FG lies on property taxation

Auctionmcd

I am thoroughly sick and tired that apparently FG have got away with claiming that they will not impose a Property tax. This is simply not true. They will not directly impose it but ill empower Local County Councils with the means to generate revenue by introducing Property taxes at their discretion and similarly increase rates including water rates.
I point you to an extract from the FG manifesto which clearly gives this power to the Councils (Which predominately are controlled by FG) and please bear in mind that these councillors have a 4 year period of grace before they need to answer to the electorate and as such to the homeowners they will be punishing severely.



Fine Gael will restore power to Local Government. Recognising the disconnect between local authorities,
councillors and their respective communities Fine Gael will empower local authorities to solve problems at a local level.

16.1 Local Government Reform


Restoring Power to Local Level:
We will confront the traditional, centralised top down approach to delivery and responsibility of local services by transferring powers and services from unelected Quangos to
Local Authorities in areas such as job and housing supports. By doing so we intend to make local authorities more relevant to the communities they serve and to give people a say in how local services are provided.


Now tell me where the term Stealth taxation comes from? I believe FG have many hidden Stealth taxes in their manifesto which makes them appear like a low tax party

As I said in the other thread,local councillors have too to be reelected so will need to justify any revenue they raise or face the boot.

So I don't see the problem.The funding has to come from somewhere and it's as difficult for the politicians in a local sense to be unfair as it is in the national sense.
Theres no loss of accountability here.
Most civilised democracies have local councils with finance raising powers.The money has to come from somewhere,whether local or national it amounts to the same cost to the tax payer.

ednwireland

aaah another low post count user, where you all coming from ?

telekon

jmayo wrote: »

Well it makes a change to see a low count poster posting positively about FG.
The amount of low count posters who see SF as the only party to put the people first or the amount of low count posters that believe for all ff's sins they are the only party with the right ideas for the future is kinda noticable.

Obviusly FG have finally woken up to internet forums.

In this thread? Where???

jmayo

telekon wrote: »

In this thread? Where???

Ooops got it wrong :mad:
Only read down to restoring power to local government, not entire post....

Ah well obviously FG haven't discovered the web yet and the poster is one of those other types of "objective" posters.

telekon

jmayo wrote: »

Ooops got it wrong :mad:
Only read down to restoring power to local government, not entire post....

Ah well obviously FG haven't discovered the web yet and the poster is one of those other types of "objective" posters.

LOL!

Oh well, your post might encourage first timers to come on board to counteract all the attack trolls...

syklops

One of the major criticisms of the sitting government has been so called 'parish pump politics", where by local issues get dealt with on a national level either in the Dail or in committee meetings. Surely this is an attempt by FG to take local issues back to the locality.

Auctionmcd

jmayo wrote: »

Ooops got it wrong :mad:
Only read down to restoring power to local government, not entire post....

Ah well obviously FG haven't discovered the web yet and the poster is one of those other types of "objective" posters.

Firstly I do not support SF and I used to vote for Billy Timmins father Goddfrey, have since become apolitical. I vote for the person not the party but am sick of lies.

telekon

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Firstly I do not support SF and I used to vote for Billy Timmins father Goddfrey, have since become apolitical. I vote for the person not the party but am sick of lies.

Are you not embarrassed to admit this? :rolleyes:

Auctionmcd

syklops wrote: »

One of the major criticisms of the sitting government has been so called 'parish pump politics", where by local issues get dealt with on a national level either in the Dail or in committee meetings. Surely this is an attempt by FG to take local issues back to the locality.

Do you really believe FG or any other party care about you or me?, its all about votes, they are hiding this stealth tax so they can claim that it isnt them bringing it in. All negative posters here please show me where they state clearly that they are bringing in a property tax? The fact is they claim they arent, THAT IS PURE LIES

Auctionmcd

telekon wrote: »

Are you not embarrassed to admit this? :rolleyes:

Why would I be ashamed to vote for a person who I believe has the characteristics to be fair and honest regardless of political party, I dont give a damn about which party they belong to. There is a lack of sincerely honest politicians and IF I can find one that I believe in they will get my vote.

