What's the real reason Irish pubs don't have more craft beers available?

redlead

As someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the pub industry I have a few questions regarding the above. I accept that the Irish palette has grown accustomed to the more bland beers such as Heineken and Budweiser etc. and so at first taste they might think that some of O'Hara's or Dungarvans pale Ales are horrible but both companies Cask Stouts are not unbelievably different in taste than Guinness while being obviously much tastier and of a much higher quality. They are also properly irish and I'm convinced that a lot of standard Guinness drinkers would switch to these if they were made readily available.

1. Do pubs in Ireland have contracts with the big beer companies where they are not allowed sell these sort of beers if they want to sell Heino, Guinness etc.? Is this a big prohibiting factor or is that an issue at all?

2. Cost. How much more are these beers costing the pub. A bottle of Blackrock in Mulligans is over €6 for instance. This makes it very unaffordable to drink craft beers for the night. As long as they were less than €5 people would be more willing to drink them regularly. I know that economies of scale come into play here and the more these drinks become mass produced the more the quality reduces but you can strike a good balance here (with the casks at least).

3. Are Irish pubs just ignorant and refuse to stock this stuff regardless of whether people want to drink it or not? I'm not really enjoying going for pints anymore because once you get used to the good stuff then everything else tastes crap. It's often hard drag friends to specialist bars because they just want the normal stuff.

Please educate me :-)

BeerNut

redlead wrote: »

I'm convinced that a lot of standard Guinness drinkers would switch to these if they were made readily available.

Perhaps, but it's a catch-22: businesses are are less likely to stock something if it doesn't already sell.

redlead wrote: »

1. Do pubs in Ireland have contracts with the big beer companies where they are not allowed sell these sort of beers if they want to sell Heino, Guinness etc.? Is this a big prohibiting factor or is that an issue at all?

It's a minor factor. The big companies view each other as their main rivals. The craft beer market is too small for them to pay any attention to it. If it gets big, then they'll likely try and muscle it off the bar by offering incentives to publicans. But I don't think that happens yet. There's nothing stopping Paddy the Publican putting on a Galway Hooker tap, or sticking some Duvel in the fridge, if he wants to.

redlead wrote: »

2. Cost. How much more are these beers costing the pub. A bottle of Blackrock in Mulligans is over €6 for instance. This makes it very unaffordable to drink craft beers for the night.

People will pay €4.50 - €5 for a 33cl bottle of Heineken. Your problem is not with the price of craft beer so much as bottled beer. In general, craft beer prices are similar to macros. In lots of places they're cheaper.

redlead wrote: »

3. Are Irish pubs just ignorant and refuse to stock this stuff regardless of whether people want to drink it or not?

There is a a lot of ignorance in the pub trade (I mean that literally, not in the sense of "rude"). Publicans will not be aware of these beers, they will not be interested in beer in general: they drink what they sell, so do their punters: why change? If fewer people are coming in it's because of supermarkets and the smoking ban, not the products on offer in my pub.

redlead wrote: »

I'm not really enjoying going for pints anymore because once you get used to the good stuff then everything else tastes crap. It's often hard drag friends to specialist bars because they just want the normal stuff.

Every sub-standard pint of macrobeer you buy sends a message to the industry that Everything's OK And The Customers Are Happy. There are plenty of pubs selling craft beer that also sell the "normal" stuff: try them. In Dublin you've got Messrs Maguire, The Palace, The Temple Bar, Bowe's, Paddy Cullen's, The Gingerman, The Bull & Castle and others I'm sure.

Aside for the ignorance and the lack of a pre-existing market, the other big thing is advertising and branding. We are bombarded with ads for the big brands and that's what people are conditioned to buy when they go to the pub. It's not as effective in off licences, hence the greater range of beers they all have. But in the pub people will instinctively order a beer that's part of the scenery without even looking at the taps or in the fridge. I've read that the Irish are the most brand-loyal consumers in the developed world. Once you've decided you're a Guinness drinker, or a Heineken drinker, or a Bud drinker it takes a lot to shift you.

And, personally, I don't think there's any point in trying to shift those drinkers: they enjoy their beer and fair play to them. The biggest enemy of the craft beer market right now, I think, are the people who are interested in different beers, who will happily try new things, but would rather cry into their pint of Guinness about lack of choice on their doorstep.

redlead

Thanks Beernut.

I always go out of my way in every pub lately to ask for one of the Irish craft beers. Funnily enough when I asked for O'Hara's in the Temple Bar the foreign barman looked at me like I have ten heads.

BeerNut

I went in recently and asked for a Black Rock Stout. I got a confused look, but he did find it for me.

The Beoir directory of pubs that serve Irish craft beer is nearing completion (though Dublin still has lots of holes). When that's done we should have a rolling list of where has what. All corrections welcome, of course.

