Calling All Naturalised Irish and Non White Registered Voters

dublin99

The Immigrant Council launched a Campaign "Count Us In" to raise awareness amongst candidates and canvassers that there are 35,000+ naturalised Irish citizens, and many more second generation migrants and other non whites who are eligible to vote tomorrow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt3dkLvyI74

Although none of the main parties have even mentioned the promotion of Equality and Diversity in the State in their agenda, we do exist and we'd like to live in a truly multicultural and integrated society. Multiculturalism has already failed in the UK and Germany and caused social problems in these countries.

Following my own very unpleasant experience with Mary Hanafin's canvasser and a callous "brush off" by Ms Hanafin herself, I urge every migrant who has a vote to exercise that vote tomorrow, and vote for candidates/parties who recognise and condemns racism. Hopefully we will raise awareness amongst politicians who will commit to promoting Equality and to make a difference to the way "foreigners" are treated.

Buceph

I don't think you'll find a single publically racist mainstream politician.


And maybe you should for something more concrete than "recognising and condemning racism." People need to see measures that can be taken rather than platitudes.

paul71

OP. Can you enlighten us about your experience with Mary Hannifan and her canvasser?

dublin99

Buceph wrote: »

I don't think you'll find a single publically racist mainstream politician.


And maybe you should for something more concrete than "recognising and condemning racism." People need to see measures that can be taken rather than platitudes.

Of course no one will admit he/she is racist. Although overt or blatant racism is on the decline and is dealt with by Equality legislation, sadly, there is widespread everyday casual racism in Irish society, which stems from a deeply ingrained attitude and gross stereotyping of “foreigners”. People don’t even realise that they are treating “foreigners” in a discriminatory and offensive manner. This kind of insidious or subtle racism is a major barrier to Integration and one of the reasons why multiculturalism has failed in other countries.

Education and raising awareness is the key – in schools where integration is actively encouraged, children don’t even notice that some of their classmates may be of a different colour.

paul71 wrote: »

OP. Can you enlighten us about your experience with Mary Hannifan and her canvasser?

Please look at this blog:

http://www.mamanpoulet.com/racial-profiling-on-the-canvass/

Despite numerous complaints, when challenged in person, Ms Hanafin apologised (quite meaninglessly) but denied categorically it was a racist incident, just “someone said something to somebody who didn’t have a vote”. It was obvious that nothing was being done to investigate or to educate her canvassers. When I corrected her and told her I had a vote, she said she’d “check the register” – did she think I was lying because I was a “foreigner”?

paul71

Thank you op, it is an issue of concern, not one that would change my vote however. Mary Hannafin is not someone I would vote for, congrats for raising the issue and hopefully the cumulative effects of putting stories like this in the public domain will educate our politicians.

Buceph

dublin99 wrote: »

Of course no one will admit he/she is racist. Although overt or blatant racism is on the decline and is dealt with by Equality legislation, sadly, there is widespread everyday casual racism in Irish society, which stems from a deeply ingrained attitude and gross stereotyping of “foreigners”. People don’t even realise that they are treating “foreigners” in a discriminatory and offensive manner. This kind of insidious or subtle racism is a major barrier to Integration and one of the reasons why multiculturalism has failed in other countries.

Education and raising awareness is the key – in schools where integration is actively encouraged, children don’t even notice that some of their classmates may be of a different colour.

I understand that. One of my best friends would fall into the category you describe and he has a vote in this election. I just don't know what it is you want.

Is all this simply an awareness campaign, or are there specific policies you'd like to see?

rebel10

I'm sorry that you had to put up with that kind of ignorance right on your door step. Immigration and multi-culturalism is something that is not new to Ireland anymore and for someone to live up to that ignorance when canvassing for votes, says alot about the party they are promoting.

Ignorance is everywhere i'm afraid. The other day, a man called here selling broadband or Sky or something. I was talking away to him, and I eventually said, "Look, we actually have free to air, so I'm not really that interested." To which he said, "Is your husband in? Is he the fella that would have the final say?" I was shocked, I told him I live with my mother, no males, we decide.

coddlesangers

Next thing you'll be telling us you can work the remote all on your own, I'm having none of it.

