Wexford has a bigger population than Waterford

jayboi

Wexford 131,749
waterford 106,530

When did this happen?

What else havent you people told me?

dayshah

By population we are the smallest county in Munster, and only 20th largest of the 32 counties.
Waterford is really only the 7th biggest city (remember Belfast and Derry) in Ireland (8th if you include Craigavon).

Think of it, other than Waterford we have no major population centres (neither Tramore nor Dungarvan are major). We have a small land area, and a huge chunk of that is the Comeraghs, which are largely uninhabited.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

By population we are the smallest county in Munster, and only 20th largest of the 32 counties.
Waterford is really only the 7th biggest city (remember Belfast and Derry) in Ireland (8th if you include Craigavon).

Think of it, other than Waterford we have no major population centres (neither Tramore nor Dungarvan are major). We have a small land area, and a huge chunk of that is the Comeraghs, which are largely uninhabited.

Craigavon itself is only 12,500, according the Wikipedia. The urban area including the towns Craigavon Centre, Brownlow, Lurgan, Portadown, Waringstown and Bleary is over 90,000.

Waterford might be 7th on the island in terms of population, but cities at places 4-7th are all between 50,000 and 100,000, so there's not much in it. Ultimately, with the exception of the two capitals, the other cities are basically regional capitals of comparable size, except for Cork which is that bit bigger.

Co. Waterford is half mountains, which accounts for the low population. By Irish standards, second and third town of 10,000 (Tramore) and 8,500 (Dungarvan) are respectable. Some county towns are smaller than both.

Not really sure what your point is.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Craigavon itself is only 12,500, according the Wikipedia. The urban area including the towns Craigavon Centre, Brownlow, Lurgan, Portadown, Waringstown and Bleary is over 90,000.

Waterford might be 7th on the island in terms of population, but cities at places 4-7th are all between 50,000 and 100,000, so there's not much in it. Ultimately, with the exception of the two capitals, the other cities are basically regional capitals of comparable size, except for Cork which is that bit bigger.

Co. Waterford is half mountains, which accounts for the low population. By Irish standards, second and third town of 10,000 (Tramore) and 8,500 (Dungarvan) are respectable. Some county towns are smaller than both.

Not really sure what your point is.

I don't consider Craigavon a real city either.

City-wise we are fairly comparable to Galway or Limerick, though Limerick has Ennis nearby.
By major urban centres I'm thinking of places like Kilkenny (almost 30,000), Tralee (20,000) or Ennis (25,000).

Another part of our problem is our hinterland includes mountains and the sea, though every city except Belfast has the sea as their hinterland.

My point is just that we sometime exaggerate our own importance.

seanybiker

It's ok lads. We have blaas and they don't.

Guramoogah

jayboi wrote: »

Wexford 131,749
waterford 106,530

When did this happen?

What else havent you people told me?

As you've posted this in the Waterford City section, I presume that you're comparing Wexford Town with Waterford City. If this is so, then your figures are incorrect. Source, please?

road_high

Wexford is a big county area wise, biggest in Leinster and it's population exploded (much more so thean KK or Carlow) particularly the north of the county during the Celtic Tiger years.

Funfair

Wexford has more nick knacks then Waterford grant you that....

Typhoon.

constituency size is based on the 2006 census I think

Limerick city has a small population but this is because the borough boundary is very small

you'd be amazed how the urban centres add to a county population......look at louth 111,000 people

BlaasForRafa

Funfair wrote: »

Wexford has more nick knacks then Waterford grant you that....

And they have way more strawberries, potatoes and people with wheels on their houses...

Bards

Result of the Celtic Tiger Years. Most of North Wexfod (Gorey etc) is made up of Dubs who moved there due to the inflated House Prices of the 2000's in the capital.

Wexford made disastouous Over-Planning decisions with no amenities for its new inhabitants

wmpdd3

Gorey is massive, its double the size it was 10 years ago.

WexfordWarrior

wexford has rissoles...and waterford doesnt ! you can keep your blaa's...a load of flour in your mouth ...

as far as i know the last time i checked wexford town and surrounding areas had a populatin of about 46-48,000 ...... waterford had about 55,000 i think ...

the town itself was about 20,000 and kilkenny is about 22,000 ... waterford city itself would probably be bigger than both but i dont know by how much.

im open to correction also.

Speak Now

Also what the figures wouldn't show is the amount of people that say they live in Waterford city but would show up in the census as County Killkenny.

old gregg

time for all you young folks to start rutting like crazy or we'll disappear completely

gscully

We're having banter with Wexford now??

Has our importance dropped THAT much?

merlante

Guestimates of populations are usually pretty off the wall, and totally unnecessary, given this glorious thing called the census!

Preliminary 2011 results are here (DEDs here). Unfortunately, the preliminary results only have the populations of areas within defined boundaries, so there are no city or town populations per se, just the populations that might happen to within the boundary of a city council or a town's main DED (district electoral division). What most people are interested in is the actually true size of the urban areas in question, but we won't have those till next April probably. Unfortunately, sources like the Irish Times use these preliminary figures to make stupid statements about Cork and Limerick declining or Galway being larger than Limerick, which hasn't been the case and probably isn't the case now either.