Auctionmcd

ednwireland wrote: »

aaah another low post count user, where you all coming from ?

God you have a poor attitude, just because I havent posted many times before just means I am selective about what I talk about. Doesnt reflect on my honesty or the validity of my opinion. Basically I made a comment based on the FG manifesto which I am surely entitled to do as I still believe this is a democracy albeit a declining one with our sovereignty being eroded daily and FG trying to discard our 'National' language.

If you have a problem with my right to express an opinion please feel free to contact the moderators and get my thread removed.

telekon

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Why would I be ashamed to vote for a person who I believe has the characteristics to be fair and honest regardless of political party, I dont give a damn about which party they belong to. There is a lack of sincerely honest politicians and IF I can find one that I believe in they will get my vote.

Is this even possible? Ever hear of the whip system? Politicians vote the way they're told.

Monty Burnz

So FG are going to balance the budget by two thirds with spending cuts and by one third with tax increases.

Labour are going to do it with one third spending cuts (have they specified where yet?) and two thirds tax increases.

Therefore Labour are saying they will raise taxes by twice the amount that FG do.

Therefore, anybody railing against FG for tax rises (such as introducing a property tax, or whatever) should never, ever, in a million years vote for labour as they are going to raise your taxes by twice as much by their own admission.

Auctionmcd

telekon wrote: »

Is this even possible? Ever hear of the whip system? Politicians vote the way they're told.

I agree totally, we the voting public cannot effect the policies. Thats why I highlighted IF in my statement. Its like finding a needle in a haystack but without hope there is nothing and I hope that somewhere there are politicians with some common decency that will voice the opinions of the people rather than the party line. NAIVE I KNOW

telekon

Auctionmcd wrote: »

I agree totally, we the voting public cannot effect the policies. Thats why I highlighted IF in my statement. Its like finding a needle in a haystack but without hope there is nothing and I hope that somewhere there are politicians with some common decency that will voice the opinions of the people rather than the party line. NAIVE I KNOW

So you're voting Independent, yea?

Monty Burnz

Auctionmcd wrote: »

FG trying to discard our 'National' language.

If you are so keen on it, why are you posting in English?

Oh yeah, I know why - it's because forcing Irish down the throats of everybody for the last 90 years is a FAILED POLICY. Maybe a new approach is needed? Or should we carry on with a policy that everybody knows is not working? :rolleyes:

Auctionmcd

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So FG are going to balance the budget by two thirds with spending cuts and by one third with tax increases.

Labour are going to do it with one third spending cuts (have they specified where yet?) and two thirds tax increases.

Therefore Labour are saying they will raise taxes by twice the amount that FG do.

Therefore, anybody railing against FG for tax rises (such as introducing a property tax, or whatever) should never, ever, in a million years vote for labour as they are going to raise your taxes by twice as much by their own admission.

That is my point. FG say 1/3 through taxation but this excludes the stealth taxes they will be imposing at local government level. So the cuts will end up being far more. They are saying they will cut 1/3 through direct taxation at a national level but fail to disclose their local level taxation.

Monty Burnz

Auctionmcd wrote: »

That is my point. FG say 1/3 through taxation but this excludes the stealth taxes they will be imposing at local government level. So the cuts will end up being far more. They are saying they will cut 1/3 through direct taxation at a national level but fail to disclose their local level taxation.

Sorry, your point makes no sense at all - if they raise more money by increasing taxes, then why would they also cut spending more?

So you understand this stuff at all?

Auctionmcd

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If you are so keen on it, why are you posting in English?

Oh yeah, I know why - it's because forcing Irish down the throats of everybody for the last 90 years is a FAILED POLICY. Maybe a new approach is needed? Or should we carry on with a policy that everybody knows is not working? :rolleyes:

I never said I was keen on it and no I dont speak Irish. I didnt say the system was good or bad but surely discarding the Irish language cannot be good for future generations?
If you could explain how FG policy will help promote the Irish language it might help?

telekon

Auctionmcd wrote: »

I never said I was keen on it and no I dont speak Irish. I didnt say the system was good or bad but surely discarding the Irish language cannot be good for future generations?
If you could explain how FG policy will help promote the Irish language it might help?