Squirm

Thanks OP for this post. I started a thread a couple of days ago about same sex marraige and whether people would be looking at a parties' policies on this in their decision making process.

The general consensus was that matters of economics would be the over-riding issues considered when choosing candidates. However, someone very wisely pointed out that a parties views on same sex marraige is like a litmus test for how socially progressive a party is.

This gave me food for thought and so has your post. In the same way, a parties' views and prospective legislation in the areas of social integration and multiculturalism offer an insight into the mind set of a given party, aside from the much debated issues of jobs, welfare, national debt and taxation.

It is often hard to take seriously the 'empty promises' and the rehersed answers given by many of the candidates on the important issues that they expect and have prepared themselves to answer. Looking at some of these "back seat" issues might give us a better insight into the candidates and into how they are likely to approach their time in office, once elected and longer in need of public support!

I am not referring to issues of racism and multiculturalism as 'back seat' issues because that is how I feel about them, but rather because I gather the majority of the people will be more focused on financial issues that will have a direct impact on them and their bank balances.

I am disgusted at the comments directed at you by mary Hannifan. The idea that she would suggest that you were being dishonest!!! I whole heartily agree that racism is VERY much alive in well. A regular user of Dublin Bus would, I'm sure, agree. I think that social integration is an extremely important issue, particularly when it comes to our children and the society we are moulding for them to grow up in.

Kudos for raising awareness on the issue.

Squirm

rebel10 wrote: »

I'm sorry that you had to put up with that kind of ignorance right on your door step. Immigration and multi-culturalism is something that is not new to Ireland anymore and for someone to live up to that ignorance when canvassing for votes, says alot about the party they are promoting.

Ignorance is everywhere i'm afraid. The other day, a man called here selling broadband or Sky or something. I was talking away to him, and I eventually said, "Look, we actually have free to air, so I'm not really that interested." To which he said, "Is your husband in? Is he the fella that would have the final say?" I was shocked, I told him I live with my mother, no males, we decide.

Both my mother and my mother-in-law have experienced THE EXACT SAME lines from Sky Broadband door-to-door sellers!!! I wonder if they are being briefed to try and sell to the "man of the house"...?? Or if this is just a more sexist society than I realised!!

Bottle_of_Smoke

dublin99 wrote: »

Of course no one will admit he/she is racist. Although overt or blatant racism is on the decline and is dealt with by Equality legislation, sadly, there is widespread everyday casual racism in Irish society, which stems from a deeply ingrained attitude and gross stereotyping of “foreigners”. People don’t even realise that they are treating “foreigners” in a discriminatory and offensive manner. This kind of insidious or subtle racism is a major barrier to Integration and one of the reasons why multiculturalism has failed in other countries.

Education and raising awareness is the key – in schools where integration is actively encouraged, children don’t even notice that some of their classmates may be of a different colour.




Please look at this blog:

http://www.mamanpoulet.com/racial-profiling-on-the-canvass/

Despite numerous complaints, when challenged in person, Ms Hanafin apologised (quite meaninglessly) but denied categorically it was a racist incident, just “someone said something to somebody who didn’t have a vote”. It was obvious that nothing was being done to investigate or to educate her canvassers. When I corrected her and told her I had a vote, she said she’d “check the register” – did she think I was lying because I was a “foreigner”?

Can you please explain why you put the word foreigners in inverted commas? I'm Irish and live in continental Europe, if someone described me as a foreigner I cannot understand why I should feel offended.

If you are not from Ireland you are a foreigner when in Ireland. Why do you imply they are not foreigners by putting the word in inverted commas?

Also I read that blog. What is wrong with a canvasser asking if you have a vote? When I was 19 a canvasser asked if I had a vote because as he wasn't sure I was over 18, he established if talking to me about the election was a waste of time or not. Simliarly a lot of non whites don't have a vote so what the hell is wrong with confirming if the non white person could vote? It is possible a lot of the times a canvasser doesn't ask they will go through their spiel to be told "I do not have a vote"

You'd swear being offended is a new past time for bloggers.

flash1080

"Mass Immigration Led To Ireland’s Crash…"
http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/mass-immigration-led-to-irelands-crash-ted-neville-irish-solidarity-party-cork-south-central/

RetroBate

"Calling All Naturalised Irish and Non White Registered Voters"

If I was as sensitive as the OP seems to be I'd see the above as an example of "casual racism".