However, what you can do is look at the DEDs that were considered part of the suburbs of towns and cities last time out and see if those populations have increased. If they have increased, the chances are the increase has occurred within the part that will be added to the city or town. This is still only an indication, because the CSO will basically use some kind of formula to work out the extent of the urban areas and may add in areas that were previously considered just beyond the reach of the city/town because another housing estate or two has linked them up.

Interestingly, Waterford appears to have grown strongly, despite the recession kicking in. A comparison with Galway is interesting:

From the preliminary results of cities within boundaries:
Waterford 46,747 +2.2%
Galway 75,414 +4.1%

However, if you take into account that virtually 100% of Galway city is within it's city boundary but that nearly 10% of Waterford city is within the suburbs in Co. Kilkenny, and looking at the areas that were considering suburbs last time around, you get something like:
Waterford 51,550 +4.7%
Galway 75,800 +4.2%
(Lots of people moving to the DED of Kilculliheen in Co. Kilkenny, increased from 3,493 to 4,811.)

I leave it to the reader to do similar exercises for Kilkenny, etc., if you too are trying to avoid doing real work.

But, last time out in the south east (2006)...
Waterford 49,213
Kilkenny 22,179
Carlow 20,724
Wexford 18,183
Clonmel 17,008
with Tramore and Enniscorthy coming in just under 10,000.

You could probably add about 2K on to Kilkenny, Carlow and Wexford this time, and 1K-1.5K on to Clonmel, Enniscorthy and Tramore.

few cans?

... does it really matter?

linny

But, last time out in the south east (2006)...
Waterford 49,213
Kilkenny 22,179
Carlow 20,724
Wexford 18,183
Clonmel 17,008
with Tramore and Enniscorthy coming in just under 10,000.



As of the 2006 census the population of Kilkenny City is 22,179 and including the "aggregate town area" is 30,942.

and probably carlow, wexford and clonmel are the same

merlante

linny wrote: »

But, last time out in the south east (2006)...
Waterford 49,213
Kilkenny 22,179
Carlow 20,724
Wexford 18,183
Clonmel 17,008
with Tramore and Enniscorthy coming in just under 10,000.



As of the 2006 census the population of Kilkenny City is 22,179 and including the "aggregate town area" is 30,942.

and probably carlow, wexford and clonmel are the same

Hmm... "aggregate town area" means the population of all urban areas within a county added together. That 30,942 is Kilkenny (22,179), plus a bunch of little towns and villages plus... the northern suburbs of Waterford! (~4,800)

So 15.5% of urban Co. Kilkenny is actually Waterford.

linny

merlante wrote: »

Hmm... "aggregate town area" means the population of all urban areas within a county added together. That 30,942 is Kilkenny (22,179), plus a bunch of little towns and villages plus... the northern suburbs of Waterford! (~4,800)

So 15.5% of urban Co. Kilkenny is actually Waterford.

An aggregate (noun) is the sum or whole amount. To aggregate (verb) is to collect or amount together.

ie, all of the suburb's around kilkenny city not just the city limits itself
kilkenny city 22,179 and kilkenny's suburbs make up the rest, my reckoning;)

merlante

linny wrote: »

An aggregate (noun) is the sum or whole amount. To aggregate (verb) is to collect or amount together.

ie, all of the suburb's around kilkenny city not just the city limits itself
kilkenny city 22,179 and kilkenny's suburbs make up the rest, my reckoning;)

Your interpretation of that figure is not correct. Go to p.19 of Census 2006 - Areas. You'll see that figure in "Table 3 Persons, males and females in the Aggregate Town and Aggregate Rural Areas of each Province, County and City and percentage of population in the Aggregate Town Area, 2006". The figure you quoted is the number of people living in each county that are living in urban areas, in this case Kilkenny. That's *all* urban areas within the county, not just any particular urban area.

The population of 30,942 for Kilkenny covers Kilkenny and environs, as well as Thomastown, Mullinavat, Ballyhale, Inistioge and a hundred other Co. Kilkenny villages (above a certain population density), and the suburbs of Waterford city located within Co. Kilkenny.

Also note that Kildare is 122,016, larger than Waterford and Kilkenny put together, not because Kildare town is very big but because there are quite a number of towns in the county, such of them quite large, such as Naas, Newbridge, Cellbridge, Maynooth, Kildare, Sallins, Leixlip, Kilcullen, Athy, etc., which together add up to 122K of population. These aggregate figures are used basically to calculate the urban-rural split in each county and for the country as a whole.

Kilkenny, the city/town, itself plus all suburbs, environs, etc., amounted to 22,179 in 2006. No more, no less. That is the fullest extent of the urban area as recognised by the CSO. It is the only basis we have for comparing the relative sizes of urban areas. The actually population of Kilkenny Borough itself was only 8,661, so most of the 22,179 is Kilkenny suburbs. However, Kilkenny since secured a boundary extension.

jayboi

Any idea how its shaping up county wise?

fuzzy dunlop

This just highlights the inefficiency of the system of local government based on the counties. As usual people will look at the nominal “county” population figures and fail to see the bigger picture here. Unfortunately this will include the media, the civil service and local TD’s.

The big story is the region has a population just shy of half a million (497000).This is important because although not the highest growth rate it is probably due more to natural growth than the Midlands and Border region which form part of Dublin’s commuter belt. The fact that the South East has now half a million people will probably make it the densest region population wise outside the so-called Greater Dublin Area and the largest population wise ouside the GDA and South West (Cork/Kerry). Also remember the excuse the last government especially Mícheal Martin continued to give to deny services like Radiotherapy was that best practice dictated that such services could only be provided in regions of more than 500000 people. (Is that goal posts I hear moving!)

