Test cricket

BOHtox

Is there any criteria for gaining test status?

Ireland should be given test status in my opinion. We have two really good cricket grounds, we produce really good players who want to play test cricket and we end up losing them to England. We beat many test teams like England, Pakistan and Bagnledesh.

Discuss

TheRevolution

I don't see what exactly is the problem. Ireland have beaten England and Pakistan in recent world cups and beaten Bangladesh as well. Ireland qualified for the last 8 in the 2007 world cup and we have lost our best internationals solely because they can't play test cricket with Ireland. The Irish cricket team has shown repeatedly that it has the potential to beat the very best on the biggest stage. Its not like Ireland are a team who get routinely well beaten by everyone and progress looks bleak, this is a team that has beaten the best teams in the world. With test status Ireland could improve further and retain their best players. What are the ICC scared of?

mike65

What are they scared of? Sharing the spoils out between more nations probably.

Anyway for Ireland test status is a total non starter right now. The first step should be to get more one day recognition and even thats tricky - can anyone imagine a one day series being played in Ireland against any current test side? The finances wouldn't stack up. The best that could be hoped for is a couple of games tacked onto the end/start of the summer in England and even then the logistics could be difficult.

KevIRL

Not likely to happen anytime soon. We dont have the domestic 1st class game to support it for one thing. Bangladesh's lack of success at test level has shown just how hard the step up would be.

Ireland are gonna have their work cut out getting the ICC to give them a chance at playing in the next World Cup, never mind test status.

We should be given some sort of long term ODI status and more importantly included in the regular tours that happen, being the 3rd team in the trigangular series that happen after the test series for example

Pal

I believe India and Pakistan call the shots.
So no time soon.

Pauleta

Cmon lads there is not a hope we are test team material. We would be hammered every time bar a once in a blue moon result against Bangladesh maybe. If we played England in a test match today on that pitch, England would of batted all day and well into tomorrow. Probably racking up a score of 600+. The only reason we competed today was that we had nothing to lose at 111/5. The team would of played more conservatively and would of been lucky to get to 111/5.

thebaz

firstly - brilliant Ireland today - what a team

I read somewhere that dockrell , is the next player considering switching sides - perhaps , if the sports loving Denis o'Brien , invested more dosh , we may be able to keep our best - as it looks like test status is a non runner .. God forbid the English powers might be sniffing out the O'Briens

Please Denis :-)

dfx-

Test standard is another level entirely to beating teams in one-day games.

Teams bat as long as they like at their own pace. So two days, and three days or 270 overs to bowl you out twice which is over 5 one-day innings. That's with no fielding restrictions, no bowling restrictions, practically no wides, no free balls, no Powerplays, KOB's batting today would be suicidal in 99% of Tests. It's the ultimate test. Before you get into the BCCI controlling things saying no.

But I would say we could compete with New Zealand, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and maybe the West Indies eventually. In terms of progress, there's not much else to aim higher for

Pauleta

thebaz wrote: »

firstly - brilliant Ireland today - what a team

I read somewhere that dockrell , is the next player considering switching sides - perhaps , if the sports loving Denis o'Brien , invested more dosh , we may be able to keep our best - as it looks like test status is a non runner .. God forbid the English powers might be sniffing out the O'Briens

Please Denis :-)

This is where i feel the IPL comes in. If our players start getting IPL deals then there wouldnt be much need to play for England. A lot of our lads are playing county cricket, which is grand but you aint gonna retire on county cricket money. A few years in the IPL and you are sorted for life. I would be surprised if IPL teams are not looking into Kev O'Brien after today and Niall O'Brien would be an asset to any team not containing the likes of Mehendra Singh Dhoni and Sangakkara.

rockbeer

Calling for Ireland to have test status actually shows why it shouldn't happen - if you can't even grasp the world of difference between a 50 over bash and the five day game you aren't ready for it! Not yet anyway.

Best idea I've heard is a two-division test system with promotion and relegation. That might help sort a few things out and it would help make the step us less impossible. Not sure the other test sides would go for it though.

In the meantime, as others have said, Ireland needs to embrace the longer game domestically before it can hope to make it at test level. As things stand there isn't even remotely enough strength in depth to support a test squad.

kryogen

No way we are ready for test status at the moment, and imo we wont be for a long time yet.

We would not be able to compete yet, and it could hinder more then help if given anytime soon, luckily it wont happen anyway

riffmongous

rockbeer wrote: »

As things stand there isn't even remotely enough strength in depth to support a test squad.

This is very important. Another huge problem we have is that we lack one genuine fast bowler, never mind a pack. This is a big problem in modern test cricket that has really held back Bangladesh, New Zealand and the West Indies.

