Enterprise Service and Drogheda

positron

Quick question. Does anyone know the reason why the 1650 pm Dublin-Belfast Enterprise Serivce is not serving Drogheda?

It would be very useful for a lot of us Drogheda commuters if it would, and it will take some load of the 5:00 - 5:30 peak time services, especially since they now stop at Portmarnock.

Thanks!

Cookie_Monster

I think the answer is in your question, they don't want commuters on it.

positron

Surely there's a sensible reason for the way it is rather that just someone 'not want'-ing it?

I don' think commuters are crowding the trains and costing IrishRail/NorthernRail money by not letting other passengers into the trains! Also the normal infrequent passegers has the facility to reserve seats on Enterprise service, which is somethig commuters can't do as far as I am aware - so again, is there a good reason why they don't serve Drogheda?

If there isn't - I would be very happy to contribute time and money towards a compaign to get get that service to call Drogheda.

Cookie_Monster

positron wrote: »

Surely there's a sensible reason for the way it is rather that just someone 'not want'-ing it?

This is Irish Rail we are talking about so while my answer is only a guess I'd still be fairly confident its right.

You just have to look at how they operated the Waterford Rosslare branch to see the kind of nonesense they operate

Transportuser09

I would say it might be to avoid overcrowding on this service on Friday evenings, probably to ensure Newry/Portadown/Belfast passengers are catered for, who obviously otherwise would have to wait a considerable time for the next service. Thats a guess, I dont know how big the "work/study in Dublin, come home at the weekend" market is in the North though.

positron

1650 service never calls Drogheda, not just Fridays. The 1520 service is the one that doesn't call Drogheda on Fridays, which is also mad I think.

I really would like to know if there's a real good reason for the practice, or if they are just blindly continuing on some old practice, which probably was introduced for a reason, but now outdated. I think I will call into Connolly personally and see how busy these services really are. This sort of waste has to end, and we need to stand up and demand value for money - I for one am a bit tired of being walked all over by horribly inefficient people.

LXFlyer

You've just been told why - it is to protect longer distance travellers (i.e. Dundalk northward) who have a much smaller choice of services and ensure that they can travel on the train.

If you were to open that train to Drogheda users it would become jammed and other longer distance passengers might be denied a seat.

shamwari

lxflyer wrote: »

You've just been told why - it is to protect longer distance travellers (i.e. Dundalk northward) who have a much smaller choice of services and ensure that they can travel on the train.

If you were to open that train to Drogheda users it would become jammed and other longer distance passengers might be denied a seat.

This is correct. In fact, it wasnt' too long ago that the 16:50 service ran non-stop from Connolly to Newry. It was when numbers fell sufficiently that it called at Dundalk.

It's a pity they never got around to running the Mk3's to provide an hourly service to Belfast.

positron

Thanks lxflyer, I did read the comments for myself, now I am wondering if this is just an opinion, or do you know if this is the fact that the official decision was based on?

Again, is the 1650 service everday, and 1520 on Fridays in so much more demand than say 1320 or 1900 services, and if so, does Drogheda commuters really pack the train if allowed in - after all, non-commuters do have the option to reserve seats on all of these services - not sure how commuters could deny them a seat..!!

positron

shamwari wrote: »

This is correct. In fact, it wasnt' too long ago that the 16:50 service ran non-stop from Connolly to Newry. It was when numbers fell sufficiently that it called at Dundalk.

Thanks, Would you know when that was that change made? May be there is a case to call into Drogheda now as the commuter numbers have fallen a lot since 2007.

LXFlyer

positron wrote: »

Thanks lxflyer, I did read the comments for myself, now I am wondering if this is just an opinion, or do you know if this is the fact that the official decision was based on?

Again, is the 1650 service everday, and 1520 on Fridays in so much more demand than say 1320 or 1900 services, and if so, does Drogheda commuters really pack the train if allowed in - after all, non-commuters do have the option to reserve seats on all of these services - not sure how commuters could deny them a seat..!!

I wasn't trying to be smart Positron. It is the legitimate reason. It is fairly standard practice among rail operators. In an ideal world the key business train on other Intercity routes would operate in a similar fashion, e.g. first stop on 1700 Dublin-Cork would be Mallow, 1630 Dublin-Galway would be Athlone etc. in order to offer an attractive product to longer distance travellers - i.e. faster and not overcrowded.

In your comments, you are forgetting about "walk-on" Intercity customers who do not reserve seats? These are still the majority of Intercity customers, who buy tickets at the station and do not reserve seats online.

