The Chinese are coming!

Judgement Day

Anybody else notice this truly alarming picture on Yahoo today? It's a Chinese warship in the Mediterranean - ostensibly there for humanitarian reasons in connection with the Libyan crisis but with the Chinese aiming to replace the US as the global military superpower....


All the Western powers (including the USA) are trying to cut back on military expenditure and the Chinese are heading in the other direction. Who's financing it - we are. Everytime we buy Chinese products, be they top end goods like Wiis, Ipods etc. or cheap rubbish in the Euro shops we are contributing to the expansionist aims of the despotic Chinese regime. In much the same way as a Dublin.4. 'yuppie' buying coke helps fuel the drug wars and deprivation in other parts of Ireland. Talk about cutting our own throats.
There is only going to be one outcome of the crazy arms race that the Chinese government are embarked upon and that is Armageddon. The senile old duffers in the Chinese Communist party will think nothing of trying to invade Taiwan when they feel that their navy is up to a stand-off with the USA. Am I being alarmist? Is it okay because were neutral? What is the answer? One thing for sure, doing nothing is not an option. The West has already stood back while China becomes the new big player in Africa but seeing them flex their military might on our doorstep is a step too far. I know that today China is, theoretically, our friend (we do lots of trade with them) just like we did with Saddam's Iraq, Khomeni's Iran and Gaddafi's Libya.

Piece from the Mail Online while being a tad sensationalist gives food for thought: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363440/After-Beijing-sends-frigate-Med-leading-author-poses-chilling-question--How-long-Chinese-aircraft-carrier-sails-Thames.html

gigino

+1. Nearly all the non-food items in our shops are now made in China. It may have Western or Japanese brand names, but its made in China.
Consumers will yet rue the day they stopped supporting western manufacturers.

Agent Smith

They are just dying for some European food in fairness

johngalway

Judgement Day wrote: »

Am I being alarmist?

Well, ya did go from the Euro shop to Armageddon in one fell swoop. Then linked to the Daily Wail, so, eh, yeah

sink

Alarmist BS. The Chinese have bought so much European and American debt, what do you think would happen to that debt if they ever become hostile? The Chinese still only spend a tiny fraction on their military compared to NATO countries, if anything they have historically underfunded their military and are only beginning to correct that.

ArtSmart

This thread is still open?

how so?



(say it with a Chinese accent)

Einhard

Judgement Day wrote: »

All the Western powers (including the USA) are trying to cut back on military expenditure and the Chinese are heading in the other direction. Who's financing it - we are. Everytime we buy Chinese products, be they top end goods like Wiis, Ipods etc. or cheap rubbish in the Euro shops we are contributing to the expansionist aims of the despotic Chinese regime.


There is only going to be one outcome of the crazy arms race that the Chinese government are embarked upon and that is Armageddon. The senile old duffers in the Chinese Communist party will think nothing of trying to invade Taiwan when they feel that their navy is up to a stand-off with the USA. Am I being alarmist? Is it okay because were neutral? What is the answer? One thing for sure, doing nothing is not an option. The West has already stood back while China becomes the new big player in Africa but seeing them flex their military might on our doorstep is a step too far. I know that today China is, theoretically, our friend (we do lots of trade with them) just like we did with Saddam's Iraq, Khomeni's Iran and Gaddafi's Libya.

Piece from the Mail Online while being a tad sensationalist gives food for thought: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363440/After-Beijing-sends-frigate-Med-leading-author-poses-chilling-question--How-long-Chinese-aircraft-carrier-sails-Thames.html

I fail to see what we should be worried about. The US, the UK, Russia, and many other nations, have naval deployments across the globe, including the Med. Why should China be any different?

As for their military expenditure, it's true that there's been a huge increase, but it's been from a low base. As a percentage of GDP, China spends half as much on its military as the US, and less than several members of NATO. And it's playing catch up.

Finally, I see no real sign of Chinese expansionism beyond what it has traditionally claimed as its own territory. True, China has been snapping up resources around the globe, and striking partnerships with national governments to exploit such resources, but that's not expansionism. Every nation with some strategic vision and a sovereign wealth fund is doing the same.

I'm not stating this as a defence of China. The Communist Party can be brutally repressive, but China has enough problems at home, without setting out on expansionist adventures. The last time the country adopted such a policy was in the 15th century. It lasted a few decades, and then they abruptly turned in on themselves. I see no real evidence to suggest they're in the process of resurrecting that legacy.

