Are our Races long enough?

morana

Was wondering what your thoughts are on this.
I seen that the Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne for juniors was 116km! I owuld say that a lot of A1 races here arent that long...

Should the A3's be doing the same distance as A1/2?

Lets leave the A4's out of this for the moment.

spokeydokey

Do you mean generally or are you talking about preparing junior riders for higher level competition?

I think the races are long enough here for the A1/2s.
I did think that some of the accidents in the A3 races last year were in part down to the fact that there was too many fresh riders sprinting at the finish. It looked like about 60 lads felt they could when in Bohermeen.

Diarmuid

Maybe as the season progresses, longer race could be run. However it's nice to start off with relatively short races. Wouldn't like to be doing 100k races in the first week in March.

RobFowl

spokeydokey wrote: »

I did think that some of the accidents in the A3 races last year were in part down to the fact that there was too many fresh riders sprinting at the finish. It looked like about 60 lads felt they could when in Bohermeen.

Swap A3 for the old 3rd cat and have 6 missing teeth which proves your point

Personally I think the A1 races are too short but I know when organisers put on longer races they often struggle to attract decent fields.

I would worry about longer junior races and am very worried about the number or young riders getting overuse injuries. The drop out rate from the junior ranks and U23 riders at the moment is already far too high and that would be where I'd be more worried about examining.

LCRC_BAX

Make them all Milan Sam Remo's, after 300kms anyone able to stay upright let alone sprint will deserve a medal

RobFowl

Diarmuid wrote: »

Maybe as the season progresses, longer race could be run. However it's nice to start off with relatively short races. Wouldn't like to be doing 100k races in the first week in March.

If you were planning on doing the RAS seriously then it's 120+k races you need from the off. The top riders here can be in their comfort zone a bit here. That said the other end of the spectrum 50k ish events are fine. The balance in the middle is the grey area

Diarmuid

RobFowl wrote: »

If you were planning on doing the RAS seriously then it's 120+k races you need from the off.

No doubt. I was talking more about A3ers

BryanL

Races for all Cats should be longer, anyone dropping out at junior and underage levels because races are too tough are in the wrong sport.

The Lacy cup is 72K? That's a waste of time for going into Ras Mumham,Shay Elliott,Ras, Suir Valley etc. etc.
Bryan

RobFowl

RobFowl wrote: »

If you were planning on doing the RAS seriously then it's 120+k races you need from the off.

Diarmuid wrote: »

No doubt. I was talking more about A3ers

RobFowl wrote: »

If you were planning on doing the RAS seriously then it's 120+k races you need from the off. The top riders here can be in their comfort zone a bit here. That said the other end of the spectrum 50k ish events are fine. The balance in the middle is the grey area

As was I in the full post

Chips Lovell

morana wrote: »

I seen that the Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne for juniors was 116km!

I'd say if you're riding the junior KBK, you're at a fairly elite level for juniors. I'd be worried whether you're comparing like with like.

RobFowl wrote: »

I would worry about longer junior races and am very worried about the number or young riders getting overuse injuries. The drop out rate from the junior ranks and U23 riders at the moment is already far too high and that would be where I'd be more worried about examining.

You'd probably know more about this than me, but are the injuries related to race length, or would it be more that they're receiving poor training? Also, are the dropout rates related to injuries?

Another thing, do we even know if the same happens with young riders in Belgium? It's pretty much the national sport there. So if you get a swath of young riders giving it up due to injuries, they're still going to have a lot of talent coming through.

morana wrote: »

Lets leave the A4's out of this for the moment.

I know this is an aside, but some A4 races are way to short. I lined out for one last year that was only around 30km. Given the travel involved, it's a lot to be on the bike for less than an hour.

hinault

BryanL wrote: »

Races for all Cats should be longer, anyone dropping out at junior and underage levels because races are too tough are in the wrong sport.

The Lacy cup is 72K? That's a waste of time for going into Ras Mumham,Shay Elliott,Ras, Suir Valley etc. etc.
Bryan

+1

uberwolf

too short IMO.

12 sprocket

What is burnout and is it a problem in ireland? does cycling for too long cause this problem, should races be shorter to avoid this

ryan_sherlock

On the A1 level, races in general are way too short. 60km and 80km at the weekend (okay - first weekend of racing, so ease us back into it etc.. etc...).

Still - you get, maybe one, if you are lucky, race that is 100km+ a weekend in Ireland - then I go to the RAS where we are racing 160+ every day. You could see it in the other county riders - they were good to about 80 or 90km, then when the race actually started - most were thrashed, hanging on for grief death rather than trying to race.