We have been getting some good exposure to the longer game with the IC cup for the last few years, where Ireland have been pretty dominant. We need a step up in competition now though, one possibility would be to play other countries 'A' sides but I don't think we would get enough games that way. The best thing for Ireland I think would be to play in the English County Championship. You get a good, regular supply of 4 day games against good quality opposition.

d'Oracle

riffmongous wrote: »

This is very important. Another huge problem we have is that we lack one genuine fast bowler, never mind a pack. This is a big problem in modern test cricket that has really held back Bangladesh, New Zealand and the West Indies.

What a fast bowler?

NZ had one but in fairness they got buggered out of him by BCCI.
Windies always have one or two, Fidel is as fast as they come really he is just hurt.

Also, who does have a genuine quick these days?
SA, thats all really, unless I'm missing someone.

thebaz

would Zimbabwe hammer us at test cricket ? - certainly they would be stronger - but not by much - in time i would expect Bangladesh to equal and surpass W Indies and NZ - out of curiosity , if Wales had an international team , how would they do against us at the moment ? - we certainly seam to be the strongest non playing test nation at the moment, and getting stronger

D3PO

thebaz wrote: »

, if Wales had an international team , how would they do against us at the moment ? -

they do. They go by the name England. ( The ECB is actualyl the England & Wales cricket board)

So going by yesterday they would lose to us

D3PO

The posts about us being hammered in a test scenario so we shouldnt be a test team really isn't a genuine argument against us getting test status. History suggests that all new test teams struggle.

India didnt win a test match outside India for near on 50 years and the wins at "home" were against second string test teams.

Bangladesh have struggled as did New Zealand as did Sri Lanka & Zimbabwe. So lets put that one to bed firstly.

The cavet being that there is a clear path that would suggest improvement over time. Now that path ultimatly means having a First Class setup, and increased playing numbers with better facilities to players/

How these should manifest ithemselves its a different discussion.

We have taken some of the right steps, having now begun the process of centrally contracting some players, showing the ICC that there is an appetitie to progress the level of the sport in the country with the addition of a new stadium.

But there is a long way to go, realistically with all the will in the world Cricket Ireland, the Irish sports council and RSA, can only do so much to move things forward, there is a genuine requirment for the ICC to help by putting their hand in their pocket to facilitate the requirments of moving Ireland or anybody else for that matter from associate to full member.

And that unfortunatly is where talk of Ireland becoming a test team falls flat on its arse. There is no appetite in the ICC to share the ICC's wealth with another nation that brings nothing to the table in terms of revenue, there is no way to have a 100% professional setup in this country as we are too small a nation to handle having a professional sports setup (rugby aside) and there is no way without an Asian side being made a full member that the ICC would allow a shift of power to the "western" nations which making Ireland a full member would threaten.

Unfortunatly you dont always get what you deserve in this life and despite Irelands performances on and off the pitch probably making them deserving test member candiates it aint gonna happen.

riffmongous

d'Oracle wrote: »

What a fast bowler?

NZ had one but in fairness they got buggered out of him by BCCI.
Windies always have one or two, Fidel is as fast as they come really he is just hurt.

Also, who does have a genuine quick these days?
SA, thats all really, unless I'm missing someone.

Fair enough I should have extended that to fast-medium, 88+mph. Pakistan have a good fast attack, and Australia have some naturally talented quicks who haven't been great lately. WI have had a few quick bowlers in the last few years but none of them were any good, until Roach, he looks genuine quality.

At the moment Boyd and our bunch of medium pacers can do the job at ODI level where the opponent has to push the pace but at test level you'd be lucky to take more than 3 wickets an innings.And if the wicket doesn't spin we will never be able to bowl out a side.

rockbeer

D3PO wrote: »

History suggests that all new test teams struggle.

Indeed. And that's even when they have had advantages like a well-established domestic first-class structure, widespread popular support and a long-standing tradition for the game. Ireland has none of these. Just to give an idea of the weakness of the game in Ireland, I've played and succeeded in the third tier of Irish cricket. In England that would be the equivalent of strong league standard. Test players often play in the English leagues - and in England I'd barely scrape into an ordinary pub team. Ireland doesn't even have pub teams. It needs to develop the game domestically before starting to dream about test status, and people need to let go of the delusional idea that a couple of decent one-day wins in world cup group matches somehow equips a side for test cricket. The win against England was fantastic, but in terms of test cricket it's utterly meaningless. That notion only shows how little people grasp the gulf in class between the two formats.

What you also have to bear in mind is that the overall standing of test cricket is compromised when sub-standard sides play. This has been a concern with Bangladesh - having lots of ordinary players with falsely inflated averages because of easy runs and wickets against canon fodder bowling and hapless batsmen eventually starts to devalue the game. That's why a two-tier test structure could work, by creating a stepping stone to the top level.

