Enterprise Service and Drogheda

LXFlyer

Drogheda is not a stop on the corresponding main business train southwards - the 0800 ex-Belfast.

These two services are the key business trains between Northern Ireland and Dublin - stopping them at Drogheda slows them down further and dilutes the Enterprise product even more than it is already. The standard practice is for key Intercity services not to serve other stations that are generally served by other trains.

Look at the 1700 Dublin-Cork - first stop is Limerick Junction (most Cork trains serve other stations), 1705 Dublin-Tralee first stop is Templemore as examples.

What you should be looking at is getting less stops on the commuter service.

If you can't understand that I don't how else I can explain it to you.

markpb

positron wrote: »

I am not even asking for a 5% change to schedule.

Nope, you're asking for a change for you. What if everyone at the other stations asks for it to stop at their stations? Each stop is less than a 5% change too after all

Yes and no. Counter question i have is - the Drogheda trains now call into Portmarnock and Malahide, which are adequately serviced by DARTs.

Between 5pm and 7pm there are just three Darts leaving the city centre for Portmarnock - how is this adequate? There are the same number of trains running through Dundalk in the same timeframe even though Dundalk is a) further away and b) not in Dublin.

trellheim

You could ask IE to stick on a Mk.3 set Connolly->Dundalk ( they have many spare trains )

CIE

trellheim wrote: »

You could ask IE to stick on a Mk.3 set Connolly->Dundalk (they have many spare trains)

Better communicate that request quickly before they scrap 'em all. Better make sure they can un-mothball some 201-class engines to haul them as well.

Captain Chaos

What did they do with those Mk3 push pull sets again, oh yeah they scrapped 4 of the 5 DVTs. IE don't want to do run arounds on regular passenger trains anymore.

There is enough 201s left to do this btw since they have cut back on Mk4 services to Cork.

Besides, the Mk3s have been stored so long now I doubt they are in any condition to ever run again without completely refurbishing the internals, they are basically just rotting around the country

positron

lxflyer wrote: »

Drogheda is not a stop on the corresponding main business train southwards - the 0800 ex-Belfast
...
What you should be looking at is getting less stops on the commuter service.

lxflyer, I do understand what you are saying - however, adding a stop to the Enteprise service could be good (or bad, but may be good) to IrishRail over all - depending on how much additional business IrishRail will pickup because of this - I am sure there's people who would board the 16:50 from Drogheda if they had a choice - and additional passengers to Drogheda, and converts from car to train as they now have a more efficient, complete and timely service to Drogheda. Is it crystal clear that it's totally bad and nothing good will come out of this, or are we just talking personal opinions? When did IrishRail review this situation last, and are they likely to review this after certain period of time? Who should I speak to express interest?

markpb wrote: »

Between 5pm and 7pm there are just three Darts leaving the city centre for Portmarnock - how is this adequate? There are the same number of trains running through Dundalk in the same timeframe even though Dundalk is a) further away and b) not in Dublin.

Applying lxflyer's logic quoted above, they should be asking for more DARTs, not deteriorate Northern commuter services which is mainly to serve non-Dart stations further north of Dart line. But, you know that arguement will get no where as we are all trying to make do with whatever we have, cope with best of a bad situation etc.

Anyway, the case of Enterprise stopping at Drogheda is for the benefit for all commuters and other rail users from Drogheda, which includes me, and if I don't argue my case, no one else will..!

markpb

positron wrote: »

Applying lxflyer's logic quoted above, they should be asking for more DARTs, not deteriorate Northern commuter services which is mainly to serve non-Dart stations further north of Dart line.

The lack of proper turnback facilities at Malahide mean that if they had more Darts, they'd be blocking both lines on the Northern line every time a Dart terminated there. You might not be stopping at the station but you'd spend a lot of time being stopped either side of it so the impact on NL trains would be the same, if not worse.

Teddy455

There is enough 201s left to do this btw since they have cut back on Mk4 services to Cork

have they cut back on mk4 services? why?