The nominal population of Couny Wexford is larger than Waterford however the population density is slightly higher for Waterford but this itself is not that significant for the following reasons; East County Waterford i.e the City and Tramore and Environs probably has over 70% of the population of County Waterford. The Wateford No.2 rural area which is confusingly the name of the Local Electoral Division in South Kilkenny (so called because it is next to Waterford.) has a population growth of 14.6% to 21611 .Nearly 30% of Kilkennys population increase is in a relatively small area next to Waterford City.The Waterford No. 2 rural area which is approximately between Waterford and Tramore has growth of 7.8% to 15175. I don’t have the figures at hand but there was also huge growth around New Ross rural area around 22000.I didn’t check Carrick. What this means is Waterford is still the main centre of population growth in the region. The demographic core of the region is still Waterford and its environs.

I think Waterford and the South East has done exceptionally well considering the last government’s complete neglect of its own spatial strategy by allowing population dispersal from Dublin across the Midlands. Urban Waterford now exceeds 50000 people, which for those who care now makes it a city by EU standards. The City growth rate for the last five years I think is the same as Galway, which may mean growth in that city is moderating. It also means that the populations of the to cities when environs are considered is comparable which important. So rather than overstating our own importance as was dubiously stated previously I think the census results show we are still well in the game.

dayshah

You tell 'im merlante!!!

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

The fact that the South East has now half a million people will probably make it the densest region population wise outside the so-called Greater Dublin Area and the largest population wise ouside the GDA and South West (Cork/Kerry).

My hole. Just look at the population density map. We are not as bad as the BMW regions, but we are not a densely populated area. Apart from Tramore the nearest decent sized town is Dungarvan or Kilkenny, and Dungarvan is more in Cork's catchment area than ours.

fuzzy dunlop

dayshah wrote: »

You tell 'im merlante!!!



My hole. Just look at the population density map. We are not as bad as the BMW regions, but we are not a densely populated area. Apart from Tramore the nearest decent sized town is Dungarvan or Kilkenny, and Dungarvan is more in Cork's catchment area than ours.

I knew you would be the first to refute my post.

Dungarvan isn't in Corks catchment area.If you think it is have the courtesy to post some evidence. Everything I have said is backed up with empirical evidence.
http://www.iro.ie/south_west_authority.html

The above links shows what I said is true and the latest census closes the gap between us and the South West.

dayshah

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I knew you would be the first to refute my post.

Dungarvan isn't in Corks catchment area.If you think it is have the courtesy to post some evidence. Everything I have said is backed up with empirical evidence.
http://www.iro.ie/south_west_authority.html

The above links shows what I said is true and the latest census closes the gap between us and the South West.

Empirical evidence? More like pipe dreams.

From Dungarvan it only takes about 15 more minutes to get to Cork than to Waterford. Just ask Dungarvan people where they go to buy clothes when they go somewhere for a day out.

Gorey is as close to Dublin as to Waterford. As the crow flies much of Wexford is close to Waterford, but with the exception of the passage east car ferry, all that traffic has to come to New Ross. Carlow town is in the middle too, so gravity effects mean the people there are drawn to Dublin.

You said its silly to have local government based on counties, but its even more silly to have it based on these 'regions'.

As for your 'empirical evidence', you say the South East is the densest populated. Let ignore the arbitrary nature of the regions, and inappropriateness of their catchment areas. From your source the South East Region has a higher density than the BMW regions and the Mid-West, areas that are amongst the least densely populated in Western Europe.

So when the government is making decisions about Radiotherapy it should consider the catchment area of Waterford, not some arbitrary region. North Wexford is even considered part of the commuter belt of Dublin now. So why should someone from Gorey or Carlow prefer to come to WRH over Dublin, why would someone from Lismore prefer to go to WRH over Cork, why would someone in Tipperary Town prefer to go to WRH over Limerick?

Sure I'd like to have all these services, but we'll only be laughed at if we base our arguments on current 'population density' when the evidence is so clearly against us.





Page 7 of this has the latest population density map.
http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/Commentary%20part%201.pdf

chelloveks

This post proves the point tHat you can make statistics say whatever you want them to say to fit your needs! There's two sides to every arse!

fuzzy dunlop

dayshah wrote: »

Empirical evidence? More like pipe dreams.

No just hard evidence which I know is hard for you to deal with.

dayshah wrote: »

From Dungarvan it only takes about 15 more minutes to get to Cork than to Waterford. Just ask Dungarvan people where they go to buy clothes when they go somewhere for a day out.

You obviously don't know where Dungarvan is or else your in the habit of driving around at 120mph in the middle of the night.

dayshah wrote: »

Gorey is as close to Dublin as to Waterford. As the crow flies much of Wexford is close to Waterford, but with the exception of the passage east car ferry, all that traffic has to come to New Ross. Carlow town is in the middle too, so gravity effects mean the people there are drawn to Dublin.

Gorey and Carlow is as close to Dublin but they are within the South East region.We're not talking about a shopping expedition we're talking about employment educational and medical services and in these cases Waterford is still easier to get to than anywhere in Dublin from both these places.

dayshah wrote: »

You said its silly to have local government based on counties, but its even more silly to have it based on these 'regions'.

