The Libyan uprising

spank_inferno

Euroland wrote: »

With arrival of these machines we should expect civilian casualties skyrocketing through the roof, followed by the ground invasion.

Like your Al-Quaeda stuff, this again, is not likely.

If you yawned at the sky the AC-130 could drop a 40mm round right in your mouth.

If anything it is the best solution for close contact arial support with a more diverse calibre of weapon, ideal for hitting light/unarmoured vehicles.

And to entertain your notion of a land invasion....
This deployment is a step further away from boots on the ground as this plane, along with the A-10 thunderbolt do a better job at smaller munition hits than the likes of the F15-E.

BlaasForRafa

Euroland wrote: »

With arrival of these machines we should expect civilian casualties skyrocketing through the roof, followed by the ground invasion.

Its pretty easy to see that you really know nothing about how these types of aircraft operate.

K-9

Euroland wrote: »

What do you mean?

You seem to be saying the majority believe it was shot down by the rebels as a way of getting the no fly zone.

Manic Moran

The Libyan adventure represents Obama's 2nd big mistake during his first term in office

I agree, but for different reasons. If it's in the US interest to be bombing Gadaffii with the intent of getting him out of power, then so be it, let's do it. But don't do it in a half-arsed manner. Get it over and done with quickly, and move on. The coalition is one of the smallest gathered in years for such an operation, and for all the talk about approval from the Arab League, there is extremely vocal opposition from the African Union. We're not going to please everyone outside of the US, we've no idea in the US as to what we're supposed to be doing, and there is no defined end goal. We could be ending up with a split Libya with the UN Protectorate of Eastern Libya for an indeterminate amount of time. Wars are not occasions for half-measures.

But weren't you listening? He was saying they are already out. They're handing off to Nato. I mean that was the point of this speech to say look we got in and now we are getting out in just days. and he's right too - they basically are out. Sure they'll fly some missions but less and less and they won't be getting involved on the ground.

I am sure that in a year's time when Gadaffi and his offspring have had some time to recover and starts listing names on their 'countries that have pissed us off' list, they will duly note the distinction and the fact that the US only bombed the crap out of him as the primary for two weeks. Or maybe not.

It is clear that if today Libya would have multiple nukes and multiple long-distance delivering capabilities the bunch of crooks (US, France, UK) won’t bother to attack it and bomb it. Do you agree?

Under the presumption that Libya was willing to use them. You stated that Libya would not be so willing, which undermines the deterrence effect.

NTM

Euroland

Overheal wrote: »

I have, and in none of them do I find any evidence which proves that the Rebels are Ruled by Al Qaeda Terrorist and bribed Ghadaffi Elites. You'll have to help me out here.

1) OK, one of them, defector from Kaddafi elite:

Mustafa Abdul Jalil, Gaddafi's former justice minister. Jalil is presently the opposition leader of the Libyan National Transitional Council


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27733.htm

2) Another, Al-Qaeda linked:


Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime. Mr al-Hasidi admitted he had earlier fought against "the foreign invasion" in Afghanistan, before being "captured in 2002 in Peshwar, in Pakistan". He was later handed over to the US, and then held in Libya before being released in 2008. Idriss Deby Itno, Chad's president, said al-Qaeda had managed to pillage military arsenals in the Libyan rebel zone and acquired arms, "including surface-to-air missiles, which were then smuggled into their sanctuaries".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

Euroland

spank_inferno wrote: »

Like your Al-Quaeda stuff, this again, is not likely.

If you yawned at the sky the AC-130 could drop a 40mm round right in your mouth.

If anything it is the best solution for close contact arial support with a more diverse calibre of weapon, ideal for hitting light/unarmoured vehicles.

Do you admit that it can also be used against civilian cars and other civilian objects?

Euroland

spank_inferno wrote: »

And to entertain your notion of a land invasion....
This deployment is a step further away from boots on the ground as this plane, along with the A-10 thunderbolt do a better job at smaller munition hits than the likes of the F15-E.

Boots on the ground would be needed for taking over Tripoli. These planes can cause significant damage, but still somebody would have to walk on the ground street by street.