If I move to India or China the local population will presume I don't speak Hindi or Mandarin. Is this "racial stereotyping"?

rebel10

RetroBate wrote: »

"Calling All Naturalised Irish and Non White Registered Voters"

If I was as sensitive as the OP seems to be I'd see the above as an example of "casual racism".

If I move to India or China the local population will presume I don't speak Hindi or Mandarin. Is this "racial stereotyping"?

Yes, but have India and China seen the levels of immigration Ireland has in the past decade?

RetroBate

flash1080 wrote: »

"Mass Immigration Led To Ireland’s Crash…"
http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/mass-immigration-led-to-irelands-crash-ted-neville-irish-solidarity-party-cork-south-central/

Ted Neville who issued this leaflet ran in the 2007 general election.
Out of a total poll of just under 60,000 he got 804 votes.

By early Saturday we should find out whether his vote is increasing or not.

dublin99

RetroBate wrote: »

"Calling All Naturalised Irish and Non White Registered Voters"

If I was as sensitive as the OP seems to be I'd see the above as an example of "casual racism".

If I move to India or China the local population will presume I don't speak Hindi or Mandarin. Is this "racial stereotyping"?

Well actually, there is a sort of reverse racism in these countries, where caucasians are often businessmen/ executives of multinationals companies or banks/ diplomats etc, and are well respected. It is a sharp contrast to the way that many Irish would stereotype certain groups of non caucasians, assuming they are asylum seekers, or economic migrants and generally assume they are of an inferior social class with a poor command of heavily accented English. The way Micheal Martin impersonated a chinese accent is a typical example of an Irishman's attitude - thinking it is funny - imagine what will happen if David Cameron imitates an Indian accent on TV?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Also I read that blog. What is wrong with a canvasser asking if you have a vote?

You missed the point. The cavasser made two wrong assumptions about my right to vote and my command of the English language, based on her observation of my appearance , ie my skin colour. That is casual racism and should not have happened. Incidentally, I am not deaf and I dont look under 18 even with botox!

flash1080

dublin99 wrote: »

Well actually, there is a sort of reverse racism in these countries, where caucasians are often businessmen/ executives of multinationals companies or banks/ diplomats etc, and are well respected. It is a sharp contrast to the way that many Irish would stereotype certain groups of non caucasians, assuming they are asylum seekers, or economic migrants and generally assume they are of an inferior social class with a poor command of heavily accented English. The way Micheal Martin impersonated a chinese accent is a typical example of an Irishman's attitude - thinking it is funny - imagine what will happen if David Cameron imitates an Indian accent on TV?




You missed the point. The cavasser made two wrong assumptions about my right to vote and my command of the English language, based on her observation of my appearance , ie my skin colour. That is casual racism and should not have happened. Incidentally, I am not deaf and I dont look under 18 even with botox!

What's wrong with impersonating accents? I've heard non-Irish people do impressions of Irish accents, it was a laugh, not racist at all.

dublin99

flash1080 wrote: »

What's wrong with impersonating accents? I've heard non-Irish people do impressions of Irish accents, it was a laugh, not racist at all.

Yes its a laugh when its slagging between friends, but not for respected politicians speaking in public! So why did Martin apologise? Why dont we see Cameron or Angela Merkel or Obama imitating accents when they speak in public?

Bottle_of_Smoke

dublin99 wrote: »

The way Micheal Martin impersonated a chinese accent is a typical example of an Irishman's attitude - thinking it is funny - imagine what will happen if David Cameron imitates an Indian accent on TV?

This attitude stinks and is actually kind of xenophobic the way you describe a typical Irishman. I detest the man but he was not trying to be funny - he was describing a scenario he was in for crying out loud. There's no history of racism by Irish against Chinese like there is by whites against Indians in Britain so that's a terrible analogy. You're not in Bradford now.