No more Silly than the concept of County Cork or County Galway.

dayshah wrote: »

As for your 'empirical evidence', you say the South East is the densest populated. Let ignore the arbitrary nature of the regions, and inappropriateness of their catchment areas. From your source the South East Region has a higher density than the BMW regions and the Mid-West, areas that are amongst the least densely populated in Western Europe.
.

Let's not as they're not arbitrary.The South East has a higher density than the Border region,The Mid West,The West and is equal to the South West.

BTW it wasn't my source.It was the local regional authorities website which is an independent source.

dayshah wrote: »

So when the government is making decisions about Radiotherapy it should consider the catchment area of Waterford, not some arbitrary region. North Wexford is even considered part of the commuter belt of Dublin now. So why should someone from Gorey or Carlow prefer to come to WRH over Dublin, why would someone from Lismore prefer to go to WRH over Cork, why would someone in Tipperary Town prefer to go to WRH over Limerick?

The problem is their not "some arbitrary region" they are the regions defined by the government agencies for decades. Why would someone in Tralee or Charleville chose Cork over Limerick? Why would someone in Gorey or Carlow chose Waterford over Dublin?Ans: It's easier to get to than Dublin despite being equidistant.Ditto for Lismore and Cork. As for Tipperary town they would go to Limerick as it is in that region.Where did you say you were from again?;)

dayshah wrote: »

Sure I'd like to have all these services, but we'll only be laughed at if we base our arguments on current 'population density' when the evidence is so clearly against us.

The evidence is only "obviously against us" in your wildest fantasies.I understand why you would be worried about people laughing at you considering the pretence you are putting here thinking none of us can see through it:D

dayshah

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

No just hard evidence which I know is hard for you to deal with.

The (out of date) sources you referred to yourself don't back up your story and you ignore gravity effects. Gorey is a commuter town for Dublin, not Waterford. A line on a map doesn't determine where its better for them to get services.

Ever wonder why people from Carlow don't care if WIT gets university status?
Its because its just as easy for them to go to Dublin, and they have a choice of 3 universities and several ITs there.

You may convince yourself, and even the local TDs, that Waterford is the hub of some major region. Try convince the other 162 TDs of your baseless 'facts'.

fuzzy dunlop

dayshah wrote: »

The (out of date) sources you referred to yourself don't back up your story and you ignore gravity effects. Gorey is a commuter town for Dublin, not Waterford. A line on a map doesn't determine where its better for them to get services.

What are gravity effects? Do you even know? I know you think they do but you don't seem to realise that "Gravity effects" in the case of Dublin are something to be negated.You keep talking about this as if it means something signicant against Waterford's case but in fact it doesn't. Back it up with something other than some Op Ed piece you read in the Skibereen Eagle. Where people commute to doesn't matter a damn when it comes to getting specialist services. If the same things they need are on offer in Waterford then they will chose Waterford for the ease of access.Even if they don't 90% of the region will.

BTW here are the up to date sources (Page. 20) Depressing reading for you as it shows the South East is closing the already miniscule population density gap with the South West.

http://cso.ie/census/documents/Amended%20census2006_%20Volume%201%20Pop%20Classified%20by%20Area.pdf

dayshah wrote: »

Ever wonder why people from Carlow don't care if WIT gets university status?
Its because its just as easy for them to go to Dublin, and they have a choice of 3 universities and several ITs there..

Yes because gombeen politicians in Carlow are leading them up the Garden path into thinking that Carlow IT is in the same league as WIT.I know plenty of Carlow people and they have no adverse reaction to WIT being upgraded.I know plenty of Dungarvan people too and it's news to them that Cork is now the centre of their Universe.

dayshah wrote: »

You may convince yourself, and even the local TDs, that Waterford is the hub of some major region. Try convince the other 162 TDs of your baseless 'facts'.

Baseless Facts:D Only the last two censuses. You don't really like evidence do you? It must disapoint you a lot.Try reading chicken entrails it might offer you some hope.

I don't have to persuade 162 TD's. 162 TD's were never needed to make anything happen in this country. All you need is a large enough block. In any case your the one going to great lenghts to fight someone else's corner and thus convincing me of something despite not posting one iota of evidence.Strange that

dayshah

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Where people commute to doesn't matter a damn when it comes to getting specialist services. If the same things they need are on offer in Waterford then they will chose Waterford for the ease of access.Even if they don't 90% of the region will.

Gravity effects mean that people are attracted to larger areas. Take universities for example.

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I know plenty of Carlow people and they have no adverse reaction to WIT being upgraded.

Carlow is halfway between Dublin and Waterford, so sure they have no reason to be against WIT upgrading. But does that mean they would actively campaign for it? No. Gravity effects mean that even if we had a university here the bulk of Carlow students would still be attracted to Dublin. Dublin has greater mass. Economies of scale mean that they are more likely to find the course they exactly want, as well as being attracted to the bright lights of Dublin, already have friends/family working there, etc etc. This holds for specialist medical services also. Waterford's advantage is the exact opposite to what you think it is. Because we are a relatively low density area we can offer students things like cheaper rents.

