Womens' attitudes, post recession.

MidgetWrestler

Anyone noticed that a couple of years ago, you'd be out in a bar, and get talking to a girl, and the only things she'd want to know were what you worked at, what car you had and how much €€ you had.. ok that's maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but sometimes it felt that way.. and some places seemed to be more.. uppetty - prob not a real word, but hoenever..

Over the last while I noticed that women are more approachable, more interesting, more engaging, and less full of their own ****e. They're more willing to chat about real things that aren't matierial based... but, I've been moving a lot over the past few years, not stayed anywhere longer than 6 months, so looking to not generalise too much.

Any of you guys (and Girls) noticed a shift in perceptions.. has the economic climate brought some people back down to earth, and made the social scene better? Or is it all in my head?

Sakura_chan

I think the places you go to meet girls can influence the type of girls you meet. I am low-maintenance girl and like to hang out in 'old-man' pubs where you can get a decent pint of Guinness! I have no interest in what a person earns, what car they drive (if any!) etc. Maybe this is a generalisation, but if you go to 'fancy' bars and clubs you tend to meet the type of girls who are looking for a wallet instead of a guy! There are always exceptions but this is what I find! A guy asked me out on a first date to a fancy expensive bar in Dublin and although I got on well with the guy when we met, this put me off and made me worry he might be a bit of a snob! I asked could we change the venue to a low-key pub and we had a great night there- he had been trying to impress me on the advice of some high-flying mates but instead of impressing, it put me off...
Have you been socialising in different places since you noticed the change or are the same old haunts getting a different crowd....?

Pure Sound

You might be on to something there. A few years ago I was in a club in Galway and basically the conversation between people was basically what you said, the girls were asking questions like "Where to you work" "How much do you earn" "do you have a car" "do you own a house" etc if you didnt tick all the boxes they basically moved onto the next guy. They seemed to be husband hunting measuring guys by what they owned and not what kind of person they were, I was disgusted with it to be honest. I hav'nt come across this kind of greed related chatting up for a while now but that could be to do with me now having a girlfriend and not frequenting that particular club anymore. I hope you are right and we are getting our personalities back.

jugger0

We Need Community wrote: »

You might be on to something there. A few years ago I was in a club in Galway and basically the conversation between people was basically what you said, the girls were asking questions like "Where to you work" "How much do you earn" "do you have a car" "do you own a house" etc if you didnt tick all the boxes they basically moved onto the next guy. They seemed to be husband hunting measuring guys by what they owned and not what kind of person they were, I was disgusted with it to be honest. I hav'nt come across this kind of greed related chatting up for a while now but that could be to do with me now having a girlfriend and not frequenting that particular club anymore. I hope you are right and we are getting our personalities back.

Hmmm cps or Halo?

Sakura_chan

We Need Community wrote: »

You might be on to something there. A few years ago I was in a club in Galway and basically the conversation between people was basically what you said, the girls were asking questions like "Where to you work" "How much do you earn" "do you have a car" "do you own a house" etc if you didnt tick all the boxes they basically moved onto the next guy. They seemed to be husband hunting measuring guys by what they owned and not what kind of person they were, I was disgusted with it to be honest. I hav'nt come across this kind of greed related chatting up for a while now but that could be to do with me now having a girlfriend and not frequenting that particular club anymore. I hope you are right and we are getting our personalities back.

If someone asked me those questions it would make the filtering process pretty simple. I would have zero interest. This kind of greed is an immediate turn off...

myflipflops

At the height of a boom, the majority of people I would meet seemed to be obsessed with earnings and status symbols and the like. It wasn't a female thing. In fact historically, it's probably much more a male thing as guys play one upmanship games with each other. Generations ago, they might have actually had a physical battle but in Celtic Tiger Ireland, we battled on wealth and the perception of success.

Men are probably way less likely to ask the same question of women because it's not a great way of chatting a woman up. Simple as.

EricPraline

myflipflops wrote: »

At the height of a boom, the majority of people I would meet seemed to be obsessed with earnings and status symbols and the like. It wasn't a female thing.

Agreed, it certainly didn't only pertain to women. In terms of singles it seemed it was common-place for men to boast about their salary or the number of properties that they owned. Unsurprisingly you don't hear that so much these days.

However, when it came to couples, I often found that the female partner was more competitive and "aspirational" - read, was keener to have a bigger, more expensive wedding/car/house to out-do her friends. Purely anecdotal of course.

myflipflops wrote: »

Men are probably way less likely to ask the same question of women because it's not a great way of chatting a woman up. Simple as.

It's not a great way of chatting a man up either. The kind of questions the OP is talking about would scream "gold digger". Fine if that's what a man is looking for, but perhaps some guys are a little more cautious now that credit isn't flowing so freely.

I don't get what's wrong with asking what someone does for a living you probably spend a third of your day doing whatever it is, so I'm always curious

Of course if they follow up with your car, I don't get that unless they have a motors interest :pac:

dMaN24

And also, I see it backfire if a guy asks a girl about how much she earns.

*checking out cute girl in bar from top to bottom, obtain eyecontact..Smile..*
"-So.. How much do you earn?"

:rolleyes:
I'll just grab me coat..

D'Agger

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't get what's wrong with asking what someone does for a living you probably spend a third of your day doing whatever it is, so I'm always curious

Of course if they follow up with your car, I don't get that unless they have a motors interest :pac:

+1 - there's nothing wrong with finding out what somebody does for a living - it's a massive part of your life...that said I've always found it a bit rude for somebody to come out and say "How much are you earning?"

dMaN24

PaulieC wrote: »

+1 - there's nothing wrong with finding out what somebody does for a living - it's a massive part of your life...that said I've always found it a bit rude for somebody to come out and say "How much are you earning?"

