Legal calibre for shooting Muntjac???

clivej

Just reading the post above on the hunting seasons and see that Muntjac are classed as vermin but they are a deer, therefore can they only shot with a deer legal calibre????

Tackleberrywho

clivej wrote: »

Just reading the post above on the hunting seasons and see that Muntjac are classed as vermin but they are a deer, therefore can they only shot with a deer legal calibre????

Yes Deer legal calibre. That is why 2-3 years ago you got notification in your Stalking permit to shoot them on sight.

Half-cocked

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Yes Deer legal calibre.

A pity, all those .223's out there would be perfect for Muntjac, as would heavy shotgun loads close up. If we were serious about getting rid of this introduced pest, it wouldn't be restricted to deer calibres. I suppose they don't want to have to change legislation etc.

bunny shooter

Any link to verify the minimum calibre requirement?

MacraPat

This nicely-nicely approach to invasives like Muntjac sickens me.:mad::mad:
It's attitudes like this which have the genetic heritage of our Kerry red deer herd at risk due to hybridisation with the sikas. The same goes for mink or grey squirrels. We're an island nation for god sake! It should be well within our capabilities of clearing out a species! We did it with the coypu, the wolf, the wild boar, eagles and god knows what else! What has changed?

The general public need to know the dangers of muntjac to the ecosystem, how they're not ment to be here and why it's imperitive they leave immediately. The Department of the Enviroment has to employ every possible route of extermination; stalkers, shooters, huntsmen, coursers, primary school children. Hunt down the Muntjac then the eejits that brought them in!

It's a matter of civic pride and ecological nationalism!!

J. Ramone

Did any survive the freeze?

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

Any link to verify the minimum calibre requirement?

You'll see it on the back of your Deer hunting permit!

bunny shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You'll see it on the back of your Deer hunting permit!

Hard for me to see it when I don't have one :rolleyes:

A scan of same or a quote relevant to your claim on minimum calibre please:)

All you said was on it that you were "to shoot them on sight", BUT does it mention calibre?

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

Hard for me to see it when I don't have one :rolleyes:

A scan of same or a quote relevant to your claim on minimum calibre please:)

All you said was on it that you were "to shoot them on sight", BUT does it mention calibre?

Bunny

I have not time to scan licence as I have to head into town and I never remember how to use the scanner on my printer (so it takes me ages to get it done)

However, I'm sure if you E-mail Ballybay they will tell you same.

Deer so a deer hunting calibre is needed.
Season =Open as they are invasive species like Zebra mussels etc and need to be nipped in the bud.

I'm sure you would have a reply from Ballybay sooner than I am back from town (need haircut for St.Patricks day parade)

Half-cocked

The application form for a deer hunting license used to specify .22/250 with 55gr bullets as the legal minimum. The form no longer has any specification. NPWS now insist on a 60gr bullet minimum. Do they have the option to issue a Muntjac specific license for a smaller calibre rifle? Or are their hands tied in that they have to issue a license that covers all deer species and therefore must stick to the minimum that will kill the big species humanely?

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

Any link to verify the minimum calibre requirement?

I thought of an easier way!

Grizzly 45

And while we are about it,ask how many have been actually shot,and verified by NPWS viewing the carcass,or interviewing the hunter as actual muntjac,and whereabouts in Ireland??Not going from the by now unreliable deer shoot returns,as they must be skewed to hell now with all the poaching.
As we only have had one verified picture and kill.Yet the way some people are carrying on you would swear they are as common as crows.:rolleyes:

ballistic

MacraPat wrote: »

This nicely-nicely approach to invasives like Muntjac sickens me.:mad::mad:
It's attitudes like this which have the genetic heritage of our Kerry red deer herd at risk due to hybridisation with the sikas. The same goes for mink or grey squirrels. We're an island nation for god sake! It should be well within our capabilities of clearing out a species! We did it with the coypu, the wolf, the wild boar, eagles and god knows what else! What has changed?

The general public need to know the dangers of muntjac to the ecosystem, how they're not ment to be here and why it's imperitive they leave immediately. The Department of the Enviroment has to employ every possible route of extermination; stalkers, shooters, huntsmen, coursers, primary school children. Hunt down the Muntjac then the eejits that brought them in!