Drogheda is an essential stop on the enterprise service just like dundalk it is a long distance from dublin and commuter trains stop at stations served by DART which should not be on the service as it is already served by enough DART trains and also it lenghtens commute times for long distance travellers

markpb

Teddy455 wrote: »

Drogheda is an essential stop on the enterprise service just like dundalk it is a long distance from dublin and commuter trains stop at stations served by DART which should not be on the service as it is already served by enough DART trains and also it lenghtens commute times for long distance travellers

Show me a station which is well served by Dart and also served by commuter trains?

L1011

markpb wrote: »

Show me a station which is well served by Dart and also served by commuter trains?

Dun Laoghaire? Thats about it, if even, other than city centre and terminals.

Captain Chaos

Teddy455 wrote: »

have they cut back on mk4 services? why?

Not enough demand to justify an hourly Mk4 service anymore. 22k class railcars fill in for off peak low demand capacity Dublin to Cork services.

Better motor way commute times, rising rail fares and downturn of the economy. Same as what is happening the Enterprise services, only a matter of time before 22ks start filling in there too once they are all fitted with NIR radios and signal gear, only the first 6 22k sets are fully fitted out to operate in the North but the systems on them have not been tested and line clearance completed yet.

Captain Chaos

markpb wrote: »

Show me a station which is well served by Dart and also served by commuter trains?

Howth Junction, very well served by DART and most commuter trains. But thats an exception because of the Howth branch line allows for that.

positron

markpb wrote: »

The lack of proper turnback facilities at Malahide mean that if they had more Darts, they'd be blocking both lines on the Northern line every time a Dart terminated there. You might not be stopping at the station but you'd spend a lot of time being stopped either side of it so the impact on NL trains would be the same, if not worse.

Not being cheeky, if it's all about making a service attractive to long distance commuters, Portmarnock and Malahide should wait until they get a turntable put in and then have more DARTs scheduled to serve them, rather than slowing down commuter trains - if you apply one stick to measure everything that is. I don't think this is the right solution, and I do think 1650 Enterprise should call at Drogheda - I am not convinced that will incur losses to IrishRail in anyway.

positron

PS: Another far-fetched, not-ideal, but "debatable-if-Enterprise-won't-serve-Drogheda" option would be to have DARTs terminate at Howth and let Portmarnock and Malahide be served only by commuter trains - may be their numbers will be a reason to bring in more norther commuter services, rather than the current situation where trains crawl behind DARTs, packed full of people who get off at Portmarnock.

LXFlyer

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Not enough demand to justify an hourly Mk4 service anymore. 22k class railcars fill in for off peak low demand capacity Dublin to Cork services.

Better motor way commute times, rising rail fares and downturn of the economy. Same as what is happening the Enterprise services, only a matter of time before 22ks start filling in there too once they are all fitted with NIR radios and signal gear, only the first 6 22k sets are fully fitted out to operate in the North but the systems on them have not been tested and line clearance completed yet.

2 trains are ICR operated in each direction on Dublin/Cork, and one evening service in each direction was cancelled. But you still need the same number of Mark 4 sets (7) as before to operate the entire Dublin/Cork service each day.

The other reason however for the 0800 and 0900 trains from Dublin to Cork and their returns at 1130 and 1230 being ICR operated is that the maintenance of Mark 4 sets is now carried out during the day rather than at night in an effort to cut costs.

markpb

positron wrote: »

Not being cheeky, if it's all about making a service attractive to long distance commuters, Portmarnock and Malahide should wait until they get a turntable put in and then have more DARTs scheduled to serve them

I can't argue with that but I always think that local services should get priority over longer-distance commuter services

positron wrote: »

PS: Another far-fetched, not-ideal, but "debatable-if-Enterprise-won't-serve-Drogheda" option would be to have DARTs terminate at Howth and let Portmarnock and Malahide be served only by commuter trains

That would mean that every time a Dart uses the non-grade separated junction to move from the mainline at HJ&D to the Howth branch (or vice versa), every nearby train on both tracks of the mainline would have to stop. Given the Victorial signalling system that they use, I can only imagine the negative impact it would have.

