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Bus Stop Authorisations

  • 28-02-2011 5:22pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    Recently Ive made some enquiries about a new bus stop which was installed close to where I live. As most of you would probably be aware, Dublin Bus require Garda and NTA authorisation prior to implementing new routes and new stops. However, despite extensive research to date, I have yet to uncover any documentation that has actually granted this authorisation. It made me think about how many other stops around Dublin dont actually have the correct documentation required. There are 5000 stops around the city, some of which are causing problems for local residents. My dealings with Dublin Bus show them to be a little less than cooperative when they are questioned about their actions. If youre having problems with the positioning of your stop, I would suggest you try and confirm that they have actually done all they are supposed to do with the NTA, Gardai and Local County Council. If you need any names or addresses I would be happy to provide them.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    Councils, not Dublin Bus, are responsible for bus stops.

    What exactly is your problem with your local bus stop? Where is it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭ Bazzer2


    Dublin Bus are responsible for their own stops, but the Gardaí have the final say on their location.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    monument wrote: »
    Councils, not Dublin Bus, are responsible for bus stops.

    What exactly is your problem with your local bus stop? Where is it?

    Actually councils are not responsible for them at all. The positioning of stops are solely at the discretion of Dublin Bus, who apply to the NTA for their Authorisation and get Garda traffic safety approval. According to the senior officials in the Councils I have spoken to, they are only consulted when works like road marking or road alterations are required. They have no input in any way in the decision making process.

    As far as our own issue. DB have installed a terminus smack bang in the middle of a suburban residental estate on a stretch of road about 300 yards long, which is already jam packed with 9 buses an hour, which is a major route for the morning and afternoon runs of 5 nearby schools. They have so far denied any safety risk despite their own Strategic Planner witnessing a near fatal accident on the road involving school kids running from one bus to another across the road. Aside from the safety issue theres also the noise and air pollution one due to drivers refusing to turn off their engines despite under instructions to do so.

    Its not as if there isnt an alternative. 100yards around the corner, on a wider road, there is a dedicated bus lane which no other bus in their fleet uses, away from residental properties, that wouldnt cause the traffic backup in the mornings, is on a fully lit road and is fully visible on approach for nearly a kilometre.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    Sorry, I may have confused bus stops and bus shelters...

    Can you say where this bus stop is?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    monument wrote: »
    Sorry, I may have confused bus stops and bus shelters...

    Can you say where this bus stop is?


    Planning permission is indeed needed for a bus shelter.

    Its out in west dublin, part of the supposed upgrades.

    What galls me most is the arrogance exhibited by all concerned, and the hand wringing by every party Ive spoken to. DB obviously feel that they dont need paperwork to get their stops, dont need to follow the rules set down and are happy to dig in their heels even though every angle of this problem shows a benefit to moving the stop for residents, drivers, commuters, cyclists, schoolkids. If this is their manner in dealing with this just one stop which I havent found any authorisation for, then how many around the city are the same. Id love 5000 requests to go into O'Connell St asking for the correct paperwork to be seen for each and every stop. Might take the smug arrogance out of their stance


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,971 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    I can only assume you are talking about the 151 terminus on Balgaddy Road, between Ballyowen Road and Foxborough?

    While you have a point regarding not switching off engines at a terminus (no excuse), I'd have to say that to suggest it's right in the middle of a residential area is a bit much given not a single driveway opens onto that stretch of road, and it is a through road in its own right. Perhaps the terminus might be better around the corner, but I think you are being disingenuous in your description of the location - I'd fully understand your argument if the terminus were in Foxborough itself, but it's not.

    As for kids nearly being killed - there is a fully signalled junction just up from the terminus which they should be using. However, kids being kids, I suspect even if the bus terminus were around the corner on Ballyowen Road that they would still run across the road.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I can only assume you are talking about the 151 terminus on Balgaddy Road, between Ballyowen Road and Foxborough?

    While you have a point regarding not switching off engines at a terminus (no excuse), I'd have to say that to suggest it's right in the middle of a residential area is a bit much given not a single driveway opens onto that stretch of road, and it is a through road in it's own right. Perhaps the terminus might be better around the corner, but I think you are being disingenuous in your description of the location - I'd fully understand your argument if the terminus were in Foxborough itself, but it's not.

    As for kids nearly being killed - there is a fully signalled junction just up from the terminus which they should be using. However, kids being kids, I suspect even if the bus terminus were around the corner on Ballyowen Road that they would still run across the road.

    The issue of whether driveways open onto the position of a terminus is immaterial to be honest. Im assuming you know the road, and so therefore know the chaos it causes in the morning rush. The fact that traffic has to pass so close to each other when trying to overtake a parked bus on the side of an unaltered road is creating problems for cyclists and the more nervous drivers that populate the area. There has been numerous mornings where 3 buses coming from different diections have blocked the road and traffic for up to 5 minutes at a time because of the red lights a couple of yards down the road.

    However Im glad you agree that it would make more sense to move it around the corner, cause every person Ive spoken to is flabbergasted at the position DB has taken, from County Councillors, SDCC Road Dept, TD's, Dublin Bus drivers themselves, the local DB Chief Inspector, our residents, the road users of the 'throughway' as you call it.