But that feels like a more general thing.

If i were to turn up in a -11 Merc or whatever brand new vehicle i am dead sure atleast one would ask.
"-Wow, how can you afford that? How much do you earn?"

Even though anyone could check out the average wages for someone in my business, i feel that my wages are just that. My business and mine alone.

Even though it might just be out of curiousity it would also quickly be put down to jealousy.

D'Agger

dMaN24 wrote: »

But that feels like a more general thing.

If i were to turn up in a -11 Merc or whatever brand new vehicle i am dead sure atleast one would ask.
"-Wow, how can you afford that? How much do you earn?"

Even though anyone could check out the average wages for someone in my business, i feel that my wages are just that. My business and mine alone.

Even though it might just be out of curiousity it would also quickly be put down to jealousy.

From my experience any time myself or friends have seen somebody we know driving a nice, expensive looking car - I've asked "Do you mind me asking how much it set you back?" - my interest would be in the car, I'd ask for other specs like engine size, miles on the clock and whether the driver got value for money.

My point is that coming out and directly asking somebody what they earn per annum is a bit rude. I've been asked before - "What's the money like in that type of business?" and I've had no problem giving a rough estimate eg. 22-25k - I've given a strong indication of where I am financially without having to give an exact amount.

I just think when it comes to asking somebody about their personal finances - and that's what they are: Personal, it's about being discreet and asking in a subtle way

MidgetWrestler

Sakura_chan wrote: »

Have you been socialising in different places since you noticed the change or are the same old haunts getting a different crowd....?

Going to the same type of place, but in different towns.. not posh at all, the normal late bar type of place.

We Need Community wrote: »

You might be on to something there ..... if you didnt tick all the boxes they basically moved onto the next guy. They seemed to be husband hunting measuring guys by what they owned and not what kind of person they were, I was disgusted with it to be honest..

That's pretty much how I perceived it, was disgusting. And funny about Galway, that's where I noticed it more than anywhere else, every time I went to Galway, maybe 2 or 3 times a year, it wouldn't matter if it were the Quays or the Kings Head or the Front door.. was always the same

myflipflops wrote: »

...it's probably much more a male thing as guys play one upmanship games with each other.

Hadn't thought of it that way, I'm sure some guys would be looking for someone to ask that question, to give them the opening to announce it, OH Yeah, I'm in FINANCE.. yeah, yea, the Beemer, yea it's new... O - M - G loike it was only 65 grand, a bargain yea - ponces

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't get what's wrong with asking what someone does for a living

Nothing wrong with it at all, but when you've just met someone, you'd think finding out their name, or where they come from, or what the special occasion is, or who's getting married would come first. I mean, it's meant to be about liking the person.

Haven't come across it in a while now, so going to presume that it's not as widespread as it used to be.. either that, or they've become less obvious about it

--Kaiser--

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't get what's wrong with asking what someone does for a living you probably spend a third of your day doing whatever it is, so I'm always curious

Of course if they follow up with your car, I don't get that unless they have a motors interest :pac:

Asking what you do for a living isn't an issue. Asking how much you earn is something else entirely. I've never been asked that before but if I was I'd immediately file the girl under 'H' for Hoochie

G86

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Asking what you do for a living isn't an issue. Asking how much you earn is something else entirely.

+1. I honestly don't see why it would have anything to do with your attraction to someone. I know some women (mostly 30yrs+) who wouldn't even consider dating a guy who wasn't on the same income level. One in particular, refused to consider a relationship with a guy she met once she found out he was a student. I don't understand that way of thinking at all - it's ridiculous. I guess it all boils down to what makes your world go around - love or money.

stupidusername

I have no interest in what a person earns, and wouldn't even consider this a factor in whether or not I would be with them. though I may have inadvertently asked something like these questions as part of conversation (not the money thing though) and I hope that's not the way I came off.

However, as much as we like to think we're all better than animals, in many many ways we're very similar. the idea behind wanting a rich partner is so that they can provide for you, and you don't have to worry about money, and in our big human world where money gets you everything else it's not that mad an idea that this is something that interests women.

To clarify, I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it may be quite natural. and of course in the non-nature kind of way I agree that it's everything else that's important.

magneticimpulse

I think men have to potential to be equally rude. All they ask is what do you do and where are you from? Can they not think of something original to come up with? (edit: only a few guys was really rude about this to me...especially when i mention where i come from and they are extremely snobby about that unfortunately)

Not to mention men who paint women with the same brush, especially if they take a dislike to women in certain cities. I think if men went out there with a more positive attitude the world wouldnt see so gloom. They are obviously concentrating on the negative aspects and blowing it out of proportion. If they stopped to think about the good times and times they really enjoyed themselves, maybe the negative grey cloud above their head would go away.

If they wind women up the wrong way, of course its going to hit them smack in the face. If they learned to go out there, put everything they have encountered in the past behind them and approached women postively I bet they would have a different response.

Maybe they need to address some negative encounters in his life and put that behind them. If men really made an effort to talk to these women they so much hate now, they might even find those women he hated do have a nice side to them. They wouldnt clash with them, and the world would be a better place. They might even find he can get on with these sorts of women. If you go against the grain, you will always end up bashing your head against the wall. If you go about with a chip on your shoulder, the chip is only going to get bigger.

I suggest men make up with these sorts of women, you might even surprise at how everything starts to look like a rainbow in the end!! It doesnt mean you have to accept these sort of womens attitude, not does it mean your giving into their behaviour, but to accept that they are different. Im not saying by any means you have to date or even marry these women...but just to have positive conversation with them...if you spoke to them for more then 10 mins...they might drop down their wall and you might even shock yourself and drop your guard down.