Uncle Mclovin

It ultimatley boils down to demand. Advertising has embedded the idea of drinking Heineken and the like into our subconscious.


My father owns a pub and I must say that we have a crappy selection of beers on tap. You could list them on one hand.

There's no point in having a beer in a keg that isn't been drank. It will go bad and the publican will be loss making which isn't a viable option.


On the other hand we have a large selection of bottled beers and if anyone asked us to get another type in stock we wouldn't hesitate in doing so.

BeerNut

Uncle Mclovin wrote: »

There's no point in having a beer in a keg that isn't been drank. It will go bad and the publican will be loss making which isn't a viable option.

The problem there is that, almost unique among businesses, the publican does not believe he has to do anything to sell his beer. He just pulls the pint, takes the money and pays the brewery invoices. If he was actually interested in carrying a new beer he would have to sell it: hold a promotional event, put up point-of-sale-material, train his staff to point it out and actively market it -- all the other perfectly normal things that retailers do in every other sector. But the big breweries have taken all that away from the publican. They don't even have to clean their own lines any more: I'd say there are plenty of people running pubs out there who wouldn't know how.

It's not a coincidence that the beer with the massive marketing campaign is the one people drink while the one no-one has heard of gets no action and goes sour in the keg. But the publican could do something about that if he wanted to.

oblivious

Uncle Mclovin wrote: »

It ultimatley boils down to demand. Advertising has embedded the idea of drinking Heineken and the like into our subconscious.


My father owns a pub and I must say that we have a crappy selection of beers on tap. You could list them on one hand.

There's no point in having a beer in a keg that isn't been drank. It will go bad and the publican will be loss making which isn't a viable option..

But how many are really interested in promoting new beers or interested in Irish micros?
The wine industry was like that everyone drank blue nun/black tower or something similar. A change in their point of sale and wildlings to do some self promotion and not just relaying on Joe public to spot a new tap and try it.

redlead

BeerNut wrote: »

The problem there is that, almost unique among businesses, the publican does not believe he has to do anything to sell his beer. He just pulls the pint, takes the money and pays the brewery invoices. If he was actually interested in carrying a new beer he would have to sell it: hold a promotional event, put up point-of-sale-material, train his staff to point it out and actively market it -- all the other perfectly normal things that retailers do in every other sector. But the big breweries have taken all that away from the publican. They don't even have to clean their own lines any more: I'd say there are plenty of people running pubs out there who wouldn't know how.

It's not a coincidence that the beer with the massive marketing campaign is the one people drink while the one no-one has heard of gets no action and goes sour in the keg. But the publican could do something about that if he wanted to.

Couldn't agree with you more. The craft of the good barman seems to be gone. I have to say the barman in Against the Grain is fantastic. He will tell you about the beer you're drinking, make new recommendations, tells you about new upcoming promotions etc. He served me a pint the other day, as I was waiting for it to settle, decided that he wasn't happy with the head and took it back from me to fix it. I never even noticed. We're just used to drinking what we're given.

IrishWhiskeyCha

I think there are multiple reasons and not necessary one in particular. Beernut mentions a few there.

Also you have to remember what the pub means to people in general. The pub historically has been a social hub not solely an outlet for beer. That's where Irish pubs and restaurants differ. People go to the restaurant mainly for the food , obviously there is the social part to it too but the food is high on the agenda. However people who go to the pub go there for the social interaction therefore the beer is a secondary issue. People what to have something they can drink and not overly worry about it and get on with their nights socialising. And if you go to the so called higher class venues the choice in drink is more about prestige than again the actual drink, basically style over substance, and that is really how the long neck caught on. Further Irish People are inherently conservative and that is why everything in this country changes so slowly. However this is changing and the Celtic tiger generation have gone some ways in changing attitudes in taste so all in not doom and gloom and I do see a future where the beer (and whiskey) will get more exciting and choice will be demanded by more and more. Just a matter of keep asking your local for this that and the other until the penny finally drops ... there is really no quick fix though.

buck65

Some great reasons there lads, I agree that the pubs are missing a trick that the offlicenses are picking up on. All my local offies have introduced more real beers and ales and are doing well and also making more margin on these.

Personally I am happy enough to pay €3 a bottle for something different and decent in a 500ml bottle. (This would probably be 5.50 or 6 in a pub, and they are still buying it for around a Euro)
I go to the pub maybe once a month now , pre baby it was, weekly and tbh I don't miss it a bit.

I find it hard to feel sorry for publicans going out of business, I run a business and our gross profit would be 25% ish, of course some items you would make 45% plus on but the main items not a hope - this would equate to a pub charging around €2 a pint - even €3 is acceptable i think but they are screwing us and the people are answering with their feet.