    To be honest I dont feel Im being too disingenuous. Our overriding concern has been the safety of road users and the common sense repositioning of one single stop by 100 yards to a spot that solves so many of the issues. And the fact that Ive discovered that DB dont actually have documentary authorisation to place the stop where theyve placed it just pops the cherry on top. Thats the real purpose of my post, to let people be aware that stops that have popped up over the past few years may not have the relevant paperwork and that if you have an issue, then get it checked out, demand sight of the authorisation from DB, and dont let then away with fobbing you off. They cant just impose themselves where theyre not wanted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,998 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    As for kids nearly being killed - there is a fully signalled junction just up from the terminus which they should be using. However, kids being kids, I suspect even if the bus terminus were around the corner on Ballyowen Road that they would still run across the road.

    Which,lxflyer,brings us neatly back to a long running subsidiary issue in all of this.

    Pedestrian Barriers.

    Where Local Authorities install and commission large Traffic Signal arrays which include dedicated pedesterian phases it should be accompanied by enough safety barrier to ensure that pedestrians actually use it.

    The difference in attititude between ourselves and the UK on this is immediately noticeable when you drive off any ferry.

    Safe,efficient Mass movement of human beings depends upon the provision of clear,unambigious directions...otherwise we have a natural tendency to kill ourselves. :mad:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,998 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    Riverston wrote: »

    However Im glad you agree that it would make more sense to move it around the corner, cause every person Ive spoken to is flabbergasted at the position DB has taken, from County Councillors, SDCC Road Dept, TD's, Dublin Bus drivers themselves, the local DB Chief Inspector, our residents, the road users of the 'throughway' as you call it.

    To be honest I dont feel Im being too disingenuous. Our overriding concern has been the safety of road users and the common sense repositioning of one single stop by 100 yards to a spot that solves so many of the issues. And the fact that Ive discovered that DB dont actually have documentary authorisation to place the stop where theyve placed it just pops the cherry on top. Thats the real purpose of my post, to let people be aware that stops that have popped up over the past few years may not have the relevant paperwork and that if you have an issue, then get it checked out, demand sight of the authorisation from DB, and dont let then away with fobbing you off. They cant just impose themselves where theyre not wanted.

    An interesting thread Riverston,which may well have far-reaching consequences IF your position can be found to be correct.

    The entire Bus-Stop location business became centre-stage in the aftermath of the Wellington Quay disaster.

    There were,at that time,several issues surrounding the movement of Bus Termini to facilitate Luas building work in the City.

    There was also a suggestion that agreement upon Termini location was proving difficult to achieve and as a result the Gardai made an executive decision to locate them by their own direction.

    It remains an issue which surfaced and just as quickly submerged again without arousing any great curiosity.

    Perhaps a more visible example of this Bus Stop mercenary approach can be seen in Dublin City Centre every day at the O Connell St/Sackville Place Junction where Dualway Coaches have a Staff Member functioning as a human bus-stop for it`s open-top tour of Dublin.

    This individual sells tickets and stops each of their services in a location of incredible danger and obstruction to every othe road user and pedestrian.

    Yet Gardai regularly tread wearily past and near-misses occur within their view without stimulating any form of response,even a disinterested one.

    While in your own case it may appear as if Dublin Bus simply stick a Bus Stop in a given location,I would councel caution concerning the location you mention,as the situation may not be quite as mercenary as you suggest.

    Remember that the actual pole is little more than a company advertising item,the legal effectivity of the Bus Stop comes with the Statutory Markings,which,of course,are not within Dublin Bus`s remit.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    An interesting thread Riverston,which may well have far-reaching consequences IF your position can be found to be correct.

    The entire Bus-Stop location business became centre-stage in the aftermath of the Wellington Quay disaster.

    There were,at that time,several issues surrounding the movement of Bus Termini to facilitate Luas building work in the City.

    There was also a suggestion that agreement upon Termini location was proving difficult to achieve and as a result the Gardai made an executive decision to locate them by their own direction.

    It remains an issue which surfaced and just as quickly submerged again without arousing any great curiosity.

    Perhaps a more visible example of this Bus Stop mercenary approach can be seen in Dublin City Centre every day at the O Connell St/Sackville Place Junction where Dualway Coaches have a Staff Member functioning as a human bus-stop for it`s open-top tour of Dublin.

    This individual sells tickets and stops each of their services in a location of incredible danger and obstruction to every othe road user and pedestrian.

    Yet Gardai regularly tread wearily past and near-misses occur within their view without stimulating any form of response,even a disinterested one.

    While in your own case it may appear as if Dublin Bus simply stick a Bus Stop in a given location,I would councel caution concerning the location you mention,as the situation may not be quite as mercenary as you suggest.

    Remember that the actual pole is little more than a company advertising item,the legal effectivity of the Bus Stop comes with the Statutory Markings,which,of course,are not within Dublin Bus`s remit.


    To be honest Alek, I really want this to have far reaching consequences. From the near 300 phone calls, dozens of emails, several face to face meetings and FOI requests, Ive come to the conclusion that none of the bodies that have the actual decision changing capablilities within their remit are too bothered about an overall safety concern. The NTA are only concerned with timetables and noting route changes, the Gardai in Dublin Castle are concerned with motorised vehicular traffic, not pedestrians or cyclists, the local County Councils dont even seem to want to bother with any paperwork at all, so how they deal with requests from DB seems to be done by phone call without even checking that the position has been granted. No safety studies, environmental impact studies, traffic studies, noise studies, common sense studies look to have done or commissioned, and noone that I have been asking from since early December has produced anything in writing to contradict any of what Ive said.

