Ireland's Hydrocarbon Reserves.

Monty Burnz

From your link:

"The potential is of at least 10 billion barrels of oil lying off the west coast of Ireland. "Well data indicate world-class source rocks. Volumetric assessment and expulsion modelling shows volumes of over 130 billion barrels of oil and 50 trillion cubic feet of gas."

So it hasn't been found at all. I laughed out loud when I got to the bit about us becoming a new Saudi Arabia.

shedweller

kippy wrote: »

What makes this a conspiracy, who gains, what exactly is the conspiracy?

shedweller wrote: »

The theory is that we are not being fully informed about our mineral wealth offshore.(And the financial rewards it brings to Ireland)

Who is involved? Our Great Leaders and their brown envelopes, and "Big Oil" and the banks...................
What have they to gain? Vast Sums Of Money!! Our money thats in the ground, while they simultaneously take our other money that we work for every day.

You are perfectly entitled to feel this thread doesn't belong here.
So perhaps you could tell me where it does belong?
It is a subject that needs more coverage and HAS the answer to our current financial pain.
The fact that i'm sensing some posters here, in a conspiract theory forum, would rather this subject wasn't talked about further makes me think this a conspiracy.:pac: Lol, imagine that!

Monty Burnz

Also from the link:

"If we get a big find we need to make sure we get a decent return, and when you go above a certain find, a different return.
"There needs to be an incentive there too, because it costs EUR70million any time they do an exploration drill.
"The state cannot afford to do that so we leave it to the private sector. It is a fine balance and we need to be careful we don't drive the exploration companies away."

kippy

shedweller wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to feel this thread doesn't belong here.
So perhaps you could tell me where it does belong?
It is a subject that needs more coverage and HAS the answer to our current financial pain.
The fact that i'm sensing some posters here, in a conspiract theory forum, would rather this subject wasn't talked about further makes me think this a conspiracy.:pac: Lol, imagine that!

Once more.
WHAT IS THE CONSPIRACY?
WHO IS INVOLVED?


Its easier to discuss a theory when the theory has been put forward.
Right now I dont understand what the theory is.

shedweller

Monty Burnz wrote: »

From your link:


So it hasn't been found at all. I laughed out loud when I got to the bit about us becoming a new Saudi Arabia.

Ah for feck sake. I posted a link to a page that had quotes from a certain John O'Sullivan, Exploration Manager with ProvidenceResources.
This is one:

"With Dunquin we are planning to drill wells next year and 2009. It is deep water, and as a rule of thumb, it takes about five years to get a field into production, so we are looking at 2013 to 2015.

And another quote:

"At Spanish Point we are looking at drilling wells next year and looking at production in that field in 2011,"

There is financial reward there. They wouldn't be there otherwise.

shedweller

WHAT IS THE CONSPIRACY?

That we have reserves of oil and gas but arent profiting from it. We aren't being told a whole lot about it either. We should, like other countries have. Norway, Sweden for example. They have a much better standard of living as a result.

WHO IS INVOLVED?

Exxon, Shell etc.

EditOh and our great leaders of course, for signing away the family silver, as it were.

Monty Burnz

shedweller wrote: »

There is financial reward there. They wouldn't be there otherwise.

Ok - I've tried to steer you towards the facts, and you aren't interested in putting in any effort to learn about the facts of oil exploration, so I'm out of this thread.

kippy

shedweller wrote: »

WHAT IS THE CONSPIRACY?

That we have reserves of oil and gas but arent profiting from it. We aren't being told a whole lot about it either. We should, like other countries have. Norway, Sweden for example. They have a much better standard of living as a result.

WHO IS INVOLVED?

Exxon, Shell etc.

EditOh and our great leaders of course, for signing away the family silver, as it were.