My plan - ride to the race, ride home from the race - treat the race as training, it is the only way to get the load in for the bigger races.

As was mentioned, things like, RAS Mumhan and Tour of Ulster were excellent last year in my prep for the RAS.

I can see the point of view of organizers - make a race 140km and then there will really only be a few competing for the top steps. Make it a flat 60km and hundreds will turn out for the "sit in till the sprint" racing.

Diarmuid

RobFowl wrote: »

As was I in the full post

Too cryptic for me

spokeydokey

I feel that the higher speed and a lack practice riding in a competitive peloton are big factors in riders struggling in races like the Ras.
Distance is of course a factor too but not the main difference.

fat bloke

In fairness, longer races also means stuff like more expense, more marshals/longer marshaling times, more inconvenience for locals and other road users. Also with the likes of the club league, there's probably not enough daylight in the evenings to stretch the distances any.

I think the races ARE too short btw but with attitudes to cycling generally and practical reasons like above, I can see why they won't/don't make them longer.

Caroline_ie

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

My plan - ride to the race, ride home from the race - treat the race as training, it is the only way to get the load in for the bigger races.

Would you be racing home after the race too? Or keep it to an easy-ish pace?

ryan_sherlock

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Would you be racing home after the race too? Or keep it to an easy-ish pace?

Depends - usually endurance/low tempo... depends how I feel

Lumen

OK, possibly daft suggestion.

A1/A2. Let the A1s out a lap or so early to wear each other out, then release the A2s out ahead of them.

A3/A4. Let the A3s out a lap or so early to wear each other out, then release the A4s out ahead of them.

That way, the better cyclists get the distance but you don't necessarily end up with the top two or three people finishing on their own, because everyone approaches the finish similarly knackered.

ryan_sherlock

fat bloke wrote: »

In fairness, longer races also means stuff like more expense, more marshals/longer marshaling times, more inconvenience for locals and other road users. Also with the likes of the club league, there's probably not enough daylight in the evenings to stretch the distances any.

Club leagues are one thing - during the week, after work for most people - a short sharp session works well.

I do see the difficulties involved too (and am very thankful for the clubs that run races!).

Personally, I would have no problem adding an extra €5 to entry for races that are over, say 100km... To help assist the club/marshalls, get them a beer after the race. I know this is another debate but I think €10 for a race is very very good value (my UK XC races are closer to €50!). I would have no issues paying €15 if the race was longer -> needing more resources.

I rolled up to the races at the weekend up north and looking at the kit everyone is running, I don't think many will have a €5 issue if given a longer race.

Difficulty of races is another thing (tougher terrain etc...) that is needed for prep for upping our racers abilities. I know of lots of fantastic Irish racers who win lots of races (so a great racing head), but when the roads are very tough - fall apart.

Having said all of the above - attendance is going up - maybe we shouldn't alter something that is working well (at least at getting people onto bikes and racing)...

ryan_sherlock

Lumen wrote: »

OK, possibly daft suggestion.
A1/A2. Let the A1s out a lap or so early to wear each other out, then release the A2s out ahead of them.

I have often thought about that as a great idea... Last weekends race for me around Nutts Corner was 82km. Short... For the A3 riders, in the same race - riding for 2 hours at 40kmph, even if just sitting in, I'm sure was at the end of their abilities...

A little awkward to get the timing right - but hey, with all handicap races, it is awkward getting the timing right.

victorcarrera

I would be in favour of shorter races, both pro and amateur, where riders were not allowed to take on the bike nutrition.
It would be interesting to see how the balance of abilities would pan out over various terrain and possibly move the sport one step closer to true genetics.
For example, many keen cycling supporters I know will now only watch highlights or the last 20 mins of the grand tour stages.
I think it would be healthier for the riders too because they would not have to dig so deep for so long before bonking. Minimising the number of sugar highs and lows as a result of the amount of carb drinks taken, can help to prevent depression, obesity and intestinal disorders in later life too.
The fact that some TDF riders will take something like 10 to 15 litres of liquid to get them through just one hot day is madness.
I don't think that training for and cycling around in a vacuum for 4 to 6 hours day after day servers any purpose especially when the TT distances are generally between 16 and 40Km.

Lumen

victorcarrera wrote: »

I would be in favour of shorter races, both pro and amateur, where riders were not allowed to take on the bike nutrition.

