The Irish Census

Brown Bomber

IT Solutions specialist CACI has won a £5.8 million contract to process the next Irish Census



11.01.10 - The contract, awarded by the Central Statistics Office in Ireland (CSO), for census printing and data capture services, is for the 2011 Census. This will be the third Census where CACI has provided an automated forms processing solution and printing services for the CSO, having previously managed both the 2001 and 2006 Census projects.

http://www.caci.co.uk/444.aspx



CACI are US military contractors involved in the abuse and torture at Abu Ghraib.


WARNING GRAPHIC

"Big Steve" and Abu Ghraib

FORT MEADE, Md. -- The man known as "Big Steve" did not attend the court-martial this month of Sgt. Michael J. Smith, an Army dog handler at Abu Ghraib. But no one could miss his looming presence in the courtroom. According to both the prosecution and defense, "Big Steve" was deeply involved in the abuse committed by Smith, who was convicted March 21 for using his dog to terrify prisoners.

"Big Steve," whose real name is Steven Anthony Stefanowicz, worked as an interrogator for military intelligence at Abu Ghraib. But he was no ordinary soldier. Stefanowicz was one of dozens of civilian employees from Virginia contractor CACI International hired by the Pentagon to work at the prison.

According to a military policeman who testified at the court-martial, Stefanowicz directed the abuse in one of the most infamous incidents captured on camera at Abu Ghraib: A prisoner in an orange jumpsuit being menaced with an unmuzzled dog.

GRAPHIC
http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/chapter_8/46.html
(...)

In addition to the use of dogs to terrify prisoners, those allegations include the use of sexual humiliation and stress positions, and denying prisoners medical care. At Fort Meade, Stefanowicz was not on trial, nor was he called to the witness stand. But throughout the proceedings he was a reminder of key unanswered questions about Abu Ghraib -- including why no one beyond a small group of enlisted soldiers has been prosecuted.

Stefanowicz was a near-constant presence in the military intelligence wing of the prison, someone whom military police said they knew by his gruff manner and towering stature. Soldiers who worked there described Stefanowicz -- a former Navy reserve intelligence specialist at the Defense Intelligence Agency -- as a human giant, standing roughly 6-foot-5, well over 240 pounds, with a full beard and an intimidating manner. At least three soldiers, an officer and another civilian contractor have said that he orchestrated or engaged in abuse.

In an interview with Army investigators on April 6 and 7, 2005, Cpl. Charles Graner accused Stefanowicz of leading abuse. Graner, who is serving 10 years in prison for crimes he committed at Abu Ghraib, was granted immunity from further prosecution in exchange for his cooperation.

Continued Here: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/03/31/big_steve


From the Taguba Report: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/taguba4.pdf

“I suspect that Col. Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action.”

Penn

From the Statistics Act 1993

36.—
Any person who fails or refuses to provide any requested information in response to a direction from the Director General under section 26 or 27 of this Act pursuant to a requirement made under section 25 of this Act shall be guilty of an offence.

44.—
(1) A person guilty of an offence under any provision of this Act shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding £20,000.
(2) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 36 of this Act he shall, if the contravention continues after conviction, be guilty of an offence on every day on which it continues and for each such offence he shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50, or
(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding £1,000.

As such, there is to be no advocation of boycotting the Census until I have discussed this with mods/admin. I'll leave the thread open for discussion of the company BB mentioned and CT's relating to that.

Thanks

caseyann

Doesnt that threat which it is a threat breach the human rights act of privacy?
So basically no one has any privacy if you think about it.

My name is URL

I'll not boycott it because I think the census is vital for future planning, but it's a very interesting piece of information. Thanks for sharing BB

Monty Burnz

Where is the conspiracy theory??

Conglomerate with division that supplies printing services also provides security services to US in Iraq. This is public domain information - where is the conspiracy? I can understand the desire to make a political/ethical point about this, but do so at your own risk.

Edit: On another note, why in god's name were the US army using civilian contractors as interrogators? Plausible deniability? Trying to get around the rules?

joebucks

IS there not an Irish firm that could perform the census?? CACI has conducted the last two censi, who conducted the surveys before that?

It's a joke how much work that our government/political parties outsource abroad..

Brown Bomber

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Where is the conspiracy theory??

Either our public servants haven't applied due dilligence or are morally bankrupt.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Edit: On another note, why in god's name were the US army using civilian contractors as interrogators? Plausible deniability? Trying to get around the rules?

Why are you calling them interrogators? They are torturers, rapists and murderers.

This is just my own conclusion but I suspect the Abu GHraib "third-party nationals" were Shin Bet or former Shin Bet.



Nobody does torture of innocent Arabs quite like the Israelis.