At the end of the day that service is primarily for customers from Dundalk north who have no alternatives, unlike Drogheda customers. Stopping it at Drogheda slows down the service even more which continues the decline of the Enterprise product.

penexpers

positron wrote: »

Again, is the 1650 service everday, and 1520 on Fridays in so much more demand than say 1320 or 1900 services, and if so, does Drogheda commuters really pack the train if allowed in - after all, non-commuters do have the option to reserve seats on all of these services - not sure how commuters could deny them a seat..!!

Commuters can also reserve a seat (for a fee).

positron

Fair point.

But as a 'for profit' setup, I wonder if it would not be in their interest to let the 1650 stop at Drogheda. II am baised and would like to think the answer is yes, and now I am trying to find reasons to prove this is the case.

IMO, walk-in passengers are captured business - they don't know (or wanted to know) if the train would be busy or not, and again, depedning on the latest figures, they probably would get a seat anyway. May be IrishRail can also offer a seat reservation service for those who buy tickets on the day / counter? Anyway, protecting seats for them shouldn't be that difficult really. I also don't think stopping at Drogheda vastly reduces the quality of service. I am sure this is doable if there's demand for it and if key stakeholders (Drogheda commuters) puts their feet down. On the other hand, Enterprise services are a major draw for commuters from Drogheda to use the public transport - which is win-win for everyone, which ever way you look at it.

positron

penexpers wrote: »

Commuters can also reserve a seat (for a fee).

Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks. I suppose it's only fair if they are willing to pay a fee for the privildege.

LXFlyer

positron wrote: »

Fair point.

But as a 'for profit' setup, I wonder if it would not be in their interest to let the 1650 stop at Drogheda. II am baised and would like to think the answer is yes, and now I am trying to find reasons to prove this is the case.

IMO, walk-in passengers are captured business - they don't know (or wanted to know) if the train would be busy or not, and again, depedning on the latest figures, they probably would get a seat anyway. May be IrishRail can also offer a seat reservation service for those who buy tickets on the day / counter? Anyway, protecting seats for them shouldn't be that difficult really. I also don't think stopping at Drogheda vastly reduces the quality of service. I am sure this is doable if there's demand for it and if key stakeholders (Drogheda commuters) puts their feet down. On the other hand, Enterprise services are a major draw for commuters from Drogheda to use the public transport - which is win-win for everyone, which ever way you look at it.

And what about Belfast customers for whom the journey slows down another 3 minutes because of the extra stop?

The 1650 is the key northbound Intercity service to stations north of the border (similar to the 0800 ex-Belfast southbound) - turning it into a glorified commuter train just totally dilutes any notion that is an Intercity product.

I'm not having a go at you per se, but you've got to look at what it is supposed to be.

What you're looking for is like having the 1700 Dublin-Cork calling at Portarlington and Portlaoise.

positron

lxflyer wrote: »

And what about Belfast customers for whom the journey slows down another 3 minutes because of the extra stop?

Didn't think this was unacceptable by Irish rail standards - My personal experience is that of Drogheda-Dublin commuter service has two new stops and take 5-10 minutes more than it used to take 5 years ago. Adding 3 minutes to an other 2 hours or so trip wouldn't be that dramatic - but - may be there is also room in these two hours where they can catch up on this time?

LXFlyer

positron wrote: »

Didn't think this was unacceptable by Irish rail standards - My personal experience is that of Drogheda-Dublin commuter service has two new stops and take 5-10 minutes more than it used to take 5 years ago. Adding 3 minutes to an other 2 hours or so trip wouldn't be that dramatic - but - may be there is also room in these two hours where they can catch up on this time?

The point is that the Enterprise is getting slower and slower and if you introduce more stops on the key business trains you are reducing the attractiveness of it as a long distance product, which is its primary function.

For the Enterprise to have any long-term relevance it needs to be getting faster not slower.

nc6000

It would also help if it turned up when scheduled. In Drogheda waiting for the Enterprise to Connolly due at 17.41 and was directed to board a Commuter on Platform 2 due to leave at 17.48.

Enterprise broke down in Belfast but this didn't stop the 'Realtime info' on www.dart.ie showing it as due in 2 mins when I checked at 17.39.

Not very 'Realtime' at all.

nc6000

Should have included I'm guessing there probably won't be a 19.00 Enterprise leaving Connolly later.

LXFlyer

nc6000 wrote: »

It would also help if it turned up when scheduled. In Drogheda waiting for the Enterprise to Connolly due at 17.41 and was directed to board a Commuter on Platform 2 due to leave at 17.48.

Enterprise broke down in Belfast but this didn't stop the 'Realtime info' on www.dart.ie showing it as due in 2 mins when I checked at 17.39.

