Animals worrying sheep

Vizzy

Don't know if this is the correct place for this - if not,Mods please advise.

Got a call this evening from a farmer who has a problem with sheep being worried(he is not sure yet if they are being killed) by animals
Only prob is that the animals are dogs !
Obviously he wants them deterred
He has identified the 2 suspects as he has seen them wandering down the road with the remains of a deer.
The owner of one doesn't want to know about it (apparently his exact words were "did you see my dog in the field because he is locked up at night" - not so as I took a spin up and met the dog at about 8.30 tonight)

Just wondering what kind of hurt I could get myself into.

Tackleberrywho

When I grew up it was instilled

If your dog chases sheep.
He will be shot
And YOU will get the Bill for aborted Lambs


Dog owner has no legal rights, just liabilities.
Gardaí would not cost it a thought.

kermitpwee

Vizzy wrote: »

Don't know if this is the correct place for this - if not,Mods please advise.

Got a call this evening from a farmer who has a problem with sheep being worried(he is not sure yet if they are being killed) by animals
Only prob is that the animals are dogs !
Obviously he wants them deterred
He has identified the 2 suspects as he has seen them wandering down the road with the remains of a deer.
The owner of one doesn't want to know about it (apparently his exact words were "did you see my dog in the field because he is locked up at night" - not so as I took a spin up and met the dog at about 8.30 tonight)

Just wondering what kind of hurt I could get myself into.

I could be wrong but I always was told that the farmer could shoot the dogs. Thats what the local boys in blue tell us.

garv123

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/index.html

relevant bit
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/sec0023.html#sec23

It wasn't me!

If he's complaining that his dog gets shot, remind him that it couldn't possibly be his dog because he locks it in at night.

Tackleberrywho

garv123 wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/index.html

relevant bit
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/sec0023.html#sec23

Got it in one, If a sheep or cow is worried by A dog.
No questions asked if dog is on land of a third party and is put to sleep.

Vizzy

kermitpwee wrote: »

I could be wrong but I always was told that the farmer could shoot the dogs. Thats what the local boys in blue tell us.

I thought that alright and I could have shot the fella I met tonight but my farmer pal doesn't necessarily want to wait until the dogs arrive at the field in case they get to a lamb before I get to them.
Also they may have to be dispatched on neighbouring land ( possibly Coillte)
On the upside,if I solved his problem( and possibly even if I don't) I might swing about 500 acres of a permission on serious rough shooting ground.

garv123

Vizzy wrote: »

I thought that alright and I could have shot the fella I met tonight but my farmer pal doesn't necessarily want to wait until the dogs arrive at the field in case they get to a lamb before I get to them.
Also they may have to be dispatched on neighbouring land ( possibly Coillte)
On the upside,if I solved his problem( and possibly even if I don't) I might swing about 500 acres of a permission on serious rough shooting ground.

id say the dog must be shot on his land. you must report it too if i remember correctly from reading a thread about it before

Cass

Can have a read of this too. From Q10 onwards of relevance.

johngalway

From reading the Control of Dogs act, I would first try something like a live catch fox cage with dog food in it.

I would strongly question and be somewhat suspicious over why your pal want's them shot before they enter his land. That aspect does not sit right with me.

I would have him visit the local Garda station, go along with him yourself if you're intending to get involved. Outline the situation and ask their advice. Explain if you cannot catch the dogs and they begin worrying sheep then the intention is there to shoot them to protect the live stock.

Ask for their advice, their take, on the matter.

I would not shoot them on anyone elses land under any circumstances.

Regardless of what's been said here, things can and do get very messy after the fact.

Two farmers here lost 80+ ewes on commonage to two dogs last year. Both were shot in the act, covered in blood. Lots of mauled sheep were recovered.

The owner, who first admitted the offense then kicked up and to be honest the cops gave the lads who shot the dogs a right going over - after the fact (I wasn't involved).

Previously they had been nice as pie.

So, if you're going to shoot those dogs, line up your ducks first. And that entails you and your pal going to the law together and getting advice, make sure the visit is recorded, make a complaint if the owners are known.

After the fact, if there is damage done such as killed sheep. All paper work will be needed, all animals must have tags in them, all animals must be disposed of in a proper manner and again that paperwork is needed. Take photos of any dogs shot, and investigate for collars or tags with names and numbers on them.

Owners are grand, oops sorry about that, yeah I'll pay.

Until they get the bill.

Things have a habit of being contested and ending up before a judge then.

Do it right if you're going to do it at all or keep well away from it.

Hunter21

You didnt state if the farmer has a gun or not? Mate of mine was asked to shoot a dog by a farmer who's sheep were being killed. Mate said no bother, then we did a bit of research and found out Farmer Barney Bob did have a gun, so the mate told him do it himself, rather then getting his own hands covered in blood and end up in a messy situation.