EDIT: For the first time in my life, I've read a Daily Mail article in full. Everything people say about them is true! What a load of nonsense. Jesus Christ, the last time I read something as hysterically over the top as the final line, was Gibbon's stating that the Arab hordes might have reached Oxford had the Franks lost at Poitiers in 732! Reason enough to ignore that particular author is the following line regarding Libyan intervention: "But France, Russia and China resolutely oppose force." Such penetrating insight. :rolleyes:

SugarHigh

Why is a Chinese superpower any worse than an American superpower? They seem to be just interested in doing business which benefits everyone.

Kepti

Judgement Day wrote: »

Piece from the Mail Online while being a tad sensationalist gives food for thought: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363440/After-Beijing-sends-frigate-Med-leading-author-poses-chilling-question--How-long-Chinese-aircraft-carrier-sails-Thames.html

Food for thought, with the nutritional value of sawdust.

Judgement Day

Just to get one thing straight, I don't get my news from the Daily Mail, or any other newspaper, but I linked to the piece as it was the first item I came across with a photograph of the offending vessel. I don't make up my mind or think about things just because they are topical either. I have long considered China as a growing threat due to their military ambitions and there's no point burying your head in the sand over it. That said, they are just as likely to have a go at Russia as the US but that still leaves us heading for a nuclear showdown. The fact remains that China is yet another military dictatorship that Western countries go out of their way to be nice to. Any chance of some rational comments - without reference to my Daily Mail link - this isn't After Hours?

Another link here refers to growing tensions between India and China - more alarmist claptrap? http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=4776&Cat=13&dt=3/21/2011

and here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/04/us-china-defence-idUSTRE7230ZN20110304 from Reuters refers to tensions with Japan and how the announced spending rises should be taken with a grain of salt coming as they do from a regime that is unaccountable to its own citizens i.e. they may in fact be spending far more on military spending than admitted.

phosphate

The US spend more on "defence" than the rest of the world COMBINED.

Judgement Day

phosphate wrote: »

The US spend more on "defence" than the rest of the world COMBINED.

Proving what exactly in the context of my concern about the Chinese?

phosphate

Judgement Day wrote:

Proving what exactly in the context of my concern about the Chinese?

That your concerns aren't really valid?

China is atleast 10-15 years away from becoming anywhere near advanced as US for causing death and mayhem.

Certainly they'll get there but I don't think you have anything to worry about today.

Predator_

Judgement Day wrote: »

Anybody else notice this truly alarming picture on Yahoo today?

Alarming to who?!
It wasnt the Chinese who invaded and destroyed this country for 800 years, it was the west.
I welcome any challenge to the west.

bizmark

You know its just possible the world doesn't work on a scary ass them vrs us war mentality anymore theres simply no point to it when you have nukes and the likes if china does "take over" they will do it as america did with culture trade and ideas not a few warships in the med frankly i dont see it happening anyway.

Judgement Day

Predator_ wrote: »

Alarming to who?!
It wasnt the Chinese who invaded and destroyed this country for 800 years, it was the west.
I welcome any challenge to the west.

Alarming to me obviously or I wouldn't have posted. As for the rest of your post - get over it, it's called history, evolution whatever. You might as well blame the Romans for oppressing us as the British or perhaps the Vikings - how far do you want to go back. Anyway, it has nothing to do with the Chinese sabre rattling and flexing of military might which will lead to a conflict sooner or later.

mike65

Judgement Day wrote: »

There is only going to be one outcome of the crazy arms race that the Chinese government are embarked upon and that is Armageddon. The senile old duffers in the Chinese Communist party will think nothing of trying to invade Taiwan when they feel that their navy is up to a stand-off with the USA.

Am I being alarmist?

The Chinese have discovered something that will maintain the peace - MONEY!

Judgement Day

mike65 wrote: »

The Chinese have discovered something that will maintain the peace - MONEY!

I hope so but I doubt it, it's almost like the progression from being an economic power to military power is evolution and can't be held back.

sink

Judgement Day wrote: »

Just to get one thing straight, I don't get my news from the Daily Mail, or any other newspaper, but I linked to the piece as it was the first item I came across with a photograph of the offending vessel. I don't make up my mind or think about things just because they are topical either. I have long considered China as a growing threat due to their military ambitions and there's no point burying your head in the sand over it. That said, they are just as likely to have a go at Russia as the US but that still leaves us heading for a nuclear showdown. The fact remains that China is yet another military dictatorship that Western countries go out of their way to be nice to. Any chance of some rational comments - without reference to my Daily Mail link - this isn't After Hours?