The shorter the game the more the difference in quality between two sides is evened out. That's why all sorts of odd things can happen in twenty20 - like England winning a world cup! A limited overs game can easily swing on a single outlandish performance. That does happen in tests, but rarely. Over five days the better team almost always wins, and that's not always the team with the best individual performance.

I hate to say it but Ireland would be routinely humiliated at test level right now. It must earn the right to play at that level, and it can't do that by playing limited overs cricket.

booth70

Pal wrote: »

I believe India and Pakistan call the shots.
So no time soon.

Ahem....India call the shots....Pakistan and the rest just listen

Considering both SL and Bangladesh had achieved feck all at the international level when they were granted test status I think Test recognition for Ireland will not be too far away....

D3PO

rockbeer wrote: »

Indeed. And that's even when they have had advantages like a well-established domestic first-class structure, widespread popular support and a long-standing tradition for the game. Ireland has none of these. Just to give an idea of the weakness of the game in Ireland, I've played and succeeded in the third tier of Irish cricket. In England that would be the equivalent of strong league standard. Test players often play in the English leagues - and in England I'd barely scrape into an ordinary pub team. Ireland doesn't even have pub teams. It needs to develop the game domestically before starting to dream about test status, and people need to let go of the delusional idea that a couple of decent one-day wins in world cup group matches somehow equips a side for test cricket. The win against England was fantastic, but in terms of test cricket it's utterly meaningless. That notion only shows how little people grasp the gulf in class between the two formats.

What you also have to bear in mind is that the overall standing of test cricket is compromised when sub-standard sides play. This has been a concern with Bangladesh - having lots of ordinary players with falsely inflated averages because of easy runs and wickets against canon fodder bowling and hapless batsmen eventually starts to devalue the game. That's why a two-tier test structure could work, by creating a stepping stone to the top level.

The shorter the game the more the difference in quality between two sides is evened out. That's why all sorts of odd things can happen in twenty20 - like England winning a world cup! A limited overs game can easily swing on a single outlandish performance. That does happen in tests, but rarely. Over five days the better team almost always wins, and that's not always the team with the best individual performance.

I hate to say it but Ireland would be routinely humiliated at test level right now. It must earn the right to play at that level, and it can't do that by playing limited overs cricket.

dont preach to me like I suggested we should be a test side. read my full post and dont just quote one line to suit yourself

d'Oracle

Another piece here is we need more kids playing the game.

Can't build a 1st class structure without young talent.
Actually, young **** is also, can't have the good without the average and the dedicated awful.

rockbeer

D3PO wrote: »

dont preach to me like I suggested we should be a test side. read my full post and dont just quote one line to suit yourself

I'll say what I like.

I've read your entire post and as far as I can see it's a rejection of the argument that quality is a relevant issue in the test arena (I've tried to indicate why you're wrong about this), followed by a long-winded justification for the untenable notion that ICC money could change the standing of the game in Ireland enough to justify test status. It might do in the long run, but I'm just trying to point out there are real reasons why the game will probably never be popular enough in Ireland for this to happen.

Not meaning to preach, but I'm entitled to an opinion just the same as anyone else.

D3PO

rockbeer wrote: »

I'll say what I like.

I've read your entire post and as far as I can see it's a rejection of the argument that quality is a relevant issue in the test arena (I've tried to indicate why you're wrong about this), followed by a long-winded justification for the untenable notion that ICC money could change the standing of the game in Ireland enough to justify test status. It might do in the long run, but I'm just trying to point out there are real reasons why the game will probably never be popular enough in Ireland for this to happen.

Not meaning to preach, but I'm entitled to an opinion just the same as anyone else.

Yes your entitled to your opinion and I have no issue with that. I just dont like people taking one line out of a post and taking it out of context.

Back on topic. I do reject the argument that the quality of the current side should have a significant bearing on test status.

I reject this on the basis of history in not only cricket, but other sports where enevitibly new sides struggle at an enhanced level. You cannot argue that Ireland should not be a test side becasue they are not good enough but on the other hand accept that this didnt matter for Bangladesh, India, New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe & the West Indies when they were made test playing nations.

That aside there are many compelling reasons right now and some not so fair or compelling reasons as to why Ireland should not be a test team currently.

Realistically Ireland will never be made a test team, thats just how it is.

d'Oracle

The more I think about it the less I'm inclined to disagree.

On the 1st class thing alone, I don't believe it can happen.
I just can't see a culture of cricket developing that far.

D3PO

d'Oracle wrote: »

The more I think about it the less I'm inclined to disagree.

On the 1st class thing alone, I don't believe it can happen.
I just can't see a culture of cricket developing that far.