Never take your licence for granted, always think outside the box i.e the consequences.

Plus its no good shooting a dog that "might" be killing sheep, nothing is factual without evidence. The dog is innocent till proven guilty. Im not backing up any stray dog by no means, just saying that overkill of a situation is not always the best answer.

landkeeper

Hunter21 wrote: »

Plus its no good shooting a dog that "might" be killing sheep, nothing is factual without evidence. The dog is innocent till proven guilty. Im not backing up any stray dog by no means, just saying that overkill of a situation is not always the best answer.

sorry lad i used to be like that give it the benefit of the doubt and all that one christmas night and
2000 euros worth of dead sheep changes your outlook on life especially when it's a stray and no-one is responsible

Coriolanus

Spunk84 wrote: »

Removed quote as original post was also removed/jg

Eh no, that'd be illegal. Read the statute. You have to alert the guards within 48 hours.
If you shoot, and don't, and someone of another mind reports it, you could be in a heap of trouble.
I thought Boards was pretty strict with people encouraging others to break the law? :rolleyes:

mikemac

Grew up on a sheep farm
Never, ever was an issue to shot a dog on your land if you see them chasing the sheep. Seen it too many times
And if applicable, send the owner the bill for dead sheep and abortions.

But then you need to call out the vet who has to verify what happened. Paperwork but it has to be done, papertrail is important.

I'd agree with the post that the dog owner might agree with liability and say they'll arrange the cheque. But a few days later after thinking about it gets cute and think they can get out of it :rolleyes:.
Same happens after car accidents too I suppose
And then it goes to the District Court and even more delay and expense.

Definitely give the gardai a heads up if sheep are being bothered and its' likely a dog will be shot if caught. Ask their advice and get a name and rank. Well it's likely you know them anyway. And after shooting, tell them too.

I don't know about shooting outside your land though. Sounds very messy and a whole host of disputes will follow

tfox

I've dealt with this situation in 2 different ways.

First time I was doing some work on my cousins tractor when all the sheep ran into the shed from the field, chased them back out when I saw t large dogs running the rest of the sheep into the fence and going for them by the neck :eek: Had the HMR in the landrover so grabbed it, first one dropped to the shot, second one ran off, stopped, and dropped to my second shot !! A dog breeder friend of mine ID'd them as belonging to a family of unscrupulous type living in the nearby time, not people you want against you :mad: So the dogs were disposed off in the skip at the hunt kennels and no more was said to anyone !!

Second time. My cousin had a tenant renting 150 acres off him who was being plagued with sheep being killed by dogs, I witnessed 2 boxers chasing them one day, talked to the owner who said def wasnt his dogs

Reported it to our friendly seargant who said he'd keep an eye out ( sound huntign fella)

Anyway over a course of 6 months he lost near on 15 ewes and 35 lambs and as you can imagine he was not a happy man and my cousin was worried hed lose him as a tenant. The day I was coming back from doing my HCAP range test I called into his and saw the f**kers out in the field at the sheep again. Sneaked along the back of the hedge, set myslef up with the pod and dropped the first one, second one just turned and looked my way and he fell to the second !! Called the seargant who came over, took the dogs in his boot and went off to see the owner, who had no choice but to pay up for all losses !!

Vizzy

johngalway wrote: »

From reading the Control of Dogs act, I would first try something like a live catch fox cage with dog food in it.

I would strongly question and be somewhat suspicious over why your pal want's them shot before they enter his land. That aspect does not sit right with me.


I would not shoot them on anyone elses land under any circumstances.

John,
I may have given the wrong impression here.
The farmer is not up to anything suspicious.
He simply wants to ensure that the dogs don't get to kill a sheep and then decide to take action.
The land borders Coillte land (even the lambing shed) and this is the route they seem to be taking to arrive.
Must admit I'm not too comfortable with having to patrol the Coillte land as I walked in in daylight today and to be honest the dogs could appear from 100 directions..
Just in relation to shooting on somebody elses land, does the same theory not apply in relation to foxes(i.e you are invited to shoot on the land by the landowner).
In any case I have taken all the advise on board and think I will adopt a wait and see attitude as the farmer hasn't seen the dogs since yesterday morning so maybe the owners have taken action.

garv123

i dont think you have any right to shoot the dogs if they're not on the farmers land.
what happens if you spot the dogs running around in the coillte land and you shoot them only to find out that the owner was not far behind them walking?

i'd be thinking about your licence before anything else if i was in your situation.

deerhunter1

tfox wrote: »

I've dealt with this situation in 2 different ways.