LXFlyer

Ultimately what is needed is limited stop commuter services to Drogheda and Dundalk, along with a better balance of DART and commuter trains, leaving the particular Enterprise train (1650) to cover north of the border.

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

2 trains are ICR operated in each direction on Dublin/Cork, and one evening service in each direction was cancelled. But you still need the same number of Mark 4 sets (7) as before to operate the entire Dublin/Cork service each day.

In December, a 7 car Mark IV set was introduced into traffic consisting of the spare units that are generally unused. As little as one 22000 set a day works the Dublin-Cork nowadays as a result, depending on general availability of same. Some of the off peak Cork-Dublin's are covered by the Tralee set which works back to Port Laois for servicing; a Dublin-Cork set then replaces it locally. A 22000 set is held onto in Heuston to cover any routes that may need it at short notice so in theory it can end up anywhere.

For the record, bar a select few sets and the occasional special, the 22000's won't work beyond Dundalk. NIR drivers/guards have not yet been trained to operate them while there isn't enough spare units while there isn't enough sets to cover Belfast services; as it is there is barely enough of them to cover Dundalk services

Losty Dublin

markpb wrote: »

I can't argue with that but I always think that local services should get priority over longer-distance commuter services

They do; that's why it takes over 2 hours to get to and from Belfast

Victor

Losty Dublin wrote: »

In December, a 7 car Mark IV set was introduced into traffic consisting of the spare units that are generally unused.

I think this was only for December, as there were higher passenger loads and increased delays, in part because they had to make make extended bathroom stops as the toilets were freezing over.

Losty Dublin

Victor wrote: »

I think this was only for December, as there were higher passenger loads and increased delays, in part because they had to make make extended bathroom stops as the toilets were freezing over.

It was still in service in mid February.

Hungerford

positron wrote: »

Getting home in 65 minutes or getting home in 35 minutes makes a lot of difference especially when you do it every single working day - I am sure you would be able to appreciate this if you are regular commuter!

Flipping the argument around, Dundalk and Drogheda are important stops for people travelling down to the South by rail. Dundalk has particularly strong links with the north for geographical reasons and Drogheda provides access to the northern part of the Dublin commuter railway network.

If the Enterprise stopped serving those stations, there would be no direct access from Newry, for example, to those areas by rail and the journey times of those customers would increase by 90 minutes to shave a few minutes off the journey time of the Enterprise.

LXFlyer

Hungerford wrote: »

Flipping the argument around, Dundalk and Drogheda are important stops for people travelling down to the South by rail. Dundalk has particularly strong links with the north for geographical reasons and Drogheda provides access to the northern part of the Dublin commuter railway network.

If the Enterprise stopped serving those stations, there would be no direct access from Newry, for example, to those areas by rail and the journey times of those customers would increase by 90 minutes to shave a few minutes off the journey time of the Enterprise.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that all the Enterprise trains should not serve either Drogheda or Dundalk - I would just say that the two main business trains (the 0800 ex-Belfast and the 1650 ex-Connolly) remain as such and do not change into glorified commuter trains. There is a dire need to get speed back into the equation here.

positron

Hungerford wrote: »

Flipping the argument around, Dundalk and Drogheda are important stops for people travelling down to the South by rail. Dundalk has particularly strong links with the north for geographical reasons and Drogheda provides access to the northern part of the Dublin commuter railway network.

If the Enterprise stopped serving those stations, there would be no direct access from Newry, for example, to those areas by rail and the journey times of those customers would increase by 90 minutes to shave a few minutes off the journey time of the Enterprise.

Absolutely. I was just emphasing the difference the 16:50 service would make to the life of a Drogheda commuter - Enterprise gets there in 35 mins where as normal commuter trains takes 65 minutes (and usually more, thanks to DART clockfacing, new stops - it's not all because bridge maintenance before someone brings that up - This service used to take 10 mins less a few years ago).