The world would be a boring place if everybody was carbon copies of each other. Variety is the spice of life. People can make mistakes on nights out, say the wrong things. But if they are never given a chance to shine, then how will they ever impress you? How will they ever have a chance to show that they do have a heart and loving side? If you constantly insist on seeing the negative, you will only see the negative!!!

Be positive!! Put negativity behind!! Dont be so stubborn!! Remember if you keep swimming up stream, you will never get anywhere. Just go with the flow. Things can change, things can have a positive outcome...you just need to be open to that change and I think you can be.

Women are still the same species in Ireland as they were 5 years ago.

Otis Driftwood

magneticimpulse you post is so chock full of generalisations I dont even know where to begin so what I will say is please read our charter.You have been pulled up on for making massive generalisations before so consider this a final warning.

Insulting the OP is also not no on,nor is making alot of assumptions about him.

Kindly rein it in when posting here in future,thanks.

magneticimpulse

I wasnt insulting the OP...the OP had made a huge generalisation about women on nights out. That women were stuck up. It might have seem as an insult towards OP, but it certainly was not my intention. I dont intend to make generalisations about people, i just express my opinions...and in writing, they certainly seem to ruffle a few feathers. I can assure you in person, it would not come across that way. I do have to admit when I express myself online, it can be taken up the wrong way by others.

I was merely suggesting that if people thought that way in general, of course it will seem negative. Women are still the same now as they were 5 years ago.

So this thread in itself is a huge generalisation about women and their attitudes towards men.

Im just saying people should think positive when approaching women and they will get positive feedback. That is not an insult!

tbh

MidgetWrestler wrote: »

Anyone noticed that a couple of years ago, you'd be out in a bar, and get talking to a girl, and the only things she'd want to know were what you worked at, what car you had and how much €€ you had..

nope.

magneticimpulse wrote: »

. All they ask is what do you do and where are you from?

that's all we do is it? must have missed that memo.

Pure Sound

jugger0 wrote: »

Hmmm cps or Halo?

Ha Ha it was Halo

Sakura_chan wrote: »

If someone asked me those questions it would make the filtering process pretty simple. I would have zero interest. This kind of greed is an immediate turn off...

It was easy for me to filter it out but the problem was that the men were the same, boasting about careers, cars etc. Just hearing that people were like this is what disgusted me. Women like this are open for liars really and men like that are open to money grabbers. They deserve each other really :pac:

MidgetWrestler wrote: »

That's pretty much how I perceived it, was disgusting. And funny about Galway, that's where I noticed it more than anywhere else, every time I went to Galway, maybe 2 or 3 times a year, it wouldn't matter if it were the Quays or the Kings Head or the Front door.. was always the same

They are the type of pubs in Galway that I would expect that type of behaviour, pretentious people will be found there along with the good type

magneticimpulse wrote: »

I think men are equally rude....

I agree with you on the staying positive thing but not with other stuff, your post contradicts itself you say to go with the grain but you also talk about everyone being the same would make things boring, surely going with the grain would make everyone the same.

I also don't think that we should embrace the people that we disagree with. Greed in my opinion is the cause of everything that is wrong with the world and these people are representing it on a local scale. I could never agree with these kinds of actions as it is so wrong on so many levels

magneticimpulse

^ Well i actually stir clear of those questions and lead the conversation in another direction.

One time I think about 2007, I met these lads and they were auctioners. This guy kept going on about how come someone my own age did not own a house. Well I was trying to explain that it would only result in a bubble (which we know happened). He was totally on his high horse about what he thought was a fantastic job to be in and looked down on me because of what I do and that i did not own enough materialistic things. After meeting him, I knew from that moment on, its not possible for all men to be like him.

[edit: i actually now recall the remainder of 2007...i remember a few occassions, where i said i was an air hostess or nurse from waterford or clare and the reaction i got from guys was completely different as oppose to when i told them my real occupation and where im from. i stopped this however as i do have a mouthy friend who blurts out the worse things in front of potential boyfriends...of course she shouted at the top of her voice where im really from. one time on a date, she kept bringing up this other guy i have absolute no interest in...so now i am just me(not good to lie), but it was fun the complete opposite reaction i got when guys thought i was a nurse from waterford.]


I also find when I say where I am originally from I get men slagging me off. But I worked really hard in life to get to make something out of my life. I dont let that get to me thou, because I know I am a person worth talking to and getting to know. Its their loss really.

So when a guy chats me up, its usually more light hearted and witty. The moment I hear "where you from...what do you do?"....I discuss something else. I understand its a ice breaker, and a bit more sensible then a cheesy chat up lines. I understand its not easy for guys to approach women (well from what a read on here, dont want to be making generalisations again). I tend to answer the where Im from bit...again i know it will always result in a negative feedback, but I dont care anymore, its something im not ashamed off. It seems like guys are obsessed about where you come from. Equally when my friends say where they come from (opposite type of place to mine)...guys tell them that they are snobby!! Just because they happen to be from a certain place. I think men are too quick to form judgements is all im saying. I dont see what the point of asking the question is...if your from a "bad" place you get negative feedback, if your from a "good" place you get negative feedback. Its just so ridculous. I definitely dont feel anything personal about it now, having seen my friends getting slagged off just because they come from whats seen as a "nice" place.

Ive actually had a really positive response to meeting guys in pubs since then. Even now when they make a comment about where i am from, i dont make a big deal out of it. I just brush past that. If they have a hang up about it, i say, well ive done such and such with my life and worked hard to get out of that place i came from, but im certainly not ashame to come from there. Thats usually the end of that topic and we normally move onto something else.