Another link here refers to growing tensions between India and China - more alarmist claptrap? http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=4776&Cat=13&dt=3/21/2011

and here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/04/us-china-defence-idUSTRE7230ZN20110304 from Reuters refers to tensions with Japan and how the announced spending rises should be taken with a grain of salt coming as they do from a regime that is unaccountable to its own citizens i.e. they may in fact be spending far more on military spending than admitted.

China isn't a military dictatorship, it's a technocratic oligarchy. Power is not concentrated in any one persons hands but rather in a number of senior communist party figures. And they do not stem from the military, they are mainly come from engineering and scientific backgrounds and by most accounts they're viewed as moderate and conservative.

Judgement Day

sink wrote: »

China isn't a military dictatorship, it's a technocratic oligarchy. Power is not concentrated in any one persons hands but rather in a number of senior communist party figures. And they do not stem from the military, they are mainly come from engineering and scientific backgrounds and by most accounts they're viewed as moderate and conservative.

Call it what you like. The unelected communist party officials run the country and the army and that's a military dictatorship what ever way you add it up - in my book.

sink

Judgement Day wrote: »

Call it what you like. The unelected communist party officials run the country and the army and that's a military dictatorship what ever way you add it up - in my book.

No, a military dictatorship is when one senior military figure controls the country with absolute authority. China has no one single leader with absolute authority, none of Chinas leaders come from a military background therefore China is not a military dictatorship. You can call it many things such as a police state, totalitarian and oppressive, but it is not under any sensible definition a military dictatorship.

Judgement Day

sink wrote: »

No, a military dictatorship is when one senior military figure controls the country with absolute authority. China has no one single leader with absolute authority, none of Chinas leaders come from a military background therefore China is not a military dictatorship. You can call it many things such as a police state, totalitarian and oppressive, but it is not under any sensible definition a military dictatorship.

Okay - a totalitarian, oppressive, military regime - will that do?

phosphate

How many countries have China invaded in last 10 years?

Then tell me how many the US have invaded or attacked...

sink

Judgement Day wrote: »

Okay - a totalitarian, oppressive, military regime - will that do?

Not a military regime! You know words tend to have specific meaning you can't just substitute one for the other and expect to make sense.

Military regimes by their composition tend to be more militaristic, China is not governed by the military and tends to take a less militaristic approach. In international relations it prefers to use soft economic power rather than hard edged military might.

Killer Pigeon

Isn't China just extremely authoritarian capitalist?

Judgement Day

phosphate wrote: »

How many countries have China invaded in last 10 years?

Then tell me how many the US have invaded or attacked...

Regardless of that, I feel less threatened by the US than the Chinese. :rolleyes:

Also, it is only now that the Chinese are getting near to being in a position to invade anywhere with the modernisation of their armed forces - especially their navy. Their last big adventure was in 1979 against North Vietnam which saw them humilated.

phosphate

Judgement Day wrote:

Regardless of that, I feel less threatened by the US than the Chinese.

oh, well that's okay then, as long as they aren't pissing on you, no problem.

Also, it is only now that the Chinese are getting near to being in a position to invade anywhere with the modernisation of their armed forces - especially their navy.

So you have good reason to believe they will invade a country?

Their last big adventure was in 1979 against North Vietnam which saw them humilated.

Are we talking about the US or China? just joking..
This all reminds me of the South Park edition 'The Chinese Problem'

Many people believe that China will be the next empire.
We had the Greeks, the Romans, The British, The Americans and now it's China's turn to dominate the world.

sink

Judgement Day wrote: »

Regardless of that, I feel less threatened by the US than the Chinese. :rolleyes:

Also, it is only now that the Chinese are getting near to being in a position to invade anywhere with the modernisation of their armed forces - especially their navy. Their last big adventure was in 1979 against North Vietnam which saw them humilated.

It is along way from being able to project military power beyond it's immediate borders. For one thing that requires aircraft carriers and the Chinese have none. It has a number of amphibious assault vessels but without air cover they would be sitting ducks. They could invade Taiwan or Japan with fighter cover from the mainland but they could not go much farther.

Sponge Bob

Looks like a SIGINT play not a Projection as such

donaghs

phosphate wrote: »

oh, well that's okay then, as long as they aren't pissing on you, no problem.



So you have good reason to believe they will invade a country?



Are we talking about the US or China? just joking..
This all reminds me of the South Park edition 'The Chinese Problem'

Many people believe that China will be the next empire.
We had the Greeks, the Romans, The British, The Americans and now it's China's turn to dominate the world.

