Re-Classifying you're conversion

redcube

Ya i thought i better ring them first bit of a pain that there is only 12 place in the hole of Ireland

goodstuff!

Good reading there men! I was thinking of converting a luton van into a camper/ racetruck for holding spares in the back.
Before i start i just need to be sure of a couple of things:

1) When i convert (3.5 ton irish van) into camper, am i going to be hit with any tax or VRT or anything?

2) If i build to the bare minimum to pass as a camper, can i then come home and build it how i like it? I was told i need expensive CE approved windows, but if i come back after its cleared as a camper, can i fit whatever windows etc i want to it?

3) Is there any other hidden costs i might need to contend with before April next year?

Thanks in advance lads!!

Buford T Justice

Read this first.

goodstuff! wrote: »

1) When i convert (3.5 ton irish van) into camper, am i going to be hit with any tax or VRT or anything?

If you want to re-classify it, then you'll have to pay VRT. Read the above thread.

goodstuff! wrote: »

2) If i build to the bare minimum to pass as a camper, can i then come home and build it how i like it? I was told i need expensive CE approved windows, but if i come back after its cleared as a camper, can i fit whatever windows etc i want to it?

Why not just do it right first time? The type of glass will have no bearing on passing a re-classifying exam, it won't pass a DOE exam.

goodstuff! wrote: »

3) Is there any other hidden costs i might need to contend with before April next year?

Thanks in advance lads!!

None other than the fees associated with garages doing exams and paperwork etc.....

Again, everything you need to know is in the thread above, or in my sig.

fl&sh

niloc1951 wrote: »

5.1. "Motor caravan" means a special purpose M category vehicle constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:- seats and table,- sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats,- cooking facilities, and- storage facilities.

great tread.i was thinking of doing this shortly to my current van rather than trade it in.

Sorry to go slightly off topic but does anyone know if a Chevy astro dayvan qualifies as a "motor caravan".

the road tax would be crazy on a 4.3 if it isn't.....but i might still buy it..,,lol.

Buford T Justice

depends on its current classification on the log book.

SligoBob

I doubt the Chevy van would meet the minimum interior height measurement of 1.8m?

Macy0161

SligoBob wrote: »

I doubt the Chevy van would meet the minimum interior height measurement of 1.8m?

As far as I'm aware there doesn't appear to be a definitive answer whether this is still a requirement under the new regulations. Also if it has gone, the next issue would be whether the insurance companies have moved with it!

SligoBob

Macy0161 wrote: »

As far as I'm aware there doesn't appear to be a definitive answer whether this is still a requirement under the new regulations. Also if it has gone, the next issue would be whether the insurance companies have moved with it!

From the Revenue Operations manual available on ros.ie;

"To be deemed a motor caravan a vehicle must, amongst other criteria, have an interior

roof height of not less than 1.8 metres""

Buford T Justice

SligoBob wrote: »

From the Revenue Operations manual available on ros.ie;

"To be deemed a motor caravan a vehicle must, amongst other criteria, have an interior

roof height of not less than 1.8 metres""

I think its also a criteria for insurance.

Worth a shot though... You never know.

Mr Gumby

I was just checking the interior height requirement for a camper and I could no longer find it!!!

"Motor Caravans/Motor Homes

To be deemed a motor caravan/motor home a vehicle must, be a Category M1, M2 or M3 vehicle (EU vehicle classification with a bodytype SA) and must be constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:

• seats and table,
• sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats,
• cooking facilities, and
• storage facilities.

It should be noted that this equipment must be rigidly fixed to the living compartment, however, the table may be designed to be easily removable.
Motor caravans/motor homes registered on or after 1 January 2011, will be charged VRT at 13.3% of the open market selling price of the vehicle at the time of registration."

Link:- http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vrt-guide.html#section16

Is this too good to be true or is it as normal that somewhere else it is still mentioned?

Mr Gumby

Furthermore in another section(Link:-http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vrt-guide.html#section16) -it now includes N1 type

"It should be noted that it is not possible to convert any vehicle other than an EU Category M1, M2, M3 or N1 vehicle to a motor caravan, i.e. an M1, M2, or M3 vehicle a bodytype SA, constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:"

Is it confused because of this:- "From 1 January 2011, a revised vehicle categorisation system for vehicle registration tax purposes comes into law. The revised system reflects the categories used for the classification of vehicles at European level, as set out under a number of EC Directives, particularly those relating to the type approval of passenger vehicles (Directive 2007/46/EC)"

Macy0161

Pros: At least I'm not totally losing it
Cons: It's still as clear as mud

When I was looking at conversion options, it was a criteria for the insurance to have the 1.8m. However, they were still willing to accept a poptop, when at the time revenue weren't.