It's a matter of civic pride and ecological nationalism!!

I am a deer stalker. I dont really have an opinion on Muntjac (so i am not taking sides!). I would be interested in finding out exactly what damage they would do.

What animal or plant will suffer as a result of their introduction?

How will they impact on our biodiversity?

How do our ecosystems compare to countries that have muntjac i.e Britain?
No generalisations please.

Half-cocked

Just off the phone to Ballybay. Confirmed - .22/250 with 60gr bullet the legal minimum for all deer species, including Muntjac, just as I suspected. The wise ones who drew up the rules never foresaw the intruduction of a species that could probably be humanely dispatched with a .22 magnum. Typical legislative myopia. But you can take a crack at one of those wild boar rumoured to be present in certain parts with no legal minimum because the same lack of foresight didn't legislate for them either. I think we need new legislation, you can legaly shoot a 150Kg boar with a .22lr (if you were that stupid) but need a .22/250 for a 15Kg Muntjac.

Half-cocked

ballistic wrote: »

I am a deer stalker. I dont really have an opinion on Muntjac (so i am not taking sides!). I would be interested in finding out exactly what damage they would do.

What animal or plant will suffer as a result of their introduction?

How will they impact on our biodiversity?

How do our ecosystems compare to countries that have muntjac i.e Britain?
No generalisations please.

Taken from the British Deer Society website:

'Economic factors. Unlike other species of deer in Britain, muntjac do not cause significant damage to agricultural or timber crops. However, high muntjac densities may result in the prevention of coppice regeneration and the loss of some plants of conservation importance, such as primulas.'

OK, so maybe not the destructive vermin we've been led to believe?

MacraPat

ballistic wrote: »

I am a deer stalker. I dont really have an opinion on Muntjac (so i am not taking sides!). I would be interested in finding out exactly what damage they would do.


What animal or plant will suffer as a result of their introduction?

How will they impact on our biodiversity?

Muntjac have also become a major problem to the environmental conservationist as they impact woodland eco-systems and their biodiversity primarily by removing the shrub layer, causing a change in woodland architecture and microclimate. Muntjac are associated with reductions to rare or nationally important flowering plants such as Bluebells, Dogs’ Mercury, native species of Orchid, Cowslips, Oxlips, Devils Bit Scabious, Honeysuckle and Wood Anemone to name but a few.

Impacts at ground level in the Muntjac’s browsing of young seedlings of canopy trees also have a profound effect on woodland regeneration. Throughout Wood A and surrounding areas, it is possible to see hundreds of saplings approximately 12 to 14 inches in height that have had their tops browsed off. Each time the sapling puts out further growth, it is removed by the deer. This gives the effect of ‘broken arrows’ sticking out of the ground as far as the eye can see.
Taken from "The Hunting Life" website http://www.thehuntinglife.com/reasons-for-actively-managing-muntjac-deer/ for more.

ballistic wrote: »

How do our ecosystems compare to countries that have muntjac i.e Britain?
No generalisations please.

I'll be honest, I don't know. I imagine the Britain has proportionally more forests and less bog land than we do. ~(hard to find figures). Ireland being predominantly pastoral grassland, bog and a little tillage and less forestry. Grassland, bog and tillage land isn't really suited towards Muntjacs due to lack of varied browsing material and cover.

Realistically speaking any Muntjac in Ireland are far,far,far from home.

ballistic

Thanks for that Macrapat.

Kind of gets me thinking about how different our countryside would be if Sikka and Fallow had not been introduced or the many non native trees that Coillte have covered the countryside in or indeed the changes that modern agriculture have brought. Are we in a situation where we are trying to protect an ecosystem that is no longer native with or without Muntjac?

MacraPat

ballistic wrote: »

Kind of gets me thinking about how different our countryside would be if Sikka and Fallow had not been introduced or the many non native trees that Coillte have covered the countryside in or indeed the changes that modern agriculture have brought. Are we in a situation where we are trying to protect an ecosystem that is no longer native with or without Muntjac?