You missed the point. The cavasser made two wrong assumptions about my right to vote and my command of the English language, based on her observation of my appearance , ie my skin colour. That is casual racism and should not have happened. Incidentally, I am not deaf and I dont look under 18 even with botox!

No it is you who missed the point. That was idiocy not casual racism. Our Black/Asian communities are different to those in Britain in that they have not been here for generations and are therefore less likely to speak English or have a vote. Therefore it is more reasonable to enquire than in Britain. If I was canvassing and a non-white person or a white person with a foreign accent answered I would ask them if they had a vote. The only thing wrong I see in that blog is the tone and volume of voice she asked it in, which as I said was more stupidity on the part of that canvasser not casual racism.

The looking younger part I was giving an example of when a canvasser asked me if I had a vote and I didn't run to the hills screaming AGEISM!!!. Could you address the other points I made in that post?

dublin99

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Our Black/Asian communities are different to those in Britain in that they have not been here for generations and are therefore less likely to speak English or have a vote.

That is racism.

RetroBate

dublin99 wrote: »

Well actually, there is a sort of reverse racism in these countries, where caucasians are often businessmen/ executives of multinationals companies or banks/ diplomats etc, and are well respected. It is a sharp contrast to the way that many Irish would stereotype certain groups of non caucasians, assuming they are asylum seekers, or economic migrants and generally assume they are of an inferior social class with a poor command of heavily accented English. The way Micheal Martin impersonated a chinese accent is a typical example of an Irishman's attitude - thinking it is funny - imagine what will happen if David Cameron imitates an Indian accent on TV?

Well if you listen to the context of Micheal Martins impersonation you will hear him say that "when I was on trade missions to China ministers and officials would say to me etc......" So was that "reverse racism"?

My thinking, I could be wrong, is that you are a British citizen living in Ireland who is unfamiliar with Irish society. Using a British prime minister as an example of how to behave is not a good idea here.

We are very racist, towards irish travellers, who all happen to be white.

Scotty #

dublin99 wrote: »

That is racism.

Can you please define racism for me? Particularly in the contect of the statement you are quoting above.

flash1080

dublin99 wrote: »

That is racism.

Get out of here! That's not racism!

analucija

I'm white so I wouldn't be target of racism, only of xenophobia. In 6 years in Ireland I had one problem with a drunken idiot and even that was more stupidity than anything else. I had canvassers from FF and FG on the door and i was treated with all the courtesy although I can't vote here. I do think that what happened there is a bit blown out of proportion. Somebody with worse English could be insulted because the person spoke to them to quickly to understand. There are a lot of reasons not to vote FF but that "incident" is blown out of proportion.

MajorMax

I believe in forced repatriation for illegal immigrants. if I see someone of colour i assume that they are not Irish. I believe that the immigration policy of this country is a farce and we will suffer the consequences for years to come. Am I a racist? I prefer to think of myself as an Irishman and my first and only loyalty is to my country and my people. If you don't like it....well you know the rest.

Buceph

MajorMax wrote: »

I believe in forced repatriation for illegal immigrants.

You'll be happy to know that that's official policy of the state as well.

Bottle_of_Smoke

dublin99 wrote: »

That is racism.

Explain how. Seems like a statement of fact to me.

Why won't you actually address any of the points I've made?

I really think your attitude causes problems, when you get offended at every little perceived racist incident you take credibility away from your community/race.

Then when your community/race suffers real racism like discrimination in the workplace people don't take them seriously because they think of people kicking up a fuss over everything.

Rabble Rabble

dublin99 wrote: »

That is racism.

lol.

Rabble Rabble

OP is a massively oppressed victim, apparently.

Me, I've lived in countries as a foreigner where I didnt even get the vote. how oppressed is that?

Bottle_of_Smoke

MajorMax wrote: »

I believe in forced repatriation for illegal immigrants. if I see someone of colour i assume that they are not Irish. I believe that the immigration policy of this country is a farce and we will suffer the consequences for years to come. Am I a racist? I prefer to think of myself as an Irishman and my first and only loyalty is to my country and my people. If you don't like it....well you know the rest.