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

BTW here are the up to date sources (Page. 20) Depressing reading for you as it shows the South East is closing the already miniscule population density gap with the South West.

http://cso.ie/census/documents/Amended%20census2006_%20Volume%201%20Pop%20Classified%20by%20Area.pdf

These are '06 figures. Have you even looked at the 2011 population density map I referred to?

County Cork alone has a larger, denser, and more concentrated population than the entire South-East region. Sure tagging on mountainous Kerry (which also has a population above Waterford's) lowers the overall density, but increases the population of that area. Tagging on Kerry makes sense in that case because Cork is the nearest big city (though parts of North Kerry might find it better to go to Limerick). So the South East is nowhere near as important as the South West.

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I don't have to persuade 162 TD's. 162 TD's were never needed to make anything happen in this country. All you need is a large enough block. In any case your the one going to great lenghts to fight someone else's corner and thus convincing me of something despite not posting one iota of evidence.Strange that

The South East region has 17 TDs, but as I already stated, many of them aren't even interested in Waterford as a regional centre as they are just as close to Dublin. Much of the population growth since 2006 is because places like Gorey are in Dublin's commuter belt, not ours.

Our politicians are there to represent our area, just as politicians for other areas represent theirs. If a local politician were to make a case for some service based on your grossly flawed analysis, it wont be long before a politician from some other area picks them up on it. This just weakens the case for Waterford. Instead when we want something for Waterford we have to make the case that it is good for the country.

Waterford is not some major city, and the South East is not a major region. We shouldn't be worried for this. A proper spatial strategy would be good for the whole country, and services for Waterford could get support in that context. However a spatial strategy must first acknowledge that Waterford is relatively low density, and it is this low density which means we have plenty of room for growth, taking some congestion away from Dublin.

Chiparus

Waterford is a bit of a dump compared to other towns in the region. Wexford, clonmel and Kilkenny are far nicer places to visit or live in.

No one wants to come to waterford to visit, its the southern version of Dundalk.

merlante

Chiparus wrote: »

Waterford is a bit of a dump compared to other towns in the region. Wexford, clonmel and Kilkenny are far nicer places to visit or live in.

No one wants to come to waterford to visit, its the southern version of Dundalk.

That's why Waterford will probably emerge as the fastest growing city in Ireland once the full city plus suburbs figure comes out in April next year.

Waterford is coming on in leaps and bounds recently and always had a great quality of life when you take into account the amount of places to go and things to do in the area.

merlante

To those arguing about the 'gravity' that Waterford may or may not exert on other parts of the region, you might want to check out figures released by the HEA (here), particularly "IoT (and Uni) Sector County of permanent residence of FT students residing in Ireland by gender", i.e. where students from various counties go to college.

Carlow sends nearly twice the number of students to WIT than to Trinity, DCU or NUIM, and almost as many as it send to UCD. Comparing like with like, it also sends twice the number of students to WIT as it send to DIT. In fact, the 191 Carlow students enrolled in WIT compares respectably even with the 747 enrolled in IT Carlow. For every 4 Carlow students that attend Carlow, 1 attends WIT.

So services in Waterford are very relevant to people in Carlow, whether they like to admit it or not, and institutions in Waterford (WIT) seem to be considered more accessible to Carlow people than institutions such as DIT.

Another important point, in these times of cutting back services left, right and centre, is that the denizens of the south east and more likely to become more familiar with services in Waterford as local services are paired back and centralised. Dublin may be as close to places like Carlow and Cork to places like Clonmel, but Dublin and Cork have their own catchment populations to serve.

Chiparus

merlante wrote: »

That's why Waterford will probably emerge as the fastest growing city in Ireland once the full city plus suburbs figure comes out in April next year.

Waterford is coming on in leaps and bounds recently and always had a great quality of life when you take into account the amount of places to go and things to do in the area.

Agree there is lots to do here, but the city is a dump.

merlante

Chiparus wrote: »

Agree there is lots to do here, but the city is a dump.

Well you know what they say about opinions and arseholes. There are many attractive parts of inner city Waterford.

fuzzy dunlop

dayshah wrote: »

Gravity effects mean that people are attracted to larger areas. Take universities for example.

I know what it means. I was asking you did you know what it means as you seem to misunderstand it? Not to mention the fact that gravity is not working in Ireland the way it should be. The gravity you are talking about needs to be negated in some instances such as Dublin and encouraged in other places. This is the whole point of a spatial strategy.

dayshah wrote: »

Carlow is halfway between Dublin and Waterford, so sure they have no reason to be against WIT upgrading. But does that mean they would actively campaign for it? No. Gravity effects mean that even if we had a university here the bulk of Carlow students would still be attracted to Dublin. Dublin has greater mass. Economies of scale mean that they are more likely to find the course they exactly want, as well as being attracted to the bright lights of Dublin, already have friends/family working there, etc etc. This holds for specialist medical services also. Waterford's advantage is the exact opposite to what you think it is. Because we are a relatively low density area we can offer students things like cheaper rents.

In real terms Carlow is closer to Waterford as you have to take into account commuter congestion. It takes less time to get into Waterford from Carlow as it does to get from Naas to Dublin City Centre. Your analysis of a Carlow students desire to go to Dublin could apply to anyone including a Cork student so it is not relevant even if it is true. Your extrapolation of this theory for medical services is just wrong and again would easily apply to Cork as Waterford. The economies of scale are in the South East and services are provided on the population scale that exists in the South East. Bright Lights have SFA to do with it. A Carlow Student that prefers to travel home each evening is more likely to prefer Waterford than Dublin.

dayshah wrote: »

These are '06 figures. Have you even looked at the 2011 population density map I referred to?