Of course they peddle the line that they need to charge so much because of running costs etc. etc. what they need to do is sell more at lower prices, when they see microbrewery products or craft beers they reckon hey I'll get another euro or two for this thus putting off the punter even further and ensuring the product stays on the shelf.

Of course pubs are shackled by the vinters federation where competition is actively discouraged. Price fixing is alive and well in ireland!
Also what is it about mass consumerism and mediocrity? People are happy enough to drink garbage in a pub, even Guinness have watered down their product and this extra cold nonsense is just there to kill any taste at all.
I suppose I don't understand people watching the X Factor or Soaps either - or chick lit!

redlead

buck65 wrote: »

Some great reasons there lads, I agree that the pubs are missing a trick that the offlicenses are picking up on. All my local offies have introduced more real beers and ales and are doing well and also making more margin on these. Personally I am happy enough to pay €3 a bottle for something different and decent in a 500ml bottle.
I go to the pub maybe once a month now , pre baby it was, weekly and tbh I don't miss it a bit.

Yeah it's nice to enjoy some quality beers at home but as a poster above alluded to, there is a social side to drinking to and people into the craft beers like socialising just as much as anyone.

BeerNut

buck65 wrote: »

i think but they are screwing us and the people are answering with their feet.

And they blame the supermarkets and the smoking ban

buck65 wrote: »

when they see microbrewery products or craft beers they reckon hey I'll get another euro or two for this

I don't think this happens very much. Can you give me an example? In every pub I can think of, craft beer is either the same price as the macro equivalents, or is cheaper. When the Red Windmill put Trouble Ór on, it was €3.50 a pint -- cheapest in the place. The house beers in Messrs Maguire have been €4 a pint for at least the past six years. The Bull & Castle commissioned a special low-ABV budget pale ale: €3.85 a half litre and again the cheapest beer in the house.

Price is not an issue here. There's an argument that selling craft beer cheaper will do more harm than good. I've seen loyal Guinness drinkers on this board scoffing at Beamish for no reason other than it's cheaper.

IrishWhiskeyCha wrote: »

Also you have to remember what the pub means to people in general. The pub historically has been a social hub not solely an outlet for beer. That's where Irish pubs and restaurants differ. People go to the restaurant mainly for the food , obviously there is the social part to it too but the food is high on the agenda. However people who go to the pub go there for the social interaction therefore the beer is a secondary issue. People what to have something they can drink and not overly worry about it and get on with their nights socialising.

It's a fair point, but the killer counter-argument is: England. Same pub culture and social function; lots of quality local and regional beer.

IrishWhiskeyCha wrote: »

However this is changing

Very much so. In the last three years we've seen six new breweries open on the island, and we'll have two more by summer. Keep drinking their beer and there'll be more.

Dermo

I think part of it comes down to the consumer. If 100 people went into a bar over a weekend, asked the barman do they do O'Hara's Stout (or other beers) on tap and were told no then they should make a point of saying
"Oh, if you don't do anything except the standard stuff then I'll look somewhere else"

On another note, I went down to the Franciscan Well last weekend to try out some new beers and a guy asked the barman "Which one of these beers taste the most like Budweiser?"

yknaa

Dermo wrote: »

"On another note, I went down to the Franciscan Well last weekend to try out some new beers and a guy asked the barman "Which one of these beers taste the most like Budweiser?"

Hope he gave him a glass of tap water

ciaran76

I think most people know why Craft beers are not top of the list in most pubs.

1. Consumer awareness : Most people are not aware of craft beers. Most people drink in their local drink the same beer week in week out. Everything else is cheap beer or p1ss because they havent seen it advertised on tv or this drink doesnt sponsor a major sport in this country.

2. Tradition : People in general will drink what they drink and what they have been drinking for years. Guinness in winter and any lager in summer. I am sure most have you have heard this a million times.

3. Bar staff / Choice :Staff in most locals don't encourage beer tasting. As I am in London every 2nd weekend I notice that a lot of pubs there have beer tasting sessions during the week (I know Porterhouse and L.Mulligans do this here). Last week in L.Mulligans I was given a taste of Belfast Blonde.
Again most locals have the usual 5 beers (Guinness/Heine/Bud./Miller/Smith.) So not much choice really in general.

I think most people already covered what I said in previous posts.