I find their relatively recent history a tad worrying, from government created famine in the 1950s that killed millions of Chinese, to the government imposed madness that was the Cultural Revolution of the 60s.

and the current intolerance towards dissent is not encouraging either.

Obviously, since the death of Mao, things have been improving. But its not that long ago. Modern China is very much an unknown quantity and with an unpredictable future ahead of it.

raymon

We will be ok , Michael Martin can negotiate with them in a Chinese accent

sink

donaghs wrote: »

I find their relatively recent history a tad worrying, from government created famine in the 1950s that killed millions of Chinese, to the government imposed madness that was the Cultural Revolution of the 60s.

and the current intolerance towards dissent is not encouraging either.

Obviously, since the death of Mao, things have been improving. But its not that long ago. Modern China is very much an unknown quantity and with an unpredictable future ahead of it.

The China of today looks very different from the China of the 50s, 60s and 70s even 80s. I don't think you can use a historic comparison to judge what it's likely to do today.

Nehaxak

I think this is all stemming more out of the perception America is no longer the biggest or only superpower who have the ability (and have done many a time in the recent past) to throw their weight around in the world.

Stop with the whole fox news alarmist type of crap, there's nothing to fear from China invading or otherwise and their global domination of trade worldwide could easily be stopped if the EU and US didn't allow themselves to become China's "bitches" in regards debt they now owe to China from their respective countries, including Ireland I'm sure.

The only "war" that will ever happen is that which is warmongered and started against China in the first place - which hopefully would never happen, as it will not end well for anyone on either side, or those caught in between.

I don't see why there shouldn't be another considerable superpower alongside America who are not always in agreement with them.

Anyway I love their food, I'll take a Chinese over a McD's any day !

milehip1

Judgement Day wrote: »

Is that what passes for a warship these days?

The Eithne looks like she could take her!

virmilitaris

Judgement Day wrote: »

Anybody else notice this truly alarming picture on Yahoo today? It's a Chinese warship in the Mediterranean - ostensibly there for humanitarian reasons in connection with the Libyan crisis but with the Chinese aiming to replace the US as the global military superpower....

So ? What's the point ?

You don't want the Chinese to replace the US as the worlds foremost military power ? Why ?

Judgement Day wrote: »

Anybody else notice this truly alarming picture on Yahoo today? It's a Chinese warship in the Mediterranean - ostensibly there for humanitarian reasons in connection with the Libyan crisis but with the Chinese aiming to replace the US as the global military superpower....

So ? What's the point ?

You don't want the Chinese to replace the US as the worlds foremost military power ? Why ?

The senile old duffers in the Chinese Communist party will think nothing of trying to invade Taiwan when they feel that their navy is up to a stand-off with the USA

I don't know where to begin here.

Firstly, referring to them as 'senile old duffers' shows a complete lack of understanding of, well basically anything that has happened in China in at least the last twenty years. They are anything but senile, not particularly old for politicians and not particularly communist, at least not communist in the traditional sense.

China may be run by a single party calling itself the Communist Party of China but it runs China as a (single party) Socialist Republic. I really can't understand why you would consider them to be senile, just look at what they have done to China in such a short period of time. From one of the worlds worst poorhouses to the workshop of the world in just about everything and still growing.

As for invading Taiwan, again, this sounds like some plot to some corny 1980's American TV show. It's not likely but not entirely inconceivable that Taiwan could end up peacefully reunifying with the mainland under some system akin to Hong Kong in the not too distant future. This is an extremely complicated situation which many people who comment on it don't understand.

The PRC may make claims to the ROC (Taiwan) and claim it reserves the right to use force but realistically it's much more important financially to maintain the status quo. Even if the ROC decided voluntarily to join the PRC tomorrow it would be non-direct control such as Hong Kong or Macau for the financial benefit it would provide.

Einhard

Judgement Day wrote: »

Any chance of some rational comments - without reference to my Daily Mail link - this isn't After Hours?

Any chance you'd respond to the rational comments I made in response to your irrational fears?

Another link here refers to growing tensions between India and China - more alarmist claptrap? http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=4776&Cat=13&dt=3/21/2011

There are also major tensions between India and Pakistan. Perhaps we should be worried about Indian expansionism? I fail to see how heigntened tensions between neighbouring states can support the charge of aggressive expansionism against one, but not the other.

and here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/04/us-china-defence-idUSTRE7230ZN20110304 from Reuters refers to tensions with Japan and how the announced spending rises should be taken with a grain of salt coming as they do from a regime that is unaccountable to its own citizens i.e. they may in fact be spending far more on military spending than admitted.