No when i said going against the grain, i meant if you insist on something is negative it will only have a negative outcome. Im not saying that you should embrace their attitudes. But if people did talk to people, they might see they have a nice side. I like to think majority of people have a nice side and we cannot judge them just because of the types of pubs they hang out in or what clothes they wear. You cannot really judge people until you chat to them. At the end of the day, money does not bring anyone happiness. Even if people have materialistic things, does not mean they are horrible people? Does not mean that they are selfish or vain. You just cannot judge people until you have spoken to them for some length of time. Also women on nights out have prob had a few drinks (again dont want to be general, but if your in a pub there is a chance)...and they might not be the same as if they are in an office during the week.

Equally the same can be said for men. They might have had a few drinks too many and come off really rude or had a really stressful day at work. But another day, they might be a totally different person.

Either way its difficult to put any sort of judgement on people just in the pub/late night bar scene. I just wish Irish guys would give Irish women a break, as if dating is not difficult enough as it is, but forming quick judgements (personal experience on where im from and career) is not good. I just found dating in England so much easier from my own personal experience, guys were so much more open and i could say where im from and they never heard of it...so never got negative feedback. I really want to date an Irish guy, but it is so god damn hard when they are quick to have negative judgements. (i do still keep an open mind despite this and be positive, and continue the search of course...you have to keep trying and looking)

donfers

stupidusername wrote: »

I have no interest in what a person earns, and wouldn't even consider this a factor in whether or not I would be with them. though I may have inadvertently asked something like these questions as part of conversation (not the money thing though) and I hope that's not the way I came off.

However, as much as we like to think we're all better than animals, in many many ways we're very similar. the idea behind wanting a rich partner is so that they can provide for you, and you don't have to worry about money, and in our big human world where money gets you everything else it's not that mad an idea that this is something that interests women.

To clarify, I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it may be quite natural. and of course in the non-nature kind of way I agree that it's everything else that's important.

if your boyfriend used that type of rationale to explain his cheating i wonder would you write it off as a "c'est la vie" indiscretion


we can look for all the excuses in the world to justify what we do but horrible behaviour is horrible behaviour no matter how you want to dress it up

donfers

magneticimpulse wrote: »

^ Well i actually stir clear of those questions and lead the conversation in another direction.

One time I think about 2007, I met these lads and they were auctioners. This guy kept going on about how come someone my own age did not own a house. Well I was trying to explain that it would only result in a bubble (which we know happened). He was totally on his high horse about what he thought was a fantastic job to be in and looked down on me because of what I do and that i did not own enough materialistic things. After meeting him, I knew from that moment on, its not possible for all men to be like him.

[edit: i actually now recall the remainder of 2007...i remember a few occassions, where i said i was an air hostess or nurse from waterford or clare and the reaction i got from guys was completely different as oppose to when i told them my real occupation and where im from. i stopped this however as i do have a mouthy friend who blurts out the worse things in front of potential boyfriends...of course she shouted at the top of her voice where im really from. one time on a date, she kept bringing up this other guy i have absolute no interest in...so now i am just me(not good to lie), but it was fun the complete opposite reaction i got when guys thought i was a nurse from waterford.]


I also find when I say where I am originally from I get men slagging me off. But I worked really hard in life to get to make something out of my life. I dont let that get to me thou, because I know I am a person worth talking to and getting to know. Its their loss really.

So when a guy chats me up, its usually more light hearted and witty. The moment I hear "where you from...what do you do?"....I discuss something else. I understand its a ice breaker, and a bit more sensible then a cheesy chat up lines. I understand its not easy for guys to approach women (well from what a read on here, dont want to be making generalisations again). I tend to answer the where Im from bit...again i know it will always result in a negative feedback, but I dont care anymore, its something im not ashamed off. It seems like guys are obsessed about where you come from. Equally when my friends say where they come from (opposite type of place to mine)...guys tell them that they are snobby!! Just because they happen to be from a certain place. I think men are too quick to form judgements is all im saying. I dont see what the point of asking the question is...if your from a "bad" place you get negative feedback, if your from a "good" place you get negative feedback. Its just so ridculous. I definitely dont feel anything personal about it now, having seen my friends getting slagged off just because they come from whats seen as a "nice" place.

Ive actually had a really positive response to meeting guys in pubs since then. Even now when they make a comment about where i am from, i dont make a big deal out of it. I just brush past that. If they have a hang up about it, i say, well ive done such and such with my life and worked hard to get out of that place i came from, but im certainly not ashame to come from there. Thats usually the end of that topic and we normally move onto something else.

No when i said going against the grain, i meant if you insist on something is negative it will only have a negative outcome. Im not saying that you should embrace their attitudes. But if people did talk to people, they might see they have a nice side. I like to think majority of people have a nice side and we cannot judge them just because of the types of pubs they hang out in or what clothes they wear. You cannot really judge people until you chat to them. At the end of the day, money does not bring anyone happiness. Even if people have materialistic things, does not mean they are horrible people? Does not mean that they are selfish or vain. You just cannot judge people until you have spoken to them for some length of time. Also women on nights out have prob had a few drinks (again dont want to be general, but if your in a pub there is a chance)...and they might not be the same as if they are in an office during the week.

Equally the same can be said for men. They might have had a few drinks too many and come off really rude or had a really stressful day at work. But another day, they might be a totally different person.