This weekend I know from twitter/facebook that L.Mulligans has Dungarvan Blackrock stout on cask. So I will pop in on Saturday and try it out. Whilst there will also have a Galway Hooker or a Trouble Dark Arts.

matrim

Dermo wrote: »

I think part of it comes down to the consumer. If 100 people went into a bar over a weekend, asked the barman do they do O'Hara's Stout (or other beers) on tap and were told no then they should make a point of saying

A Beer & Wine & Spirits version boards beers that end up with nobody actually having beer. We pick a pub all walk into it on one weekend ask for a craft and leave when they don't have it

Focalbhach

matrim wrote: »

A Beer & Wine & Spirits version boards beers that end up with nobody actually having beer. We pick a pub all walk into it on one weekend ask for a craft and leave when they don't have it

I'm in :cool:

the beer revolu

It woud have to be a pub that people here would actually like to drink in if it stocked Irish craft beer. In Dublin, The Stag's Head springs to mind.

matrim

the beer revolu wrote: »

It woud have to be a pub that people here would actually like to drink in if it stocked Irish craft beer. In Dublin, The Stag's Head springs to mind.

Makes sense. We could always make it a regular thing and pick a different pub every couple of weeks.

Another suggestion would be The Duke, it's a decent pub, central and already has some extra beers (e.g. Hoegarden, Paulaner etc) so might be more open to getting in some craft beers.

saefraigh

matrim wrote: »

A Beer & Wine & Spirits version boards beers that end up with nobody actually having beer. We pick a pub all walk into it on one weekend ask for a craft and leave when they don't have it

You have to explain why you you want more choice, not leave in a huff if they don't have it. If i had a bar that went through 100 or so people on any given day, all asking for the same thing and acting stupidly when not getting it, i would probably consider myself better off without whatever it is your looking for.

Just sayin...

matrim

saefraigh wrote: »

You have to explain why you you want more choice, not leave in a huff if they don't have it. If i had a bar that went through 100 or so people on any given day, all asking for the same thing and acting stupidly when not getting it, i would probably consider myself better off without whatever it is your looking for.

Just sayin...

Well I originally mentioned it as a bit of a joke and hadn't thought about it.

I wouldn't call it acting stupidly, lots of people go up to a restaurant look at their menu and leave if they don't like it so why can't we do the same with bars. Although in saying that I agree that just asking and leaving without any explanation isn't the best. As part of it would be trying to educate bars that there are customers who want something other than the normal 5 or 6 beers.

Depending on the reaction of the barman it could be fine to stay for a beer without affecting the point of lack of choice E.g. if he seems to be genuinely interested in the idea of new beers and looks like he'll try get it in then that's fine and you've possibly found yourself a great bar who actively listens to their customers.
However for some bars they are so stuck in their ways the only thing that will make them change is to actually see that they are actively losing customers by not having a choice of beers.

rubadub

saefraigh wrote: »

You have to explain why you you want more choice, not leave in a huff if they don't have it. If i had a bar that went through 100 or so people on any given day, all asking for the same thing and acting stupidly when not getting it, i would probably consider myself better off without whatever it is your looking for.

Who said anything about leaving in a huff? you just leave like you would in any shop who didn't have the item you wanted.

I don't think any explanation is really needed. If I was a shopowner and somebody came in and asked for a product and left even though I stocked what I condsidered suitable alternatives, then it would make me think "so people obviously are particular about what they want, maybe I should stock some of that item, I lost out on at least 100 sales today" -dunno how why they would think they are better off missing all those sales. I think they would be the stupid ones not to take note-and they would be stupid if they needed it explained to them.

You seem to be thinking along the lines of this

IrishWhiskeyCha wrote: »

the pub historically has been a social hub not solely an outlet for beer. That's where Irish pubs and restaurants differ. People go to the restaurant mainly for the food , obviously there is the social part to it too but the food is high on the agenda. However people who go to the pub go there for the social interaction therefore the beer is a secondary issue.

And you wrongly presume that nobody gives a damn about what they drink. Its strange that you would think people are "acting stupidly" for leaving a retailer who did not have the product they wanted. In the example above would you think people are stupid if they walk away from a restaurant who did not have food they wanted?

I suggested something similar to this before, for both beer choice and beer prices. Like going in with a gang of lads, like a stag party or rugby team, lads all picking up menus to look at food saying they are starving, and then walk out when you hear the price or lack of choice. It would work better with the owner/manager about.

I often peer over the bar to see what beers are in the fridge, and get asked by the barman what am I looking for and I would say "any german beers" or something. They should be embarrased about their lack of choice, it really puzzles me to see the massive difference between pubs and offlicences. You see publicans posting here saying "it won't sell", well who the hell buys it in the offies?!? you don't have to buy pallets of the stuff, just a few bottles. If its not sold drink it yourself.