    What we dont want is another Carpenterstown type incident, where a child was killed as a direct result of the positioning of a bus stop, and that one was moved immediately after. I'll be honest with you, the way we have been dealt with by the powers that be has only intensified our resolve to resolve the problem before a major incident happens. And we are not alone. There are several areas around the city that I know of that have huge problems dealing with DB and their positionings. And if this thread helps them find a new way to bring accountability to an organisation that has no overseer, or regulatory body, or indeed any Governmental department to whom they are answerable to, then it'll have done its job.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    Can anybody point out exactly where this is on Google Maps or Street View?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,971 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    monument wrote: »
    Can anybody point out exactly where this is on Google Maps or Street View?

    Look at the first inbound stop on the 151 route on the Dublin Bus website using the map facility on the timetable page.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭✭✭ WBrazel


    A lot of Nimby-ism going on in this thread. Having seen the 151 Foxborough terminus, which offers a good connection point in the Lucan transport network, I can honestly say I can't see the problem.

    Its located on a wide road with clearly enough room for cars to overtake and pass on the otherside, at reasonable speeds. I think however that this hits the nail on the head in this one. Having witnessed some of the driving styles in this area, maybe Riverston should be looking for a speed trap to be located on the road. However I think he is more concerned with the time it takes to speed down the road, as he complains about traffic, and slow motorists and confused cyclists, who are probably just ensuring the rest of the traffic goes at a safe pace.

    Reality is that children do run out in front of things. The only thing that ensures their safety is motorists going at safe speeds. You can't blame stationary objects for killing children. When driving in an estate, you should take responsibility for your own vehicle. If you can't see beyond a bus, maybe its wise to slow down in case of children. As for Carpenterstown, that child was not killed by a bus. There was nothing dangerous about that terminus, the case is a tragic one, but again motorists seem to want to cling onto the fact that a stationary bus somehow caused a moving vehicle to hit a child. What do you do around blind bends. Speed up and fingers crossed there aren't any children??

    As for noise, if you didn't want noise why move into a house near a road. Thats a free piece of advise you would have got from any relocation, relocation program. This is a city, Foxborough is in it, and buses are a main and required part of it.

    Maybe people are ignoring you because you don't really have a case. Even if something tragic does occur how can a stationary bus be blamed. If buses were running around estates knocking down children then maybe you should complain about buses in estates, but thats not the case, just inconsiderate motorists who don't see the bus as a necessary obstacle that must be overtaken with caution. The speed limit is a max speed, its not a right. Not every road under every circumstance should be made such that speed limit is a must. A bus needs to be somewhere, slow down.

    As for Wellington Quay, that was a disaster waiting to happen unfortunately. But the bus company was made operate under these difficult conditions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,971 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Riverston wrote: »
    The issue of whether driveways open onto the position of a terminus is immaterial to be honest. Im assuming you know the road, and so therefore know the chaos it causes in the morning rush. The fact that traffic has to pass so close to each other when trying to overtake a parked bus on the side of an unaltered road is creating problems for cyclists and the more nervous drivers that populate the area. There has been numerous mornings where 3 buses coming from different diections have blocked the road and traffic for up to 5 minutes at a time because of the red lights a couple of yards down the road.

    However Im glad you agree that it would make more sense to move it around the corner, cause every person Ive spoken to is flabbergasted at the position DB has taken, from County Councillors, SDCC Road Dept, TD's, Dublin Bus drivers themselves, the local DB Chief Inspector, our residents, the road users of the 'throughway' as you call it.

    To be honest I dont feel Im being too disingenuous. Our overriding concern has been the safety of road users and the common sense repositioning of one single stop by 100 yards to a spot that solves so many of the issues. And the fact that Ive discovered that DB dont actually have documentary authorisation to place the stop where theyve placed it just pops the cherry on top. Thats the real purpose of my post, to let people be aware that stops that have popped up over the past few years may not have the relevant paperwork and that if you have an issue, then get it checked out, demand sight of the authorisation from DB, and dont let then away with fobbing you off. They cant just impose themselves where theyre not wanted.

    The point that I was making re driveways is that Balgaddy Road is not a residential road as you described it - it is a through road for traffic between Ballyowen Road and Fonthill Road.

    The issue with children crossing the road is frankly not going to disappear if the terminus moves - they are still going to do it. That is frankly a different issue altogether. As Alek Smart says that is down to the County Council putting barriers in to restrict locations where people can cross the road - but I cannot see barriers being installed along the entire length of that road - it would be overkill.

    I think that reading your posts that your real issue is the stretch of road between the roundabout and the traffic lights is relatively short, and is busy at rush hour. Given there is no layby for buses to park in, you view that they are causing an obstruction to rush hour traffic.

    Maybe a half-width parking bay would be the solution?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,998 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    WBrazel wrote: »
    A lot of Nimby-ism going on in this thread. Having seen the 151 Foxborough terminus, which offers a good connection point in the Lucan transport network, I can honestly say I can't see the problem.

