Re-Classifying you're conversion

Buford T Justice

Guys, I reckon this deserves its own thread.

So, the way it was when you were finished a conversion, you completed the VRT6 form and sent it to the boys in Rosslare. They'd charge you the VRT and would re-classify the vehicle for you.

However, I've been on to the revenue site looking for the form, and lo and behold its not longer there. They've changed the form to this one:
Vehicle Conversion Declaration

Now, there is one major distinction between the two forms. The newer one requires the form to be completed by a 'suitably qualified individual' declaring the following:

an Engineering/Technical Qualification (Level 7 or higher accredited courses28) or appropriate accreditation
with Engineers Ireland or the Institute of Automobile Engineer Assessors
• a minimum of 5 years experience of working in a suitable technical environment (preferably
• Automotive or Engineering Environment)
• access to adequate facilities to carry out a thorough vehicle examination, and
• appropriate professional indemnity insurance

This is a major change, and being in the middle of a conversion it could well mean that I am scuppered when it comes to re-classifying it as a camper.

So I contacted revenue asking for the VRT6 form, and they said the following:

Dear Fingers McGee
The VRT 6 Form has been updated. The form you are looking for is
at:-www.revenue.ie, and,
VRT, Forms, ( at bottom of list), then
Declaration of conversion by vehicle owner .

Which to be honest, is about as helpful as as throwing a drowning man both ends of a rope. So I asked them the following

Hi Revenue Overlords

Thanks for coming back to me.

I do have a question on the new form I hope you can help me with.

On the form, it asks that it is signed and stamped by a 'suitably qualified individual'. This conversion is a home build, and will not be completed at a garage, therefore I am the suitably qualified individual.

This was not part of the VRT6 form, and According to the RSA it doesn't become legislation until 29th april 2012. (Link http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Vehicles-and-Legislation/Vehicle-Standards/Leisure-vehicles/)

Can I just state on the form that it was a home conversion? I can't seem to get any help from rosslare on this.

Many Thanks for the help
Fingers McGee

And they said:

You can sign as the 'suitably qualified person' only if you have the required qualifications to do so.
The notes on the form list these, and the NSAI may assist with certifiers in your area.

Now, from what I understand the RSA has stated that this doesn't become legislation until 29th April 2012

Seriously!!! WTF is going on here. It seems like they've just changed their position on a whim. Can anyone else here shed some light on it, as I'm just about to start harassing Revenue on this.

spaceHopper

If the legustaion isn't coming in to force till 2012 then get a mail from the RSA to have in your back pocket.

Have you arranged insurance, you should be able to do it before VRT, I was.

Take it to a SMII gurage and get the inurance engineers reprot and VRT form done then send it back. My normal mechanic did it for me, first time he'd seen the engineers report form but he and a SMII stamp so it was fine.

See what VRT say. Try to get the OMV out of them at the same time.

They can't have a problems with a qualified mechanic who fixes cars and van every day then declares them safe to be on the road.

They could be up to something, stress you out then back down a bit a but give you a high OMV which you won't argue incase they change their mind...

Or they could be looking out for all our best interests and stopping chancers with heaps of junk, or builders sticking in a few seats and a stove to get cheap tax and insurance.

Buford T Justice

spaceHopper wrote: »

If the legustaion isn't coming in to force till 2012 then get a mail from the RSA to have in your back pocket.

I shouldn't need to, if its on their website.

spaceHopper wrote: »

Have you arranged insurance, you should be able to do it before VRT, I was.

Not yet. Should be finished in about a week or so though

spaceHopper wrote: »

Or they could be looking out for all our best interests and stopping chancers with heaps of junk, or builders sticking in a few seats and a stove to get cheap tax and insurance.

Which is a fair point, but then why did they take it away from the local officers who could personally do a visual inspection. Plus that's what the photo's are for, in addition to the new DOE Guidelines for the camper.

spaceHopper

Fingers McGee wrote: »

I shouldn't need to, if its on their website.

Not yet. Should be finished in about a week or so though



Which is a fair point, but then why did they take it away from the local officers who could personally do a visual inspection. Plus that's what the photo's are for, in addition to the new DOE Guidelines for the camper.

The new DOE for campers means nothing as they don't check the gas......

get the insureace reprot and get the mechanic to do the VRT paper work at the same time.

There's a good chance they will accept it, if they don't then fight with them over when it comes into forece I'd have an email where mr X in the RSA said that after 2012 I need xyz.

Buford T Justice

Ok, so I spoke with my local NSAI approved garage about the form today.

They said that Donegal Co.Co. sent someone down to them last week for the same thing. They knew nothing about what they were supposed to or not to be doing and it was only after a number of confused phone calls they figured it out.

