Illumination of Conscience

Keylem

rockbeer wrote: »

Do any of you Christians, when looking into your souls and seeing such unmitigated wretchedness, ever reflect on how much better a job god could have made of designing you, had he so desired?

Just wondering.

God is perfect and He created us in His image and likeness, gave us free will and a set of laws to follow that we may continue to be perfect, and we messed it up!

newmug

RGDATA! wrote: »

Ok, I accept that but faced with a clear, unambiguous demonstration that there is a God and I do have an immortal soul, then to me there would be no choice but to accept this, start to pray and repent for my sins etc. I'm hardly going to use my free will to choose eternity in damnation am I?

Well how many times have clear, unambiguous demonstrations that there is a God and you do have an immortal soul ever happened before? Jesus himself was here, was murdered, and rose from the dead, two more recent examples off the top of my head are Knock and Fatima, witnessed by thousands! WAKE UP!!!

If this happens, maybe you will not see it. There will be people born after it happens who will not see it, there will be there will be people who still explain it away by science (and make no mistake, it WILL be a scientific event, comets crashing into the sun is a big deal, but the fact that this was foretold by a religious vision should wake you up), and there will be people deliberately working for the one with horns saying its nothing to worry about. You still have FREE WILL to purposely choose to apply good in your life for the sake of God. You should be doing that anyway, sign from God or not.

rockbeer

Keylem wrote: »

God is perfect and He created us in His image and likeness, gave us free will and a set of laws to follow that we may continue to be perfect, and we messed it up!

But if we were created 'perfect' we would, by definition, have been unable to 'mess it up'. To mess up is imperfect.

And if we were created in God's image and we messed it up then he too, by definition, is capable of messing it up.

Keylem

rockbeer wrote: »

But if we were created 'perfect' we would, by definition, have been unable to 'mess it up'. To mess up is imperfect.

And if we were created in God's image and we messed it up then he too, by definition, is capable of messing it up.

By your reasoning yes, but God foreknew that we would mess up, but loved us anyway!

rockbeer

Keylem wrote: »

By your reasoning yes, but God foreknew that we would mess up, but loved us anyway!

That's nice... but then we're not really made in his image are we?

Fanny Cradock

Nowhere does it say that we were made perfect.

Keylem

rockbeer wrote: »

That's nice... but then we're not really made in his image are we?

Read on!

http://www.saintpetercatholic.com/QA_image_of_God.htm

Keylem

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Nowhere does it say that we were made perfect.

Adam and Eve were perfect before sin, and Mary the Mother of God is perfect as she was born IMMACULATE!!

In the beginning God made a perfect world, and you would have to assume everything in it was perfect!

Jesus being both God and Man was perfect!

Fanny Cradock

Keylem wrote: »

Adam and Eve were perfect before sin, and Mary the Mother of God is perfect as she was born IMMACULATE!!

In the beginning God made a perfect world, and you would have to assume everything in it was perfect!

Jesus being both God and Man was perfect!

We are just going to have to disagree. Genesis tells us that creation - which included the creation of man - was very good (Hebrew: towb). Hebrew has a number of different words that can be used to convey perfection (e.g. kalal - think Superman's real name) all of which are distinct from the word used in Genesis to describe creation.

As for the immaculate conception, I see no biblical basis for such a belief. But you are welcome to it, nevertheless.

rockbeer

Keylem wrote: »

Read on!

http://www.saintpetercatholic.com/QA_image_of_God.htm

I'm glad that article wasn't any longer. Life's too short

But I did read it all, and it turns out to support my argument.

The second faculty given to us in the Image of God is the will. <snip> Before the Fall, our wills were perfectly free, meaning that we were able to unfailingly choose the best possible good in every situation.

Except that we didn't, did we? So our power to choose good couldn't have been unfailing, could it. Therefore either our flawed will reflects god's flawed will, or our flawed will doesn't reflect god's perfect will.

But I expect you'll have it both ways regardless.

(By the way, how does Mr Arrowood know all this stuff about what god did and what he intended? Is it in the Bible?)

Keylem

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

We are just going to have to disagree. Genesis tells us that creation - which included the creation of man - was very good (Hebrew: towb). Hebrew has a number of different words that can be used to convey perfection (e.g. kalal - think Superman's real name) all of which are distinct from the word used in Genesis to describe creation.

As for the immaculate conception, I see no biblical basis for such a belief. But you are welcome to it, nevertheless.

Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20:30

Over the following centuries much has been revealed through revelation of the Saints and the Mother of Jesus, and are deemed worthy of belief by the C.C. the custodian of fullness of the Truth.

Note that the angels were also created perfect, yet a third of them rejected God in favor of autonomy. It would appear that Free Will is a greater good than sinlessness. The highest goal of Creation is love of God and love of others. This is not possible without Free Will.

Keylem

Matthew 5:48

Douay-Rheims Bible

Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

RGDATA!

newmug wrote: »

Well how many times have clear, unambiguous demonstrations that there is a God and you do have an immortal soul ever happened before?

none IMO, not in my lifetimes

the original post talked about an event where everyone would see the state of their souls etc.

