the reality is there is a major lack of jobs out there, so how can people get back to work when there isn't any work there for them.

I have said currently to keep the welfare at the same rate or maybe another small cut.. by making this available as credit. It will ensure the money stays in Ireland and it will also stop the misspending of many who have other revenues (black market, fellas living with them).

There needs to be an over all of our expenditure system from Dole, Childs allowence, ps spending

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

I have said currently to keep the welfare at the same rate or maybe another small cut.. by making this available as credit. It will ensure the money stays in Ireland and it will also stop the misspending of many who have other revenues (black market, fellas living with them).

There needs to be an over all of our expenditure system from Dole, Childs allowence, ps spending

There is a lot of people who own businesses hiding money too as we all know. Maybe it's in human nature to try and avoid paying a tax on anything really. Look at drug dealing, a billion euros a year, not being taxed, prostitution, massive money not being taxed. The current answer is to spend millions on trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs, cigarettes and prostitution.

Spudmonkey

padma wrote: »

There is a lot of people who own businesses hiding money too as we all know. Maybe it's in human nature to try and avoid paying a tax on anything really. Look at drug dealing, a billion euros a year, not being taxed, prostitution, massive money not being taxed. The current answer is to spend millions on trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs, cigarettes and prostitution.

As far as I know only the CAB "tax" illegal activities, not the revenue commissioners. :pac:

fliball123

padma wrote: »

There is a lot of people who own businesses hiding money too as we all know. Maybe it's in human nature to try and avoid paying a tax on anything really. Look at drug dealing, a billion euros a year, not being taxed, prostitution, massive money not being taxed. The current answer is to spend millions on trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs, cigarettes and prostitution.

They clue is in the the illegal part...Sure they would get no tax anyway as they are ILLEGAL.

If a self employed person is caught cooking the books they get hammered with fines and we are not paying out over 22 billion to subsidise the above

padma

fliball123 wrote: »

They clue is in the the illegal part...Sure they would get no tax anyway as they are ILLEGAL.

If a self employed person is caught cooking the books they get hammered with fines and we are not paying out over 22 billion to subsidise the above

And when a drug dealer is caught we pay for a few years inside prison for them.

Anyway I'm off to work, have a great day folks, but be easy on the unemployed please.

fliball123

padma wrote: »

And when a drug dealer is caught we pay for a few years inside prison for them.

Anyway I'm off to work, have a great day folks, but be easy on the unemployed please.

Maybe we should bring back executions...have a good day