    Its located on a wide road with clearly enough room for cars to overtake and pass on the otherside, at reasonable speeds. I think however that this hits the nail on the head in this one. Having witnessed some of the driving styles in this area, maybe Riverston should be looking for a speed trap to be located on the road. However I think he is more concerned with the time it takes to speed down the road, as he complains about traffic, and slow motorists and confused cyclists, who are probably just ensuring the rest of the traffic goes at a safe pace.

    Reality is that children do run out in front of things. The only thing that ensures their safety is motorists going at safe speeds. You can't blame stationary objects for killing children. When driving in an estate, you should take responsibility for your own vehicle. If you can't see beyond a bus, maybe its wise to slow down in case of children. As for Carpenterstown, that child was not killed by a bus. There was nothing dangerous about that terminus, the case is a tragic one, but again motorists seem to want to cling onto the fact that a stationary bus somehow caused a moving vehicle to hit a child. What do you do around blind bends. Speed up and fingers crossed there aren't any children??

    As for noise, if you didn't want noise why move into a house near a road. Thats a free piece of advise you would have got from any relocation, relocation program. This is a city, Foxborough is in it, and buses are a main and required part of it.

    Maybe people are ignoring you because you don't really have a case. Even if something tragic does occur how can a stationary bus be blamed. If buses were running around estates knocking down children then maybe you should complain about buses in estates, but thats not the case, just inconsiderate motorists who don't see the bus as a necessary obstacle that must be overtaken with caution. The speed limit is a max speed, its not a right. Not every road under every circumstance should be made such that speed limit is a must. A bus needs to be somewhere, slow down.

    As for Wellington Quay, that was a disaster waiting to happen unfortunately. But the bus company was made operate under these difficult conditions.

    Top Stuff WBrazel.

    Clear and accurate summation of the problems surrounding our native perception of our built-environment.

    Dublin Bus currently strives to perform it`s duties in the midst of a swamp of Health & Safety related issues,many of them little more than fabrications of events which might happen if. a was b or an eclipse occured at midday...

    There is not an area of its Operations which is immune and Bus Stop location is but one of them.

    In my own case,one of my termini is located smack bang in the middle of a long established resedential area,adjacent to a junction.

    Every day and night the single greatest source of danger and contention is not from the Buses utilising the Terminus (For a direct and socially beneficial reason),but from the ever increasing legions of young and old Private Motorists who appear to floor the throttle when presented with a BUS in their field of vision.

    Sitting in my bus awaiting my departure time I can often predict the style of drive I`m about to witness long before I see the car.....and I`m rarely disappointed :mad:

    Perhaps some photo`s of the offending location might clarify Riverston`s points as it really does appear that the supportive case is less about the actuality and more about the administrative reality of modern Ireland ??

    In the absence of that I`ll align myself with WBrazel .


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The point that I was making re driveways is that Balgaddy Road is not a residential road as you described it - it is a through road for traffic between Ballyowen Road and Fonthill Road.

    The issue with children crossing the road is frankly not going to disappear if the terminus moves - they are still going to do it. That is frankly a different issue altogether. As Alek Smart says that is down to the County Council putting barriers in to restrict locations where people can cross the road - but I cannot see barriers being installed along the entire length of that road - it would be overkill.

    I think that reading your posts that your real issue is the stretch of road between the roundabout and the traffic lights is relatively short, and is busy at rush hour. Given there is no layby for buses to park in, you view that they are causing an obstruction to rush hour traffic.

    Maybe a half-width parking bay would be the solution?


    The original premise of this post isnt necessarily about this specific terminus, although it is the catalyst for the enquiries and investigates we have gone through. My main point is that DB have yet to prove to the residents that the required authorisation they must obtain by the current proceedural rules, and that if it hasnt actually been given for the location they have positioned this stop, then how many more stops around the city have been erected without it either.

    As regards our own issue, the road you mention is part of the estate, is not the through road between Ballyowen and Fonthill. There are two other roads, north and south of Balgaddy Rd, one is a brand new stretch of road build alongside the proposed Clonburris siting which is completely underused, bringing you from the Adamstown roundabout to the Fonthill Road in a much quicker time than it would take trying to negotiate the speed ramps and Archbishops Ryan School leading up to the Millenium Church. It is also surrounded by houses, is already used by 2 other frequent routes and is completely unsuitable to have double decker vehicles sitting for up to 25 minutes each and every hour, forcing traffic to drive around the 'bubbled' white broken line in the middle of the road. SDCC have already admitted that they dont have the funds to build a parking bay, which quite frankly is not the solution. This would only bring the bus several feet closer to the houses in one part of the estate that are already suffering from the noise, air and vibrational pollutants from buses 10 feet from their doors right now.

    I completely agree concerning the kids, that you cant legislate for them doing the right thing all the time. But at the moment when they are let off by school coaches at the Foxborough Estate stop there is no safe place for them to cross between thes stop and the current terminus. No lights, no zebra crossing, no traffic wardens. Of course they are going to run across trying to catch a sitting bus cause they feel its going to drive off. Our suggestion at least gives them the option of crossing at the lights. In fact it gives them the opportunity to get off at one stop early, outside the Moyglass estate, and since you seem to know the area, then the whole traffic lights/island system thats on that junction would be much more convenient and easier to use for them. Putting up barriers is a nonstarter, and not needed.