Its dont believe it is to do with the culture of cricket its far more simplistic than that.

We are a TINY nation. We cannot support professional sports in this country.

If we couldnt have professional soccer teams how on earth do we expect to have professional cricket teams ?

The only reason rugby works here is because of the revenue fromt he Heino Cup. Remove that it also goes back to amatuer.

Thats before we even consider that first class cricket is invariable loss making even in England and only survives based on sponsorship, ECB & ICC money and the money made in one day competitions.

Ireland cannot and will not ever have the ability to have first class cricket its a fact of life. The best we can hope for is the ECB allowing us enter Ireland as a county side, but then again why would they they ahve nothing to gain out of it.

d'Oracle

D3PO wrote: »

Its dont believe it is to do with the culture of cricket its far more simplistic than that.

We are a TINY nation. We cannot support professional sports in this country.

If we couldnt have professional soccer teams how on earth do we expect to have professional cricket teams ?

The only reason rugby works here is because of the revenue fromt he Heino Cup. Remove that it also goes back to amatuer.

Thats before we even consider that first class cricket is invariable loss making even in England and only survives based on sponsorship, ECB & ICC money and the money made in one day competitions.

Ireland cannot and will not ever have the ability to have first class cricket its a fact of life. The best we can hope for is the ECB allowing us enter Ireland as a county side, but then again why would they they ahve nothing to gain out of it.

See the thing is, that would be true, but NZ with a very similar population possibly even smaller support a first class network. So its not because we are tiny.

You are also oversimplifying the rugby thing.
It is a MUCH bigger sport in terms of numbers and culture.
If Cricket had the penetration of even the Club game in rugby, they would be doing very well indeed.

Us being a county side would be an entirely retrograde step.

What I'd like to see is First Class 4 day matches being played against touring sides who come to England. Instead of playing England Lions or some county side, host a few touring test sides in Clontarf or stormont for a few days.

Not just ODI's, at least then Ireland would have some constructive long form cricket to play.
What with the progress already made.

D3PO

well either way I think we need to look at getting on the Future tours program for ODI's first so we can get more exposure to the top players.

thats the first step, if Cricket Ireland are right and we double playing numbers by 2015 then thats the next positive step.

we can look to build from there. Fact is we need to be on the FTP first.

One measly ODI outside of the world cup this year. How can a team improve by exposing themselves to the best of the best when that is what they get.

Corsendonk

BOHtox wrote: »

Is there any criteria for gaining test status?

Ireland should be given test status in my opinion. We have two really good cricket grounds, we produce really good players who want to play test cricket and we end up losing them to England. We beat many test teams like England, Pakistan and Bagnledesh.

Discuss

Gate receipts and TV audience, I think China has a better chance of test Status than us. ICC would love to have a foothold there. England struggles with gate receipts from some of the smaller Test playing Nations tours of England, Ireland would have a good travelling support in England but would they have the same travelling support as England in the Indian subcontinent?

Strength in depth of players isnt there yet, the cricket structure here below Ireland level needs to be stronger, perhaps like how the provinces feed into the Irish Rugby team. Very much along the lines of the Australian state system but you would need to move players around to have competitive teams and a semi pro structure at least. Substantial capital investment needed to upgrade grounds for spectators and players.

Corsendonk

d'Oracle wrote: »

Us being a county side would be an entirely retrograde step.

Perhaps field an Ireland A side in the county structure or an under 23s?

D3PO

Lets just move to cloud cookoo land for a moment.

Lets assume Cricket Ireland decide to create a first class setup here.

Your looking at what perhaps a provincial setup, so 4 teams, perhaps 6 if you try and create a similar setup to say the Magners league in rugby i.e invite the Scottish and Dutch cricket boards to create 1 team each.

So lets assume 6 teams in a First Class championship.

So lets say you play every team home & away to decide the winners.

Thats 10 games to be played in I guess June, July, August.

Now that in itself is a problem as your looking at conflicts with ICC Intercontenantal cup fixtures.

Games would have to be played probably Mon - Thurs or Tue to Friday to facilitate the countries club one day setups

You cannot have players take 40 days off work without paying them. Where would this money come from ?

Likewise umpires & groundstaff.

Im sure theres many other impediments (not least the quality of player avialable even assuming the allowance of 1-2 overseas players per side). Id love to hear a coherant idea on how we could run and afford a first class setup in this country.

riffmongous

Corsendonk wrote: »

Perhaps field an Ireland A side in the county structure or an under 23s?

Considering how much our main team (minus a few county stars) struggled in the 50 over tournament against the county sides a few years ago I don't think we'd be allowed enter an A team into any competition.

I'd rather see us play regular county cricket than a few one off 4-dayers against weakened test teams who couldn't be a***d being here.