First time I was doing some work on my cousins tractor when all the sheep ran into the shed from the field, chased them back out when I saw t large dogs running the rest of the sheep into the fence and going for them by the neck :eek: Had the HMR in the landrover so grabbed it, first one dropped to the shot, second one ran off, stopped, and dropped to my second shot !! A dog breeder friend of mine ID'd them as belonging to a family of unscrupulous type living in the nearby time, not people you want against you :mad: So the dogs were disposed off in the skip at the hunt kennels and no more was said to anyone !!

Second time. My cousin had a tenant renting 150 acres off him who was being plagued with sheep being killed by dogs, I witnessed 2 boxers chasing them one day, talked to the owner who said def wasnt his dogs

Reported it to our friendly seargant who said he'd keep an eye out ( sound huntign fella)

Anyway over a course of 6 months he lost near on 15 ewes and 35 lambs and as you can imagine he was not a happy man and my cousin was worried hed lose him as a tenant. The day I was coming back from doing my HCAP range test I called into his and saw the f**kers out in the field at the sheep again. Sneaked along the back of the hedge, set myslef up with the pod and dropped the first one, second one just turned and looked my way and he fell to the second !! Called the seargant who came over, took the dogs in his boot and went off to see the owner, who had no choice but to pay up for all losses !!

Nice one happy ending

One shot on kill

my two pence worth

if the dog is not on land dont shoot as garv says owner might not be to far behind

you wont get a license for a gun ever again

also strays are dif shoot them once there on the land

if the dog is a pet its worth waiting to be sure

and talkin about swinging land your way to shoot on isnt a big enough reason
also if the farmer thinks your responsible thinkin before every shot he might let you quicker

also if its the wrong shot you will loose every piece of land you have to shoot on

tfox

One shot on kill wrote: »

my two pence worth

if the dog is not on land dont shoot as garv says owner might not be to far behind

you wont get a license for a gun ever again

also strays are dif shoot them once there on the land

if the dog is a pet its worth waiting to be sure

and talkin about swinging land your way to shoot on isnt a big enough reason
also if the farmer thinks your responsible thinkin before every shot he might let you quicker

also if its the wrong shot you will loose every piece of land you have to shoot on

Have to agree on this one, only case I would do it is on the landowners land, and him requesting you to shoot them

FISMA

Hunter21 wrote: »

You didnt state if the farmer has a gun or not? Mate of mine was asked to shoot a dog by a farmer who's sheep were being killed. Mate said no bother, then we did a bit of research and found out Farmer Barney Bob did have a gun, so the mate told him do it himself, rather then getting his own hands covered in blood and end up in a messy situation.

Never take your licence for granted, always think outside the box i.e the consequences.

Plus its no good shooting a dog that "might" be killing sheep, nothing is factual without evidence. The dog is innocent till proven guilty. Im not backing up any stray dog by no means, just saying that overkill of a situation is not always the best answer.

+ 1 Agreed.

landkeeper wrote: »

sorry lad i used to be like that give it the benefit of the doubt and all that one christmas night and
2000 euros worth of dead sheep changes your outlook on life especially when it's a stray and no-one is responsible

Anyone that practices a shoot first and ask questions later type policy deserves to lose their license.

If you cannot confirm the dog is responsible, let alone has even been on your land, I hardly think it is appropriate or legal to shoot it.

Word of mouth is never a legal or good reason to shoot.

tfox

One shot on kill wrote: »

my two pence worth

if the dog is not on land dont shoot as garv says owner might not be to far behind

you wont get a license for a gun ever again

also strays are dif shoot them once there on the land

if the dog is a pet its worth waiting to be sure

and talkin about swinging land your way to shoot on isnt a big enough reason
also if the farmer thinks your responsible thinkin before every shot he might let you quicker

also if its the wrong shot you will loose every piece of land you have to shoot on

If I was you the only way I would deal with them is at the landowners request on his ground

fallowbuck

wel i was called upon by a local farmer ,to do the business wat could i do could,n say no never had any prob,s the person who ever owned the dog never came forward most wont .................

kemen

you could always sprinkle some lead up there arse and see if that turns them off going near the feild but after that it would have to be the last rights

Vizzy

One shot on kill wrote: »

my two pence worth

if the dog is not on land dont shoot as garv says owner might not be to far behind

you wont get a license for a gun ever again

also strays are dif shoot them once there on the land

if the dog is a pet its worth waiting to be sure

and talkin about swinging land your way to shoot on isnt a big enough reason
also if the farmer thinks your responsible thinkin before every shot he might let you quicker

Agree completely
TBH, I have plenty of permissions( gun club,farmers outside the club etc) and I'm not going to do anything to jeopodise these and more importantly my licences.
If the farmer wants to offer me permission to shoot afterwards,then so be it but thats not the reason I am goin up there.I just cant bear the thought of lambs bein savaged by dogs:(
If he doesn't, thats fine too.
I would have no intention of shooting the dogs on land that I don't have permission to be on,nor am I goin to take a shot at any dog that I'm not sure of but the guy is fairly sure(as sure as you can be in the circumstances) that if his sheep are being worried then the 2 dogs in question are the ones doing it.
The owner of one of the dogs( the guy in denial) lives about 2 miles away as the crow flies and in my opinion the dog has no business being in the area at midnight.No idea who owns the other one but definitely not the same guy.

