Wexford has a bigger population than Waterford

jayboi

Wexford 131,749
waterford 106,530

When did this happen?

What else havent you people told me?

dayshah

By population we are the smallest county in Munster, and only 20th largest of the 32 counties.
Waterford is really only the 7th biggest city (remember Belfast and Derry) in Ireland (8th if you include Craigavon).

Think of it, other than Waterford we have no major population centres (neither Tramore nor Dungarvan are major). We have a small land area, and a huge chunk of that is the Comeraghs, which are largely uninhabited.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

By population we are the smallest county in Munster, and only 20th largest of the 32 counties.
Waterford is really only the 7th biggest city (remember Belfast and Derry) in Ireland (8th if you include Craigavon).

Think of it, other than Waterford we have no major population centres (neither Tramore nor Dungarvan are major). We have a small land area, and a huge chunk of that is the Comeraghs, which are largely uninhabited.

Craigavon itself is only 12,500, according the Wikipedia. The urban area including the towns Craigavon Centre, Brownlow, Lurgan, Portadown, Waringstown and Bleary is over 90,000.

Waterford might be 7th on the island in terms of population, but cities at places 4-7th are all between 50,000 and 100,000, so there's not much in it. Ultimately, with the exception of the two capitals, the other cities are basically regional capitals of comparable size, except for Cork which is that bit bigger.

Co. Waterford is half mountains, which accounts for the low population. By Irish standards, second and third town of 10,000 (Tramore) and 8,500 (Dungarvan) are respectable. Some county towns are smaller than both.

Not really sure what your point is.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Craigavon itself is only 12,500, according the Wikipedia. The urban area including the towns Craigavon Centre, Brownlow, Lurgan, Portadown, Waringstown and Bleary is over 90,000.

Waterford might be 7th on the island in terms of population, but cities at places 4-7th are all between 50,000 and 100,000, so there's not much in it. Ultimately, with the exception of the two capitals, the other cities are basically regional capitals of comparable size, except for Cork which is that bit bigger.

Co. Waterford is half mountains, which accounts for the low population. By Irish standards, second and third town of 10,000 (Tramore) and 8,500 (Dungarvan) are respectable. Some county towns are smaller than both.

Not really sure what your point is.

I don't consider Craigavon a real city either.

City-wise we are fairly comparable to Galway or Limerick, though Limerick has Ennis nearby.
By major urban centres I'm thinking of places like Kilkenny (almost 30,000), Tralee (20,000) or Ennis (25,000).

Another part of our problem is our hinterland includes mountains and the sea, though every city except Belfast has the sea as their hinterland.

My point is just that we sometime exaggerate our own importance.

seanybiker

It's ok lads. We have blaas and they don't.

Guramoogah

jayboi wrote: »

Wexford 131,749
waterford 106,530

When did this happen?

What else havent you people told me?

As you've posted this in the Waterford City section, I presume that you're comparing Wexford Town with Waterford City. If this is so, then your figures are incorrect. Source, please?

road_high

Wexford is a big county area wise, biggest in Leinster and it's population exploded (much more so thean KK or Carlow) particularly the north of the county during the Celtic Tiger years.

Funfair

Wexford has more nick knacks then Waterford grant you that....

Typhoon.

constituency size is based on the 2006 census I think

Limerick city has a small population but this is because the borough boundary is very small

you'd be amazed how the urban centres add to a county population......look at louth 111,000 people

BlaasForRafa

Funfair wrote: »

Wexford has more nick knacks then Waterford grant you that....

And they have way more strawberries, potatoes and people with wheels on their houses...

Bards

Result of the Celtic Tiger Years. Most of North Wexfod (Gorey etc) is made up of Dubs who moved there due to the inflated House Prices of the 2000's in the capital.

Wexford made disastouous Over-Planning decisions with no amenities for its new inhabitants

wmpdd3

Gorey is massive, its double the size it was 10 years ago.