For example, from Human Rights Watch

Another former prisoner, Ibrahim Qalash, detained without charge in Khiam from 1985 to 1990, said that two Israelis who spoke heavily accented Arabic interrogated him about twenty times during a sixty-day period. He described how he was hanged from his bound wrists for long periods and electric-shocked on his fingers, feet, and ears.

"The Israelis would start asking questions, and then call in Lebanese and instruct them on the type of torture to use," he told me. Qalash also testified that one of his Israeli interrogators once became "fed up" and told the Lebanese militiamen present: "Take him and do whatever you want with him."

He said that his worst experience was "being suspended from my wrists outside and hearing the cries of people in the interrogation room. You could tell the type of torture from the screams. When they used electricity, the first thing you heard was a high-pitched cry." Qalash was a witness to the circumstances of the death of Ali Hamzeh in 1985, who he said was hanged naked on a cold night and found dead the next morning.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/10/27/torture-khiam-prison-responsibility-and-accountability

1990-1999

Until the 1999 High Court of Justice ruling of 1999, the Israeli security forces tortured thousands of Palestinian detainees each year. According to PCATI's estimates, almost all interrogees during this period of time were the victims of at least one form of torture during their interrogation.
The GSS interrogation process was not regulated in law but was conducted according to the recommendations of the Landau Commission. Only a part of the Landau Commission report has been published, the section detailing interrogation methods remains classified.
Methods of interrogation and torture used by the GSS included:

• Binding in painful position for hours over consecutive days while covering the head of the interrogee with a wet, foul-smelling sack.
• Beating.
• Shaking (shaking the body and head of the detainee back and forth by a GSS agent who grabs the interrogee by the shoulders or shirt).
• Sleep prevention and withholding of food.
• Exposure to cold or heat.
• Binding to a small, slanted chair.
• Verbal abuse, cursing and psychological humiliation.
• Exposure to loud music.
• Threats against the detainee or his family.
• Prevention of basic hygienic conditions and changes of clothes.
• Isolation from the outside world (including from attorneys and family members) at times for months.

All of the above resulted in psychological and physical harm to detainees which at times was irreversible, and in several cases led to death.
In September 1999, the High Court of Justice accepted a significant number of the arguments raised in the petitions filed by PCATI and other human rights organizations. The Court's decision prohibited the use of a number of methods of interrogation and torture and ruled that the GSS has no authority to use violent means of interrogation and that the interrogation authority of the GSS is identical to that of the police.
‹ Torture in Israelupseptember 2000-2001 ›

1999 - Present
http://www.stoptorture.org.il/en/skira1999-present




A more complete history here
http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/EPP/Chapter23_1of2.htm

Monty Burnz

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Why are you calling them interrogators?

Because of this bit of your post...

"Big Steve," whose real name is Steven Anthony Stefanowicz, worked as an interrogator for military intelligence at Abu Ghraib.

I guess being an interrogator does not preclude you from being a torturer too. As I said, I find it very odd the amount 'civilian' contractors who are waging war on behalf of the US. I think many things work better when privatised, but I don't think war is one of them.

gizmo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Because of this bit of your post...

I guess being an interrogator does not preclude you from being a torturer too. As I said, I find it very odd the amount 'civilian' contractors who are waging war on behalf of the US. I think many things work better when privatised, but I don't think war is one of them.

Indeed, the meteoric rise of PMCs around the world is one of the things that really does scare the **** out of me and it's something I'm quite surprised hasn't really been covered around here. The mere fact that there is almost a 50/50 split between US forces and private military contractors currently in Iraq is pretty god damn astounding, especially when it compares with a little over 15% during Vietnam.

And easy up on the Israeli/Arab murdering thing, it's not like the other side is any better when they're at their worst.

Di0genes

gizmo wrote: »

Indeed, the meteoric rise of PMCs around the world is one of the things that really does scare the **** out of me and it's something I'm quite surprised hasn't really been covered around here. The mere fact that there is almost a 50/50 split between US forces and private military contractors currently in Iraq is pretty god damn astounding, especially when it compares with a little over 15% during Vietnam.

And easy up on the Israeli/Arab murdering thing, it's not like the other side is any better when they're at their worst.

Indeed

The parents of the family from the West Bank settlement of Itamar were stabbed to death along with three of their children aged 11, 4, and 4 months

I'd like to think every side on this discussion can roundly display their horror at the behaviour of people who intentionally murder babies.

Brown Bomber

Di0genes wrote: »

Indeed



I'd like to think every side on this discussion can roundly display their horror at the behaviour of people who intentionally murder babies.

Of course, but the CSO hasn't hired the Al Aqsa Martyrs for carrying out the Irish Census have they? They've hired an organisation that is implicated in rape, torture, and murder on illegally detained men and women.

What two sides can there be?

phosphate

gizmo wrote:

And easy up on the Israeli/Arab murdering thing, it's not like the other side is any better when they're at their worst.