Buford T Justice

Macy0161 wrote: »

It's still as clear as mud

Just the way they like to keep it :rolleyes:

Mikesound

Any update on this?
What is the position now?
Thanks

khards

One thing that is not clear to me is:

Is the VRT on the conversion the difference between the OMSP of the base van and the finished motorhome?
If it is not then you would pay the VRT twice, once on the imported van then again after you have converted it.

Hypothetical situation.

€6000 - LWB HR Base Van
€1500 - VRT Import Duty
€4000 - Conversion Costs
€11500 = Total Cost For Base Van + Conversion

VRT on OMSP of €11500 is aprox. €2000

Total VRT Payable = €3500

---

€10,000 - LWB HR Converted Van
€2000 - VRT
€12000 = Total Cost For Converted Van.

Total VRT Payable = €2000 for buying an imported Van.

---

Would it not make sense to charge VRT on the difference between the OMSP of the base van and the final conversion?
In the above example €10,000 - €6000 = €4000 difference so around €600 in VRT.

paddyp

khards wrote: »

One thing that is not clear to me is:

Is the VRT on the conversion the difference between the OMSP of the base van and the finished motorhome?
If it is not then you would pay the VRT twice, once on the imported van then again after you have converted it.

Hypothetical situation.

€6000 - LWB HR Base Van
€1500 - VRT Import Duty
€4000 - Conversion Costs
€11500 = Total Cost For Base Van + Conversion

VRT on OMSP of €11500 is aprox. €2000

Total VRT Payable = €3500

---

€10,000 - LWB HR Converted Van
€2000 - VRT
€12000 = Total Cost For Converted Van.

Total VRT Payable = €2000 for buying an imported Van.

---

Would it not make sense to charge VRT on the difference between the OMSP of the base van and the final conversion?
In the above example €10,000 - €6000 = €4000 difference so around €600 in VRT.

Any vrt already paid is subtracted from the vrt due.

AutostratusEB

khards wrote: »

Hypothetical situation.

€6000 - LWB HR Base Van
€1500 - VRT Import Duty
€4000 - Conversion Costs
€11500 = Total Cost For Base Van + Conversion

VRT on OMSP of €11500 is aprox. €2000

Total VRT Payable = €3500

As well as any VRT already paid being subtracted (which is about as good as the news gets), the OMSP is not what you say it is (and any costs you incur in the process of conversion are irrelevant) but what a little man at the Revenue says it is, based on what a campervan conversion of that age could theoretically sell for in an open market. You can appeal once you have paid the (generally) over estimated VRT based on the (generally) over-estimated OMSP.

Can you find out a VRT estimate before you import? No.

Can you appeal VRT before you hand over your cash? No

Is the system open and transparent? No.

Yes. It's mad, I know.

And then when you do all this and hit the open road, you won't be allowed to overnight or free-camp anywhere in the (Republic of) Ireland other than your own driveway.

But sure tis a great little country really.

khards

So for example I would like to convert a LDV Convoy minibus 2006 to a camper van.
If the bus was already imported as new and VRT paid then I buy it second hand 7 years later.
A fair amount of VRT was originally paid on the vehicle when new.
If I make a bare minimum conversion, which in theory has a lower OMSP than a all bells and whistles camper the VRT should be minimal if indeed any is due.
I can then improve the campervan over a number of years, adding 240v electricity, heating awning etc.

I am not trying to avoid VRT, just reduce my liability on a 7 year old converted minibus.

Any thoughts on this approach?

khards

AutostratusEB wrote: »

As well as any VRT already paid being
And then when you do all this and hit the open road, you won't be allowed to overnight or free-camp anywhere in the (Republic of) Ireland other than your own driveway.

Really, is this law or just general observation. There are lots of places around Co. Galway where I could park up for the evening. Would this be illegal, because if it is it kind of defeats the point of having a campervan int he first place.

niloc1951

khards wrote: »

Really, is this law or just general observation. There are lots of places around Co. Galway where I could park up for the evening. Would this be illegal, because if it is it kind of defeats the point of having a campervan int he first place.

The whole parking Vs. camping is full of misconceptions here in this country. In Europe the difference is well defined and enshrined in law. While the issue has not been addressed here, if it were we would probably have to follow the European example to avoid being accused of discrimination.