You dont speak our 'National' language?!? :eek::eek::eek:


Uafasach ar fad!

Auctionmcd

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Sorry, your point makes no sense at all - if they raise more money by increasing taxes, then why would they also cut spending more?

So you understand this stuff at all?

Because they have overestimated growth and will compensate this overestimation but cutting spending and increasing taxes.
Dont proclaim them to be the saviours here, they have not stated that the 30,000 public job cuts will be on the higher earners only.
They have not declared this stealth taxation policy.

If you believe they will not through local councils bring in a property tax then say so, and when they are elected and this becomes a fact remember that.

jimaneejeebus

Originally Posted by ednwireland
aaah another low post count user, where you all coming from ?

Auctionmcd wrote: »

If you have a problem with my right to express an opinion please feel free to contact the moderators and get my thread removed.

It's ok-you probably didn't realise you were speaking to the king of the internet?

Auctionmcd

telekon wrote: »

You dont speak our 'National' language?!? :eek::eek::eek:


Uafasach ar fad!

Do you speak it fluently?

telekon

jimaneejeebus wrote: »

It's ok-you probably didn't realise you were speaking to the king of the internet?

That a question or a statment? If its the former, I can assure you he's not the king of the internet.

Monty Burnz

Auctionmcd wrote: »

If you could explain how FG policy will help promote the Irish language it might help?

If it is an issue for you, then I suggest you look up the rationale for their proposed changes - changes which are intended to save the language, not kill it.

The fact that you don't even speak the language makes you look a bit hypocritical in my view - it doesn't sound like you care enough about the language to learn it properly yourself.

telekon

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Do you speak it fluently?

I speak it enough to get by. Got a B in my leaving. I dont know why youre getting so hot and bothered about something you admit to knowing nothing about??

Auctionmcd

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If it is an issue for you, then I suggest you look up the rationale for their proposed changes - changes which are intended to save the language, not kill it.

The fact that you don't even speak the language makes you look a bit hypocritical in my view - it doesn't sound like you care enough about the language to learn it properly yourself.

I did learn the language unfortunately like many in the 80's I was forced to emigrate and had to learn numerous other languages to secure employment. In that time I had to do what I had to do to survive.

Monty Burnz

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Because they have overestimated growth and will compensate this overestimation but cutting spending and increasing taxes.

So Labour will have to more than double FG's proposed taxes? Because they are using the same growth assumptions as FG. Man, the news just gets worse and worse for the Labour Party.

Auctionmcd

telekon wrote: »

I speak it enough to get by. Got a B in my leaving. I dont know why youre getting so hot and bothered about something you admit to knowing nothing about??

Well obviously the system worked to some extent with you. I am bothered for exactly that reason. I cannot speak the language but I would like my children to be able to and my grandchildren. Does it bother you that a lot of decisions are being made by EUROPE and not Ireland?
Maybe I am a little uneducated as to exactly what the parties propose to do to save our language but in my opinion and I say it is just my opinion I believe removing it as a core subject can only do harm.

But as this is a democracy I can freely state my opinion as you can state yours.

Black Swan

REMINDER...
A few of the posts on this thread are tending to get a bit personal, and going off-topic (e.g., talking about post count, etc). Please focus on the thread topic, not each other. Thanks, Black Swan

dsmythy

Nationally Fine Gael are not going to introduce a property tax. If a Labour led council introduces one in their particular council for example then it's hardly Fine Gael's fault.

yosemite_sam

Auctionmcd wrote: »

I am thoroughly sick and tired that apparently FG have got away with claiming that they will not impose a Property tax. This is simply not true. They will not directly impose it but ill empower Local County Councils with the means to generate revenue by introducing Property taxes at their discretion and similarly increase rates including water rates.
I point you to an extract from the FG manifesto which clearly gives this power to the Councils (Which predominately are controlled by FG) and please bear in mind that these councillors have a 4 year period of grace before they need to answer to the electorate and as such to the homeowners they will be punishing severely.