Either way its difficult to put any sort of judgement on people just in the pub/late night bar scene. I just wish Irish guys would give Irish women a break, as if dating is not difficult enough as it is, but forming quick judgements (personal experience on where im from and career) is not good. I just found dating in England so much easier from my own personal experience, guys were so much more open and i could say where im from and they never heard of it...so never got negative feedback. I really want to date an Irish guy, but it is so god damn hard when they are quick to have negative judgements. (i do still keep an open mind despite this and be positive, and continue the search of course...you have to keep trying and looking)

as a man i can't really respond to that unless you tell me where you're from?

forget personality and breast size and all that malarkey, where girls are from is all we guys talk about right now

stupidusername

donfers wrote: »

if your boyfriend used that type of rationale to explain his cheating i wonder would you write it off as a "c'est la vie" indiscretion


we can look for all the excuses in the world to justify what we do but horrible behaviour is horrible behaviour no matter how you want to dress it up

what are you talking about? I was merely saying that there is a possible explanation for why this may be of interest to women. As I already said I'm not saying it's right, it's just that it's kinda natural. instinct pretty much. And many animals don't live monogamously, so you can't compare humans to animals in that respect as humans expect to live monogamously unless otherwise discussed.

donfers

stupidusername wrote: »

what are you talking about? I was merely saying that there is a possible explanation for why this may be of interest to women. As I already said I'm not saying it's right, it's just that it's kinda natural. instinct pretty much. And many animals don't live monogamously, so you can't compare humans to animals in that respect as humans expect to live monogamously unless otherwise discussed.

so we can't compare humans to animals with regard to the animal instinct of spreading ones seed yet we can compare humans to animals when it comes to the female expecting security from the male

oh and the reaosn for this is that humans are "expected" to live monogamously unlike animals but when it comes to women asking guys how much they earn and what car they drive we can do this because the female squirrels won't let the male squirrels bang them unless they have seen how many nuts they have stored away or perhaps Mrs. blackbird won't put out for mr. blackbird unless the nest is laden in the finest pine wood


it's an interesting viewpoint, I am particularly impressed by your selective use of evolutionary theory

stupidusername

donfers wrote: »

so we can't compare humans to animals with regard to the animal instinct of spreading ones seed yet we can compare humans to animals when it comes to the female expecting security from the male

oh and the reaosn for this is that humans are "expected" to live monogamously unlike animals but when it comes to women asking guys how much they earn and what car they drive we can do this because the female squirrels won't let the male squirrels bang them unless they have seen how many nuts they have stored away or perhaps Mrs. blackbird won't put out for mr. blackbird unless the nest is laden in the finest pine wood

it's an interesting viewpoint, I am particularly impressed by your selective use of evolutionary theory

Will you read what I wrote properly please. if you still don't understand what I'm saying then I'm not going to post any more replies to this.

I'm not being selective about evolutionary theories i'm saying all of it applies here. there's still ongoing debate as to whether or not humans should be monogamous but generally it is accepted that they are. so i'm not being selective i'm saying for some animals monogamy is expected, others it's not.

Rabble Rabble

I find it a bit off when a woman is being honest - as stupidusername is here - that she is shouted down. There is an animal nature to humans. I used to be on dating sites and this is what I noticed..

1) The taller the woman the more she wanted a taller guy. Her tallness did not make up for the guy. This was a desire to be "protected" sublimated to a conscious sexual urge - an attraction to tall people.
2) The richer the woman, or the better her job the more likely she was to mention the financial circumstances of her purported partner. As in "I have a good job, so should you".

So, during the boom the standards were raised. Thas all.

magneticimpulse

^ Yep at the end of the day...we are all animals like it or not. We definitely evolved from them and therefore Darwins laws of attraction and survival of the fittest all come into play. Its true, its irrespective of the dead celtic tiger.

I cannot dispute that fact. There will be exceptions in the gene pool of course, like tall woman going with short guy, same sex etc. Its not a clear cut a theory. As far as reproduction goes, women do seek a partner who looks attractive, kind and has potential to be a caring father and vice versa.

Logical Fallacy

magneticimpulse wrote: »

^ Yep at the end of the day...we are all animals like it or not. We definitely evolved from them and therefore Darwins laws of attraction and survival of the fittest all come into play. Its true, its irrespective of the dead celtic tiger.

Hmmm...you could easily argue that man having developed to the point of being able to study and understand the mechanism of nature that was originally documented by the likes of Darwin and Wallace et al means, in effect, it no longer applies.

People love to mention the old biology of everything but that simple fact is that even since Darwin first opened his notebook society and the world we live in is a vastly different place. Go back a few evolution points and the original factors that mates would have looked for in each other is largely moot.

Hell, i would go so far as to say you could rearrange Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but that's just me.

Cicero

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Hmmm...you could easily argue that man having developed to the point of being able to study and understand the mechanism of nature that was originally documented by the likes of Darwin and Wallace et al means, in effect, it no longer applies.

not sure it would be that easy....

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

People love to mention the old biology of everything but that simple fact is that even since Darwin first opened his notebook society and the world we live in is a vastly different place. Go back a few evolution points and the original factors that mates would have looked for in each other is largely moot.

I don't believe it is...just because we have TV's, Cars, electricity etc, doesn't mean we have progressed much further either biologically or socially in the last few centuries..we still organise ourselves mostly, as a family unit, we still react to hormones, pheromones, body shape and all of the other "animal" instincts....a significant % of the worlds population are living in poverty...and those who aren't are merely 2-3 wage packets away from homelessness...

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Hell, i would go so far as to say you could rearrange Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but that's just me.

It would be quite difficult achieving self-actualization while standing naked, hungry and cold at the side of the road.....

magneticimpulse

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Hmmm...you could easily argue that man having developed to the point of being able to study and understand the mechanism of nature that was originally documented by the likes of Darwin and Wallace et al means, in effect, it no longer applies.

You can go ahead and study the mechansims of nature all you want, but it wont change it. You cannot deny that we are all made up of DNA, RNA, nucleic acids and proteins (animals and humans).