The clearing of Ireland's native woodland began with the Neolithic farmers around about 3500BC and continued up until the British had their naval fleet. That's a lot of woodlands cut down. The Romans didn't invade us properly because our forests and boglands didn't suit their battle field plans. The do mention lush grazing for cattle however. I'd say the game bag in that period of history would be very different than today. Grouse, Capercaillie, Grey Partridge, Great Bustard, Quail, Hare, Wild boar, Red Deer, Brown Bears possibly even Aurochs aswell and all the usual waterfowl /marsh birds too. The basic unit of Ireland's ecosystem was the forest(Oak,Ash,Hazel,Pine etc. NOT Sitka) if we had that back in decent amounts certainly boar could make a come back without being too much of a nuisance.
I don't mind the fallow too much as they're here the best part of 800 years and they don't erode the genetic integrity of the native red strain. They do compete with them however.....:rolleyes:

Where do we strike the balance with natural history? I don't know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4zJV_S3adA

Can we turn the clock be turned back ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDjhSz4CSB8

ballistic

I don't mind the fallow too much as they're here the best part of 800 years and they don't erode the genetic integrity of the native red strain. They do compete with them however.....

Could Irish people of the future look upon muntjac in the same way?

Tackleberrywho

ballistic wrote: »

I don't mind the fallow too much as they're here the best part of 800 years and they don't erode the genetic integrity of the native red strain. They do compete with them however.....

Could Irish people of the future look upon muntjac in the same way?

Quite possibly
People love shooting fallow as they are Taaaaaaaaasty and lighter than red.

The concept of deer that are easily carried by one person and yet contain quality red meat!

I'd be more concerned about the unknown, what effect would they have on river banks etc

virminhunter

someone on here said before that they wreck salmon spawning beds:mad:

Tackleberrywho

virminhunter wrote: »

someone on here said before that they wreck salmon spawning beds:mad:

Even changing the natural watercourse through rapid erosion

J. Ramone

Apologies for off topic but here's a report with a distribution map showing several 10k quadrants with "positive" muntie sightings in Wicklow and Kildare;

http://invasives.biodiversityireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/Deer-Distribution-R.Carden-2010.pdf

The invasive species website on the other hand only appears to recognise one quadrant in wicklow and one in Down. Maybe Dr. Cardens data wasn't convincing enough for them.

http://invasives.biodiversityireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/Inv-distribution-maps-Dec-102.pdf

Then of course there's the shooting returns which if credible would have us all hoping to fill that spot on the wall of the hallway soon.

Anecdotaly reports of muntjac seem to be decreasing since the big media coverage in 2008.

My guess is that it will be a long time if ever that any of us will tool up specifically for em.

Half-cocked

MacraPat wrote: »

....certainly boar could make a come back without being too much of a nuisance.

Crop damage apart, they do predate ground nesting birds. I'd love to see them here, but not sure that reintroducing something missing for so long would be a good idea? I can already hear the cries for compo every time a herd of hungry piggies munches its way through some ones crops:D I saw a group of females with piglets making short work of my mates oat crop in Germany a few years back.

Grizzly 45

From Dr Cardens report;

Confirmed sightings of muntjac, comprising one or more deer, appear to be
concentrated in parts of Counties Wicklow and Kildare. There have also been reports
of muntjac from Counties Wexford, Leitrim, Sligo, Roscommon, Donegal and Longford,

although these are not, as yet, validated

So IOW there could be or maybe not muntjac in these areas??Very scientific analysis there Dr Carden!Missing of course that supposedly one was shot in Clare in 2008 from the deer returns.:rolleyes:
Personally I'd question Dr Cardens impartiallity on this,as she was that claimed in the national media that muntjac had been released here by "irresponsible hunters for somthing to shoot at".

Long on rethoric short on proof that report.:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

MacraPat wrote: »

.

The Romans didn't invade us properly because our forests and boglands didn't suit their battle field plans

So Gaul,Germanica[east of the Rhine],Briticannica,and most of now Yougoslavia,and parts of Italy itself WASNT coverd in forest or other unacessible terrain either??Wonder how they ever managed a then known world empire if they were THAT picky about terrain.:D
As to really why they never botherd with Hibernia[the sleeping land] is open to speculation and conjecture forever more.My theory is that Wales was too troublesome a province as an invasion base,as was Scotland.
Spend more time subduing the province with the extra leigons than planning an invasion.There is some teneous evidence that they did some trade or we did with them along the East coast.