Not very 'Realtime' at all.

The real time facility does not extend north of Drogheda. therefore any trains coming from north of Drogheda will only show the scheduled time. There is a disclaimer on the IE website to that effect:

Our central signalling system is subject to ongoing work to support this real-time facility. However real-time information has weaker coverage in certain areas, these include:• Hazelhatch - Heuston Line• Athlone - Westport/Ballina Line• Cork Station• Cork - Cobh/Midleton Line• Mallow - Tralee Line• Ballybrophy - Limerick Line• Limerick - Ennis Line• Athy - Waterford Line• Limerick Junction - Waterford Line• Greystones - Rosslare Line• Drogheda - Belfast Line• Drumcondra - Sligo Line
In these cases your query will return the scheduled time only

nc6000

Fair enough. I didn't see the disclaimer.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

The point is that the Enterprise is getting slower and slower and if you introduce more stops on the key business trains you are reducing the attractiveness of it as a long distance product, which is its primary function.

For the Enterprise to have any long-term relevance it needs to be getting faster not slower.

Agree 100% Lxflyer.

Having travelled to Belfast on the Enterprise last week I found the experience generally relaxing and certainly marketable...BUT only as a stand-alone Belfast-Dublin express service.

At this point in time the fixation which CIE Road and Rail companies have with constantly meddling with an Express/Expresso concept and eventually ending up with a bog standard "Serving All-Points" service is bizzarre.

The 84X Xpresso Bus Route is a case in point on the Road Passenger side,having had more and more stops added at the whim of individuals which in-turn has diluted the concept to the point of it being just an 84......:eek:

Dublin Bus should easily be able to market a 1 hr end-to end journey time from Kilcoole to An Lar so as to fill the Bus by the Southern Cross and then ZOoooom non-stop to UCD Belfield.-St Stephens Green and An Lar.

Thats what the damn X in 84X is supposed to mean...Doh !!!! :cool:

dowlingm

I wonder how many board at Drogheda heading north? Bypassing Drogheda won't do much good if you lose uplift. In any case there won't be much done until the following happens:

1. Some form of agreement is achieved where IE can deploy the NIR spec 3 car 22Ks on infill services to bring Dublin-Belfast nearer hourly clockface, with the De Dietrichs primarily used on services with the most First revenue.
2. There is a commitment from the various gangs of thugs along the line north of the board to lay off the disruption of the past.
3. NIR fix their track (unlikely in the near future since they just cancelled the fixing of some speed restrictions)

Victor

AFAIK the Drogheda restriction was because of Enterprise being flooded by commuters. If I remember correctly, it started with boarding passes (in addition to tickets) being required on the 1650 services.

Reservations on Entreprise are restricted to a single carriage each of first and standard.

shamwari

penexpers wrote: »

Commuters can also reserve a seat (for a fee).

Not a practical option if you are using any kind of annual travel / monthly ticket I'm afraid!

foggy_lad

positron wrote: »

Didn't think this was unacceptable by Irish rail standards - My personal experience is that of Drogheda-Dublin commuter service has two new stops and take 5-10 minutes more than it used to take 5 years ago. Adding 3 minutes to an other 2 hours or so trip wouldn't be that dramatic - but - may be there is also room in these two hours where they can catch up on this time?

There are regular and quite fast bus services which might be an aternative to Drogheda or Dundalk?

SeanW

positron wrote: »

IMO, walk-in passengers are captured business

Err ... no they're not! Irish Rail and the Enterprise has stiff competition from the buses and private transport.

they don't know (or wanted to know) if the train would be busy or not

Actually yes, they do want to know, and precedent or word of mouth would tell them very quickly that the service had become a shambolic commuter rat-run. Some long distance passengers would abandon the service forever.

and again, depedning on the latest figures, they probably would get a seat anyway.

International best practice is very clear - long distance services should be designed to meet the needs of long distance passengers.

One example I am quite familiar with is the Metro North Railroad, serving New York City and it's Northern suburbs with commuter services. In recent decades, trains going between Manhattan (Grand Central Terminal) and outposts like Brewster, White Plains and New Haven, Connecticut have started stopping at Fordham (big university there) in the Bronx.
BUT, they only do so with posted Recieve/Drop off restrictions. i.e. trains going into Manhattan stop only to discharge passengers and going out, only to pick them up. GCT-Fordham train tickets are considered invalid for any train making such a restricted stop. Additionally, when a train that will make a pickup stop in Fordham, is waiting in Grand Central, Fordham isn't listed on the destination & station list boards.