First off, it's in China's interests, both domestically and internationally, to publicise the growth in their military spending. Not much point beefing up one's capabilities if oen is gonna keep them hidden away.

More pertinently though, the figures are independently compiled by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, whose research mitigates against any massaging of the numbers by China or any other nation.

I have to say that you've completely failed to present a credible case for China's alleged aggressive expansionism, and why we should tremble before the yellow peril. You've mentioned China's military expenditure, which is dwarved by that of the US, and as a % of GDP is quite unremarkable, especially for a nation playing catch up militarily speaking.

You've mentioned that there are tensions between China and her neighbours, as if all other nations have perfectly harmonious relations with their neighbours.

You've mentioned a solitary Chinese ship in the Med, yet everyone from Russia to the Us to Britain have, not single vessels, but entire fleets sailing about the place.

And lastly, you've mentioned a Daily Mail article, whose author is predicting a future in which China is bellicose and expansionist, yet who couldn't anticipate French intervention in Libya a mere 11 days in advance.

I'm sorry, but in answer to your question, yes, you're being alarmist.

Judgement Day

milehip1 wrote: »

Judgement Day wrote: »

Is that what passes for a warship these days?

The Eithne looks like she could take her!

I suspect that the "Xuzhou" would probably be able to take out the entire Irish Naval service without difficulty - technical details here:

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/type054a-jiangkai-ii.asp

Liam Byrne

Even if the Chinese were coming, the Americans are already here using our airport for an illegal war.

So the phrase "kettle, pot" springs to mind.

petroltimer

Predator_ wrote: »

Alarming to who?!
It wasnt the Chinese who invaded and destroyed this country for 800 years, it was the west.
I welcome any challenge to the west.

my bloodline goes back to the early irish, so just wondering when you celts who have been oppressing us for 2500 years are going to bugger off back to where you came from.

rickyjb

Judgement Day wrote: »

Anybody else notice this truly alarming picture on Yahoo today? It's a Chinese warship in the Mediterranean - ostensibly there for humanitarian reasons in connection with the Libyan crisis but with the Chinese aiming to replace the US as the global military superpower....

The Chinese. A great bunch of lads:pac:

Look at them there aren't they great...

Judgement Day

Just in case I maybe accused of racism.

milehip1

Judgement Day wrote: »

milehip1 wrote: »

I suspect that the "Xuzhou" would probably be able to take out the entire Irish Naval service without difficulty - technical details here:

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/type054a-jiangkai-ii.asp

nice link,but my orginal toughts were correct shes a frigate not a warship.

Judgement Day

milehip1 wrote: »

Judgement Day wrote: »

nice link,but my orginal toughts were correct shes a frigate not a warship.

I think you're confusing warship with battleship. Here is a definition of a warship: http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Warship

A battleship is a different and now redundant form of naval equipment. The US was the last navy to operate battleships see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battleships_of_the_United_States_Navy

As far as I know, the last action in which a battleship took part was the bombardment of Lebanon by the USS New Jersey (pictured below) in 1983.

Manic Moran

Oooh.. Nice looking Frigate. China's starting to spend a respectable amount of money on its military. Varyag, or whatever they're calling it now, should be up and running next year.

China ramping up isn't the end of the world. They've got the money, the manpower, why shouldn't they? They're still well counter-balanced by the US Navy.

As far as I know, the last action in which a battleship took part was the bombardment of Lebanon by the USS New Jersey (pictured below) in 1983

Wisconsin and Missouri partook in the fun and games in the Persian Gulf in 1991.



In addition to lobbing cruise missiles, the battleships also effectively captured about 50 Iraqi soldiers. They saw what the God-awful huge shells (Seriously, 406mm in the world of modern land warfare where 203mm is considered top end) were doing to the artillery battery up the road, looked up, saw the spotter aircraft (a Pioneer drone), put two and two together and decided surrendering to the ship's drone would be a good idea.

NTM

milehip1

Judgement Day wrote: »

milehip1 wrote: »

I think you're confusing warship with battleship. Here is a definition of a warship: http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Warship

A battleship is a different and now redundant form of naval equipment. The US was the last navy to operate battleships see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battleships_of_the_United_States_Navy

As far as I know, the last action in which a battleship took part was the bombardment of Lebanon by the USS New Jersey (pictured below) in 1983.

I bow to your superior navel knowledge Sir, or should that be Admiral!

Manic Moran

As you can see, the Chinese have given Varyag quite the makeover. Officially it's a floating casino.



Ummmm..... Right.

NTM