WexfordWarrior

wexford has rissoles...and waterford doesnt ! you can keep your blaa's...a load of flour in your mouth ...

as far as i know the last time i checked wexford town and surrounding areas had a populatin of about 46-48,000 ...... waterford had about 55,000 i think ...

the town itself was about 20,000 and kilkenny is about 22,000 ... waterford city itself would probably be bigger than both but i dont know by how much.

im open to correction also.

Speak Now

Also what the figures wouldn't show is the amount of people that say they live in Waterford city but would show up in the census as County Killkenny.

old gregg

time for all you young folks to start rutting like crazy or we'll disappear completely

gscully

We're having banter with Wexford now??

Has our importance dropped THAT much?

merlante

Guestimates of populations are usually pretty off the wall, and totally unnecessary, given this glorious thing called the census!

Preliminary 2011 results are here (DEDs here). Unfortunately, the preliminary results only have the populations of areas within defined boundaries, so there are no city or town populations per se, just the populations that might happen to within the boundary of a city council or a town's main DED (district electoral division). What most people are interested in is the actually true size of the urban areas in question, but we won't have those till next April probably. Unfortunately, sources like the Irish Times use these preliminary figures to make stupid statements about Cork and Limerick declining or Galway being larger than Limerick, which hasn't been the case and probably isn't the case now either.

However, what you can do is look at the DEDs that were considered part of the suburbs of towns and cities last time out and see if those populations have increased. If they have increased, the chances are the increase has occurred within the part that will be added to the city or town. This is still only an indication, because the CSO will basically use some kind of formula to work out the extent of the urban areas and may add in areas that were previously considered just beyond the reach of the city/town because another housing estate or two has linked them up.

Interestingly, Waterford appears to have grown strongly, despite the recession kicking in. A comparison with Galway is interesting:

From the preliminary results of cities within boundaries:
Waterford 46,747 +2.2%
Galway 75,414 +4.1%

However, if you take into account that virtually 100% of Galway city is within it's city boundary but that nearly 10% of Waterford city is within the suburbs in Co. Kilkenny, and looking at the areas that were considering suburbs last time around, you get something like:
Waterford 51,550 +4.7%
Galway 75,800 +4.2%
(Lots of people moving to the DED of Kilculliheen in Co. Kilkenny, increased from 3,493 to 4,811.)

I leave it to the reader to do similar exercises for Kilkenny, etc., if you too are trying to avoid doing real work.

But, last time out in the south east (2006)...
Waterford 49,213
Kilkenny 22,179
Carlow 20,724
Wexford 18,183
Clonmel 17,008
with Tramore and Enniscorthy coming in just under 10,000.

You could probably add about 2K on to Kilkenny, Carlow and Wexford this time, and 1K-1.5K on to Clonmel, Enniscorthy and Tramore.

few cans?

... does it really matter?

linny

But, last time out in the south east (2006)...
Waterford 49,213
Kilkenny 22,179
Carlow 20,724
Wexford 18,183
Clonmel 17,008
with Tramore and Enniscorthy coming in just under 10,000.



As of the 2006 census the population of Kilkenny City is 22,179 and including the "aggregate town area" is 30,942.

and probably carlow, wexford and clonmel are the same

merlante

linny wrote: »

But, last time out in the south east (2006)...
Waterford 49,213
Kilkenny 22,179
Carlow 20,724
Wexford 18,183
Clonmel 17,008
with Tramore and Enniscorthy coming in just under 10,000.



As of the 2006 census the population of Kilkenny City is 22,179 and including the "aggregate town area" is 30,942.

and probably carlow, wexford and clonmel are the same

Hmm... "aggregate town area" means the population of all urban areas within a county added together. That 30,942 is Kilkenny (22,179), plus a bunch of little towns and villages plus... the northern suburbs of Waterford! (~4,800)

So 15.5% of urban Co. Kilkenny is actually Waterford.

linny

merlante wrote: »

Hmm... "aggregate town area" means the population of all urban areas within a county added together. That 30,942 is Kilkenny (22,179), plus a bunch of little towns and villages plus... the northern suburbs of Waterford! (~4,800)

So 15.5% of urban Co. Kilkenny is actually Waterford.