I wouldn't make that assumption to be fair, though I'm from Dublin. In the cities - particularly Dublin and Belfast there are plenty of non-white/mixed race Irish people.

rebel10

RetroBate wrote: »

Well if you listen to the context of Micheal Martins impersonation you will hear him say that "when I was on trade missions to China ministers and officials would say to me etc......" So was that "reverse racism"?

My thinking, I could be wrong, is that you are a British citizen living in Ireland who is unfamiliar with Irish society. Using a British prime minister as an example of how to behave is not a good idea here.

We are very racist, towards irish travellers, who all happen to be white.

But how is this acceptable? It's not. I don't think we are necessarily talking about skin colour here. Personally, I don't think there is a difference between racial discrimination and ethnicity discrimination. I regard these both as racist. It is an ignorant assumption to make by the canvasser because you don't speak, live or look like the typical Irish person.
In this day and age people cannot presume anything about the person they are talking to.

Duke Leonal Felmet

I would like to take his opportunity to declare myself a non-racist.

(Of course, that is what you would expect a racist to say.)

:rolos:

Scotty #

rebel10 wrote: »

In this day and age people cannot presume anything about the person they are talking to.

...coz if they do, they'll be branded a racist!

rebel10

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I wouldn't make that assumption to be fair, though I'm from Dublin. In the cities - particularly Dublin and Belfast there are plenty of non-white/mixed race Irish people.

I think you will find that there are plenty of non white/mixed race Irish people all over the country, and not confined to the cities.

mikemac

You're overreacting OP

And many times I've answered the door to salesmen or canvassers and get asked if my parents are in and they don't want to talk to me. But I'm over 18 and my money and vote is as good as anybody elses

I don't come here screaming ageism

analucija

rebel10 wrote: »

In this day and age people cannot presume anything about the person they are talking to.

No, but if they do, that doesn't make them racist just ignorant. I hate racism but I can't say that I was ever victim of racism here and Irish at least where I live seem to be a lot less racist than people on the continent. I actually think that native irish are sometimes discriminated against a lot more than foreigners.

That being said things are never perfect.

rebel10

feelingstressed wrote: »

You're overreacting OP

And many times I've answered the door to salesmen or canvassers and get asked if my parents are in and they don't want to talk to me. But I'm over 18 and my money and vote is as good as anybody elses

I don't come here screaming ageism

Well many do come on here complaining of incidents like that. The Op is more than entitled to have a rant, just like anybody else.

rebel10

analucija wrote: »

No, but if they do, that doesn't make them racist just ignorant. I hate racism but I can't say that I was ever victim of racism here and Irish at least where I live seem to be a lot less racist than people on the continent. I actually think that native irish are sometimes discriminated against a lot more than foreigners.

That being said things are never perfect.

Well I am glad you have had good experiences in Ireland, but my original point was that it was ignorance. My response about racism was to another poster who spoke about the travelling community here, that this is unacceptable.

Duke Leonal Felmet

A question based on the dispute, above. If I were to perform a statistical social study and my conclusion was:

In the US, proportionally speaking, African-Americans are more likely to break the law than Caucasian-Americans.

Would that make me a racist? I don't think so. We all know that the reason why this statistic might be true is due to a lack of social justice and not because of racial identity. But the statement is a fact, nonetheless.

Hysterical application of racial equality can lead to needless censorship and misplaced character defamation. Care must be taken.

analucija

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

A question based on the dispute, above. If I were to perform a statistical social study and my conclusion was:

In the US, proportionally speaking, African-Americans are more likely to break the law than Caucasian-Americans.

Would that make me a racist? I don't think so. We all know that the reason why this statistic might be true is due to a lack of social justice and not because of racial identity. But the statement is a fact, nonetheless.

Hysterical application of racial equality can lead to needless censorship and misplaced character defamation. Care must be taken.

That analogy doesn't work. In your case it would have to be assumed that every black person is a criminal. Stereotypes can be very damaging but the one listed above is only a bit silly.

Buceph

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

In the US, proportionally speaking, African-Americans are more likely to break the law than Caucasian-Americans.