I will always exercise my right to 'park' my motorhome in line with local parking bye-laws for other private passenger vehicles.

See HERE for a full explanation.

Thex

Hey, just finished a conversion.

Do any of you guys out there know someone willing and qualified to sign the declaration of conversion in the Dublin area.

Thanks

reelkidmusic

Thex wrote: »

Hey, just finished a conversion.

Do any of you guys out there know someone willing and qualified to sign the declaration of conversion in the Dublin area.

Thanks

Any SIMI Garage or DOE Centre in your area can do this

Thex

Thanks for the quick reply reelkidmusic,

unfortunately whenever I have contacted a garage to do this none of them have a clue what I am talking about and end up just saying "no, we don't do this".

So I was hoping if anybody knows of a garage or had experience of a garage that has been willing to sign declaration of conversion previously?

Preferably in the Dublin area, but all suggestions are welcome.

reelkidmusic

You can download the form from the revenue website. It might be easier just to print it off and bring the van in to one of the garages. I got mine done at a DOE Centre in Co Clare, and they had no problem in completing it. They seemed to have done a few before mine though.


http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/forms/vehicle-conversion-declaration.pdf

dbkel

there is somewhere on the naas rd that will stamp the conversion form , does anybody know the name of the company

Irishgoatman

niloc1951 wrote: »

The whole parking Vs. camping is full of misconceptions here in this country. In Europe the difference is well defined and enshrined in law. While the issue has not been addressed here, if it were we would probably have to follow the European example to avoid being accused of discrimination.

I will always exercise my right to 'park' my motorhome in line with local parking bye-laws for other private passenger vehicles.

See HERE for a full explanation.

I've never had any problems with "wild camping", which for me is anywhere other than a camping site, which I've yet to use. I always park in towns or villages and do as niloc says, follow local bye-laws as shown on roadside parking signs.

Even, on the odd occasion, when I've ignored a no over-nighting sign I've never had any bother. It does, of course, depend on the size of the MH, but if there are no individual bays marked out then no problem.

corktina

what is the UK experience of wild-camping? Are they more or less tolerant than us?

niloc1951

corktina wrote: »

what is the UK experience of wild-camping? Are they more or less tolerant than us?

In Scotland parking overnight and using a camper for its designed purpose is not against the law, but in England like here some local councils try to ban it while others provide facilities, Wales being less independent than Scotland seems to follow the English model.

As I have said many times, parking and camping (wild or otherwise) have yet to be separately defined in these islands in relation to motor caravans being parked overnight, with or without occupants on board.

It should be clear that any vehicle which is fully road legal and properly parked at a place where the parking of vehicles is permitted cannot be the cause of an offence by its driver.
The only exception to this can be where the size and or weight of the vehicle is detrimental to the local environment or infrastructure and the parking of such vehicles is not permitted at that place by local bye-law.

gav197

Hi lads sorry for adding too an old thread but my situation is a nightmare, i basically can't get any garage that signs off on Normal panel van conversions because mine is an abi caravan welded and bolted onto an Iveco daily chasis etc
they all say it needs an nsai engineer to sign of on a reclassifcation and I had 1 out to inspect and he said its a few inchs too long? this camper was built 5 yrs ago and is still solid and i've seen other similar builds with papers sell online, so what can i do, can't get insurance or anything to drive until its cleared somehow, please help!

crabbypaddy

gav197 wrote: »

Hi lads sorry for adding too an old thread but my situation is a nightmare, i basically can't get any garage that signs off on Normal panel van conversions because mine is an abi caravan welded and bolted onto an Iveco daily chasis etc
they all say it needs an nsai engineer to sign of on a reclassifcation and I had 1 out to inspect and he said its a few inchs too long? this camper was built 5 yrs ago and is still solid and i've seen other similar builds with papers sell online, so what can i do, can't get insurance or anything to drive until its cleared somehow, please help!

I would have thought only an NSAI test center with vehicle type approval would be able to sign off on something like that. I would look for a place that does individual vehicle approval (IVA) as they would be used to looking at unusual vehicles. You can check the scope of the local place here:

https://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Type-Approval/Approved-Test-Centers.aspx

Max length for a motorhome is about 12m in europe as far as I know so you're hardly over that but it could be that if protrudes too far beyond the bumper / lights or something like that. e.g. a rear collision could end up with the caravan through the windscreen before the bumpers collided.

When you get it approved you will be in for a battle for insurance I would think.