An aggregate (noun) is the sum or whole amount. To aggregate (verb) is to collect or amount together.

ie, all of the suburb's around kilkenny city not just the city limits itself
kilkenny city 22,179 and kilkenny's suburbs make up the rest, my reckoning;)

merlante

linny wrote: »

An aggregate (noun) is the sum or whole amount. To aggregate (verb) is to collect or amount together.

ie, all of the suburb's around kilkenny city not just the city limits itself
kilkenny city 22,179 and kilkenny's suburbs make up the rest, my reckoning;)

Your interpretation of that figure is not correct. Go to p.19 of Census 2006 - Areas. You'll see that figure in "Table 3 Persons, males and females in the Aggregate Town and Aggregate Rural Areas of each Province, County and City and percentage of population in the Aggregate Town Area, 2006". The figure you quoted is the number of people living in each county that are living in urban areas, in this case Kilkenny. That's *all* urban areas within the county, not just any particular urban area.

The population of 30,942 for Kilkenny covers Kilkenny and environs, as well as Thomastown, Mullinavat, Ballyhale, Inistioge and a hundred other Co. Kilkenny villages (above a certain population density), and the suburbs of Waterford city located within Co. Kilkenny.

Also note that Kildare is 122,016, larger than Waterford and Kilkenny put together, not because Kildare town is very big but because there are quite a number of towns in the county, such of them quite large, such as Naas, Newbridge, Cellbridge, Maynooth, Kildare, Sallins, Leixlip, Kilcullen, Athy, etc., which together add up to 122K of population. These aggregate figures are used basically to calculate the urban-rural split in each county and for the country as a whole.

Kilkenny, the city/town, itself plus all suburbs, environs, etc., amounted to 22,179 in 2006. No more, no less. That is the fullest extent of the urban area as recognised by the CSO. It is the only basis we have for comparing the relative sizes of urban areas. The actually population of Kilkenny Borough itself was only 8,661, so most of the 22,179 is Kilkenny suburbs. However, Kilkenny since secured a boundary extension.

jayboi

Any idea how its shaping up county wise?

fuzzy dunlop

This just highlights the inefficiency of the system of local government based on the counties. As usual people will look at the nominal “county” population figures and fail to see the bigger picture here. Unfortunately this will include the media, the civil service and local TD’s.

The big story is the region has a population just shy of half a million (497000).This is important because although not the highest growth rate it is probably due more to natural growth than the Midlands and Border region which form part of Dublin’s commuter belt. The fact that the South East has now half a million people will probably make it the densest region population wise outside the so-called Greater Dublin Area and the largest population wise ouside the GDA and South West (Cork/Kerry). Also remember the excuse the last government especially Mícheal Martin continued to give to deny services like Radiotherapy was that best practice dictated that such services could only be provided in regions of more than 500000 people. (Is that goal posts I hear moving!)

The nominal population of Couny Wexford is larger than Waterford however the population density is slightly higher for Waterford but this itself is not that significant for the following reasons; East County Waterford i.e the City and Tramore and Environs probably has over 70% of the population of County Waterford. The Wateford No.2 rural area which is confusingly the name of the Local Electoral Division in South Kilkenny (so called because it is next to Waterford.) has a population growth of 14.6% to 21611 .Nearly 30% of Kilkennys population increase is in a relatively small area next to Waterford City.The Waterford No. 2 rural area which is approximately between Waterford and Tramore has growth of 7.8% to 15175. I don’t have the figures at hand but there was also huge growth around New Ross rural area around 22000.I didn’t check Carrick. What this means is Waterford is still the main centre of population growth in the region. The demographic core of the region is still Waterford and its environs.

I think Waterford and the South East has done exceptionally well considering the last government’s complete neglect of its own spatial strategy by allowing population dispersal from Dublin across the Midlands. Urban Waterford now exceeds 50000 people, which for those who care now makes it a city by EU standards. The City growth rate for the last five years I think is the same as Galway, which may mean growth in that city is moderating. It also means that the populations of the to cities when environs are considered is comparable which important. So rather than overstating our own importance as was dubiously stated previously I think the census results show we are still well in the game.

dayshah

You tell 'im merlante!!!