Basically, their understanding of this new guff is that they have to do a visual inspection of the conversion to see that it actually is a camper and not a van, and then stamp and sign the form so you can send it to the revenue.

Such a load of ballsology! This is completely pointless and is just a waste of more peoples time.

/rant

spaceHopper

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Ok, so I spoke with my local NSAI approved garage about the form today.

They said that Donegal Co.Co. sent someone down to them last week for the same thing. They knew nothing about what they were supposed to or not to be doing and it was only after a number of confused phone calls they figured it out.

Basically, their understanding of this new guff is that they have to do a visual inspection of the conversion to see that it actually is a camper and not a van, and then stamp and sign the form so you can send it to the revenue.

Such a load of ballsology! This is completely pointless and is just a waste of more peoples time.

/rant

Grand so it's sorted it's basically a copy of the insurance report - any gurage can do it. Get moving on finishing the van there's more to life than VRT

Mike Irish

What sort of money would you think it would cost for the Vrt on a 07 ford transit?
Cheers.
Mike

Buford T Justice

How long is a piece of string tbh.

It depends on the conversion you've done and the mood of the people in rosslare. Basically its up to them to decide what the OMSP (Open Market Selling Price) of the camper is, and they charge you 13.5% VRT on that. There is an appeals process if you think its too high, but you would still have to pay the VRT first.

Mike Irish

Cheers.That is what I was thinking.When you have carried out all the work and do it to your best ability you are screwed for it if you DO A GOOD JOB?: So the nane of the game is?confused:
Regards.
Mike

Buford T Justice

Yeah but it'll still work out cheaper than buying a coachbuilt one though.

SligoBob

Well Fingers, a couple of your threads always seem to pop up when I google for info on my Camper I'm building. But like you now that I'm ready to get it VRT'd and on the road, I've been met with this new setup...

I took the "Engineer" part of the suitably qualified person part too seriously, and I'm getting to form completed by a family friend with said qualifications. But he's being a bit unhelpful now and dragging his heels.

Did you just go somewhere local, and get it signed by them? If so, where (if you don't mind saying)? And have you had any word back from Revenue yet?

Buford T Justice

SligoBob wrote: »

Well Fingers, a couple of your threads always seem to pop up when I google for info on my Camper I'm building. But like you now that I'm ready to get it VRT'd and on the road, I've been met with this new setup...

I took the "Engineer" part of the suitably qualified person part too seriously, and I'm getting to form completed by a family friend with said qualifications. But he's being a bit unhelpful now and dragging his heels.

Did you just go somewhere local, and get it signed by them? If so, where (if you don't mind saying)? And have you had any word back from Revenue yet?

I've not completely finished the van just yet. have been tied up with too sick children and another car giving gip. Hoping to tackle it again tomorrow and get the last push on it.

Cawleys Garage are NSAI approved. You'll need to tell them that its only the visual inspection that you want to get the form filled in for. Bring the form with, but you may need to book it in, even though it only takes 5 minutes.

SligoBob

Is that Cawley Commercials Fingers? I'll give the guy supposedly doing the form for me another couple of days. Then I'll have to start looking elsewhere, as I need to get the van on the road! Sleeping in a tent at MX races isn't fun... Especially when I have the camper sitting there ready to be used!:mad:

Buford T Justice

SligoBob wrote: »

Is that Cawley Commercials Fingers?

Yep!

I know what you mean. my own is nearly finished and just need to get one last push on to knock it out and be done with it. Should have a good crack at it tomorrow.

redpoppy

I am almost finished converting my van into a camper - can anyone tell me what EU class a van is considered - if it doesn't come under M1, M2, M3 I cant re-class the van as a camper ???? Below is a quote from the "vehicle conversion declaration" form !

Vehicle categories

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

A Category M1 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising of eight seats or less in addition to the driver’s seat.
A Category M2 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising of more than eight seats in addition to the driver’s seat, and having a maximum mass not exceeding 5 tonnes.
A Category M3 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising of more than eight seats in addition to the driver’s seat, and having a maximum mass exceeding 5 tonnes.
A Category N1 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes.
A Category N2 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not exceeding 12 tonnes.
A Category N3 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 12 tonnes.

[/FONT][/FONT]

EU Bodyworks

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Motor vehicles of category M1 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]AA [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Saloon. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AD [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Coupé [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AB [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Hatchback Saloon [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AE [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Convertible [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AC [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Station wagon [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AF [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Multi-purpose vehicle [/FONT][/FONT]

vehicles of category M2 and M3 CA

Single deck

CE

Low-floor single deck

CB

Double deck

CF

Low-floor double deck

CC

Articulated single deck

CG

Articulated low-floor single deck

CD

Articulated double deck

CH

Articulated low-floor double deck

Motor vehicles of category N BA

Lorry

BB

Van Lorry

To be deemed a motor caravan for vehicle registration purposes, a vehicle must be an EU Category M1, M2 or M3 vehicle with a bodytype SA

niloc1951

redpoppy wrote: »

I am almost finished converting my van into a camper - can anyone tell me what EU class a van is considered - if it doesn't come under M1, M2, M3 I cant re-class the van as a camper ???? Below is a quote from the "vehicle conversion declaration" form !