Hell you can even try to change or mimic it, but why would you want to when nature has already set in place an elegant subconscious method for natural selection of the fittest?

Maybe the pure fact that humans were better at this selection has meant we have become maybe the top of the species ladder and developed the way we have.

Why would you want to change millions of years of evolution in one Saturday night in a Galway pub? Although I do admit putting alcohol into the equation limits man's ability for a deconvolution of a selection of fine ladies.

Logical Fallacy

Cicero wrote: »

not sure it would be that easy....

Good, because i am not saying it is that easy to prove, merely saying we could head off down that route and come up with something interesting.

I don't believe it is...just because we have TV's, Cars, electricity etc, doesn't mean we have progressed much further either biologically or socially in the last few centuries..we still organise ourselves mostly, as a family unit, we still react to hormones, pheromones, body shape and all of the other "animal" instincts....a significant % of the worlds population are living in poverty...and those who aren't are merely 2-3 wage packets away from homelessness...

But, the simple fact is that we have a concept of poverty, animals don't. Once again, not saying it is that simple, just saying the rules to the game have changed, almost completely. Animals can kill for what they need, we kill and go to jail. Animal reactions are basic, human reactions are tempered by self awareness.

It would be quite difficult achieving self-actualization while standing naked, hungry and cold at the side of the road.....

lol, i didn't say turn it upside down, i merely said you could rearrange certain things in order of importance or impact based on modern society as opposed to the late 50's/60's when Maslow was developing his thoughts around things.

Logical Fallacy

magneticimpulse wrote: »

You can go ahead and study the mechansims of nature all you want, but it wont change it.

Hell you can even try to change or mimick it, but why would you want to when nature has already set in place an elegant subconsious method for natural selection of the fittest?

Maybe the pure fact that humans were better at this selection has meant we have become maybe the top of the species ladder and developed the way we have.

Why would you want to change millions of years of evolution in one Saturday night in a Galway pub?

You have completely missed my point. I am not talking about changing it, i am talking about removing ourself, slowly , over time, from the process of purely biological interests in reproduction...which is what humanity has done.

stupidusername

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

People love to mention the old biology of everything but that simple fact is that even since Darwin first opened his notebook society and the world we live in is a vastly different place. Go back a few evolution points and the original factors that mates would have looked for in each other is largely moot.

Hell, i would go so far as to say you could rearrange Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but that's just me.

humans haven't changed at all really. I mean sure the things we think we need have changed, we've become more greedy but basic instinct comes down to survival and reproduction. all of it does in one way or another. we are animals and even though we might know we do something we might not understand why.

humans haven't changed what they look for in a mate at all. not as far as i can see anyway. someone looking for a wealthy mate, this is because that person knows they can be taken care of, therefore their safety is much more assured. and this is what a person wants for their offspring. as far as I can see it call all be explained in animal terms.

magneticimpulse wrote: »

You can go ahead and study the mechansims of nature all you want, but it wont change it.

Hell you can even try to change or mimick it, but why would you want to when nature has already set in place an elegant subconsious method for natural selection of the fittest?

oh don't get me started on natural selection.. humans, due to our own 'intelligence' have screwed up the race. but that's another discussion

Red Hand

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

You have completely missed my point. I am not talking about changing it, i am talking about removing ourself, slowly , over time, from the process of purely biological interests in reproduction...which is what humanity has done.

To a degree, I agree. Some people when they reach a certain standard of living, they may not want kids cause for whatever reason (have interests/careers/don't want to give up freedom etc). But these, obviously, will always be a minority imo. They will be bred out.

In the past, these people would still have had the same inclination, but because of lack of birth control/societal demands or whatever, they weren't able to do this.

We in Ireland are only 200 years away from a population boom.

(Edit: Hmmmm...I may have picked up the wrong end of the stick)

Rabble Rabble

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

You have completely missed my point. I am not talking about changing it, i am talking about removing ourself, slowly , over time, from the process of purely biological interests in reproduction...which is what humanity has done.

Clearly it hasn't. You are stating a "fact" with no proof whatsoever.

I already posted this. Women on dating sites generally are asked for their height, and their preferred height of their partner. It is never ever smaller. Despite the fact that a 5'11'' woman is excluding lots of men from her search, she still does because she is not attracted to smaller men, even though modern society she does not depend on the physical strength of the man for protection - we have the police for that - or financial potential.

In an even more obvious example men fall for beauty, youth and body shape - all of which represent fertility and health.

I'll believe that things have changed when 50 year old men, of low stature and little money can grab the hottest and richest 19 year women and people dont bat an eye; or an 60 year old woman and a 30 year old man were commonly seen couples.

The whole thing is based on our evolutionary background.

magneticimpulse

^ exactly. When evolution came on topic...i did mention there are exceptions. Invariably, these people cannot reproduce. They have no interest in reproduction and therefore it does not matter. But their genes/DNA willnot be passed on as a result. And their biological presence/genetics is wiped out from the selection.

So I still think that all this is regardless of a recession. Because regardless of money, humans will still want to reproduce and will only stop doing so if the world ends.

Stheno

magneticimpulse wrote: »

[edit: i actually now recall the remainder of 2007...i remember a few occassions, where i said i was an air hostess or nurse from waterford or clare and the reaction i got from guys was completely different as oppose to when i told them my real occupation

There were a couple of studies done 18 months - 2 years ago, where female MBA students went out as a group and in one case told men they met that they were doing MBA's and in another case told them they had more traditional female careers (nurse, air hostess e.g.) The studies found they were more likely to get more interest from guys when they said they were nurses/air hostesses etc, it got a bit of press at the time.