Is the conspiracy that Shell and Exxon have always known that there was oil/gas in Irish waters (to such a point as they knew exactly where they were) and that they bribed elected officials to give them a good deal if they found anything?
Or is the conspiracy that EUROPE are trying to pound Ireland into submission via financal (IMF ETC) means in order to make us hand over more of our natural resources in return?

Have you any evidence of this?


Your take on what is a conspiracy is very different to what mine would be to be honest. I would like to see some clarification.

shedweller

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Ok - I've tried to steer you towards the facts,

Have you? What facts are they again?

kippy

shedweller wrote: »

Have you? What facts are they again?

Have a look through this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056109782
Pretty comprehensive and since you are introducing nothing new here and dont seem to realise you still havent outlined exactly what the conspiracy is, I think you'd be better posting there.
Scofflaws posts are very informative.


That being said, I think we are changing the terms for any further prospecting licenses which makes sense.

Monty Burnz

shedweller wrote: »

Have you? What facts are they again?

I clearly suggested starting here: http://boards.fool.co.uk/oil-gas-companies-50029.aspx

...but if your reading comprehension is as bad as your reading of my posts suggests, don't waste your time. Stick with hearsay and random articles.

shedweller

kippy wrote: »

Is the conspiracy that Shell and Exxon have always known that there was oil/gas in Irish waters (to such a point as they knew exactly where they were) and that they bribed elected officials to give them a good deal if they found anything?
Or is the conspiracy that EUROPE are trying to pound Ireland into submission via financal (IMF ETC) means in order to make us hand over more of our natural resources in return?

Have you any evidence of this?


Your take on what is a conspiracy is very different to what mine would be to be honest. I would like to see some clarification.

I wouldn't say they always knew but i'm sure they know whats there now.
Your point about europe beating us into submission is interesting and it may well be true. But at the moment Shell and the boys are drilling and exploring away safe in the knowlege that they will pocket most of whatever they dig up. The fact that this is going on and nobody is hitting the streets implies a conspiracy of some sort.
It's a little bit more important than ufo threads at the very least. Is it not?

shedweller

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I clearly suggested starting here: http://boards.fool.co.uk/oil-gas-companies-50029.aspx

...but if your reading comprehension is as bad as your reading of my posts suggests, don't waste your time. Stick with hearsay and random articles.

I am making my way through that site. Lots to read. For example:

While Dunquin offers unlimited potential, it is very much a wildcat and a world away from the Spanish Point prospect to the north. Discovered by a Phillips Petroleum-led consortium in 1981, it is reckoned to contain at least 1.4 trillion cubic ft of gas and over 100 million barrels of oil. At the time of its discovery, Spanish Point was deemed too small to be commercially viable -- there was no demand for the gas and on top of that, a lack of infrastructure meant the cost of developing the find would have been prohibitive. Today, however, the economics are much more attractive and another well will be sunk on the field in 2008, with the objective of proving up more reserves and getting the ball rolling on a development.

Providence has other strings to its bow, including three discoveries in the Celtic Sea, the Dunmore and Helvick oil fields and the Ardmore gas find. It also controls another old Phillips oil discovery called Burren, located in the Porcupine Basin off the west coast.

Put together, these represent an impressive package of assets and it seems only a matter of time before one or more are actually producing oil or gas.

Not all of what i posted is hearsay either. I posted direct quotes from a lad from a drilling company. Thats not hearsay.

kippy

shedweller wrote: »

I wouldn't say they always knew but i'm sure they know whats there now.
Your point about europe beating us into submission is interesting and it may well be true. But at the moment Shell and the boys are drilling and exploring away safe in the knowlege that they will pocket most of whatever they dig up. The fact that this is going on and nobody is hitting the streets implies a conspiracy of some sort.
It's a little bit more important than ufo threads at the very least. Is it not?

Since nobody is hitting the streets are you implying that the irish population are also in on the conspiracy?