Euroland

K-9 wrote: »

You seem to be saying the majority believe it was shot down by the rebels as a way of getting the no fly zone.

Majority believes that it was done by the “rebels” themselves. And Western powers used it as an excuse to exercise the no-fly/no drive/no-walk zone.

RandomName2

Euroland wrote: »

1) OK, one of them, defector from Kaddafi elite:

Mustafa Abdul Jalil, Gaddafi's former justice minister. Jalil is presently the opposition leader of the Libyan National Transitional Council


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27733.htm

2) Another, Al-Qaeda linked:


Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime. Mr al-Hasidi admitted he had earlier fought against "the foreign invasion" in Afghanistan, before being "captured in 2002 in Peshwar, in Pakistan". He was later handed over to the US, and then held in Libya before being released in 2008. Idriss Deby Itno, Chad's president, said al-Qaeda had managed to pillage military arsenals in the Libyan rebel zone and acquired arms, "including surface-to-air missiles, which were then smuggled into their sanctuaries".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

So Al Qaeda is being surreptitiously being aided by Obama...

in order to create an Al Qaeda state in Libya...

because we all know how much Al Qaeda just loooooves the United States...

and will willingly sell oil to America for less than Gadaffi currently does.

Do you realise just how that logic works out as being completely flawed?

---

It is clear that your posts are just being used as a method of 'bash the West'; an MO that is not terribly edifying. More rational, and logical, is your unmitigated support of Gadaffi. At least being a Gadaffi-ite fits in well with hating everyone .

Gadaffi: the only machiavillian mogul who believes that your enemy's enemy is your natural nemesis. (okay, okay, Gadaffi has a couple of despots who like him - but there isn't a single political or cultural sphere that he can look to for support. Perhaps saying that he wanted to conquer all arab nations, whilst waging war on the Western infidel, had some sort of effect on his PR)

AlekSmart

spank_inferno wrote: »

Like your Al-Quaeda stuff, this again, is not likely.

If you yawned at the sky the AC-130 could drop a 40mm round right in your mouth.

If anything it is the best solution for close contact arial support with a more diverse calibre of weapon, ideal for hitting light/unarmoured vehicles.

And to entertain your notion of a land invasion....
This deployment is a step further away from boots on the ground as this plane, along with the A-10 thunderbolt do a better job at smaller munition hits than the likes of the F15-E.

For sure hardware such as the AC-130 are being deployed to (I suspect) keep things at arms length and to avoid yet more GI`s coming home in bodybags from yet another ungrateful region.

However when one resorts to this methodology one must be prepared for the downside of such remote warfare as was demonstrated all too clearly back in 2007

http://www.collateralmurder.com/

It is equally interesting that the soldier behind the Iraq video footage being released remains under close military arrest.

This libyan adventure and the mention of deploying assets such as "Puff the Magic Dragon" only make it more likely that we will see more Bradley Mannings being dealt with by the US Military.

Dyr

AlekSmart wrote: »

For sure hardware such as the AC-130 are being deployed to (I suspect) keep things at arms length and to avoid yet more GI`s coming home in bodybags from yet another ungrateful region.

However when one resorts to this methodology one must be prepared for the downside of such remote warfare as was demonstrated all too clearly back in 2007

http://www.collateralmurder.com/

It is equally interesting that the soldier behind the Iraq video footage being released remains under close military arrest.

This libyan adventure and the mention of deploying assets such as "Puff the Magic Dragon" only make it more likely that we will see more Bradley Mannings being dealt with by the US Military.

Puff the magic dragon was the ac-37, they'd need to drag one out of a museum to redeploy that

daithicarr

After another chaotic advance the rebels seem to be in full flight yet again.
How can they be so utterly incompetent as a fighting force , surely there must be some among them who have military experience and after enough set backs a sizable portion willing to listen. Instead of preparing defences or trying to co ordinate they charge back and forth wildly and are continuously outmaneuvered.
And are the reports of 17,000 volunteers and 8,000+ defected rebel soldiers pure fantasy ?
Not to mind the defected special forces who are supposedly operating in the desert.

opinion guy

daithicarr wrote: »

After another chaotic advance the rebels seem to be in full flight yet again.
How can they be so utterly incompetent as a fighting force , surely there must be some among them who have military experience and after enough set backs a sizable portion willing to listen. Instead of preparing defences or trying to co ordinate they charge back and forth wildly and are continuously outmaneuvered.
And are the reports of 17,000 volunteers and 8,000+ defected rebel soldiers pure fantasy ?
Not to mind the defected special forces who are supposedly operating in the desert.