Vehicle categories

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

A Category M1 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising of eight seats or less in addition to the driver’s seat.
A Category M2 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising of more than eight seats in addition to the driver’s seat, and having a maximum mass not exceeding 5 tonnes.
A Category M3 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising of more than eight seats in addition to the driver’s seat, and having a maximum mass exceeding 5 tonnes.
A Category N1 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes.
A Category N2 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not exceeding 12 tonnes.
A Category N3 vehicle is a vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 12 tonnes.

[/FONT][/FONT]

EU Bodyworks

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Motor vehicles of category M1 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]AA [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Saloon. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AD [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Coupé [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AB [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Hatchback Saloon [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AE [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Convertible [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AC [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Station wagon [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

AF [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

Multi-purpose vehicle [/FONT][/FONT]

vehicles of category M2 and M3 CA

Single deck

CE

Low-floor single deck

CB

Double deck

CF

Low-floor double deck

CC

Articulated single deck

CG

Articulated low-floor single deck

CD

Articulated double deck

CH

Articulated low-floor double deck

Motor vehicles of category N BA

Lorry

BB

Van Lorry

To be deemed a motor caravan for vehicle registration purposes, a vehicle must be an EU Category M1, M2 or M3 vehicle with a bodytype SA

This is unbelievable :mad::mad::mad: do the people who draft these forms ever refer to the Directives they are attempting to satisfy. .
A motor caravan is:....................defined as follows in Commission Directive 2001/116/EC of 20 December 2001

5.1. "Motor caravan" means a special purpose M category vehicle constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:- seats and table,- sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats,- cooking facilities, and- storage facilities.

See HERE for the full EC directive text

As the text says a 'motor caravan' is not a M1,2,3 or N 1,2, , AA, CA, etc. etc. etc............... it is a simple 'special purpose M category vehicle.............................

It appears that 'officialdom' has again failed to recognise that a 'motor caravan' is a distinct category of vehicle in its own right.

Buford T Justice

I interpreted that differently tbh. In terms of a conversion, you need to list the class of the vehicle you are converting from, into a campervan.

As an example, my conversion would be an N1 Class, a vehicle for the carriage of goods and not exceeding 2.5 tonnes.

Buford T Justice

I've been re-reading the RSA blurb again, and I'm taking a different meaning from them now.

From 29th April 2012, such vehicles will be required to adhere to the requirements of European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) to be granted registration by the Revenue Commissioners.

ECWVTA is a series of stringent tests that a vehicle, or part of a vehicle (like its brakes), must pass before it is allowed to be used on a public road.

There are also national approval schemes for the approval of vehicles manufactured in Ireland in a small series or on a one-off basis.

To register a new motor caravan in Ireland you must prove the vehicle has ECWVTA or national approval.

Following registration, motor caravans must comply with ‘Construction, Equipment and Use’ regulations.

This kinda seems like the current method that they have, where you have to get the conversion certified by an NSAI garage, except for the fact that they must be a bit more stringent. Also, the standards that are required will I'm assuming be available for reference seen as how they are european standards, and not paddy Irishman's ones.

Surely, proving that you have approval could just be a case of an engineers report or similar to be completed.

You must use a competent converter if you covert your motor caravan from a van. Your local motor taxation office (.doc) may require proof that the conversion complies with Construction, Equipment & Use regulations.

This is a bit pointless imo. For example, who's to say that I am or not a competent converter. there is no mention of skills needed. One cold argue that because I can push keys on a keyboard then that would make me a competent keyboard operator, if you know what I mean.

The proof of compliance would be the same as above.

What does anyone think?

Macy0161

Probably doesn't appear to be as anti self builder as I thought it would be, but it all depends on the implementation. But will we know that before May or June 2012 given they seem to be clear as mud now on regulations that came in Jan?

Buford T Justice

Macy0161 wrote: »

Probably doesn't appear to be as anti self builder as I thought it would be, but it all depends on the implementation. But will we know that before May or June 2012 given they seem to be clear as mud now on regulations that came in Jan?

I wonder if you can still self build after all this hoopla....

The urge may be upon me again then

spaceHopper

Fingers McGee wrote: »

I wonder if you can still self build after all this hoopla....