You still havent outlined what the conspiracy is, how you reckon it has come about and what actual evidence you have to back it up,

Brown Bomber

Sorry if this has been linked to earlier. This is just an article I remember reading on the topic that stuck with me. It's an interesting topic, I just couldn't be arsed reading through the "what's the conspiracy?" shyte-
How about...

'A Fair Deal For Ireland'?

This December (Budget 2011) Ireland will learn the outcome of one of the most important budgets in decades.
The talk will be about €3,4,5,6,7 billion? of cuts and €90+ billion of national debt, so what about the €420+ billion worth of natural resources off the west coast of Ireland – isn’t that worth another look.
Why?
Because those resources are going to an oil company in what’s described as one of the biggest giveaways in history…

• There are a series of gas and oil fields extending along the west coast of Ireland
• These include the Dunquin, Porcupine and Corrib fields
• The combined value is somewhere between €420 – €540 billion
• The value of the Corrib is somewhere between €10 – €50 billion

Shell to Sea have been campaigning on this issue for years, and regardless of perceptions (or portrayal) they have a point. Shell hope to be pumping Corrib gas in 2011. Ireland will still be suffering from the recession and seeking ways out of debt.
Ireland’s purse will not see a fair reward, so where has it gone wrong?
1967 – Ireland gave the rights for gas and oil in shallow waters to Marathon Oil.
1971 – the licenses to develop the Kinsale field were sub-let to the same company.
1975 – Ireland agreed a 50% tax on profits, a 50% shareholding, and royalties of 6 to 7%.
So far so good, but…
1984 - Minister for Energy Ray Burke renegotiates the agreement with Enterprise Oil (a British company headquartered in London), and against Department advice drops the 50% right to shareholding and discards the right to royalties.
1992 - Minister for Finance Bertie Ahern reduces the tax levy from 50% to 25% – the worlds lowest at the time, builds in a 100% write off for capital investment costs, and backdates the scheme for 25 years arguing that the changes will encourage exploration. However international experience shows that oil companies will pursue exploration anyway if the potential for profit exists.
The Corrib field then gets sold to Marathon Oil who enter into a consortium arrangement with Enterprise Oil. The rights for other fields are disposed of, and in 2002 Shell successfully exercise a hostile takeover of Enterprise Oil.
And what does this mean for Irelands Corrib resources now?
The Shell-led consortium will…

• Own 100% of the gas
• Pay no royalties to the Irish State
• Can write off 100% of their costs against tax
• Have profits taxed at 25% (the international average is 68% for oil-producing countries)
• Be able to export the gas outside Ireland
• Can choose whether or not to sell the gas back to Ireland at full market rates

Thus the only apparent benefit to the Irish State is a 25% corporation tax once all the corporations’ exploration and development costs are paid, including the anticipated costs of closing down their operations.
In 2007 Minister Eamon Ryan introduced a new ‘profit resource rent tax’ which will add a maximum of 15% tax on a graded basis of profitability. However this will only apply to the most profitable fields and crucially, as it’s not retrospective, will not in any way increase the potential takes on existing licenses, such as Corrib Gas and the much larger Dunquin and Lough Allen finds.
“No country in the world gives as favourable terms to the oil companies as Ireland”
Mike Cunningham, former director, Statoil E&P Ireland – source: the World Bank.
So it’s fair to say that as it stands, 100s of €billions worth of Irelands natural resources will be inflating energy companies private bank accounts over the next 20-30 years, with very little for Ireland in return.
Can Ireland really afford to be so generous?
Most governments would be upbeat about the benefits of natural resources to their country, but in Ireland this arrangement has turned it into ‘one of those things we don’t like to talk about’.
The government is concerned that any alteration would damage our reputation abroad, however it has been done before. Yep there’d be a big row, but right now we look like a soft touch, and if we want to convince the international community that we’re sorting out our finances then surely getting a fair deal for our natural resources makes sense.
Here’s the Shell to Sea website.
Now focus on the economics for a moment and put the reporting of Rossport to one side. We’re in recession, making cuts, emigration is on the up, and giving away resources so cheaply doesn’t seem right. Shell made approx €37 billion in profits over the last couple of years, Ireland didn’t. The Minister of Finance has warned of a possible €160bn of debt by 2013.
Shell expect the Corrib gas plant to employ approximately 55 workers when operational – any jobs are welcome but this is hardly a dent in our current employment problems.
We should be looking at a renegotiation, or at least a change in the tax levy, well so it seems to me anyway.
Mick (diaspora.ie)
(Note: this article was originally published in reference to the 2010 budget. Cuts at the time were approx €4 billion, and national debt was approx €80 billion).