If I go up with the gun I'll be lying in wait on the farmers land.
Just hope I'm quick enought to get the dog before he does any damage.

johngalway

Vizzy wrote: »

John,
I may have given the wrong impression here.
The farmer is not up to anything suspicious.
He simply wants to ensure that the dogs don't get to kill a sheep and then decide to take action.
The land borders Coillte land (even the lambing shed) and this is the route they seem to be taking to arrive.
Must admit I'm not too comfortable with having to patrol the Coillte land as I walked in in daylight today and to be honest the dogs could appear from 100 directions..
Just in relation to shooting on somebody elses land, does the same theory not apply in relation to foxes(i.e you are invited to shoot on the land by the landowner).
In any case I have taken all the advise on board and think I will adopt a wait and see attitude as the farmer hasn't seen the dogs since yesterday morning so maybe the owners have taken action.

What I meant was, he has no right to ask you to shoot on someone elses land. If you were to do that and be seen by forestry workers, nosey neighbours, or walkers and get reported then it's your ass on the line, not his, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if it went arseways - if the dog owners were to get wind of it and make a complaint, the Gardai would have to act on that. Like Steve McQueen said in the Great Escape "I wouldn't do that for my own mother"

I do understand the fear of rogue dogs. My old mans flock has been attacked two or three times in the past. I'm just trying to look out for your license TBH. If you follow all the legal steps, and they don't achieve the result, then, if you shoot the dogs on the farmers land you will have some degree of protection as you can demonstrate (that's where any and all paperwork comes in handy) that you've done your best before resorting to, well, the last resort.

Daylight was the most often I've heard of dog attacks around this area. Just mind how ya go, that's all I'm saying to ya

Vizzy

Thanks John

Appreciated

johngalway

Mod/info post.

I have deleted some posts and edited others as it had been rightly pointed out to us that there was some encouragement of illegal behaviour in this thread. Please remember that is not allowed on any forum on Boards.ie. Any discussion via PM so as to keep the thread on topic, thanks.

jg.

landkeeper

fisma this is directed at you
i was talking about our sheep on our land with me doing the shooting with my rifle there is no place for a stray dog in sheep country full stop , any dog that the sheep are not used to causes upset and disquiet to the flock even one running through them can cause mayhem
i used to give dogs a chance but no longer do the 2000 euro i speak of was a major loss to us and that was just the immediate direct loss there was more after due to aborted lambs and such like
unless you have had such like happen to you then you have no idea as to the mess that is left behind believe me it changes your opinion
one was a pedigree texel ewe that was the last ewe left from a family of sheep i had owned and bred for 15 years she got trapped in a corner under wire in her urgency to get away from the dog that was after them, she started to give birth prematurely to her lamb but died in the process another was a year old ewe who literally had her leg eaten her down to the bone whilst she was still alive will i go on
so please less of the smart comments strange dogs in our sheep sorry i'll shoot first and worry about the consequences then

FISMA

Landkeeper,

With all due respect, its not a "smart" comment when what is being advocated is breaking laws.

Hunter wrote and you quoted ...

Hunter21 wrote: »

...
Plus its no good shooting a dog that "might" be killing sheep, nothing is factual without evidence. The dog is innocent till proven guilty. Im not backing up any stray dog by no means, just saying that overkill of a situation is not always the best answer....

You disagreed by stating...

landkeeper wrote: »

sorry lad i used to be like that give it the benefit of the doubt and all that one christmas night and
2000 euros worth of dead sheep changes your outlook on life especially when it's a stray and no-one is responsible

The above quote is worse than bad advice, it is illegal.

landkeeper wrote: »

fisma this is directed at you
...
so please less of the smart comments strange dogs in our sheep sorry i'll shoot first and worry about the consequences then

Different case - no one is questioning this.

IF you see there is a dog causing damage to the herd, by all means shoot away. Isn't that your right? Post a help request on this board and I am sure that many individuals will volunteer for an all-nighter, myself first, to protect the herd.

I leave the last word to you.

Cass

This thread has run its course and the OP has enough information to make his own decision.

Thread closed.