The urge may be upon me again then

If you look at some of the vans coming up on donedeal and gumtree there are some right chancers out there, all they are trying to do is to keep them off the road. DOE the van or get an engineers report and bring it in to them to inspect you've built a proper camper and they won't even argue.

Macy0161

spaceHopper wrote: »

If you look at some of the vans coming up on donedeal and gumtree there are some right chancers out there, all they are trying to do is to keep them off the road. DOE the van or get an engineers report and bring it in to them to inspect you've built a proper camper and they won't even argue.

Hopefully that'd be the case, rather than a blanket self build ban. If you look on the SBMCC site, the UK DVLA seemed to be far more picky than Revenue here ever were. There's fairly regular threads on people getting turned down. About as far as revenue went was the stupid height/ pop top restrictions.

I still have in my head doing a full self build in a few years when the children are bigger and we outgrow what we have - we were close this time, but in the end went with a smaller van, as we figured it'd get more use as a day van with the very small 'uns. But I'll be waiting to see how the implementation goes on the new rules - my plans have been parked rather than deleted!

Buford T Justice

Folks, just a heads up. The revenue are being less than helpful on this one.

They've returned my application (their new form) to me stating that there is no SQI form on headed paper, and the form they filled in wasn't stamped by them

Also, I've not given them a log book for the van.

I wrote to them with the application and specifically asked for contact details for anyone to help but they ignored this and sent back a standard tick in the box letter.

I've sent it back to them again, and I'm waiting to see what they say this time. Something tells me they'll find something else to return it for.

This could be a long road.

SligoBob

Yes a long road indeed Fingers, I've had to temporarily abort plans to VRT my camper. I've found some tinworm under the van that the previous owner repaired very well with expanding foam.:mad::mad::mad:

So no chance of getting the cert of road worthyness with that...

The joys of owning an old gen transit!

Buford T Justice

SligoBob wrote: »

Yes a long road indeed Fingers, I've had to temporarily abort plans to VRT my camper. I've found some tinworm under the van that the previous owner repaired very well with expanding foam.:mad::mad::mad:

So no chance of getting the cert of road worthyness with that...

The joys of owning an old gen transit!

You don't need a cert of roadworthiness for the VRT part of the transfer. You only need an engineers report for Insurance, and possibly a DOE for tax, but it depends on the person in the tax office really.

redcube

I'm a wee bit lost i have a current DOE on the van well till July so where do i go and what forums i fill out and where do i send them please help my insurance are out in July to and tax so I'd like to get it cleared by then

Buford T Justice

You need to get the finger out then.

Firstly, print out and fill in this form. Get the template filled in by an NSAI approved garage (Cawleys in Sligo) and post it, along with a photo of each side of the van inside and outside & you're log book to:

Central Vehicle Office
Rosslare Harbour
Co. Wexford

They'll be in touch with you from there. I'm still waiting to hear back from them, but it'll be next week hopefully.

A word to the wise, make sure all sections of the form are filled in. You'll need the unladen weight of the van before the conversion, and you'll need the unladen weight of the van after conversion, so when you are in Sligo, go down to cold chon on the quay and get them to weigh the van and give you a docket. They charge €10 for the pleasure, but they are the only outfit that I know of that are recognized. If you don't have all boxes filled in, they'll send it straight back to you and waste more time.

Make sure the form is stamped by cawleys, and the SQI is also filled in on headed paper.

Any specific questions regards the form when you're filling it in, post here and we can help you out

redcube

So is Sligo the only place to see NSAI approved garage or is there any near me in Clare i think I'll Google that i know of where i can get the van weigh at the local dump

Buford T Justice

redcube wrote: »

So is Sligo the only place to see NSAI approved garage or is there any near me in Clare i think I'll Google that i know of where i can get the van weigh at the local dump

I don't know where the nearest one to you is. Check with the NSAI. I found a list before, but I'm not sure where.

Local dump mightn't be good enough. You need somewhere that the DOE centers or tax office accept as a weighbridge location. For example, there's a bridge at our dump too, and they don't accept that either.

redcube

Ok i'll have to look for a weighbridge

But i did find a list of NSAI Approved Test Centres
http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Transport-Certification/Motor-Vehicle-Approval-Schemes/Approved-Test-Centers.aspx

Buford T Justice

redcube wrote: »

Ok i'll have to look for a weighbridge

But i did find a list of NSAI Approved Test Centres
http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Transport-Certification/Motor-Vehicle-Approval-Schemes/Approved-Test-Centers.aspx

That's the one.

Check with them first though, wherever you go to. Chances are they'll just look at you as if you have three heads, cos they'll have never heard of this before. This is only a new thing, and Cawleys certainly weren't told about it. They figured it out as people kept landing out with their vans.