Page 2 of the 2011 figures show the South East has a higher growth rate than the South West. You also don’t know how to read Geographic Information Data. It’s the numbers that matter not the colours on the map. Any region that has a density above 100 per square km is red. This includes areas with 1000 people per square km (Waterford City) with area of 101 per square km (County Cork). The map shows that Cork and Limerick are shedding it’s urban population which debunks your gravity theory. Hong Kong would look the same as Middleton using those scales.

dayshah wrote: »

County Cork alone has a larger, denser, and more concentrated population than the entire South-East region. Sure tagging on mountainous Kerry (which also has a population above Waterford's) lowers the overall density, but increases the population of that area. Tagging on Kerry makes sense in that case because Cork is the nearest big city (though parts of North Kerry might find it better to go to Limerick). So the South East is nowhere near as important as the South West.

This is factually incorrect. You can’t hive off mountainous areas in West Cork and Kerry and say this makes it denser. If you do you have to do the same in the South East. The South West is larger but not more densely populated. The aggregate urban population in the South East might be also comparable or even larger. But this isn’t about the South East versus the South West. It’s a statement of fact that the South East is demographically more important than most other regions outside the GDA and almost comparable to the South West. To say otherwise is ignoring reality.

dayshah wrote: »

The South East region has 17 TDs, but as I already stated, many of them aren't even interested in Waterford as a regional centre as they are just as close to Dublin. Much of the population growth since 2006 is because places like Gorey are in Dublin's commuter belt, not ours.

The commuter belts have SFA to do with anything when it comes to hospitals or Universities or jobs for that matter. And anyway it’s not all Dublins Commuter belt. Places such as Arklow have enough Industry to attract commuters from Gorey as Does Wexford and Waterford. So that is not as cut and dry as you think.I would bet when you look at the numbers most people in Gorey and Carlow work within the region. As for political cohesion of our TD’s that has nothing to do with anything either. That is a political issue! It can be overcome politically which is what is happening in the Regional Authorities.

dayshah wrote: »

Our politicians are there to represent our area, just as politicians for other areas represent theirs. If a local politician were to make a case for some service based on your grossly flawed analysis, it wont be long before a politician from some other area picks them up on it. This just weakens the case for Waterford. Instead when we want something for Waterford we have to make the case that it is good for the country.

If my analysis is so flawed why is it government policy? A Kilkenny or Wexford politician can’t campaign for Cancer Services in the South East without campaigning for Waterford because that’s where the centre is. Politicians are not that stupid. You also seem to forget that for a large part of both Kilkenny and Wexford electorate and significant parts of Tipp Waterford City is closer than their County Towns. Denying something from Waterford especially medical would be political suicide.

dayshah wrote: »

Waterford is not some major city, and the South East is not a major region. We shouldn't be worried for this. A proper spatial strategy would be good for the whole country, and services for Waterford could get support in that context. However a spatial strategy must first acknowledge that Waterford is relatively low density, and it is this low density which means we have plenty of room for growth, taking some congestion away from Dublin.

Which is it? Services because we are not a major city or don’t provide services because we are not a major city. You seem confused. You can’t say Waterford is not a major City and Galway and Limerick are.The fact is Waterford is a major city by Irish standards. None of the Cities are anything without their region as they provide the economies of scale you are talking about and that includes Cork. Regionally the South East is much more important than the Mid West or West. Yes Cork and the South West is the most important outside Dublin but only by a minor and decreasing margin is it more important than the South East.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Carlow sends nearly twice the number of students to WIT than to Trinity, DCU or NUIM, and almost as many as it send to UCD. Comparing like with like, it also sends twice the number of students to WIT as it send to DIT. In fact, the 191 Carlow students enrolled in WIT compares respectably even with the 747 enrolled in IT Carlow. For every 4 Carlow students that attend Carlow, 1 attends WIT.

So services in Waterford are very relevant to people in Carlow, whether they like to admit it or not, and institutions in Waterford (WIT) seem to be considered more accessible to Carlow people than institutions such as DIT.

But that proves my point. Far, far, more Carlow students go to Dublin than to WIT. Its why Carlow people aren't particularly interested if WIT becomes a university. They already have 4 universities almost as close. A 5th would be nice for them, but they might find tax money spent better on other things.

I agree services in Waterford are relevant, as Carlow straddles the 2 catchment areas. But we can't just assume that Carlow people prefer to come to Waterford if more choice and specialist services are available in Dublin.

If we want to make an argument for a service like radiotherapy we can't argue that people in Carlow and Gorey are not already served, they can easily go to Dublin. What we can argue is that as they are also close to Waterford, by giving Waterford the service it will ease congestion on Dublin's hospitals. There is a point where congestion overcomes the benefits of economies of scale, and it is here that we have to make our argument, acknowledging that catchment areas for some services overlap. A large number of people in Gorey are from Dublin, know their way around Dublin, have family there, and prefer to go there than Waterford.

However the argument of relieving congestion becomes weaker and weaker the more specialised the service is.