http://diaspora.ie/starship/2009/12/budget-2011/

shedweller

Not hitting the streets because the news isn't getting out that we aren't getting a fair cut from the oil and gas profits. Too busy with coronation street and other ****e like that.
There are wells out there making money for someone. Ireland is not getting a fair slice of the cake. That point is not talked about a whole lot is it?
Thats the conspiracy. Like i said, it beats some stupid ufo crap.

iPlop

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Sorry if this has been linked to earlier. This is just an article I remember reading on the topic that stuck with me. It's an interesting topic, I just couldn't be arsed reading through the "what's the conspiracy?" shyte-
How about...

'A Fair Deal For Ireland'?

http://diaspora.ie/starship/2009/12/budget-2011/

We could pay off our sovereign debt and have a continuous flow of cash if we handn't sold off to MNC's ,John Perkins book comes to mind

Monty Burnz

Sink The Banana wrote: »

We could pay off our sovereign debt and have a continuous flow of cash if we handn't sold off to MNC's ,John Perkins book comes to mind

How??

shedweller

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Most governments would be upbeat about the benefits of natural resources to their country, but in Ireland this arrangement has turned it into ‘one of those things we don’t like to talk about’.

Oh boy do we not like to talk about it?!!

Monty Burnz

Just on a point of information - oil wealth usually has a detrimental effect on a society in the long run, hollowing out the economy.

shedweller

I suppose that would be like our reliance on building in recent years! Yes, it would hollow our economy to some extent. But the profits would sure plug a hole and give us a better standard of living. Corruption notwithstanding...

iPlop

Monty Burnz wrote: »

How??

How MNC's or "representatives" go into a country and bribe corrupt politicians for rights to natural resources ,have you seen "confessions of an economic hitman" by John Perkins? a self confessed economic hitman.

Monty Burnz

Sink The Banana wrote: »

How MNC's or "representatives" go into a country and bribe corrupt politicians for rights to natural resources ,have you seen "confessions of an economic hitman" by John Perkins? a self confessed economic hitman.

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the notion that there are pots of money in the sea just waiting for the Irish government to collect them. That's total codswallop to be fair. That is why you sign exploration deals with companies - they risk their capital and use their expertise to find and exploit oil that the government can't. And they won't sign the deals that risk their money and their expertise unless there is quite a big incentive - e.g. writing off costs, and only paying tax on profits. If it turns out they make a big find, you can't come back to them afterwards and try to change the terms of the deal.

There's nothing (and there never was) stopping the Irish government pouring billions of euros into hiring exploration rigs and randomly drilling in the Atlantic to find more oil. And if they happen to find some, and it's economically viable, then they can hire someone else to come and pump it out.

shedweller

They do risk their capital on exploratory drilling. but it's a very small percentage i'm sure.

I'm talking about the notion that there are pots of money in the sea just waiting for the Irish government to collect them. That's total codswallop to be fair.