This is a whole lot more concrete than having to believe stories told down generations of a handful of people who think they saw a vision.

Donatello

RGDATA! wrote: »

none IMO, not in my lifetimes

the original post talked about an event where everyone would see the state of their souls etc.

This is a whole lot more concrete than having to believe stories told down generations of a handful of people who think they saw a vision.

The Apostles didn't merely see a vision - they spent time with Jesus - they poked Him after the resurrection and had meals with Him. This man was no mere vision.

Juza1973

Donatello wrote: »

Scary stuff, and reason why good Catholics should not attend Masses said by dissenting priests - not only are you supporting them with your presence, but you may also be partaking of invalid sacraments and sacrilege. It is for this very reason that I stopped confessing to a certain priest. His dissent on various doctrines led me to doubt that he means to do what the Church does in the sacrament of confession. Support holy priests and holy parishes with your presence and your money. Starve dissenters of money and pew-sitters.

To me a Priest will always be considered faithful to the Church unless proven otherwise. I don't mind if he is nasty or doesn't share my ideas, he's my Priest. Of course if he indulges in sacrilege it would be wrong to support him in that. These cases must always be treated with prudence but not to the point of codardice. I will stop support him if he is acting against the Church, not because I don't like him. He does not have to please ME, he has to do his Mission, it is not a service provider (not to me at least) that I can discharge because I feel like so.

Donatello

Juza1973 wrote: »

To me a Priest will always be considered faithful to the Church unless proven otherwise. I don't mind if he is nasty or doesn't share my ideas, he's my Priest. Of course if he indulges in sacrilege it would be wrong to support him in that. These cases must always be treated with prudence but not to the point of codardice. I will stop support him if he is acting against the Church, not because I don't like him. He does not have to please ME, he has to do his Mission, it is not a service provider (not to me at least) that I can discharge because I feel like so.

If a priest teaches contrary to the Magisterium, he is wrong and he endangers souls by infecting them with his errors.

If a priest offers the Mass in a sacrilegious way, he is wrong and he endangers souls.

Some priests are so bad they actually offer invalid Masses by changing the words, although I would think that would be quite rare in Ireland.

You can read about the different kinds of liturgical abuse here.

I agree totally - this is not about the priest's personality - whether we like him or not - it is about his fidelity - does he teach and do what the Church does, or does he do his own thing like a Protestant?

Pope Benedict gave a series of Wednesday audiences on this topic entitled 'On the Priest's Mission'. It outlines all this in a most excellent way.

gimmebroadband

Follow up to OP topic.

There is a seer in Europe receiving messages from Jesus to warn the world with great urgency about the coming 'illumination of all conscience', seemingly it is just months away. Same was predicted at Garabandal, Spain, and Medjugorje. Many more messages on the website.

http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/two-comets-will-collide-my-cross-will-appear-in-a-red-sky/

This site has been set up to publish a series of divine messages received by a married woman and mother of a young family living in Europe who wishes to be known as Maria Devine Mercy (The European Visionary and Seer) since the 9th November 2010.


The messages are still ongoing and, reinforce the Catholic teachings of faith and morals. Maria has been given the support of a number of believers including priests and volunteers from various countries, to enable them to be revealed quickly to the world. They are, she says, being revealed to the world for its own good and that of others.
Whether officially approved by the Church or otherwise, through perchance worthy of pious credence, Catholic individuals are not morally obliged to espouse the messages emanating from any source of private revelation (e.g. apparitions, interior locuations and so forth). Unlike public revelation (i.e. Sacred Scripture & Tradition) the Church herself has no providential protection in the realm of private revelations. However movement are now underway to have these messages evaluated thoroughly through the correct channels at this point in time to ensrue that are in conformity with all aspects of Catholic doctrine and public revelation.
The visionary accepts that in the case of those who claim to receive messages of a divine nature that they need to be treated with extreme caution. She therefore accepts fully that the messages must be examined by qualified theologians. As such she has made them readily available to the Catholic Church for full examination.

antiskeptic

Keylem wrote: »

Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20:30

That verse can be used to support any old tosh you care to insert into the silence left by scripture.

Over the following centuries much has been revealed through revelation of the Saints and the Mother of Jesus, and are deemed worthy of belief by the C.C. the custodian of fullness of the Truth.

Donatelo is dead. Long love Donatello

Note that the angels were also created perfect,

Source?

..yet a third of them rejected God in favor of autonomy. It would appear that Free Will is a greater good than sinlessness.

Which would mean their perfection was their being perfectly fit for purpose. Which involved the ability to choose and live with the consequences. Which makes Hell part of perfection.

No argument there to my mind.

The highest goal of Creation is love of God and love of others. This is not possible without Free Will.

We won't have free will 'in heaven' so love must be possible without freewill

But you probably need to utilise freewill to get yourself 'into heaven' in order to become a person who is able to love but who hasn't freewill anymore.

Bob Cratchet

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f but only the Father." Matt. 24:36

gimmebroadband

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f but only the Father." Matt. 24:36

It's got nothing to do with the end of the world, which no one knows! It's a wake up call!!