    Im not sure whether you have a vested interest in the status quo, or in any of the connected parties to this particular issue, your knowledge of the area suggests you are not too far from it, but your reasonings to argue against moving a terminus to one stop on, 100 yards from its current position onto an immeasurably more beneficial spot also suggests that you may have an alterior motive to question the residents,...I dont know. If you actually lived here and were subjected to your walls vibrating at 11 O'Clock at night, your kids being woken from engines running, traffic being held up for no reason other than a resting spot for a bus, watching foolish kids rushing across a road to catch said bus, cyclists nearly being trapped between buses and nervous drivers trying to overtake them, then maybe you would question the sanity of people in authority of a semi state body, that are answerable to none but themselves, even after seeing the potential cathastrophy with their own eyes.

    But as I want to reiterate again, as much as our problem is a major one for us, and one we are dealing with in the best way we can, I am encouraging each and every person around Dublin who has a similar story concerning Dublin Bus, to write and request, copy documentation from the NTA, Dublin Bus and the Garda Traffic Division of the certificate of Authorisation and extract for the positioning of whatever stop you have a problem with, and then question your County Council on whether they have examined this documentation prior to proceeding with road markings or alterations. Id be intersted to see just how many people discover that their stop was installed without the correct proceedures being done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    WBrazel wrote: »
    A lot of Nimby-ism going on in this thread. Having seen the 151 Foxborough terminus, which offers a good connection point in the Lucan transport network, I can honestly say I can't see the problem.

    Its located on a wide road with clearly enough room for cars to overtake and pass on the otherside, at reasonable speeds. I think however that this hits the nail on the head in this one. Having witnessed some of the driving styles in this area, maybe Riverston should be looking for a speed trap to be located on the road. However I think he is more concerned with the time it takes to speed down the road, as he complains about traffic, and slow motorists and confused cyclists, who are probably just ensuring the rest of the traffic goes at a safe pace.

    Reality is that children do run out in front of things. The only thing that ensures their safety is motorists going at safe speeds. You can't blame stationary objects for killing children. When driving in an estate, you should take responsibility for your own vehicle. If you can't see beyond a bus, maybe its wise to slow down in case of children. As for Carpenterstown, that child was not killed by a bus. There was nothing dangerous about that terminus, the case is a tragic one, but again motorists seem to want to cling onto the fact that a stationary bus somehow caused a moving vehicle to hit a child. What do you do around blind bends. Speed up and fingers crossed there aren't any children??

    As for noise, if you didn't want noise why move into a house near a road. Thats a free piece of advise you would have got from any relocation, relocation program. This is a city, Foxborough is in it, and buses are a main and required part of it.

    Maybe people are ignoring you because you don't really have a case. Even if something tragic does occur how can a stationary bus be blamed. If buses were running around estates knocking down children then maybe you should complain about buses in estates, but thats not the case, just inconsiderate motorists who don't see the bus as a necessary obstacle that must be overtaken with caution. The speed limit is a max speed, its not a right. Not every road under every circumstance should be made such that speed limit is a must. A bus needs to be somewhere, slow down.

    As for Wellington Quay, that was a disaster waiting to happen unfortunately. But the bus company was made operate under these difficult conditions.


    I missed your post WB before replying to flyer, apologies.

    Firstly, this isnt a case of NIMBYism. You are picking out points that are not the ones we are highlighting. I have said over and over that we dont object to the stop, only the fact that its used as a terminus. The road is not suited to it, and we have suggested a spot 100 yards away, in its own bus lane, which no other bus in the fleet uses, that the visibility is many times better than where it is now, street lights on the Balgaddy Road have continously burnt out for whatever reason and late at night you can have difficulty seeing a blacked out bus until you are right on top of it. On our alternative you can see ahead on the straight road for over 600 yards before hitting the traffic lights, so any taxi that may use the bus lane has plenty of time to consider his way around the parked double decker. We are not looking for speed ramps, we are not looking for barriers or extra lights. Even the drivers dont want to be there, and we have spoken to quite a few.

    Your free advise is gratefully received and when we did buy our houses the plans showed a tremendously different road structure in the estate. Neither the outer ring road or the Balgaddy road were built at that point. However since their construction, we have lived with the traffic, here in the suburbs we understand that its going to happen. Thats not our issue. We have up to 10 buses an hour drive past, and thats fine, we dont have any gripe about that. However we didnt buy houses for buses terminii to be installed at our front doors. Im not sure whether you would be happy with one outside your door at all hours of the night either with engines running.

    Im not fully understanding your need to defend a position that is obviously causing concern for a multiple of parties, and yet has a solution beneficial to all, without the need for extra Council Council works, extra work for the drivers, extra work for DB, is not repositioning to a spot that will cause inconvenience to bus users, and as someone else pointed out, actually reduces the potential 'what-if' risk. It is this inability to use common sense and good judgement that is astounding us. The ability to recognise that the initial proposition, whereby good intentioned, but slightly flawed and is easily rectified, seems to be beyond the powers that be. The digging in of ones heels...'Im right...and thats it', of someone who doesnt even live in the area, and who doesnt listen to reasoned, thought out debate seems to be one of the worst characteristics of DB. With one single exception, not one of the dozens of people we have spoken to about this issue have sided with DB, and these include traffic experts, engineering professionals, County Council officials.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,971 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Riverston wrote: »
    Im not sure whether you have a vested interest in the status quo, or in any of the connected parties to this particular issue, your knowledge of the area suggests you are not too far from it, but your reasonings to argue against moving a terminus to one stop on, 100 yards from its current position onto an immeasurably more beneficial spot also suggests that you may have an alterior motive to question the residents,...I dont know. If you actually lived here and were subjected to your walls vibrating at 11 O'Clock at night, your kids being woken from engines running, traffic being held up for no reason other than a resting spot for a bus, watching foolish kids rushing across a road to catch said bus, cyclists nearly being trapped between buses and nervous drivers trying to overtake them, then maybe you would question the sanity of people in authority of a semi state body, that are answerable to none but themselves, even after seeing the potential cathastrophy with their own eyes.