It is really strange how businesses all copy each other so closely, like almost all chinese takeaways force you to get rice or chips with a meal, all of them have those long fold out menus. Chippers are almost identical too. Pubs rarely serve cans of beer, and have 200ml bottles instead of cans or 2L bottles. If I was given control of a pub it would be a very different beast to what people are used to, and I think it would be popular just as a change, so many towns are full of identical pubs.

johnmcdnl

because how many of your mates are going to want to try some new beer instead of the heino which is the "best"

Heinken and Bud and all the other beers are selling so well because of advertising claiming there the best - heineken cup and all that...

the reason they don't have more craft beers is because they just wouldn't sell

the beer revolu

johnmcdnl wrote: »

because how many of your mates are going to want to try some new beer instead of the heino which is the "best"

Heinken and Bud and all the other beers are selling so well because of advertising claiming there the best - heineken cup and all that...

the reason they don't have more craft beers is because they just wouldn't sell

That may be true of the pubs that you go to and your mates but there a lots of different people and places out there and more and more people want choice now. I do believe that times they are a changing and the smart pubs will be the ones that pick up on that first.

BeerNut

matrim wrote: »

it could be fine to stay for a beer without affecting the point of lack of choice

So you'd be trying to break the dominance of Guinness and Heineken by buying Guinness and Heineken? :rolleyes:

I think I've said this before, and if anyone working in the on-trade thinks I'm wrong on this please say so: but grand theatrical gestures like a bunch of people going into a pub and asking for a beer they don't have will have no effect. It would be a very foolish business that makes stock decisions based on such things. The figures at the end of the month are the only place where they'll notice what''s selling and what isn't.

Personally, I would rather spend my time drinking the beers I like in the pubs that stock them.

saefraigh

BeerNut wrote: »

I think I've said this before, and if anyone working in the on-trade thinks I'm wrong on this please say so: but grand theatrical gestures like a bunch of people going into a pub and asking for a beer they don't have will have no effect.
Personally, I would rather spend my time drinking the beers I like in the pubs that stock them.

In the on-trade.
Agreed, however my local had no decent selection until i asked them to stock some cases of Paulaner for me. I drank a case a week so they were happy to place it as a regular order. Since then they have expanded the premium range and some of the regulars will make the leap from time to time. Maybe you should talk to your local's staff/manager and try this tactic.

rubadub

johnmcdnl wrote: »

because how many of your mates are going to want to try some new beer instead of the heino which is the "best"

Happened the other night, my mate is working part time as a barman so we all went down and got talking about the beer. We asked what was selling well and he says fosters, few lads shocked until they heard it was 3.40, so they tried it and went on to have a few. I was outside having a smoke with him and noticed a blank sandwich board right outside and asked why had they not written "fosters €3.40 a pint", he just shrugged. I think this is madness.

My usual local had fosters cheap and had several signs up around the pub.

The very next day one of the lads who switched to fosters saw me with a can of beamish, and asks in actual shock "why the fuck are you drinking that!", I said whats wrong with it? the reply "Its beamish!", really genuinely shocked. He then asked what it tasted like and I was saying just like guinness really. It was only later I wondered if he had EVER tasted beamish himself, from what he was saying I don't think he had, yet has drank guinness for over 15 years!:rolleyes:

johnmcdnl wrote: »

Heinken and Bud and all the other beers are selling so well because of advertising claiming there the best - heineken cup and all that.

Some sell as there is nothing else, just because people buy it certainly does not mean it would be there preferred choice. I have been at music festivals with only guinness & bud, or guinness and heineken on sale. The lads were drinking the bud, but were in no way pleased about the lack of choice.

johnmcdnl wrote: »

the reason they don't have more craft beers is because they just wouldn't sell

Yes this is why supermarkets and off licences never stock craft beers. oh wait, they do....

BeerNut wrote: »

I think I've said this before, and if anyone working in the on-trade thinks I'm wrong on this please say so: but grand theatrical gestures like a bunch of people going into a pub and asking for a beer they don't have will have no effect. It would be a very foolish business that makes stock decisions based on such things. The figures at the end of the month are the only place where they'll notice what''s selling and what isn't.

I don't think you have to be in the on-trade, I wouldn't really have much respect for many publicans business sense either. As you said yourself

the publican does not believe he has to do anything to sell his beer.

Any retailer with this belief is a utter idiot IMO. I think it would be very foolish not to stock stuff that there is an obvious demand for.

What are their figures going to show at the end of the month? we had no O'Haras, and so sold none, therefore we will not get it?? Seriously I don't follow your logic at all, I don't see how the figures will show lost sales. If I was a retailer, doesn't matter if it was beer, electronics or food, I would be extremely interested in seeing customer behaviour first hand. I would be very interested in what is causing lost sales and potential new sales, and just looking at books will not tell me much.