Fine Gael will restore power to Local Government. Recognising the disconnect between local authorities,
councillors and their respective communities Fine Gael will empower local authorities to solve problems at a local level.

16.1 Local Government Reform


Restoring Power to Local Level:
We will confront the traditional, centralised top down approach to delivery and responsibility of local services by transferring powers and services from unelected Quangos to
Local Authorities in areas such as job and housing supports. By doing so we intend to make local authorities more relevant to the communities they serve and to give people a say in how local services are provided.


Now tell me where the term Stealth taxation comes from? I believe FG have many hidden Stealth taxes in their manifesto which makes them appear like a low tax party

A property tax is a fair way to raise revenue, I pay business rate 12000 euro a year and think it only right that the burden should be shared

Monty Burnz

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Well obviously the system worked to some extent with you. I am bothered for exactly that reason. I cannot speak the language but I would like my children to be able to and my grandchildren.

I feel the same. That is why I would rather my children actually made a positive choice to learn to speak a living language, rather than be forced to learn a load of poetry and other guff in a dead language that has as much relevance in modern Ireland as Latin (I had to learn both at school).

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Does it bother you that a lot of decisions are being made by EUROPE and not Ireland?

Yes it does. But the language issue is something we can try to address ourselves, and the current compulsory sytem clearly has not worked.

Auctionmcd

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So Labour will have to more than double FG's proposed taxes? Because they are using the same growth assumptions as FG. Man, the news just gets worse and worse for the Labour Party.

That is correct Labours direct taxation will be approx. double FG but spending cuts ie. social welfare, rent allowance, public sector pay will be half. But NO STEALTH TAXES. I believe, be it FF FG Labour SF or Greens are all chasing votes and as usual promising the best scenario possible. We are in for dark times ahead and they will be much darker than what is being estimated by all the politicians. I wouldnt vote independant as I believe it is a wasted vote and my only options are FG or Labour as they will probably make up the next government. So as was stated in other post the electorate must choose the best of a bad lot. I do not wish to come across as aggressive or anti FG or any other party, I am just so pissed off at our political system telling lies to us and leaving us in a mess.

Auctionmcd

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I feel the same. That is why I would rather my children actually made a positive choice to learn to speak a living language, rather than be forced to learn a load of poetry and other guff in a dead language that has as much relevance in modern Ireland as Latin (I had to learn both at school).

Yes it does. But the language issue is something we can try to address ourselves, and the current compulsory sytem clearly has not worked.

Well I can agree that we both have the same wishes just differing ideas how it can be achieved. Maybe you are right maybe I am but either way I respect your opinion as it is your honest belief.

Auctionmcd

dsmythy wrote: »

Nationally Fine Gael are not going to introduce a property tax. If a Labour led council introduces one in their particular council for example then it's hardly Fine Gael's fault.

I just want to say that the majority of councils are controlled by FG councillors. Please correct me if I am wrong.

dsmythy

Auctionmcd wrote: »

I just want to say that the majority of councils are controlled by FG councillors. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I don't actually know though I think they are likely to since they are the biggest local representative party. I'd say many would need support from other parties in each council area to get a local property tax through. I'm all for more powers to local government. Hopefully it will get people looking at councillors rather than national TD's for local problems and accountability.

Auctionmcd

dsmythy wrote: »

I don't actually know though I think they are likely to since they are the biggest local representative party. I'd say many would need support from other parties in each council area to get a local property tax through. I'm all for more powers to local government. Hopefully it will get people looking at councillors rather than national TD's for local problems and accountability.

Maybe so, but then there should be no need to disguise the fact that FG are passing the buck onto the councillors for property tax, they should come out and say that they will be introducing property tax but it will be decided at local authority level. I just think they should come clean on it instead of political games.

jmayo

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Firstly I do not support SF and I used to vote for Billy Timmins father Goddfrey, have since become apolitical. I vote for the person not the party but am sick of lies.