Problem is, the races would then become a contest of who could race on a full stomach.

I foresee much vomiting.

victorcarrera

Lumen wrote: »

Problem is, the races would then become a contest of who could race on a full stomach.

I foresee much vomiting.

LOL

And if I was to follow High 5's pre race nutritional advice I would be one of them.
And to do it would be a good spin ruined.
I just don't know how some people do it.

petethedrummer

Surely races can be made more difficult independent of length with more corners, hills, teamwork, even combativity prizes(not sure it would be workable). More redlining efforts rather than a wearing down at 3/4 of max.

dave2pvd

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

I think €10 for a race is very very good value (my UK XC races are closer to €50!).

€10! You lucky ba5tard5!

I'm paying at least $35 and as much as $50 for late reg. Doesn't matter if its a RR or a Crit. TTs are sometimes a bit cheaper. Most weekends are TT, Crit, RR (Sun), so typically an omnium discount is available, but its all of $10.

I just did this on Saturday. Check out those $80 entry fees.

Lumen

dave2pvd wrote: »

I just did this on Saturday. Check out those $80 entry fees.

Post race party! w00t! We need those.

fat bloke

I tell ya something. I'd definitely be willing to pay a lot more for closed road racing, be that rolling or total closures. The current system is dodgy out, with Toyota Landcruisers barrelling in the opposite direction at 60mph, driver on the phone, and not even a cursory tip of the brakes...

The Crunch

I've always thought A3 races could be a bit longer. Generally 10 or 15km would stretch the legs a bit more. Road racing is traditionally an endurance sport. Crits, TTs, hillclimbs etc. are different branches of the sport.
Maybe the Road Commission could issue guidelines on race lengths for each category for various times of the year? If the guidelines were flagged and publicised in advance I'm sure they would be taken on board.
Lots of A4 races were very short last year. I rode a 25 mile road race in Stamullen last year. I'd hardly rubbed the sleep from my eyes before it was over... I suppose organisers had to come to terms with the extra race on the card for a new category. It was a learning process for everyone. I notice that the first couple of Leinster races this weekend have A4 races which are the same length as the A3 races which is great.
Adding distance to the races is far less likely to affect entry numbers than the terrain, I reckon. An 80km race up every wall in the county is much more likely to have a small turnout than 100km on the flat.
I don't think adding some length to the races would add massively to the organisers expenses. A little bit of petrol but I don't think it would make a big difference.
Please don't lobby for race entry increase! It's tough enough to race twice or three times a week as it is, and that's one of the great traditions of road racing.

High Nellie

Lumen wrote: »

OK, possibly daft suggestion.

A1/A2. Let the A1s out a lap or so early to wear each other out, then release the A2s out ahead of them.

A3/A4. Let the A3s out a lap or so early to wear each other out, then release the A4s out ahead of them.

That way, the better cyclists get the distance but you don't necessarily end up with the top two or three people finishing on their own, because everyone approaches the finish similarly knackered.

This isn't quite true. If you let A3s off on some courses, knowing that the race will come together before the end (which it really has to do in fairness to the best riders), there is no incentive to try to 'stay away'. It's more tactical to take it handy, wait for the fast bunch to come up and then get drafted up to the guys that are trying to stay away.

High Nellie

victorcarrera wrote: »

I would be in favour of shorter races, both pro and amateur, where riders were not allowed to take on the bike nutrition.
It would be interesting to see how the balance of abilities would pan out over various terrain and possibly move the sport one step closer to true genetics.
For example, many keen cycling supporters I know will now only watch highlights or the last 20 mins of the grand tour stages.
I think it would be healthier for the riders too because they would not have to dig so deep for so long before bonking. Minimising the number of sugar highs and lows as a result of the amount of carb drinks taken, can help to prevent depression, obesity and intestinal disorders in later life too.
The fact that some TDF riders will take something like 10 to 15 litres of liquid to get them through just one hot day is madness.
I don't think that training for and cycling around in a vacuum for 4 to 6 hours day after day servers any purpose especially when the TT distances are generally between 16 and 40Km.

And next, we're going to have testing for sugar doping .... ???

morana

last year i did a race 33miles.... what a waste of time.

anyway the reason I asked was that in general I feel the races are too short. Many of the older posters (eg callaly) I am sure would remember that they used to have a fair few (1 day) races of 160km. The toolin was one of those iirc.