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

The fact that the South East has now half a million people will probably make it the densest region population wise outside the so-called Greater Dublin Area and the largest population wise ouside the GDA and South West (Cork/Kerry).

My hole. Just look at the population density map. We are not as bad as the BMW regions, but we are not a densely populated area. Apart from Tramore the nearest decent sized town is Dungarvan or Kilkenny, and Dungarvan is more in Cork's catchment area than ours.

fuzzy dunlop

dayshah wrote: »

You tell 'im merlante!!!



My hole. Just look at the population density map. We are not as bad as the BMW regions, but we are not a densely populated area. Apart from Tramore the nearest decent sized town is Dungarvan or Kilkenny, and Dungarvan is more in Cork's catchment area than ours.

I knew you would be the first to refute my post.

Dungarvan isn't in Corks catchment area.If you think it is have the courtesy to post some evidence. Everything I have said is backed up with empirical evidence.
http://www.iro.ie/south_west_authority.html

The above links shows what I said is true and the latest census closes the gap between us and the South West.

dayshah

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I knew you would be the first to refute my post.

Dungarvan isn't in Corks catchment area.If you think it is have the courtesy to post some evidence. Everything I have said is backed up with empirical evidence.
http://www.iro.ie/south_west_authority.html

The above links shows what I said is true and the latest census closes the gap between us and the South West.

Empirical evidence? More like pipe dreams.

From Dungarvan it only takes about 15 more minutes to get to Cork than to Waterford. Just ask Dungarvan people where they go to buy clothes when they go somewhere for a day out.

Gorey is as close to Dublin as to Waterford. As the crow flies much of Wexford is close to Waterford, but with the exception of the passage east car ferry, all that traffic has to come to New Ross. Carlow town is in the middle too, so gravity effects mean the people there are drawn to Dublin.

You said its silly to have local government based on counties, but its even more silly to have it based on these 'regions'.

As for your 'empirical evidence', you say the South East is the densest populated. Let ignore the arbitrary nature of the regions, and inappropriateness of their catchment areas. From your source the South East Region has a higher density than the BMW regions and the Mid-West, areas that are amongst the least densely populated in Western Europe.

So when the government is making decisions about Radiotherapy it should consider the catchment area of Waterford, not some arbitrary region. North Wexford is even considered part of the commuter belt of Dublin now. So why should someone from Gorey or Carlow prefer to come to WRH over Dublin, why would someone from Lismore prefer to go to WRH over Cork, why would someone in Tipperary Town prefer to go to WRH over Limerick?

Sure I'd like to have all these services, but we'll only be laughed at if we base our arguments on current 'population density' when the evidence is so clearly against us.





Page 7 of this has the latest population density map.
http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/Commentary%20part%201.pdf

chelloveks

This post proves the point tHat you can make statistics say whatever you want them to say to fit your needs! There's two sides to every arse!

fuzzy dunlop

dayshah wrote: »

Empirical evidence? More like pipe dreams.

No just hard evidence which I know is hard for you to deal with.

dayshah wrote: »

From Dungarvan it only takes about 15 more minutes to get to Cork than to Waterford. Just ask Dungarvan people where they go to buy clothes when they go somewhere for a day out.

You obviously don't know where Dungarvan is or else your in the habit of driving around at 120mph in the middle of the night.

dayshah wrote: »

Gorey is as close to Dublin as to Waterford. As the crow flies much of Wexford is close to Waterford, but with the exception of the passage east car ferry, all that traffic has to come to New Ross. Carlow town is in the middle too, so gravity effects mean the people there are drawn to Dublin.

Gorey and Carlow is as close to Dublin but they are within the South East region.We're not talking about a shopping expedition we're talking about employment educational and medical services and in these cases Waterford is still easier to get to than anywhere in Dublin from both these places.

dayshah wrote: »

You said its silly to have local government based on counties, but its even more silly to have it based on these 'regions'.