But the party is the ultimate deciding factor.

For example you vote for local ffer, he "appears" honest enough and is hardworking.

But then he goes into the Dáil and supports an unethical toe rag for taoiseach, he thinks it is ok that his party's leader and the lead of the country can't explain wads of cash in wall safes.
He backs disasterous legislation or lack of and he sees no problem with his party allowing the economy be subverted for the benefit of a few party supporters.

Subsequently he backs a complete moron for taoiseach.

Then he votes support in a liar and votes support to financial legislation that will cost every single one of us, man, woman and child anything upto 20,000.

Now please tell me why would you vote for this guy again ?

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Why would I be ashamed to vote for a person who I believe has the characteristics to be fair and honest regardless of political party, I dont give a damn about which party they belong to. There is a lack of sincerely honest politicians and IF I can find one that I believe in they will get my vote.

One cannot be fair and honest and then go vote support for unethical politicans as party leader or vote support for a slanderer and liar.

Just like one can't claim a politican is fair and honest if they refuse to condemn the brutal killing of a member of our police force and then collect the killers from jail.
One can't either say that the colleagues of the politican are fiar and honest if they condone such behaviour from their colleague.

jimaneejeebus wrote: »

Originally Posted by ednwireland
aaah another low post count user, where you all coming from ?

It's ok-you probably didn't realise you were speaking to the king of the internet?

You are fairly new around here :rolleyes: so let me tell you this.
That poster is not the king of the internet, but they do however store it in a special box and if you are nice they will let you see it.

Now be nice and you never know they may let you and your other newly arrived friends see it.

Auctionmcd

jmayo wrote: »

But the party is the ultimate deciding factor.

For example you vote for local ffer, he "appears" honest enough and is hardworking.

But then he goes into the Dáil and supports an unethical toe rag for taoiseach, he thinks it is ok that his party's leader and the lead of the country can't explain wads of cash in wall safes.
He backs disasterous legislation or lack of and he sees no problem with his party allowing the economy be subverted for the benefit of a few party supporters.

Subsequently he backs a complete moron for taoiseach.

Then he votes support in a liar and votes support to financial legislation that will cost every single one of us, man, woman and child anything upto 20,000.

Now please tell me why would you vote for this guy again ?



One cannot be fair and honest and then go vote support for unethical politicans as party leader or vote support for a slanderer and liar.

Just like one can't claim a politican is fair and honest if they refuse to condemn the brutal killing of a member of our police force and then collect the killers from jail.
One can't either say that the colleagues of the politican are fiar and honest if they condone such behaviour from their colleague.



You are fairly new around here :rolleyes: so let me tell you this.
That poster is not the king of the internet, but they do however store it in a special box and if you are nice they will let you see it.

Now be nice and you never know they may let you and your other newly arrived friends see it.

Firstly I intend to vote as if I dont it is an insult to democracy
Secondly I would not vote for SF as they have not proved to me that they are seperate from the IRA
Thirdly I have to vote for a mainstream party otherwise its a wasted vote.
Taking all the above into consideration I have to vote for the person as none of the political parties have any thorough answers and saying that its a case of voting for the best of a bad lot.

local taxes need to be fairly raised-its proressive imho to do that as its locally accountable.

As for irish...for fairness if this thread is about that change the title,its off topic.
Fg you'd swear from what the op is saying want to ban the language...they actually want it to live..as with current policy its dying.

Nice to see balance on the forum now,with the addition of a few fg bashing threads to the sf , labour and ff ones .. Is there an election on? :rolleyes:

Auctionmcd

Deleted User wrote: »

local taxes need to be fairly raised-its proressive imho to do that as its locally accountable.

As for irish...for fairness if this thread is about that change the title,its off topic.
Fg you'd swear fom what the op is saying want to ban the language...they actually want it to live..as with current policy its dying.