I suspect communications may be an issue too.

daithicarr

Communications and organization are necessary for any sort of co ordination, How on earth they can still think they can prevail by simply milling about on pickups is beyond me. They probably spend more time shooting at each other. Mistakenly

Manic Moran

Bambi wrote: »

Puff the magic dragon was the ac-37, they'd need to drag one out of a museum to redeploy that

AC-47, actually.

NTM

recedite

daithicarr wrote: »

Instead of preparing defences or trying to co ordinate they charge back and forth wildly and are continuously outmaneuvered.
.

Classic cavalry tactics of the Berber tribesman. Worked well enough against the crusaders in the middle ages.
Never worked against a modern disciplined army though.
I suppose we will eventually see a two State east/west partition solution... when they finally agree on the exact half-way point.

RandomName2

daithicarr wrote: »

Communications and organization are necessary for any sort of co ordination, How on earth they can still think they can prevail by simply milling about on pickups is beyond me. They probably spend more time shooting at each other. Mistakenly

Well it is entirely impromptu.

It's like

"We're all against Gadaffi! If we attack he'll fall"
"Cool. What can I do?"
"Here's a gun - go west my son! The front line is Sirit! I mean Ras Lanuf. Oh crap it's Benghazi..."

RandomName2

recedite wrote: »

Classic cavalry tactics of the Berber tribesman. Worked well enough against the crusaders in the middle ages.
Never worked against a modern disciplined army though.
I suppose we will eventually see a two State east/west partition solution... when they finally agree on the exact half-way point.

If Paddy Power's taking bets I'm putting money on the rebels being entirely crushed in the end. :pac:

Misrata is probably going to fall any day now - the only problem Gadaffi has is covering the open ground between his front lines and Benghazi. Once he's figured out a way to do that then the rebellion is essentially over ( Tobruk is an unlikely place for much of a last stand... I am reminded of WW2 )

Poccington

According to Sky News, the Libyan Foreign Minister has arrived in the UK and is resigning his post.

Euroland

Poccington wrote: »

According to Sky News, the Libyan Foreign Minister has arrived in the UK and is resigning his post.

Minister of Foreign Affairs since 2009, former head of Libyan Intelligent Services Agency (1994-2009).

Another "tyranny" defector who would lead the "rebels"?


Below are the "tyrants", which already joined the "rebels":

1) Suleiman Mahmoud is a senior military officer in Libya. Formerly Muammar Gaddafi's army commander (Major General) in Tobruk, he was one the first amongst the army hierarchy to support the 2011 uprising

2) Abdul Fatah Younis is a senior military officer in Libya. He held the rank of General and the post of Minister of Interior, but resigned on 22 February 2011, amid the 2011 Libyan protests. He was considered a key supporter of Muammar al-Gaddafi or even No. 2 in the Libyan government.

3) Khalifa Belqasim Haftar is a senior military officer (Colonel) in Libya. Formerly one of Muammar Gaddafi's army commanders in the Chadian–Libyan conflict, he fell out with the regime when Libya lost the war, and sought exile in the United States. In 2011 he returned to Libya to support the uprising. On March 24, 2011, it was announced that he would be taking command of the rebel army.

4) Omar Mokhtar El-Hariri is a leading figure of the National Transitional Council of Libya and has been designated as the Minister of Military Affairs. He is in control of the Libyan People's Army and the Free Libyan Air Force. El-Hariri was involved in the initial 1969 coup against the monarchy that brought Gaddafi into his 42 year reign over Libya. He organised a plot to overthrow Gaddafi in 1975. When the coup was uncovered, 300 men were arrested and 4 of them died during interrogation. Of the remainder 21 were sentenced to death, including El-Hariri. He was imprisoned for 15 years from 1975 to 1990 under a death sentence, with 4 1/2 years in solitary confinement. Gaddafi commuted the sentence in 1990 and El-Hariri was subsequently placed under house arrest until the 2011 revolt.