I think a minimum distance for each month could be put in place which the RC would make the organisers adhere to. I accept that some organisers will try outdo races nearby to attract a big field however I dont think itis for the good of the sport.

brainstorm

This is going back a bit, but the first two or three races of the year were traditionally short. After that they got longer immediately.

Taking the point of the Junior K-B-K, here junior races used to always be 60 mls, the junior nationals was 75mls and the Junior Tour stages were in the range of 55 -70mls. It used to be easier to have longer races for certain categories, as frequently they had their own race. A3's back then used to race the same distances as the juniors.

Similar for what are now A1/A2 races, there were usually around 70 mls and the 'classic league' were up to 80 /90 and the nationals could easily be 100mls.

Don't really know why the race distances came down though. I always seemed to remember it happening when the drugs scandals started happening... it could have been fall off in CI membership numbers too!

12 sprocket

Speed Kills
To get back to Kurne brussels kurne and juniors riding 116 k. Compare the speed of the pro race 41.5 kph to 39.1 kph for juniors, these juniors were obviously flying along, so does it really matter about reducing increasing irish race distance.
Any rider who intends racing as a pro or in these top junior races needs a huge talent and great training to be succesful

amjon.

There should be some sort of attempt to set up a classic series like the premier Calender in the UK. The Shay Elliot could be the curtain raiser with other races down in Waterford, maybe a Kelly GP? Then Kerry, Cork ect, ect. One every 3 or 4 weeks, 6 or 7 in total. All 150-180k.

RobFowl

amjon. wrote: »

There should be some sort of attempt to set up a classic series like the premier Calender in the UK. The Shay Elliot could be the curtain raiser with other races down in Waterford, maybe a Kelly GP? Then Kerry, Cork ect, ect. One every 3 or 4 weeks, 6 or 7 in total. All 150-180k.

CI to be fair do run the "Classic league" which is similar to what you propose. The problem with it is largely due to lack of numbers and many A1 riders staying away.
Seems it's more popular to whoop A2/3 ass in local handicaps than travel to compete against your peers....

amjon.

RobFowl wrote: »

CI to be fair do run the "Classic league" which is similar to what you propose. The problem with it is largely due to lack of numbers and many A1 riders staying away.
Seems it's more popular to whoop A2/3 ass in local handicaps than travel to compete against your peers....

In the UK there was constant complaints that there was not enough Cat 1 races and the few that did go ahead were located in the North West(the same region British cycling are based). I think the problem with high level/ A 1 racing is that it takes a huge amount of commitment and dedication to even be competitive in these races. Without a large slice of talent (and perhaps even with) you have to forego a lot of other things in your life. For most people this sustainable for a couple of years hence the low number of Cat 1 races in the UK and maybe low number of A1's in Ireland. Maybe the reduction in the length of A1 races is an attempt to attract more A1's? This might work in the short term but as has been pointed out already in this thread it will be detrimental to future generations of cyclists.
Rowing in Ireland suffers a similar problem - there is very little senior competition. It has gotten to the stage where you need to travel to the UK to get some decent racing at senior level(Senior level is comparable to A1/A2 in cycling).
I think the solution to this problem will not be found fiddling with categories and race lengths for A1/A2 riders but by increasing participation and competition at A4/A3 levels thus ensuring these riders have developed the requisite skills and fitness to be competitive in A1/A2 level races once they upgrade. Eventually the pool of A1/A2 riders will grow and races length will have to be increased in order to ensure 80 people aren't arriving on the finishing line ready to sprint it out.

High Nellie

amjon. wrote: »

There should be some sort of attempt to set up a classic series like the premier Calender in the UK. The Shay Elliot could be the curtain raiser with other races down in Waterford, maybe a Kelly GP? Then Kerry, Cork ect, ect. One every 3 or 4 weeks, 6 or 7 in total. All 150-180k.

Yes, the classic league that we had last year was poorly though out and it is clear to see the flaws.
For example, as it went on, few riders had a stake as the points leaders were emerging. In other words, there was no point in racining for 10th place or even travelling long distances to the events when you could get more handy races nearer home, once it became clear that you werent' going to make the top few places.
Even if a simple measure like a category for club teams was intorduced it would give a stake in the races to a much broader field of riders and make the racing competitive, even back in the field. Even if provincial rankings for club team were published after each event it would create a lot of interest for average riders. These would then have to compete in hard, long premier events for the sake of club and team etc.
There are many more such measures that could be brought into a permier league to fit the Irish context and make it worthwhile and competitive for the bulk of A1/2 riders and their clubs.
Of course, this would need to be planned now for next year but I can't see that happening.