Nice to see balance on the forum now,with the addition of a few fg bashing threads to the sf , labour and ff ones .. Is there an election on? :rolleyes:

Hi again BB, I dont want to bash FG I just want them to be honest about their policies on Property Tax.

As I said to you on the other thread,it's all there in black and white in their manifesto.
They are not rising any new income taxes and they want councils to be responsible if needed to raise their own finance locally.

That couldn't be clearer.
It's totally honest and in fact if you disagree strongly enough with that policy to over rule policies you may like,then you are informed so vote accordingly.

Using the terms dishonesty or lies is ridiculous frankly because it's all there open and transparent what they stand for..

Auctionmcd

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said to you on the other thread,it's all there in black and white in their manifesto.
They are not rising any new income taxes and they want councils to be responsible if needed to raise their own finance locally.

That couldn't be clearer.
It's totally honest and in fact if you disagree strongly enough with that policy to over rule policies you may like,then you are informed so vote accordingly.

Using the terms dishonesty or lies is ridiculous frankly because it's all there open and transparent what they stand for..

OK then tell me that it is not logical to assume that Councils will have to introduce property tax and that this policy FG proposes will give them the means to do that?
They cant claim they are a party that will not introduce porperty tax when in fact they are providing the means to introduce it but just using local councils which they control the vast majority of to impose it in their stead.
Am sorry but I dont agree that they can claim one thing and do another albeit by indirect means. They will be responsible for giving the power to impose the tax therefore it is an indirect form of taxation or stealth taxation.

My point is,they are giving the local council's the power to do so and this is transparent.Theres no dishonesty about it.
If an FG controlled council introduce one,you can point out to them if it's against FG policy and call them hypocrites then.
If you are looking for a party that won't facilitate some kind of property tax or other to fund local government,you'll be looking a long time.

Auctionmcd

Deleted User wrote: »

My point is,they are giving the local council's the power to do so and this is transparent.Theres no dishonesty about it.
If an FG controlled council introduce one,you can point out to them if it's against FG policy and call them hypocrites then.
If you are looking for a party that won't facilitate some kind of property tax or other to fund local government,you'll be looking a long time.

Be a bit late by then calling them hypocrites.

Auctionmcd

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Be a bit late by then calling them hypocrites.

Looks like FG might get an overall majority, time to see if this is stealth taxation or just rumours? I know how I feel and what history tells us about the FG party.

Auctionmcd

Deleted User wrote: »

.

Using the terms dishonesty or lies is ridiculous frankly because it's all there open and transparent what they stand for..

I missed this earlier, saying politics is open and transparent and that their manifesto is clear and easily understandable is not very correct? I wish they would put the figures or caps on what the property tax and increased rates will be. That might give us an idea on what their Tax policy will be in real terms.

Auctionmcd

Auctionmcd wrote: »

I missed this earlier, saying politics is open and transparent and that their manifesto is clear and easily understandable is not very correct? I wish they would put the figures or caps on what the property tax and increased rates will be. That might give us an idea on what their Tax policy will be in real terms.

You miss my point.
The policy for local revenue raising is there.
If you disagree and believe it should all come from central funds [income tax :eek:] then you can choose to vote for someone else.
Bumping this thread all the time ain't changing that fact.

Monty Burnz

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Looks like FG might get an overall majority, time to see if this is stealth taxation or just rumours? I know how I feel and what history tells us about the FG party.

Here's what I feel and know.

Fianna Failure ruined us. No chance of a vote.

They left us a huge hole in the public finances. We all agree on this.

Labour propose to raise taxes to fill two thirds of this gap, and make cuts to close one third.

Fine Gael propose to raise taxes to fill one third of this gap, and make cuts to close two thirds.

So Labour - according to their own plans - have admitted that they will be increasing our taxes by twice what FG plan to do, in order that they don't have to tackle the excessive cost of our public sector.

So whatever way you spin 'FG stealth taxes' or 'FG property taxes' or 'FG university fees', the fact is that Labour plan to take TWICE as much extra money from us. And it's not me saying that, it's them.