That's not quite correct. African-Americans are found guilty of breaking the law more often than Caucasian Americans, proportionally. There's no real way of knowing who is breaking the law the most.

d'Oracle

dublin99 wrote: »

Please look at this blog:

http://www.mamanpoulet.com/racial-profiling-on-the-canvass/

To deduce a party strategy from the actions of one canvasser is a little prejudiced, isn't it?

Monty Burnz

Squirm wrote: »

Both my mother and my mother-in-law have experienced THE EXACT SAME lines from Sky Broadband door-to-door sellers!!! I wonder if they are being briefed to try and sell to the "man of the house"...?? Or if this is just a more sexist society than I realised!!

It's more likely just a chance to pitch to somebody else in the house from a different angle - Sky Sports etc.

I don't think we are that backwards.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

A question based on the dispute, above. If I were to perform a statistical social study and my conclusion was:

In the US, proportionally speaking, African-Americans are more likely to break the law than Caucasian-Americans.

Would that make me a racist? I don't think so. We all know that the reason why this statistic might be true is due to a lack of social justice and not because of racial identity. But the statement is a fact, nonetheless.

Hysterical application of racial equality can lead to needless censorship and misplaced character defamation. Care must be taken.

I think I know what you mean but the way you've worded that could appear a bit racist.

Like it sounds as if African Americans are inherantly more likely to commit crime, whereas the reality is they are just more likely to come from socially disadvantaged backgrounds where crime is more commonplace.

Duke Leonal Felmet

analucija wrote: »

That analogy doesn't work. In your case it would have to be assumed that every black person is a criminal. Stereotypes can be very damaging but the one listed above is only a bit silly.

Garbage, a perfect example of hysteria at play. Where in the statement doe it imply that? Do you know what proportionality is?

You are a perfect example of my point.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Buceph wrote: »

That's not quite correct. African-Americans are found guilty of breaking the law more often than Caucasian Americans, proportionally. There's no real way of knowing who is breaking the law the most.

Good point, but its a simple thought exercise. A dangerous effort on this forum, I know...

Duke Leonal Felmet

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think I know what you mean but the way you've worded that could appear a bit racist.

Like it sounds as if African Americans are inherantly more likely to commit crime, whereas the reality is they are just more likely to come from socially disadvantaged backgrounds where crime is more commonplace.

Yeah, more care should be taken, but it isnt a racist statement. People need to realise this.

analucija

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Garbage, a perfect example of hysteria at play. Where in the statement doe it imply that? Do you know what proportionality is?

You are a perfect example of my point.

And you are a perfect example of somebody that doesn't know how to make analogies.

The canvaser in first post assumed: the person is black, statistically less likely to speak english, so i'm going to assume that he/she doesn't.

You example goes: the person is black, statistically more likely being a criminal... and then it ends...

The first example leads to certain action, yours doesn't, it is incomplete and completely invalid.

Duke Leonal Felmet

analucija wrote: »

And you are a perfect example of somebody that doesn't know how to make analogies.

The canvaser in first post assumed: the person is black, statistically less likely to speak english, so i'm going to assume that he/she doesn't.

You example goes: the person is black, statistically more likely being a criminal... and then it ends...

The first example leads to certain action, yours doesn't, it is incomplete and completely invalid.

I wasn't referring to the OP. So I guess that makes you a perfect example of a poster who breezes through threads, half-reading the content and then wasting peoples time with 'invalid' posts.

:sighface:

analucija

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I wasn't referring to the OP. So I guess that makes you a perfect example of a poster who breezes through threads, half-reading the content and then wasting peoples time with 'invalid' posts.

:sighface:

A question based on the dispute, above.

So this was not referring to to the OP and I was half-reading?

rebel10

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's more likely just a chance to pitch to somebody else in the house from a different angle - Sky Sports etc.

I don't think we are that backwards.

Then why not say "Can I speak to someone else in the house that may be interested?" He firstly shouldn't have said to me "Can I speak to your husband, he probably has the final say." And, secondly, he should not have assumed anything. Trust me, he was that backward.