The only way what you're proposing would make *any* sense would be if similar restrictions were imposed - i.e. the stop was made ONLY for passengers traveling between Drogheda and points North.

and again, depedning on the latest figures, they probably would get a seat anyway.

If the number of Drogheda commuters has fallen to such a shambolically low level that they would not be able to fill up a low capacity Intercity train in the evening rush, then the current Commuter services should be adequate anyway. If not, then my points above still stand.

Losty Dublin

Victor wrote: »

AFAIK the Drogheda restriction was because of Enterprise being flooded by commuters. If I remember correctly, it started with boarding passes (in addition to tickets) being required on the 1650 services.

The current timetable has a Pearse-Dundalk local train leaving Connolly at 16:51 so there isn't any major need for the Enterprise to stop at Drogheda en route given that they already have a service to get them home.

Victor

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The current timetable has a Pearse-Dundalk local train leaving Connolly at 16:51 so there isn't any major need for the Enterprise to stop at Drogheda en route given that they already have a service to get them home.

Yeah, I spotted that afterwards. It might be useful to also have a Dublin-Dundalk stopping service that arrives in Dundalk a little before the Enterprise.

lucernarian

Just to clarify, I understand that the 1520 enterprise now stops in Drogheda again on Fridays.

positron

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Just to clarify, I understand that the 1520 enterprise now stops in Drogheda again on Fridays.

Thanks TBC, this is very good news! Double checked the IrishRail.ie schedule search and it's coming up now. Very good indeed!

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The current timetable has a Pearse-Dundalk local train leaving Connolly at 16:51 so there isn't any major need for the Enterprise to stop at Drogheda en route given that they already have a service to get them home.

Getting home in 65 minutes or getting home in 35 minutes makes a lot of difference especially when you do it every single working day - I am sure you would be able to appreciate this if you are regular commuter!

SeanW wrote: »

International best practice is very clear - long distance services should be designed to meet the needs of long distance passengers.

I understand what you are saying and agree in principle, however, here we are not talking about changing a 2 stop Express service to 21 stop commuter train. I am not even asking for a 5% change to schedule. All I am asking is to remove an anomaly to the schedule - so that the train services it's stations consistantly. From a Belfast-Dublin passenger point of view, they already expect the train to stop at many stations including Drogheda as the train does at all it's services except the 16:50 service. Comparing this to degrading an express service to commuter services is not really fair comparison now, is it?

SeanW wrote: »

If the number of Drogheda commuters has fallen to such a shambolically low level that they would not be able to fill up a low capacity Intercity train in the evening rush, then the current Commuter services should be adequate anyway. If not, then my points above still stand.

Yes and no. Counter question i have is - the Drogheda trains now call into Portmarnock and Malahide, which are adequately serviced by DARTs. This has not only added a few minutes to Northern Commuter routes, this also means the trains are packed full with Portmarnock-ians when it leaves Dublin. Long distance commuters heading to Drogheda/Dundalk suffer just what you trying to protect Enterprise commuters from. Hardly fair to squeeze Drogheda commuters by stopping at ordinary Dart stations (I don't mind if they decide to stop at Howth - it's a junction after all) and yet not allow Drogheda commuters to Enterprise despite the fact that Drogheda is indeed a very long way away in a different county etc. It's just not fair IMHO.

Victor wrote: »

AFAIK the Drogheda restriction was because of Enterprise being flooded by commuters. If I remember correctly, it started with boarding passes (in addition to tickets) being required on the 1650 services.

Reservations on Entreprise are restricted to a single carriage each of first and standard.

I think there's more than one standard carriage that is marked for reservation these days - but I could be wrong, but in anycase, very few reserve ahead from what I have noticed on the 1900 hrs service.

lxflyer wrote: »

The point is that the Enterprise is getting slower and slower and if you introduce more stops on the key business trains you are reducing the attractiveness of it as a long distance product, which is its primary function.

For the Enterprise to have any long-term relevance it needs to be getting faster not slower.

I have replied to this in part above. Two more points - One, Drogheda is long distance, and if you disagree, please try commuting there for a while. Two, Drogheda is a normal enterprise stop at all Enterprise service, and hence an expected stop, and shouldn't really effect the overall schedule. 1650 not stopping there has nothing to do with the 'expressness' of the service and it's purely to avoid commuters from everything I have read so far, and that's the craziest double-standard of the highest order, if you think about it.

I am sure there are a dozen other ways to protect non-commuters of that service if you really care - but not letting commuters onto the train, which could save Droghda commuters 30 mins everyday, and this could also help reduce the peak-time sardinefest of the northern commuter trains - I still fail to see logic in what they are doing, apologies to everyone who thinks otherwise.