The country is broke. We can't frame our arguments in terms of what's good for us, but what's good for the rest of the country.

dayshah

Chiparus wrote: »

Waterford is a bit of a dump compared to other towns in the region. Wexford, clonmel and Kilkenny are far nicer places to visit or live in.

No one wants to come to waterford to visit, its the southern version of Dundalk.

Well I can think of 500,000 who wanted to visit.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

But that proves my point. Far, far, more Carlow students go to Dublin than to WIT. Its why Carlow people aren't particularly interested if WIT becomes a university. They already have 4 universities almost as close. A 5th would be nice for them, but they might find tax money spent better on other things.

I agree services in Waterford are relevant, as Carlow straddles the 2 catchment areas. But we can't just assume that Carlow people prefer to come to Waterford if more choice and specialist services are available in Dublin.

If we want to make an argument for a service like radiotherapy we can't argue that people in Carlow and Gorey are not already served, they can easily go to Dublin. What we can argue is that as they are also close to Waterford, by giving Waterford the service it will ease congestion on Dublin's hospitals. There is a point where congestion overcomes the benefits of economies of scale, and it is here that we have to make our argument, acknowledging that catchment areas for some services overlap. A large number of people in Gorey are from Dublin, know their way around Dublin, have family there, and prefer to go there than Waterford.

However the argument of relieving congestion becomes weaker and weaker the more specialised the service is.

The country is broke. We can't frame our arguments in terms of what's good for us, but what's good for the rest of the country.

Yes, more Carlow students go to Dublin, but there are also more institutions in Dublin. The WIT figure, in my opinion, shows a preference for WIT over institutions in Dublin, despite higher rankings, bigger reputation, university status and so on, in the case of those institutions. If the WIT were upgraded, WIT's numbers would increase. And the numbers are not *that* much greater. DCU, UCD, TCD and DIT all together only take something like 2.5-3 times what WIT takes. That's amazing if you think about it.

The fact that a lot more students go to WIT over NUI Maynooth, given that they are basically the same distance from Waterford, might indicate a certain pull towards Waterford, or else a certain sense of 'staying within the region'. Maynooth may be seen as more peripheral or distant in the mindset.

It is clearly easier to get in and out of Waterford, transport-wise, than Dublin, and Waterford might be seen as a more friendly place for students than big scary Dublin. It's also a damn sight cheaper to live there.

Universities and colleges aside, where students have a choice about where to go, most services are or will come to be provided on a regional basis in the regional capital. The population of Dublin city is around 1.1m with another large regional population in the East. There are enough people for Dublin services to deal with without adding Carlow, etc., to the mix. The 0.5m people in the south east will have to use south east services whether they like it or not. They are not going to build a regional hospital in Waterford just for half the region to go to Dublin or Cork whether there are already large populations using services. Appointments, etc., will be set for Waterford. And people will generally be glad of it, because you can be in and out of Waterford in no time at all.

There are some specialist services that will only be provided in Dublin, or maybe Cork, which is right and proper for a country of 4.5m. But the bread and butter stuff of education, health, etc. will be done on a regional level in regions of about 0.5m. At the moment, it is still happening in many places at a local level for populations of <100K, this won't last for much longer.

dayshah

Yes. I suppose my main point is that for people from Carlow and Gorey we are in direct competition with Dublin, and with people from Lismore we are in competition with Cork. This is in contrast to Galway for example, who's catchment area is bigger as a result.

So when people say things like the 500,000 people of the south east has no radiotherapy, its not really true, as the Carlow, Gorey etc people can go to Dublin easily.

That WIT attracts as many students Carlow undergrads as TCD shows the high standard of WIT. I think they could get more support from Carlow TDs by saying how a university of Waterford would mean their children can get a university education, but pay half the rent, saving thousands. We should embrace our low population and density, which leads to the low rents.

As for 'bread and butter' stuff. I broadly agree. I consider undergrad degrees (and some more popular masters) the bread and butter of education. But when we get to more specialised things like some Masters and almost all PhD programmes I don't think we can compete with Dublin. At best we can only have one niche area that would be at an international standard (like Galway and their medical devices).

But overall I think its far better to argue Waterford should get a service because it will relieve pressure on Dublin, than because the 'south-east' needs it. Services in places in Tallaght hospital are creaking at the seems because their patients are coming from the hinterland outside Dublin.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Yes. I suppose my main point is that for people from Carlow and Gorey we are in direct competition with Dublin, and with people from Lismore we are in competition with Cork. This is in contrast to Galway for example, who's catchment area is bigger as a result.

So when people say things like the 500,000 people of the south east has no radiotherapy, its not really true, as the Carlow, Gorey etc people can go to Dublin easily.

That WIT attracts as many students Carlow undergrads as TCD shows the high standard of WIT. I think they could get more support from Carlow TDs by saying how a university of Waterford would mean their children can get a university education, but pay half the rent, saving thousands. We should embrace our low population and density, which leads to the low rents.

As for 'bread and butter' stuff. I broadly agree. I consider undergrad degrees (and some more popular masters) the bread and butter of education. But when we get to more specialised things like some Masters and almost all PhD programmes I don't think we can compete with Dublin. At best we can only have one niche area that would be at an international standard (like Galway and their medical devices).