Personally for me, what a guy does is important, but from a different perspective, I tend to work long hours, I can have periods where I have to study quite a lot to update my qualifications, and I occasionally have to travel with work. In that regard a guy who works a regular 9-5 role, and wants to eat dinner at seven, evenings and weekends free to do stuff together etc is never going to be happy, and neither am I Never brought it up on a first date though!

miec

"How much are you earning?"

I have not read all the replies to this thread but in all of my 39 years on this planet (I am a woman) I have never asked a stranger how much do you earn, I barely even ask friends that, I would be mortified to ask someone their earnings. The only time this has come into the equation was when I was getting married and when I lived with someone, otherwise, what a person earns is no one elses business. I am glad to say too that no one has ever asked me that question either. I do ask what someone does for a living mainly to have something to talk about, I personally don't care about what someone does unless it is illegal / sinister, or they have spent most of their adult life (in good times and recession) unemployed. Otherwise I don't care, it is the person that matters.

On to the whole height thing with women though, I have dated men smaller than myself, I'm 5 7 and the smallest guy I dated was 5 4, and I must admit, it felt uncomfortable. I dare not wear heels with him and I felt slightly embarressed as I could easily pat him on the head, although I really liked him, I prefer someone either my height or taller, my preference is taller men, I don't know why, it just feels nice, I guess in the same way that men like women with smaller waists and a nice shapely/curvy body that is propertional. In essence we are quite base creatures but I always add a caveat, if I met a man who had fantastic qualities and a great personality but not much to look at, then I would rather him than a good looking man who bored me.

donfers

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

I find it a bit off when a woman is being honest - as stupidusername is here - that she is shouted down. There is an animal nature to humans. I used to be on dating sites and this is what I noticed..

1) The taller the woman the more she wanted a taller guy. Her tallness did not make up for the guy. This was a desire to be "protected" sublimated to a conscious sexual urge - an attraction to tall people.
2) The richer the woman, or the better her job the more likely she was to mention the financial circumstances of her purported partner. As in "I have a good job, so should you".

So, during the boom the standards were raised. Thas all.

I love how when some woman is questioned or debated with (this is a discussion forum after all) some white knighter jumps in and says she is being "shouted down", truly disingenuous and insidious posturing that is never questioned

incidentally despite all the strawmen responses, all I am trying to do is determine if one is a supporter of the nature or nurture theories or do you just pick and choose as one goes to justify one's behaviour?

for example, it seems the same person is saying yes i am a big supporter of evolutionary theory when it comes to women choosing taller men and wealthier men as it means their offspring have a better chance of surviving and prospering

and then this person also says i am not a supporter of men who impregnate a lot of different women because even though this means he is increasing the likelihood of his offspring surviving and prospering I have unilaterally deemed it ethically wrong and decided to bring ethics into this side of the debate

be one or the other, call horrible behaviour for what it is or justify all this stuff using the biological argument, but saying society expects one form of behaviour (monogamy) yet on the other hand attempting to justify women asking a guy's salary or what car he drives is the epitome of a hypocritical one-sided and inconsistent argument

it's not about right or wrong, it's about being consistent in the views you hold

stupidusername

donfers wrote: »

for example, yes i am a big supporter of evolutionary theory when it comes to women choosing taller men and wealthier men as it means their offspring have a better chance of surviving and prospering

yet i am not a supporter of men who impregnate a lot of different women because even though this means he is increasing the likelihood of his offspring surviving and prospering I have unilaterally deemed it ethically wrong and decided to bring ethics into this side of the debate

be one or the other, call horrible behaviour for what it is or justify all this stuff using the biological argument, but saying society expects one form of behaviour (monogamy) yet on the other hand attempting to justify women asking a guy's salary or what car he drives is the epitome of a hypocritical one-sided and inconsistent argument

it's not about right or wrong, it's about being consistent in the views you hold

I am being consistent, you're just not understanding me.

are you saying that you understand why our instincts may tell us one thing, but you think we as humans and being more intelligent than animals should know better ethically than to let our instincts take over?

clearly the idea of monogamy amongst humans hasn't come from nowhere, I mean I don't know much about history but it's not just society deeming it acceptable, it must be the way humans have always done it. I don't know though. in terms of monogamy any animal you can point out if they're monogamous or not, whereas humans in our infinite wisdom don't know whether or not we're monogamous. maybe we are a monogamous species and it's the defects in the race that are the exceptions. I don't know.

MidgetWrestler

Didn't expect a debate on natural selection, as the original post was intended to be a positive observation on my experiences in the real world over the past year or two. I noticed an improvement, and wanted to see if it was just me, or had others noticed it too.

Having said that, and read the replies, natural selection is what it is... survival of the fittest, and the demise of those unwilling to adapt. As humans, I think we are probably the most adaptive of all the species, we create tools to do what our hands can't.
Other than the wheel, probably the most important invention of the industrial age, was the light bulb.. it paved the way for shift work.. until then, industrial work on a large scale was limited to daylight hours only. Now I'm not looking to start a fresh debate on industrial advances, but just as an example, look at how quickly the human body and mind can adapt to shift work. The circadian rythm is still there, and while it affects us, it no longer dictates us. Anyone there who works long hours or shifts knows this.
These days, the fittest don't longer always survive, and the weak sometimes prosper.. Society, us, we as a people, have interfered with the process of selection to such an extend, that it does not apply in the same way as it does in nature. Call it un-natural selection maybe?

Logical Fallacy

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Clearly it hasn't. You are stating a "fact" with no proof whatsoever.