No more Silly than the concept of County Cork or County Galway.

dayshah wrote: »

As for your 'empirical evidence', you say the South East is the densest populated. Let ignore the arbitrary nature of the regions, and inappropriateness of their catchment areas. From your source the South East Region has a higher density than the BMW regions and the Mid-West, areas that are amongst the least densely populated in Western Europe.
.

Let's not as they're not arbitrary.The South East has a higher density than the Border region,The Mid West,The West and is equal to the South West.

BTW it wasn't my source.It was the local regional authorities website which is an independent source.

dayshah wrote: »

So when the government is making decisions about Radiotherapy it should consider the catchment area of Waterford, not some arbitrary region. North Wexford is even considered part of the commuter belt of Dublin now. So why should someone from Gorey or Carlow prefer to come to WRH over Dublin, why would someone from Lismore prefer to go to WRH over Cork, why would someone in Tipperary Town prefer to go to WRH over Limerick?

The problem is their not "some arbitrary region" they are the regions defined by the government agencies for decades. Why would someone in Tralee or Charleville chose Cork over Limerick? Why would someone in Gorey or Carlow chose Waterford over Dublin?Ans: It's easier to get to than Dublin despite being equidistant.Ditto for Lismore and Cork. As for Tipperary town they would go to Limerick as it is in that region.Where did you say you were from again?;)

dayshah wrote: »

Sure I'd like to have all these services, but we'll only be laughed at if we base our arguments on current 'population density' when the evidence is so clearly against us.

The evidence is only "obviously against us" in your wildest fantasies.I understand why you would be worried about people laughing at you considering the pretence you are putting here thinking none of us can see through it:D

dayshah

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

No just hard evidence which I know is hard for you to deal with.

The (out of date) sources you referred to yourself don't back up your story and you ignore gravity effects. Gorey is a commuter town for Dublin, not Waterford. A line on a map doesn't determine where its better for them to get services.

Ever wonder why people from Carlow don't care if WIT gets university status?
Its because its just as easy for them to go to Dublin, and they have a choice of 3 universities and several ITs there.

You may convince yourself, and even the local TDs, that Waterford is the hub of some major region. Try convince the other 162 TDs of your baseless 'facts'.

fuzzy dunlop

dayshah wrote: »

The (out of date) sources you referred to yourself don't back up your story and you ignore gravity effects. Gorey is a commuter town for Dublin, not Waterford. A line on a map doesn't determine where its better for them to get services.

What are gravity effects? Do you even know? I know you think they do but you don't seem to realise that "Gravity effects" in the case of Dublin are something to be negated.You keep talking about this as if it means something signicant against Waterford's case but in fact it doesn't. Back it up with something other than some Op Ed piece you read in the Skibereen Eagle. Where people commute to doesn't matter a damn when it comes to getting specialist services. If the same things they need are on offer in Waterford then they will chose Waterford for the ease of access.Even if they don't 90% of the region will.

BTW here are the up to date sources (Page. 20) Depressing reading for you as it shows the South East is closing the already miniscule population density gap with the South West.

http://cso.ie/census/documents/Amended%20census2006_%20Volume%201%20Pop%20Classified%20by%20Area.pdf

dayshah wrote: »

Ever wonder why people from Carlow don't care if WIT gets university status?
Its because its just as easy for them to go to Dublin, and they have a choice of 3 universities and several ITs there..

Yes because gombeen politicians in Carlow are leading them up the Garden path into thinking that Carlow IT is in the same league as WIT.I know plenty of Carlow people and they have no adverse reaction to WIT being upgraded.I know plenty of Dungarvan people too and it's news to them that Cork is now the centre of their Universe.

dayshah wrote: »

You may convince yourself, and even the local TDs, that Waterford is the hub of some major region. Try convince the other 162 TDs of your baseless 'facts'.

Baseless Facts:D Only the last two censuses. You don't really like evidence do you? It must disapoint you a lot.Try reading chicken entrails it might offer you some hope.

I don't have to persuade 162 TD's. 162 TD's were never needed to make anything happen in this country. All you need is a large enough block. In any case your the one going to great lenghts to fight someone else's corner and thus convincing me of something despite not posting one iota of evidence.Strange that