But overall I think its far better to argue Waterford should get a service because it will relieve pressure on Dublin, than because the 'south-east' needs it. Services in places in Tallaght hospital are creaking at the seems because their patients are coming from the hinterland outside Dublin.

If competition with other regions is acute in the south east, where Waterford is relatively distant from other cities, then it is far worse in Limerick, which is sandwiched between Cork and Galway. I think it is legitimate to talk about the south east region as a logical entity and logical portion of the country. Yes, of course people on the outskirts of the region can be served by other regions, but you could also argue that parts of other regions could be served by Waterford/south east as well.

I don't think arguing for facilities for the south east is a weaker argument than arguing to take pressure off Dublin. For a start, the vast majority of the population of Co. Waterford is considerably closer to Waterford than Cork, including Dungarvan, which is a good 20 odd minutes closer to Waterford than Cork. Most of Wexford is much closer to Waterford than Dublin. South Tipp., especially the large populations are much closer to Waterford than anywhere else. Kilkenny is our back yard (our front yard according to them ) and Carlow is 50/50. If Waterford were to be downgraded as a regional centre, the vast majority of the region would have much poorer access to services.

Chiparus

merlante wrote: »

Well you know what they say about opinions and arseholes. There are many attractive parts of inner city Waterford.

Really? I have yet to find them.

fuzzy dunlop

Chiparus wrote: »

Really? I have yet to find them.

Then you're seeing what you want to see or else you haven't been in the city centre.

Chiparus

I live close to the city center, I just think it is not attractive to look at or visit,

I think all heavy goods vehicles should be banned from the quay.

The quays cut to one lane each way.

Get rid of those pointless cycling stands.

merlante

Chiparus wrote: »

Really? I have yet to find them.

John Robert's square; The Mall, bishop's palace, etc; Reginald's tower, William Wallace Plaza and Quay boardwalk; area around the Park; the narrow streets in the viking triangle; scotch quay with the swans. All of these areas have received more than a lick of paint in the recent past and look very well, as evidenced by the number of people who enjoy them.

fuzzy dunlop

Chiparus wrote: »

I live close to the city center, I just think it is not attractive to look at or visit,

I think all heavy goods vehicles should be banned from the quay.

The quays cut to one lane each way.

Get rid of those pointless cycling stands.

That's fair enough if it's your opinion at least you've made some qualification this time. But to suggest nowhere in the City centre is attractive is like saying nowhere in Holland is attractive. The older streetscapes in many Dutch towns is similar to what you will find in the streets around City Square. Likewise I would find it hard to believe anyone could walk around the Mall and not be able to admit that it is an attractive street.I agree with what you said about traffic on the quay btw.

dayshah

@ Chiparus

Regarding the cycling stands, I think the weird ones with umbrellas are pointless. They take up a lot of space, and are so difficult to use that hardly anyone uses them. Also they don't offer good locking possibilities. However, I think the other bike stands like in Ballybricken and the park are good.

merlante wrote: »

John Robert's square; The Mall, bishop's palace, etc; Reginald's tower, William Wallace Plaza and Quay boardwalk; area around the Park; the narrow streets in the viking triangle; scotch quay with the swans. All of these areas have received more than a lick of paint in the recent past and look very well, as evidenced by the number of people who enjoy them.

And don't forget Cathedral Square, which I think is Waterford's hidden treasure.

O Riain

dayshah wrote: »

@ Chiparus

Regarding the cycling stands, I think the weird ones with umbrellas are pointless. They take up a lot of space, and are so difficult to use that hardly anyone uses them. Also they don't offer good locking possibilities. However, I think the other bike stands like in Ballybricken and the park are good.



And don't forget Cathedral Square, which I think is Waterford's hidden treasure.

Cathedral square is an aging dump. Hopefully it wont be this way for much longer, the square needs to be completely redun, new tree's need to be put in, possibly put benches back in there but somehow try and keep the anti socials and drunks off it as this was a major problem the last time. As for the houses theres a new pottery shop but that leaves 3/6 houses in a shocking state.

merlante

O Riain wrote: »

Cathedral square is an aging dump. Hopefully it wont be this way for much longer, the square needs to be completely redun, new tree's need to be put in, possibly put benches back in there but somehow try and keep the anti socials and drunks off it as this was a major problem the last time. As for the houses theres a new pottery shop but that leaves 3/6 houses in a shocking state.

I used to live around the corner up till a year or so ago. After the fire in one of the houses, things went downhill and squatters moved in to one of the other houses, but the area was never dangerous, and the drunks never hung around there (on Peter st., yes, but not in Cathedral sq.). There are not 3-6 houses in a bad state, more like 2 or 3. (There aren't even 6 houses there.) Even so, the area is still very nice despite a few blemishes.

In any case, the whole area is being redone at the moment as part of the viking triangle, so just give it some time. The trees are overgrown and are going to be replaced with more appropriate trees, and there is a specific design for the layout of the square. I thought I remember hearing that one of the vacant houses was going to be turned into a small architectural museum, since it is the spot, possibly even the house, that John Roberts was born in.

The whole area is coming on in leaps and bounds and where the council have completed work, there has been a vast difference. Gallweys chocolate and coffee shop seems to be doing good business in the heart of the viking triangle and there is a constant stream of tourists down to see the glassblowing and other crafts. This part of town only has a few blemishes left and will be one the crown jewels of Waterford in the very near future.