Many business refuse to even bother thinking like a customer, let alone quizzing them. First thing I would have in my pub is a suggestion box. I have discovered numerous anomolies in my own work place about pricing, and was able to tell the sales men exactly why they were selling none of one item, and loads of another. We often have to develop new products due to demand, a company might buy a suite of machines and will go elsewhere if we cannot supply them all in a range.

matrim

BeerNut wrote: »

So you'd be trying to break the dominance of Guinness and Heineken by buying Guinness and Heineken? :rolleyes:

I think I've said this before, and if anyone working in the on-trade thinks I'm wrong on this please say so: but grand theatrical gestures like a bunch of people going into a pub and asking for a beer they don't have will have no effect. It would be a very foolish business that makes stock decisions based on such things. The figures at the end of the month are the only place where they'll notice what''s selling and what isn't.

Personally, I would rather spend my time drinking the beers I like in the pubs that stock them.

But I qualified that with saying if the barman engages about the choice you staying for a couple of what they have hopefully won't effect the bar getting in a choice of beers in the future. I agree that some bars will only see end of month figures but not all bars are like that and if a bar is willing to engage with customers they should be encouraged to do so.

They might not change a keg based off this but if it encouraged a bar to get in a couple of cases of bottles then it's good. If those bottles get sold they'll keep getting them in. If we do it, it should be about getting more bars to make the initial step of getting in a case or two and seeing that those can sell.

BeerNut

saefraigh wrote: »

my local had no decent selection until i asked them to stock some cases of Paulaner for me. I drank a case a week so they were happy to place it as a regular order. Since then they have expanded the premium range and some of the regulars will make the leap from time to time. Maybe you should talk to your local's staff/manager and try this tactic.

This makes sense: if you're a regular customer then it makes sense for the business to adapt to you. It's different for a bunch of strangers.

rubadub wrote: »

I think it would be very foolish not to stock stuff that there is an obvious demand for.

One incident where people ask for stuff does not constitute "obvious demand". Plus, of course, there are plenty of prosperous pubs that don't do food but are probably asked for it regularly -- I've seen it several times in The Long Hall, for instance.

rubadub wrote: »

What are their figures going to show at the end of the month?

If they are not supplying demand, the numbers will be down. A sensible businessperson will try and do something to bring the numbers up: food, live music, or a wider range of beers, for instance.

Focalbhach

BeerNut wrote: »

If they are not supplying demand, the numbers will be down. A sensible businessperson will try and do something to bring the numbers up: food, live music, or a wider range of beers, for instance.

I thought that was the case - numbers are down, no? To a casual listener the explanation offered for this seems to be "cheaper supermarket off-sales" or "the smoking ban" much more frequently than it is "maybe it's what I stock".

BeerNut

Leto wrote: »

the explanation offered for this seems to be "cheaper supermarket off-sales" or "the smoking ban"

Of course: these are public policy issues that the publicans' lobby want changed. No point in complaining that "what I offer my customers isn't good enough" because my friends in government can't do anything about that. But that's not to say smart publicans aren't thinking it.

Focalbhach

BeerNut wrote: »

No point in complaining that "what I offer my customers isn't good enough" ...
But that's not to say smart publicans aren't thinking it.

In which case - given declining sales and recognition by the publican that the products on offer may be a contributing factor - I would think that specific requests by real live people in the bar for something else might help to direct them down that path. It certainly can't hurt.

brianthebard

BeerNut wrote: »

And they blame the supermarkets and the smoking ban

I don't think this happens very much. Can you give me an example? In every pub I can think of, craft beer is either the same price as the macro equivalents, or is cheaper. When the Red Windmill put Trouble Ór on, it was €3.50 a pint -- cheapest in the place. The house beers in Messrs Maguire have been €4 a pint for at least the past six years. The Bull & Castle commissioned a special low-ABV budget pale ale: €3.85 a half litre and again the cheapest beer in the house.

That would be the case in all the pubs in Galway that sell craft beers with the exception of specials if they are running any.

It's a fair point, but the killer counter-argument is: England. Same pub culture and social function; lots of quality local and regional beer.

Not entirely true you just have to look at the different relationship between the breweries and pubs or the franchise pubs to see there are fundamental differences in operation, and in culture as a result.

BeerNut

brianthebard wrote: »

That would be the case in all the pubs in Galway that sell craft beers with the exception of specials if they are running any.

Off the top of my head, I recall Bay Lager and Ale being cheaper than any other draught option in Oslo. I'm fairly sure a pint of O'Hara's Stout in the Salt House was cheaper than a pint of Carlsberg last time I was in, though that was almost a year ago. Have you any up-to-date numbers?

brianthebard wrote: »

there are fundamental differences in operation, and in culture as a result.

There are fundamental differences in the business culture, true: first thing I'd change in Ireland is our ridiculous Edwardian licensing regime. But the social function of the pub is exactly the same.

brianthebard

BeerNut wrote: »

Off the top of my head, I recall Bay Lager and Ale being cheaper than any other draught option in Oslo. I'm fairly sure a pint of O'Hara's Stout in the Salt House was cheaper than a pint of Carlsberg last time I was in, though that was almost a year ago. Have you any up-to-date numbers?