    I have no vested interest in any of the bodies involved - just a citizen of the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,971 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Riverston wrote: »
    The original premise of this post isnt necessarily about this specific terminus, although it is the catalyst for the enquiries and investigates we have gone through. My main point is that DB have yet to prove to the residents that the required authorisation they must obtain by the current proceedural rules, and that if it hasnt actually been given for the location they have positioned this stop, then how many more stops around the city have been erected without it either.

    As regards our own issue, the road you mention is part of the estate, is not the through road between Ballyowen and Fonthill. There are two other roads, north and south of Balgaddy Rd, one is a brand new stretch of road build alongside the proposed Clonburris siting which is completely underused, bringing you from the Adamstown roundabout to the Fonthill Road in a much quicker time than it would take trying to negotiate the speed ramps and Archbishops Ryan School leading up to the Millenium Church. It is also surrounded by houses, is already used by 2 other frequent routes and is completely unsuitable to have double decker vehicles sitting for up to 25 minutes each and every hour, forcing traffic to drive around the 'bubbled' white broken line in the middle of the road. SDCC have already admitted that they dont have the funds to build a parking bay, which quite frankly is not the solution. This would only bring the bus several feet closer to the houses in one part of the estate that are already suffering from the noise, air and vibrational pollutants from buses 10 feet from their doors right now.

    I completely agree concerning the kids, that you cant legislate for them doing the right thing all the time. But at the moment when they are let off by school coaches at the Foxborough Estate stop there is no safe place for them to cross between thes stop and the current terminus. No lights, no zebra crossing, no traffic wardens. Of course they are going to run across trying to catch a sitting bus cause they feel its going to drive off. Our suggestion at least gives them the option of crossing at the lights. In fact it gives them the opportunity to get off at one stop early, outside the Moyglass estate, and since you seem to know the area, then the whole traffic lights/island system thats on that junction would be much more convenient and easier to use for them. Putting up barriers is a nonstarter, and not needed.

    Im not sure whether you have a vested interest in the status quo, or in any of the connected parties to this particular issue, your knowledge of the area suggests you are not too far from it, but your reasonings to argue against moving a terminus to one stop on, 100 yards from its current position onto an immeasurably more beneficial spot also suggests that you may have an alterior motive to question the residents,...I dont know. If you actually lived here and were subjected to your walls vibrating at 11 O'Clock at night, your kids being woken from engines running, traffic being held up for no reason other than a resting spot for a bus, watching foolish kids rushing across a road to catch said bus, cyclists nearly being trapped between buses and nervous drivers trying to overtake them, then maybe you would question the sanity of people in authority of a semi state body, that are answerable to none but themselves, even after seeing the potential cathastrophy with their own eyes.

    But as I want to reiterate again, as much as our problem is a major one for us, and one we are dealing with in the best way we can, I am encouraging each and every person around Dublin who has a similar story concerning Dublin Bus, to write and request, copy documentation from the NTA, Dublin Bus and the Garda Traffic Division of the certificate of Authorisation and extract for the positioning of whatever stop you have a problem with, and then question your County Council on whether they have examined this documentation prior to proceeding with road markings or alterations. Id be intersted to see just how many people discover that their stop was installed without the correct proceedures being done.

    I am sorry, but from a practical perspective Balgaddy Road is a through route no matter how you paint it - it is not a quiet residential road. One glance at it in the mornings will tell anyone that. It is used by people to travel across from Ballyowen to Fonthill.

    While I have sympathy with you regarding the schoolchildren - I would have to say that is not the fault/responsibility of Dublin Bus. That sounds to me far more like a problem for the coach operator (wherever they are dropping the children) and the local council (with regard to safe crossing points). Why don't they set them down at the 151 stop rather than forcing them to cross the road in the first place?

    And I'd have to say that if everyone in the city objected to bus noise at termini, there would be no termini anywhere or any bus routes going remotely near housing estates! There are numerous routes that have termini actually in estates, something the 151 is not.

    At the end of the day, while the bus is at the terminus, I agree that the engine should be switched off until the driver is ready to depart - at that point the engine is going to have to be switched on while he loads up.

    I would still think a half-width bay is the solution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭ KD345


    For anybody unfamiliar with the road, this is it

    I think there is nothing wrong with this location as a bus terminus. It's a straight piece of road following a roundabout. If drivers maintain a safe speed there should be no issue. If you wanted a change to happen, I think the simple solution here would be to install a bus bay. This would take the bus in slightly off the road.

    The 25a and 25b also serve this road, in fact, it was the residents of Foxborough who requested such a high frequency service. If a kid runs "from one bus to another" they will do this regardless if it's a bus terminus or not. There are pedestrian lights at the top of this road which could easily be used too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭✭✭ WBrazel


    The terminus in question, or at least the set down stop before it, is shown on this page, 7th photo down.