5) Mustafa Abdul Jalil (born 1952) is a Libyan politician. He was the Minister of Justice (unofficially, the Secretary of the General People's Committee) under Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi. During the 2011 Libyan civil war, Abdul Jalil has been identified as the Chairman of the National Transitional Council based in Benghazi, which controls much of the country in opposition to Gaddafi in Tripoli, although this position is contested by others in the uprising due to his past connections to Gaddafi's regime.

6) Mahmoud Jibril is a Libyan politician who, since 23 March 2011, is the current Prime Minister of the Libyan Republic, one of two entities currently disputing control of Libya. He is also head of the Executive Team of the National Transitional Council. His government has recently been recognized as the "sole legitimate representative" of Libya by France but, at the current time, recognition has not been given by the great majority of United Nations member states. Since 2007, he has fulfilled a function in the Gaddafi regime as head of Nedb (National Economic Development Board), being the key man for penetrating in Libya the economic interests of United States and United Kingdom, promoting privatization and liberalization of national economy.

7) Gaddafi's sixth son was Saif al-Arab al-Gaddafi ("the sword of the Arabs"). Saif was appointed a military commander in the Libyan Army during the 2011 Libyan uprising, but defected to the opposition, and served in the Libyan People's Army.

Apparently "rebels" now are fully headed by multiple Kaddafi "tyranny" figures and backed by Al-Qaeda terrorists...

Euroland

daithicarr wrote: »

After another chaotic advance the rebels seem to be in full flight yet again.
How can they be so utterly incompetent as a fighting force , surely there must be some among them who have military experience and after enough set backs a sizable portion willing to listen. Instead of preparing defences or trying to co ordinate they charge back and forth wildly and are continuously outmaneuvered.
And are the reports of 17,000 volunteers and 8,000+ defected rebel soldiers pure fantasy ?
Not to mind the defected special forces who are supposedly operating in the desert.

According to Sky News and BBC there are up to 1,000 Western soldiers (mainly Special Forces/CIA) on the ground + up to 250-300 experienced “rebels” (mainly Al-Qaeda and former Libyan Army soldiers) +3,000-4,000 inexperienced “rebels”. Most of the time fighting only 250-300 experienced “rebels” (many of them already became so popular on TV so you could recognize their faces), with some support from Western soldiers. Inexperienced “rebels” only periodically join the experienced ones only when they escape back to Ajdabiya and Benghazi. “Rebels” already periodically fight with each other, as there are disagreements on what to do next. Inexperienced “rebels” are unwilling to fight and joined the revolt only hoping that it would end up quickly and Kaddafi would either go or would be killed by bombing.

Jonny7

Euroland wrote: »

Yes, just re-read my previous posts in this and in parallel threads. I’m tired to provide proof separately to everyone.

Here are some "quotes" from yourself in which you provide no proof or evidence or source - you are constantly spamming both threads with this stuff

Kosovo is run by Albanian mafia, involved in muss murder of Serbs, drug trafficking, and body parts trafficking

Chechens and Tibetans were inspired and financed by CIA

Yugoslavia was destabilized initially by German intelligent service and then by CIA

Sudan as well was split by the Americans, who inspired and ignited the civil war and finally separated oil-reach regions from the country

And back on topic about Libya..

rebels receive weapons via Egypt, this why many of them portray on TV with weapons not used in Libyan army, and in absolutely new condition

a lot of Eastern-European paramedics/doctors (several thousands), who still remain in Libya, report the opposite, they get great support from pro-Gaddafi forces and were abused and forced to work without their will by the so called “rebels”

“the rebels” are well-trained young men coming from Egypt, Tunisia, Palestine

Libyan police force was framed and later many of them were killed by the so called “rebels”, everything was prepared in advance

The rebels then change into Al Qaeda

But then, don’t forget that Libyan “rebels” are controlled by Al-Qaeda (and of course by the US).

Who are controlled by..

Extremely Greedy Americans, British and French in their War for Libyan Oil are ready to side with any evil, including the Al-Qaeda militants

And Al Qaeda suddenly have an airforce..