Bay lager and ale are in house brews, there would be something wrong with the pub if they didn't sell them cheaper. Plus that's out in Salthill tbh and I don't count it as Galway. I don't remember O'Hara's being cheaper in the Salthouse, it has been cheaper than Guinness in No.8 for instance when on special but not normally. I haven't been to the pub in a while so I can't guarantee it though.

BeerNut

brianthebard wrote: »

there would be something wrong with the pub if they didn't sell them cheaper.

Nevertheless, it would indicate that "all the pubs in Galway that sell craft beers" do not sell them dearer than macros.

brianthebard wrote: »

Plus that's out in Salthill tbh and I don't count it as Galway.

They didn't sell the Bay beers in The Salt House or Mustard when I was last in Galway; they do now. If you get a chance maybe you could give us an up-to-date price comparison.

brianthebard

I will hopefully be out this week or next, or for the end of the 6n, so we'll see what I can do. The bay drinks are nice and its good that they are being offered cheaper than the macrobrews. I would still consider them specials, at least until they are rolled out across all pubs in Galway, but maybe the company intends to keep them exclusive, I don't know.

irish_goat

The only way I can imagine the pub I work in ever selling craft beer is if a few regulars indicated that they would drink it and I convinced the boss to buy some in. As far as I can remember I've only ever been asked twice in my 4 years of work if we stocked any "decent" beers.

Being in an area closer to the breweries would help. I.e. I imagine sales of Belfast Ale are a bit higher in Belfast cause of the name association.

rubadub

BeerNut wrote: »

One incident where people ask for stuff does not constitute "obvious demand".

the original mention in this thread was 100 people in a weekend. But even with my example, if I was a publican the single incident I mentioned would certainly be enough to make me think about stocking it. Many pubs are screwed these days, after visiting my mate working in his pub the next day one of the lads said we probably doubled the pubs takings for the night, there were few others there, and they were drinking nowhere near as much as us.

In other this and other threads with publicans I keep hearing over and over "it won't sell". Now a gang of lads coming in and leaving after hearing there is no sky sports and no 60" LED will not spur me into spending €5000 on a big setup on a whim-that would take serious thought and calculation. But for fucks sake lads, getting a couple of 6 packs of different beers in your fridge to see if there actually is a market is not a big investment. And as I said before, if they don't sell drink them yourself, there is nothing to lose. It really does puzzle me.

BeerNut wrote: »

there are plenty of prosperous pubs that don't do food but are probably asked for it regularly -- I've seen it several times in The Long Hall, for instance.

Like the big plasma or sky subscription getting hot food in would be a big endeavour and investment. Most pubs will have their overpriced snacks to sell. I would imagine serving sandwiches or hot food made on the premises might bring them into some other category, like have to be up to scratch for healthboards etc, have inspections, employ a chef, get a approved kitchen etc. They might have worked out potential losses and figured they are still better off without the extra headache of all the extra work. Its incomparable to a few 6 packs just to test the water.

BeerNut wrote: »

If they are not supplying demand, the numbers will be down. A sensible businessperson will try and do something to bring the numbers up: food, live music, or a wider range of beers, for instance.

A sensible buinnessman will not just be content with figures which match last months, they would actively be pursing higher profits and looking at what goes on at the shopfloor level -even if his profits are going up and in most cases demand is dropping as mentioned. I would always be seeking to increase demand and testing easy ideas to do so.

JnarF

BeerNut wrote: »

Off the top of my head, I recall Bay Lager and Ale being cheaper than any other draught option in Oslo. I'm fairly sure a pint of O'Hara's Stout in the Salt House was cheaper than a pint of Carlsberg last time I was in, though that was almost a year ago. Have you any up-to-date numbers?

When they opened they were in fact much dearer than a regular pint in there, but they thankfully saw sense. O'Haras Stout is on draught at the moment, has been for a few weeks, had a couple of tasty pints of it a while back, can't remember how much but it was very reasonably priced, thinking of it now I'd love a few pints of it!

BeerNut

Ah yes, it was Porterhouse Oyster that was on when I was in, not O'Hara's. I've just dug out a photo I took of the bar.

So, in February 2010:

Craft beers (per pint)
Galway Hooker: €4.75
Porterhouse Oyster: €4.30
Hersbrucker: €4.30

Macro beers (per pint)
Budvar : €4.75
Hoegaarden: €4.75
Staropramen: €4.75
Fischer: €4.75
Guinness: €3.75
Pilsner Urquell: €4.75
Carlsberg: €4.30
Erdinger: €4.75

The prices seem to be largely based on style rather than bumping up the price of the craft beers.

pa990

the majority of pub goers, wont chance anything different.

a friend of mine was in a pub where a paulaner promotion was going on, and he was enjoying the cheap wheat beer.
however, the guys in the pub wouldnt drink the beer, cos it came in a gay glass, and the women wouldnt drink it cos it looked like piss.