    [HTML]http://www.dublinbusstuff.com/NetworkDirect1c/NetworkDirectPhase1c.html[/HTML]

    I agree with lxflyer, a slight pull in might just make things slightly easier, but at the end of the day, though not a residential road, it is a residential area, and with enough care from passing motorists, I don't think the bus causes that much of an obstacle. Further up the lines are redrawn to have the bus stop and a passing traffic area, with a norrower nearer (to the photographer) lane.

    As for passing traffic, I have lived in houses where the largest 100 seater tri-axel buses went by my bedroom window (about 3 feet away) 18 hours a day at 10min frequencies. And the whole house vibrated. You get used to it, and the bus service is one of the many great benefits of living in a city.

    As for the orbital ring road, the plans for that have been around for years and years. Hence nothing was built along its path. If you're so concerned about planning and such, a quick check at a few development plans at the time would have saved you the trouble of buying a house near the then planned orbital ring road.

    Putting a terminus on a major road, where cars are overtaking at speed is not a safe thing. You only have to look at Police Camera Action shows to see how long dwell stationary traffic on a fast moving road can prove to be dangerous. Also I still don't see where the bus turns around. Does it still loop at the roundabout in Foxborough?? A slight recess in the footpath would solve most problems. But I'm not entirely convinced it is the most needed infrastructure in a limited SDCC budget.

    Traffic management and engineers hate straight sections of roads, where kessel kerbing and other expensive infrastructure could be installed. I should know... Of course they will side with you, more money. Recently traffic engineers updated the bus lane on the North Strand Road to put in filter lights for left turning traffic, which now block the main flow of the bus lane. This can be up to 2mins at a time, no joke, as the rest of the traffic is free to go. But having known many of those who specialised as traffic engineers during my time in university, I don't know why I would have expected any different.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I am sorry, but from a practical perspective Balgaddy Road is a through route no matter how you paint it - it is not a quiet residential road. One glance at it in the mornings will tell anyone that. It is used by people to travel across from Ballyowen to Fonthill.

    While I have sympathy with you regarding the schoolchildren - I would have to say that is not the fault/responsibility of Dublin Bus. That sounds to me far more like a problem for the coach operator (wherever they are dropping the children) and the local council (with regard to safe crossing points). Why don't they set them down at the 151 stop rather than forcing them to cross the road in the first place?

    And I'd have to say that if everyone in the city objected to bus noise at termini, there would be no termini anywhere or any bus routes going remotely near housing estates! There are numerous routes that have termini actually in estates, something the 151 is not.

    At the end of the day, while the bus is at the terminus, I agree that the engine should be switched off until the driver is ready to depart - at that point the engine is going to have to be switched on while he loads up.

    I would still think a half-width bay is the solution.

    Balgaddy Rd is one of three routes that connects the outer ring road/BallyOwen Rd to the Fonthill Rd. And its also the most awkward one, with Speed ramps and a school to navigate up by Archbishop Ryan. The Colthurst/Abbeydale road only has roundabouts and no ramps whereas the brand new link road from the Adamstown Roundabout is the shortest, straightest, quickest route for any vehicle to use, and has a slip road for traffic turning left back up towards Liffey Valley. So from your 'practical perspective', the only traffic that would remotely consider using the Balgaddy Road as a quicker through way, would be the residents of Foxborough/Buirg an Ri and Meile an Ri. I dont understand why you would believe its in any other road users interest or to be caught by the ramps, school traffic, roundabouts and lights even before they hit the Fonthill Road.

    However, these arguments that Im reading are secondary to the main issue Im refering to. We can argue and debate about the effective positioning and indeed repositioning of the stop on here; those that do not have to live beside it will feel we are NIMBY's, which we are not, and Ive explained why; those who have argued for its retention have not given good enough reason why it shouldnt be moved around the corner, that what precisely is the downside for putting parents' minds at ease, making life easier for cyclists and motorists, for closing the door before the horse bolts? Like everything else in this country, the ability to be able to stand back and look at the bigger picture seems to be a trait missing when dealing with issues, to focus on one point to the exclusion of all others is a skill which the Irish would win Gold medals at if it were an Olympic Sport. No wonder we're in the manure as deep as we are when the common sense approach is dismissed out of hand without a clear understanding of the overall issues involved and a general empathy for the wellbeing of the majority over such a minor minor point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,374 ✭✭✭✭ foggy_lad


    If the residents feel so strongly about it they should protest otherwise nothing will be done. They will have to take the time to get out onto the road with banners and let people see they mean business.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    KD345 wrote: »
    For anybody unfamiliar with the road, this is it

    I think there is nothing wrong with this location as a bus terminus. It's a straight piece of road following a roundabout. If drivers maintain a safe speed there should be no issue. If you wanted a change to happen, I think the simple solution here would be to install a bus bay. This would take the bus in slightly off the road.

    The 25a and 25b also serve this road, in fact, it was the residents of Foxborough who requested such a high frequency service. If a kid runs "from one bus to another" they will do this regardless if it's a bus terminus or not. There are pedestrian lights at the top of this road which could easily be used too.