Ok, it is not the easiest area to drill. But they are drilling there and they are geting something out of it. Come on, at least give me that!!:)

enno99

http://royaldutchshellplc.com/

Some nice reading here

Now couple these guys with our boy scouts could any body blame you for thinking conspiracy

kippy

Sorry, but I am still not seeing the conspiracy.
Everything that has happened appears (from my point of view) to be fairly transparent.
The issues you guys appear to have is that Ireland didn't negotiate a good deal for the country.
There NEVER was any chance that the irish government could actually do this exploration themselves - imagine the outcry if billions (and it would be in the billions) of money were poured into the act of drilling and all the activities that go on around it, on the slim ish chance of finding something, then the billions more to process it.
Essentially the issue ye have is that we are only getting a 25% cut of the profits (after the initial costs were written off). What percentage and terms do you think would be fair, bearing in mind these are currently up for review for future licenses.

Brown Bomber

kippy wrote: »

Essentially the issue ye have is that we are only getting a 25% cut of the profits (after the initial costs were written off). What percentage and terms do you think would be fair, bearing in mind these are currently up for review for future licenses.

This wouldn't have been bad would it?
Norway's sovereign wealth fund: £259bn and growing

Each morning Yngve Slyngstad heads to his office at the top floor of Norway's central bank and checks how the investments of the world's largest sovereign wealth fund outside the Middle East are doing. At £259bn, they have never been higher and could easily cover the UK's £175bn budget deficit.



The fund, in which Norway saves its oil and gas revenues from the North Sea, has become so large that it now owns more than 1% of the world's shares, is Europe's biggest equity investor and speaks for 1.7% of all listed European companies. Recent rises are the result of Slyngstad buying $175bn (£107.5bn) worth of equities when world markets crashed earlier this year, following the Norwegian government's decision to increase the share of equities in the fund from 40% to 60%.


(...)


The fund

Created in 1990, the Norwegian Government Pension Fund is the world's third-largest sovereign wealth fund, after the funds of Abu Dhabi and Saudi Arabia, according to the California-based Sovereign Wealth Fund Institute (this ranking, however, appears flexible: a 2007 UBS report puts the Norway fund in second place).



Commonly known as the oil fund, it invests the country's oil and gas income in stocks and bonds to save for future generations, when the hydrocarbons run out. Investments are made abroad to avoid overheating the economy.


Outside of crisis times, only 4% of the fund, the estimated long-term rate of return, is used in the state's national budget. The government made an exception this year, tapping into the oil fund to finance a package worth nearly 5% of gross domestic product to boost the economy.
The oil fund has become one of the most important issues of political debate in Norway. Although most parties agree to the 4% rule, the largest party in opposition, the populist Progress party, wants to spend more of the oil money for research and building infrastructure.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/sep/20/norway-sovereign-wealth-fund

Oh to be Norwegian where they save for future generations and not impose debt on the unborn to pay off Rothschild & friends.

shedweller

Well, i'm no economist but we could do with the money right now!
That money is being drilled right now.
That money is going into someone elses bank account.
I want some more of it to go into Irelands bank account. (to pour down a black hole.)
Other countries have gone back and asked for and got more money from the drilling of their reserves. Why arent we (asking for more)?
Because we are too bloody soft. And certain people aren't helping matters at all. Vested interests, anyone?
Ireland needs that money and we need to pull together to get it.
We need to cop on. It's our oil, it's our gas.

shedweller

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This wouldn't have been bad would it?
Norway's sovereign wealth fund: £259bn and growing




http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/sep/20/norway-sovereign-wealth-fund

Oh to be Norwegian where they save for future generations and not impose debt on the unborn to pay off Rothschild & friends.

You dig deep my friend. Well done.

K-9

shedweller wrote: »

Well, i'm no economist but we could do with the money right now!
That money is being drilled right now.
That money is going into someone elses bank account.
I want some more of it to go into Irelands bank account. (to pour down a black hole.)
Other countries have gone back and asked for and got more money from the drilling of their reserves. Why arent we (asking for more)?
Because we are too bloody soft. And certain people aren't helping matters at all. Vested interests, anyone?
Ireland needs that money and we need to pull together to get it.
We need to cop on. It's our oil, it's our gas.

What money is being drilled right now?

What bank account?