.. make up your own mind ..

Bigcheeze

pa990 wrote: »

however, the guys in the pub wouldnt drink the beer, cos it came in a gay glass, and the women wouldnt drink it cos it looked like piss.

.. make up your own mind ..

Funny, I was in a pub with a mate and we got two Paulaners and I could tell the bar flies were looking at us like the guy in the Savage Eye and thinking: "pair of queeeorrs"

rubadub

pa990 wrote: »

the majority of pub goers, wont chance anything different.

The same can be said of the majority of supermarket and off licence "goers", but even the most poorly stocked supermarket has a variety which will put most pubs to shame. Makes no sense to me, are these publicans going into tesco sniggering to themselves thinking "the feckin eejits, nobody is going to buy that, do they not realise they can get away with just 2 choices of lager and 1 stout".

pa990 wrote: »

however, the guys in the pub wouldnt drink the beer, cos it came in a gay glass, and the women wouldnt drink it cos it looked like piss.

Jaysus, if they're that homophobic you can ask for a normal glass -though you will get less due to the head. I ask for half pint glasses with my bottles since I dislike the top heavy branded glasses you usually get.

What also bugs me is when I get any pint with yeast in it I often get ooohs and awws and cheeky feckers always demanding they get to taste some, my mates missus has drank (my) erdinger loads of times yet will never buy one. Again it strangly seems like some massive investment to some people just to try a different beer, yet they would think nothing about "risking" buying a new type of burger at the same price.

I had a pint of weiss in messrs which was cloudy (normal glass), some girl looked at me in shock warning me as I was about to drink it
"but what is that stuff",
"thats yeast"
"why is it in there"
"it was just not filtered out, it was in your beer too but they filtered it out"
-stares at her own beer in disbelief & amazement.
I thought most people would have seen a cloudly beer by now.

BaZmO*

Just on the subject of the "It wouldn't sell, so I won't stock it" argument. Oddly enough, in the current downturn in numbers going to pubs, any of the pubs that stock a wide range of craft beers (that I frequent) always seem to be packed. Granted there could be other factors at play, food, music, location, niche market frequented by niche customers. But that said, the reason why I won't go to my local is because they only serve macros. I don't mind drinking macros but why go to the pub and pay €5 for a pint when I can get 2 bottles of really nice (different) beers (not necessarily craft) in the off license for around the same price?

Publicans need to get the finger out and start promoting the beer themselves. For years it's been up to the the actual supplier to do the promotions, and that was fine for the publican as the customers were there anyway. How difficult is it to get a few trays/crates of Irish craft beer and put on a "Buy Irish" promotion? It doesn't have to have a 4 week prime time TV campaign, but they need to offer something different. Anything.

Food is always a good way to get extra custom but adding new beers is so much easier.

oblivious

BaZmO* wrote: »

J
Publicans need to get the finger out and start promoting the beer themselves. For years it's been up to the the actual supplier to do the promotions, and that was fine for the publican as the customers were there anyway.

oh +1


How many business sit back an have that attuide "It wouldn't sell, so I won't stock it" argument"

irish_goat

BaZmO* wrote: »

ow difficult is it to get a few trays/crates of Irish craft beer and put on a "Buy Irish" promotion? It doesn't have to have a 4 week prime time TV campaign, but they need to offer something different.

The small breweries should all bunch together and do this.

oblivious

irish_goat wrote: »

The small breweries should all bunch together and do this.

And/or with a group of like minded people Beoir

redlead

oblivious wrote: »

And/or with a group of like minded people Beoir

I just signed up. Whats the benefits of the site? Does it send updates of events and stuff like that etc? The articles don't seem to frequent.

moonflower

Just on the subject of craft beers in Galway, the majority of pubs I've been in have had at least one or two craft beers available and at a similar or cheaper price than say a 330ml bottle of Heineken. You definitely couldn't complain about a lack of beer options in Galway, the Oslo/Salthouse/Cottage beer menu is what, 8 pages long? Pretty much all the pubs down the west have a good selection of beers, and even if you prefer to stay up the other side of town there's O'Connells and Foxes which both have a few decent beers.

BeerNut wrote: »

They didn't sell the Bay beers in The Salt House or Mustard when I was last in Galway; they do now. If you get a chance maybe you could give us an up-to-date price comparison.

Irrc they're under €4 a pint.

oblivious

redlead wrote: »

I just signed up. Whats the benefits of the site? Does it send updates of events and stuff like that etc? The articles don't seem to frequent.

Beoir is an independent group of consumers with a primary goal of supporting and raising awareness of Ireland's native independent microbreweries