    We dont want a bus bay, and once again I feel like I have to clarify a point which seems to be getting lost in all the back and forth. We're not objecting to the stop. We dont care if the stop remains. We are quite happy for the stop to remain. The stop does not bother us. There is already two other stops on this stretch of road. The residents of Foxborough arent concerned with removing the stop. All we have asked for is for the terminus to be pushed on one stop. Thats all. Nothing else. To a place that has no houses. To a place where only one bus goes. At a position where only one bus stops. No other bus in the fleet stops there. Not even to a place where there are multiple buses. A wide road with a well serviced traffic light/island system. Away from houses.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dublin&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=50.37814,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Dublin,+County+Fingal,+Ireland&layer=c&cbll=53.340259,-6.428617&panoid=v2-Psp_FOIpxEKlVxaDtJg&cbp=12,180,,0,5&ll=53.340259,-6.428617&spn=0,0.002401&z=19
    To date noone has given me a good enough reason why the above is a worse position with a greater risk potential than its current risky inconvenient location.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    If the residents feel so strongly about it they should protest otherwise nothing will be done. They will have to take the time to get out onto the road with banners and let people see they mean business.

    We are protesting, and have two court cases coming up.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    What exactly is the issue with the current location?

    The larger roads in the area with higher speeds, bus lanes and cycle lanes are less suitable, not more suitable.

    If there are safety issues, bus bays and a pedestrian crossing, set to react quickly, could be installed.

    If the noise is the main issue, then bus drivers should be made to switch off engines. Bus routes can't all end away from houses, it's not realistic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭ markpb


    Riverston wrote: »
    All we have asked for is for the terminus to be pushed on one stop. Thats all. Nothing else. To a place that has no houses. To a place where only one bus goes. At a position where only one bus stops.

    I'm not familiar with the area so I can't judge either of them but it's worth bearing in mind that not all bus lanes are built solely for buses - often they form emergency routes to/from hospitals, fire stations or garda stations. Putting a bus terminus in a bus lane is very dangerous from that point of view.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭ KD345


    The initial post complained that children were running from one bus to the next. This would still happen whether this was a regular bus stop, or the final bus stop. Even if the 151 was to move to the next stop, the 25a and 25b still serve this stop, so that problem remains.
    But at the moment when they are let off by school coaches at the Foxborough Estate stop there is no safe place for them to cross between thes stop and the current terminus. No lights, no zebra crossing, no traffic wardens.

    Can this school bus not just let the children off at the stop you're suggesting?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    monument wrote: »
    What exactly is the issue with the current location?

    The larger roads in the area with higher speeds, bus lanes and cycle lanes are less suitable, not more suitable.

    If there are safety issues, bus bays and pedestrian crossing, set to react quickly, could be installed.

    If the noise is the main issue, then bus drivers should be made to switch off engines. Bus routes can't all end away from houses, it's not realistic.

    Its a combination monument. I think Ive outlined the more major ones throughout my posts, so I'll refrain from further repeating our issues if you dont mind. Apart from the fact that there seems to be little in the way of support for our stance, this thread has gone off the topic we wanted to raise.

    I know there are other residents throughout the city fighting the impositions of Dublin Bus, and I understand that not all routes can end away from houses. However thats not our point. We have found a deficiency in the way the system is supposed to work, and trying to avail of that to further our case. We are happy to share this discovery with any other group around Dublin who have also been treated with the kind of contempt we have been subjected to. If we can give these groups another avenue to fight on, or at least bring DB back to their negotiations then we will be happy. Without sounding too flippant to everyone else around the city, we have a particular problem, we have found a solution to the benefit all of parties on both sides, without cost, without any inconvenience, without putting anybody out in anyway, we have engaged in a reasonable way by the admission of all we have spoken too, yet DB remain alone in their intransigent in their stance. And then to discover that anything DB asks for is barely looked at by NTA, given near blanket approval by Dublin Castle and local Council dont even have a paper file. And as for asking DB for anything, well, you'd be quicker getting cooperation from Colonel Gadaffi. They are subject to no regulatory body, no second level of scruitiny, their decisions are adjuicated on by themselves, neither the Ombudsman, the Dept of Transport, The National Safety Authority, the EPA, the local County Councils, Garda Transportation Office, NTA or the Office of the FOI can challenge their findings and are unwilling to do so in any case from what we have learnt. So what are are chances of success?....probably very slim when the organisation who are deciding on the issue at hand is the same organisation you are fighting against. If you were a travel agent, broker, telecommunications company, energy company, or in just about any number of public or private industries in this country you'd be subject to a regulator or ombudsman or both if the public had a complaint about you, yet DB are an island in this sea of control. Doesnt seem right to me.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Riverston


    markpb wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with the area so I can't judge either of them but it's worth bearing in mind that not all bus lanes are built solely for buses - often they form emergency routes to/from hospitals, fire stations or garda stations. Putting a bus terminus in a bus lane is very dangerous from that point of view.

    Fair point and as you say you are not aware of the area. Nearest hospital and Fire Station is Tallaght at least 8 miles away. Nearest Garda station Ronanstown less than 2 probably. However neither would be effected by the repositioning. In fact, moving the terminus would probably cut out any potential access problems. The Outer Ring Road itself is utterly underused. Senior officials within SDCC have commented that the road is carrying a fraction of the potential it can. At its current useage maximum it is still only at 40% capacity according to our sources. The bus lane itself is nearly two car widths wide alone, with a further lane beside it again. And then the same on the other side of the road going in the other direction. (see the amended link above)


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