Di0genes wrote:

I'd like to think every side on this discussion can roundly display their horror at the behaviour of people who intentionally murder babies.

Could either of you clarify what exactly you're implying here?

CACI are implicated in torturing Iraqi people and you both make references to something completely irrelevant.

Statements which I would conclude, express support of CACI in a tacit manner.

Monty Burnz

phosphate wrote: »

Statements which I would conclude, express support of CACI in a tacit manner.

Personally I would not interpret Diogenes saying that we should all abhor the murderers of babies as equalling support for CACI, tacit or otherwise.

phosphate

Monty Burnz wrote:

Personally I would not interpret Diogenes saying that we should all abhor the murderers of babies as equalling support for CACI, tacit or otherwise.

So why mention the story at all?

My name is URL

phosphate wrote: »

So why mention the story at all?

Because when they cannot dismiss the point being put forward they try to obfuscate it by throwing up all sorts of unrelated trite in an attempt to detract from the original point.

Monty Burnz

phosphate wrote: »

So why mention the story at all?

I'm guessing, because I only have access to the same information that you do (i.e. what is written above) but I would say that they mentioned that crime because the OP drew attention to some of the crimes perpetrated by the other side of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

gizmo

phosphate wrote: »

Could either of you clarify what exactly you're implying here?

CACI are implicated in torturing Iraqi people and you both make references to something completely irrelevant.

Statements which I would conclude, express support of CACI in a tacit manner.

I was specifically referring to the line:

Nobody does torture of innocent Arabs quite like the Israelis.

which, given its sweeping nature, I replied with my link which shows that the worst of both sides (and I regard torturers on both sides as some of the worst) are as bad as each other.

refusnik

gizmo wrote: »

I was specifically referring to the line:

which, given its sweeping nature, I replied with my link which shows that the worst of both sides (and I regard torturers on both sides as some of the worst) are as bad as each other.

In fairness it's true, has been for decades. They've been torturing Palestinians and Lebanese in prisons since the six-day-war. The reason I brought it up is because the US torture of detainees in Abu Ghraib (and Bagram) is wholly consistent with the torture methods by Israelis - rape, dogs, electric shocks etc.

The question was asked "why so many contractors?" I was answering honestly, that their use is that they are inside the military chain of command but outside the military's legal jurisdiction and the checks and balances that goes with it, they are a law unto themselves essentially.

I'll give you an example of Israeli sadist pschyopaths torturing innocent Iraqi people.
The following text is the testimony given by Professor Ali Shalal, who was tortured at Abu Ghraib Prison. This statement was presented to the War Crimes Commission set up under the helm of former Prime Minister Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad, as evidence in the procedure launched in Kuala Lumpur directed against US President George W. Bush, Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair and Australia's Prime Minister John Howard.

Full Sworn Testimony Here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20070219&articleId=4865

Don't read if you are easily offended.

I, Ali Sh. Abbas (alias Ali Shalal) of full age and an Iraqi citizen do hereby solemnly and sincerely declare as follows:

(...)

In the morning, an Israeli stood in front of me and took the bag from my head and told me in Arabic that he was an Israeli had interrogated and tortured detainees in Palestine. He told me that when detainees would not cooperate, they would be killed. He asked me repeatedly for names of resistance fighters. I told him that I do not know any resistance fighters but he would not believe me, and continued to beat me.

This Israeli dressed in civilian clothes tortured me by inserting in turn first with a jagged wooden stick into my rectum and then with the barrel of a rifle. I was cut inside and bled profusely. During this time, when any guard walked past me, they would beat me. I had no food for 36 hours.

The next morning, the Israeli interrogator came to my cell and tied me to the grill of the cell and he then played the pop song, "By the Rivers of Babylon" by Pop Group Boney M, continuously until the next morning. The effect on me was that I lost my hearing, and I lost my mind. It was very painful and I lost consciousness. I only woke up when the Israeli guard poured water on my head and face. When I regain consciousness, he started beating me again and demanded that I tell him of the names of resistance fighters and what activities that I did against the American soldiers. When I told him that I did not know any resistance fighters, he kicked me many times.

yahoomac

i see the threat of a fine if you dont answer all the questions well what did the irish goverment do with all the answers from the last census they made a fine mess of planning for our future with the info we gave them

My name is URL

It's certainly a bit comical that filling out the census is compulsory while voting is not. I've almost half a mind to leave mine blank just to see what happens =p

squod

Wasn't here when the form was delivered. Would like to be able to hand the numerator something when he collects them. Any ideas?

I'm thinking an A5 page with three or four points he/she may not be aware of. Let them know who they're working for like.

tony 2 tone

squod wrote: »

Wasn't here when the form was delivered. Would like to be able to hand the numerator something when he collects them. Any ideas?

I'm thinking an A5 page with three or four points he/she may not be aware of. Let them know who they're working for like.