. The do mention lush grazing for cattle however. I'd say the game bag in that period of history would be very different than today. Grouse, Capercaillie, Grey Partridge, Great Bustard, Quail, Hare, Wild boar, Red Deer, Brown Bears possibly even Aurochs aswell and all the usual waterfowl /marsh birds too.

Hmmm,a couple of those have ASFIK never been native to Ireland.Great Bustard and Capercaille.Ditto the bear would have been extinct post the last Ice age.Ditto Aurochs.If it didnt make it over pre the last ice age flooding the Irl/UK land bridge,we dont have it here.Hence St Paddy was fibbing us all about the snakes!!Did they have to have a referendum about driving serpents out of Ireland???:P:D

The basic unit of Ireland's ecosystem was the forest(Oak,Ash,Hazel,Pine etc. NOT Sitka) if we had that back in decent amounts certainly boar could make a come back without being too much of a nuisance.
I don't mind the fallow too much as they're here the best part of 800 years and they don't erode the genetic integrity of the native red strain. They do compete with them however.....:rolleyes:

Where do we strike the balance with natural history? I don't know

You cant anymore..We are where we are now.Certainly more emphasis should be put on growing native timber species and giving certain parts possibly of the country back to a original wild state.But like everything it has to pay its way,and thats why our "forests" here are actually a crop of pulp wood.It would be very costly to just encourage athe growth of oak or whatever,to both the land owner and Govt.

Our eco system is what it is now,and we are better managing whats there properly,rather than trying to go back in time.

MacraPat

I'll take your word for it on the Romans Grizzly, I was only relying on Junior Cert history!

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hmmm,a couple of those have ASFIK never been native to Ireland.Great Bustard and Capercaille.Ditto the bear would have been extinct post the last Ice age.Ditto Aurochs.If it didnt make it over pre the last ice age flooding the Irl/UK land bridge,we dont have it here.Hence St Paddy was fibbing us all about the snakes!!Did they have to have a referendum about driving serpents out of Ireland???:P:D

Well there's a Great Bustard (from Castletown Berehaven Co.Cork taken 9 December 1925) and Little Bustard(Ennis,Co.Clare, 1916) preserved in the National Natural History Museum . There were excellent capercaillie populations in Ireland's forests up to the great clearances of the elizabethan age. See http://www.jstor.org/pss/30100017 for a little more. The Cave Bear certainly didn't make it through the Pleistocene era, just as the Reindeer, Great Elk or Lemming didn't. However there are Brown Bear remains in caves in Co.Clare and Sligo which would place them up to 3000 years ago. The Aurochs survived up to the 1600's in Poland, whether they made it to Ireland at all I'm not sure. Wild beef does sound cool though :P

stick shooter

Half-cocked wrote: »

Just off the phone to Ballybay. Confirmed - .22/250 with 60gr bullet the legal minimum for all deer species, including Muntjac, just as I suspected. The wise ones who drew up the rules never foresaw the intruduction of a species that could probably be humanely dispatched with a .22 magnum. Typical legislative myopia. But you can take a crack at one of those wild boar rumoured to be present in certain parts with no legal minimum because the same lack of foresight didn't legislate for them either. I think we need new legislation, you can legaly shoot a 150Kg boar with a .22lr (if you were that stupid) but need a .22/250 for a 15Kg Muntjac.

For the benifit of johngalway fact rather than opinion and not what ifs and links from UK wild life laws .;)

bazza888

so goats and boar have no legal minimum cal??

Cass

They are classed as vermin and have no protection under the wildlife act therefore there is no specific caliber to be used to shoot them. However common sense is required. Do no shoot with a .22lr. In other words use the appropriate caliber to ensure a humane kill.

bazza888

no 22 birdshot so lads on here had good results on the goats with 223

lee70

i've never seen any Muntjac in kk have you.

johngalway

stick shooter wrote: »

For the benifit of johngalway fact rather than opinion and not what ifs and links from UK wild life laws .;)

Edi's post was to o with deer in Europe. You replied to his post, I replied to yours. That's the context of the posts, bend them all you like SS they still originate from the same point :rolleyes: Also what's FACT is other European countries allow the shooting of smaller species of deer with calibres that aren't deer legal here.

Ignore those facts all you want.

bazza888

in kk im not sure,im dont shoot there,iv never seen one anywhere else either though