Al-Qaeda’s plane was mistakenly/or intentionally shot down by Al-Qaeda itself. This was used as a reason for beginning Western bombing campaign against Libya

Which then turns back into a 'rebel' plane..

That was the rebel’s plane, which was shot by either “the rebels” themselves or the Gaddafi forces (both claim the success).

And back to the greatest myth again..

Yes, just re-read my previous posts in this and in parallel threads. I’m tired to provide proof separately to everyone

Its a wild crazy hunch I know.. but, maybe, just maybe, are you just making this all up as you go along?

/too much time on my hands

Euroland

Jonny7 wrote: »

Here are some "quotes" from yourself in which you provide no proof or evidence or source - you are constantly spamming both threads with this stuff

And back on topic about Libya..

The rebels then change into Al Qaeda

Who are controlled by..

And Al Qaeda suddenly have an airforce..

Which then turns back into a 'rebel' plane..

And back to the greatest myth again..

Its a wild crazy hunch I know.. but, maybe, just maybe, are you just making this all up as you go along?

/too much time on my hands

Just read all my previous posts in both of the threads with necessary attention, most of the answers are there, I won't post the same answers/links for 2 or 3 times.

AlekSmart

Bambi: Puff the magic dragon was the ac-37, they'd need to drag one out of a museum to redeploy that

Mind you the Mojave Desert probably still could deliver up a few if the crews could be found to fly them ??

Manic Moran wrote: »

AC-47, actually.

NTM

Thanks MM,I was using PtMD or "Spooky" to signify the "Gunship" role of the AC130`s rather than the humanitarian roles which ordinary C130`s might be allocated to......:)

Manic Moran

AlekSmart wrote: »

Mind you the Mojave Desert probably still could deliver up a few if the crews could be found to fly them ??

Sonoran Desert, perhaps. Mojave is jetliners.

Thanks MM,I was using PtMD or "Spooky" to signify the "Gunship" role of the AC130`s rather than the humanitarian roles which ordinary C130`s might be allocated to......:)

AC-130 is "Spectre"

NTM

ISAW

Euroland wrote: »

Just read all my previous posts in both of the threads with necessary attention, most of the answers are there, I won't post the same answers/links for 2 or 3 times.

Really? Where is the evidence supporting the following claims?
Assuming the quotes above are true that is.

Quote:
Kosovo is run by Albanian mafia, involved in muss murder of Serbs, drug trafficking, and body parts trafficking
Quote:
Chechens and Tibetans were inspired and financed by CIA
Quote:
Yugoslavia was destabilized initially by German intelligent service and then by CIA
Quote:
Sudan as well was split by the Americans, who inspired and ignited the civil war and finally separated oil-reach regions from the country

Overheal

^ Oh and maybe someone can help me out here, someone else the other day claimed that the Special Forces were securing Oil Assets?? Any word on that?

AlekSmart

Overheal wrote: »

^ Oh and maybe someone can help me out here, someone else the other day claimed that the Special Forces were securing Oil Assets?? Any word on that?

Would Special Forces be utilized in such a role ?

From what much of the media coverage tells us,they are all about "Humanitarian Aid" ...Hearts & Minds etc etc....Are`nt they ?

Jonny7

Overheal wrote: »

^ Oh and maybe someone can help me out here, someone else the other day claimed that the Special Forces were securing Oil Assets?? Any word on that?

I've just read about spec ops liaising with rebels, setting up communications, etc.. whereabouts did you read about the oilfields.. would be interesting to know

The rebels want to get the oilfields working for them asap.. I'm not sure what the structure is in the East of the country, but I can only believe that things are not looking good supply wise.

Qatar will buy the oil if they sell it, Benghazi is a big city, must be running dry soon.

Securing oil assets is plausible if the rebels are lacking the disipline to do anything. That said they are a ragtag bunch, teachers, military, blue collar, everything.

Russia is still fuming over all of this after the amount of contracts they have/had with Libya

Overheal

whereabouts did you read about the oilfields.. would be interesting to know

From another poster on boards, making baseless accusations apparently. Just confirming.