Bob Cratchet

gimmebroadband wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with the end of the world, which no one knows! It's a wake up call!!

Why's it called "New prophecies reveal global events in the lead up to the Second Coming" then ?

gimmebroadband

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Why's it called "New prophecies reveal global events in the lead up to the Second Coming" then ?

It's not about a physical 2nd coming, It's about a new era after the warning where there will be mass conversions and Jesus will reign in the hearts of mankind. You should read the messages!

Bob Cratchet

gimmebroadband wrote: »

It's not about a physical 2nd coming, It's about a new era after the warning where there will be mass conversions and Jesus will reign in the hearts of mankind. You should read the messages!

"It will be a very powerful event and one that no one will be able to ignore. Everyone will become instantly aware that God exists and each will be shown their sins as they appear in the eyes of God"

Removal of free will and voices in the head ?

I don't think so. I think I'll stick with the usual devotions.

Slav

antiskeptic wrote: »

We won't have free will 'in heaven'

Why is that?

Baggio1

yup is only a few months away it seems but wont be sent till Pope Benedict has to leave Rome... it will coincide with the arrival of the comet and some sort of collision in the sky over earth thats when the sky will literaly peel back and everyone over the age of reason 7 i think? will be brought to a mini judgement of their unconfessed sins - we will all see the state of our souls as GOD see'e us, and also will be warned not to worship the coming anti christ maitreya after that its up to humanity to stay on Gods way of living if not then the chastisement will come ww3, anti christ etc
funnily enough a lot of military is now adjusting and building up around syria's coast and word is USA ground troops ARE being sent to Lybia despite the lies of that lying trickster obama and there is a comet due to arrive veryy close to earth between late september/october

patrickk

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

"It will be a very powerful event and one that no one will be able to ignore. Everyone will become instantly aware that God exists and each will be shown their sins as they appear in the eyes of God"

Removal of free will and voices in the head ?

I don't think so. I think I'll stick with the usual devotions.

God will always respect the laws of His creation and laws of nature by which we are all part of whether we believe in them or not .If you think anything God does will remove free will then you are sadly mistaken .
The current fascist illiminati run regimes we are all living under nowadays are removing free will from our every day lives .A society that closes down a hospital ,stops individuals cutting turf that has been cut for thousands of years Bord na Mona by the way destroyed more bogs in Ireland than any turf cutter.Farming industry in Ireland destroyed by paying farmers to do nothing with their land (crazy stuff).Giving 100's billions worth of gas to multinational like Shell for practically free.Fishing industry destroyed in Ireland by EU .Euro currency about to collapse .
I dont see God anywhere there do you?
This is all created and fueled by man and man alone .
I'm disgusted with us irish for fighting good fight for centuries and when it stares us in our face like never before we are like pussies whinging and moaning and doing nothing about .Voting against Lisbon Treaty then Voting for it we have our own fears and faults to blame for Ireland inevitable loss of its own Free Will which I shame to say our ancestors died as martyrs defending their towns ,villages ,and families from oppression .

Shame on Ireland ,fragmented confetti of our brave ancestors !

patrickk

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f but only the Father." Matt. 24:36

If you read the messages that Maria has been given there is no mention of a specific time and in fact Our Lord Jesus says to be vigilant of those that do declare a day or hour !He will never declare a day or hour because that is breaking law of nature as laid out by God Our Eternal Father which is Free Will.

http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/words-of-comfort-regarding-those-who-question-these-messages/

patrickk

http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/god-the-father-one-most-urgent-message-to-mankind/

gimmebroadband

patrickk wrote: »

God will always respect the laws of His creation and laws of nature by which we are all part of whether we believe in them or not .If you think anything God does will remove free will then you are sadly mistaken .
The current fascist illiminati run regimes we are all living under nowadays are removing free will from our every day lives .A society that closes down a hospital ,stops individuals cutting turf that has been cut for thousands of years Bord na Mona by the way destroyed more bogs in Ireland than any turf cutter.Farming industry in Ireland destroyed by paying farmers to do nothing with their land (crazy stuff).Giving 100's billions worth of gas to multinational like Shell for practically free.Fishing industry destroyed in Ireland by EU .Euro currency about to collapse .
I dont see God anywhere there do you?
This is all created and fueled by man and man alone .
I'm disgusted with us irish for fighting good fight for centuries and when it stares us in our face like never before we are like pussies whinging and moaning and doing nothing about .Voting against Lisbon Treaty then Voting for it we have our own fears and faults to blame for Ireland inevitable loss of its own Free Will which I shame to say our ancestors died as martyrs defending their towns ,villages ,and families from oppression .

Shame on Ireland ,fragmented confetti of our brave ancestors !

Absolutely spot on mate, we are ruled by a nanny state and it's our own fault, I voted NO twice against the Lisbon Treaty, I knew we were handing out more power to the anti-christ!!!

Baggio1

yup sums it up pretty well this is in revelations scripture aswell its in

revelations chapter 6 versus 12 to 16 it concerns the warning thats soon going to come.

fascinating indeed....