The enumerators work for the CSO, not CACI.

squod

tony 2 tone wrote: »

The enumerators work for the CSO, not CACI.

You know what I mean. The Scotts had a petition done for their census (with CACI). Why not us?

BumbleB

Barrington wrote: »

From the Statistics Act 1993

36.—
Any person who fails or refuses to provide any requested information in response to a direction from the Director General under section 26 or 27 of this Act pursuant to a requirement made under section 25 of this Act shall be guilty of an offence.

44.—
(1) A person guilty of an offence under any provision of this Act shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding £20,000.
(2) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 36 of this Act he shall, if the contravention continues after conviction, be guilty of an offence on every day on which it continues and for each such offence he shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50, or
(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding £1,000.

As such, there is to be no advocation of boycotting the Census until I have discussed this with mods/admin. I'll leave the thread open for discussion of the company BB mentioned and CT's relating to that.

Thanks

I dont have any punt to pay these gougers.

tony 2 tone

squod wrote: »

You know what I mean. The Scotts had a petition done for their census (with CACI). Why not us?

What was the outcome of the petition in Scotland? Have you started one for the Irish census?

Brown Bomber

Di0genes wrote: »

Indeed



I'd like to think every side on this discussion can roundly display their horror at the behaviour of people who intentionally murder babies.

gizmo wrote: »

And easy up on the Israeli/Arab murdering thing, it's not like the other side is any better when they're at their worst.

NABLUS, (PIC)-- An Asian worker is suspected of the murder of the Fogel family, a settler family from Itamar settlement near the northern West Bank city of Nablus, according to Palestinian press sources.

Quds Net news quoted local residents fro at infuriated with an Israeli settler for not paying him his wages carried out the killing of the settler's family in Itamar, Palestinian press sources reported.

Quds Net news agency on Monday quoted a Palestinian family from Awarta village next to the settlement as saying that Mr. Fogel refused to pay 10,000 shekels in wages which he owed an Asian worker he hired. The worker threatened to kill the settler and his family.
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7PZME4Swq63ae3%2bFqNLQ1mYzHdix%2fLLbtr47kQXfYikZKqv4KRlRlSteS3V59uFMWf7mKk6zwjq17DqsuqHkQN44oOT39XW5RK8L6WpZqG58%3d

Brown Bomber

tony 2 tone wrote: »

What was the outcome of the petition in Scotland? Have you started one for the Irish census?

There is an online Irish equivalent. Just google it.

gizmo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

NABLUS, (PIC)-- An Asian worker is suspected of the murder of the Fogel family, a settler family from Itamar settlement near the northern West Bank city of Nablus, according to Palestinian press sources.

Quds Net news quoted local residents fro at infuriated with an Israeli settler for not paying him his wages carried out the killing of the settler's family in Itamar, Palestinian press sources reported.

Quds Net news agency on Monday quoted a Palestinian family from Awarta village next to the settlement as saying that Mr. Fogel refused to pay 10,000 shekels in wages which he owed an Asian worker he hired. The worker threatened to kill the settler and his family.
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7PZME4Swq63ae3%2bFqNLQ1mYzHdix%2fLLbtr47kQXfYikZKqv4KRlRlSteS3V59uFMWf7mKk6zwjq17DqsuqHkQN44oOT39XW5RK8L6WpZqG58%3d

Then why did the Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade claim responsibility for the attack calling it a "natural response to the massacres of the fascist occupation against our people.”

Brown Bomber

gizmo wrote: »

Then why did the Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade claim responsibility for the attack calling it a "natural response to the massacres of the fascist occupation against our people.”

Did they really though?...

That quote you've given was from a leaflet sent to reporters. Could've been from anyone really.

Al-Aqsa Brigades saying Monday in a statement that they

"oppose the targeting of civilians and killing of children no matter what the pretext may be."
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=368554

gizmo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Did they really though?...

That quote you've given was from a leaflet sent to reporters. Could've been from anyone really.

This seems to have been the source of the statement, whether it's true or not is indeed still up for debate.

Fatah's Al-Aqsa Brigades came under scrutiny after an offshoot with loose affiliation going by the "Imad Mughniyya Group" sent a statement to media outlets claiming to have carried out the attack, but details from the statement did not match statements from investigators. Members of the group in Gaza later denied any involvement.

The loose connection with the Al-Aqsa brigades saw some news reports point fingers at the group, prompting the release of a statement saying "All statements released by other groups claiming they are affiliated to Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades under any names, are false and unacceptable."

Why the **** they'd even want to connect themselves to such an attack is beyond me.

tony 2 tone

Brown Bomber wrote: »

There is an online Irish equivalent. Just google it.

I did. Brought up the fact that CACI UK Ltd did the data processing in 2002 and 2006 here. Where there any petitions then?

Is an online petition going to do any thing? Will it be shown to a government minister or CSO head?