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting that all the Enterprise trains should not serve either Drogheda or Dundalk - I would just say that the two main business trains (the 0800 ex-Belfast and the 1650 ex-Connolly) remain as such and do not change into glorified commuter trains. There is a dire need to get speed back into the equation here.

lxflyer, can I ask are you a regular commuter on the Enterprise? Please don't take this the wrong way, I am just trying to understand if you are speaking because you fear few added minutes to your daily commute, or have expertise on Irishrail operations, or are you just expressing your opinion of how you would like it to be, with nothing to gain or lose (aka just a habitual naysayer). Thanks.

kingshankly

having the 16:50 call at Drogheda would cause mayhem the train is already packed so you want to add a further 100-150 that would get the 16:51 plus people wouldn't rush for the 16:22 if they can get a 16:50 which arrives a couple of minutes later.

DWCommuter

The Celtic Tiger property bonanza brought us here. Getting out of it will cost us. Parts of our rail network are simply bonkers in terms of Intercity and commuter services. We can tweak it all we like, but existing infrastructure can only be stretched so far.

I remember when some Enterprise services stopped in Skerries!:eek: And the timings were similar to today.:eek:

positron

kingshankly wrote: »

having the 16:50 call at Drogheda would cause mayhem the train is already packed

Is it really? When you say packed do you mean no free seats, or is there no space to stand?

kingshankly wrote: »

rush for the 16:22 if they can get a 16:50 which arrives a couple of minutes later.

I don't think this is a concern. If there's no demand for 16:22, they can alter that service. Benefit here is someone who want to return to Dublin around 16:45-17:00 hrs will have a choice to get to Drogheda in 35 mins instead of spending 35 mins in a northern commuter train packed like sardines and then spend another 30 mins trundling along at snails pace. In fairness, the 17:21 service (time at Connolly) does not stop at Portmarnock, but it's packed nonetheless.

Losty Dublin

positron wrote: »

Is it really? When you say packed do you mean no free seats, or is there no space to stand?



I don't think this is a concern. If there's no demand for 16:22, they can alter that service. Benefit here is someone who want to return to Dublin around 16:45-17:00 hrs will have a choice to get to Drogheda in 35 mins instead of spending 35 mins in a northern commuter train packed like sardines and then spend another 30 mins trundling along at snails pace. In fairness, the 17:21 service (time at Connolly) does not stop at Portmarnock, but it's packed nonetheless.

Nobody is doubting that you'd want to get home quicker (I would as well) but the flip side here is that allowing Drogheda passengers onto this train takes away huge capacity from those going to Dundalk, Newry, Portadown and Belfast. Given that there is a train to get them there (Albeit slower) that leaves at the same time and bearing in mind that both sets of passengers need to be catered for, do you push loads off the mainline train when an empty train follows it; how you suggest you look after them?

shamwari

positron wrote: »

Is it really? When you say packed do you mean no free seats, or is there no space to stand?



I don't think this is a concern. If there's no demand for 16:22, they can alter that service. Benefit here is someone who want to return to Dublin around 16:45-17:00 hrs will have a choice to get to Drogheda in 35 mins instead of spending 35 mins in a northern commuter train packed like sardines and then spend another 30 mins trundling along at snails pace. In fairness, the 17:21 service (time at Connolly) does not stop at Portmarnock, but it's packed nonetheless.

I think the bottom line is this: Why should IE / Translink halt an already heavily loaded cross-border service which is carrying most of it's PAX north of the border to serve Drogheda, which in itself is already adequately served by existing services?? In doing this, they run the real risk of seriously discomoding NI passengers and denying them the opportunity to travel, with no alternative train for over two hours.

OP: Drogheda has plenty of trains and bus alternatives. What more do you want?

positron

Sure, if 1650 is arleady packed like the commuter trains, it makes no sense to open it to Drogheda commuters. If it's just mildly full, I suppose I am finding it hard to understand that as 'packed' as in commtuerland packed really means packed like sardines or standing like you are playing twister.

I am sure Drogheda is well served by a lot of trains throughout the day - if you take the quantity of the serivce. Quality of the service is entirely different matter - 65 minutes to get 30 miles by train - am I the only one who thinks it's a bit odd? Then again looks like I am expecting value for money, which seems a bit of an exception and raises eyebrows!