I already posted this. Women on dating sites generally are asked for their height, and their preferred height of their partner. It is never ever smaller. Despite the fact that a 5'11'' woman is excluding lots of men from her search, she still does because she is not attracted to smaller men, even though modern society she does not depend on the physical strength of the man for protection - we have the police for that - or financial potential.

In an even more obvious example men fall for beauty, youth and body shape - all of which represent fertility and health.

I'll believe that things have changed when 50 year old men, of low stature and little money can grab the hottest and richest 19 year women and people dont bat an eye; or an 60 year old woman and a 30 year old man were commonly seen couples.

The whole thing is based on our evolutionary background.

Apologies, didn't mean to be implying that i was right and everyone else is wrong...i just felt it was fairly obvious that far more complex communicative skills, emotional spectrum and societal influences mean that human coupling is a far more complex game than that of animals.

Sure, people might look for this and that with regards to partners, but humans have the interest caveat of being able to completely derail any partners advances by putting there foot in their mouth, revealing a characteristic or habit that they find distasteful etc.

I would basically say it's a lot more complex than you are making it out, and far more complex that the mating rituals of animals and the subsequent "survival of the fittest" (which wasn't even Darwin terminology ) are no longer based in the simplicity of physical attributes. As you yourself have said, what need for strength now in a society where safety,food and shelter can be guaranteed by other means?

magneticimpulse

Just watching the Apprentice with Donald Trump and I have to say, I dont know what it is, but I find that guy extremely sexy. I know he is a very rich man, but it isnt that at all. I love how he has control, power and knows exactly what he's looking for.

So I suppose it throws Darwins theory sort of out the window for terms of being attractive. Donald Trump is not the sexiest of men by any means, but theres just something there....it must be my subconscious mind playing tricks.

Another man I find an attraction for is Julian Assange (ok we dont know about his court case in sweden etc)....but another guy I know I should not be attracted to but I am. He's always so calm, its like yeah, the americans want to kill me for wikileaks etc...but Im making the world a better place what have you. Again, another attraction i cant put finger on as to why. I just think its funny, how the laws of attraction work.

stupidusername

magneticimpulse wrote: »

Just watching the Apprentice with Donald Trump and I have to say, I dont know what it is, but I find that guy extremely sexy. I know he is a very rich man, but it isnt that at all. I love how he has control, power and knows exactly what he's looking for.

So I suppose it throws Darwins theory sort of out the window for terms of being attractive. Donald Trump is not the sexiest of men by any means, but theres just something there....it must be my subconscious mind playing tricks.

Another man I find an attraction for is Julian Assange (ok we dont know about his court case in sweden etc)....but another guy I know I should not be attracted to but I am.

but see that's the thing, it's not just about being physically attractive, it's about being able to provide, protect and giving good genes. it's all tied in. I often find some men who i'm not physically very attracted to attractive because of a part of their personality, like confidence. it's an admirable trait and what reason do I have for wanting to be with someone who's confident? I don't know, possibly cause it's going to mean we're treated better, or it may lead to more power in one way or another. i'm not very good at explaining myself :mad:

embracingLife

Have all of you been living under a rock-or are all of you just turned 18?!
This is the way it always has been!

I'm in my mid 30's and once a man gets into his late 20's women always ask these questions and in my own experience even more so now during the recession-not the opposite unfortunately.
Yes,yes maybe the venue is different and the wimmen mightn't be as direct than in other places but thats life in dear old Ireland.

A good example,a mate of mine is an unemployed solicitor but when he goes clubbing in any venue in Dublin,he doesn't say he's on the dole but just answers the "what do you work at?" question by saying "solicitor" and Bingo-he's in like Flynn!

Yet,when I tell birds my job-which is a trade and I'm working-I get blown off and the conversation dies totally by the attitude of the woman. Now,I'm not a total one dimensional person in case I'm going to get branded,but even my wide variety of sports/life experience/topics of conversation means nada when a woman hears what I work at.
I have spoofed and said I worked at another job and I've seen an immediate reaction from women to the positive.

Just my 2 cents! :rolleyes:

foxyboxer

embracingLife wrote: »

Have all of you been living under a rock-or are all of you just turned 18?!
This is the way it always has been!

I'm in my mid 30's and once a man gets into his late 20's women always ask these questions and in my own experience even more so now during the recession-not the opposite unfortunately.
Yes,yes maybe the venue is different and the wimmen mightn't be as direct than in other places but thats life in dear old Ireland.

A good example,a mate of mine is an unemployed solicitor but when he goes clubbing in any venue in Dublin,he doesn't say he's on the dole but just answers the "what do you work at?" question by saying "solicitor" and Bingo-he's in like Flynn!

Yet,when I tell birds my job-which is a trade and I'm working-I get blown off and the conversation dies totally by the attitude of the woman. Now,I'm not a total one dimensional person in case I'm going to get branded,but even my wide variety of sports/life experience/topics of conversation means nada when a woman hears what I work at.
I have spoofed and said I worked at another job and I've seen an immediate reaction from women to the positive.

Just my 2 cents! :rolleyes:

That's very true. I remember watching one of those tacky Sky One dating shows a few years back. The average-run-of-the-mill-looking guy in question worked in a chicken stuffing factory. Not exactly the most glamorous job in the world then.

During a speed dating event he was told to alternate his background work between Reality (The chicken factory) and Fantasy (that he was a fighter pilot for in the RAF). Needless to say the interest garnered by the Fantasy story provoked more interest. Very telling.

Kooli

foxyboxer wrote: »

That's very true. I remember watching one of those tacky Sky One dating shows a few years back. The average-run-of-the-mill-looking guy in question worked in a chicken stuffing factory. Not exactly the most glamorous job in the world then.

During a speed dating event he was told to alternate his background work between Reality (The chicken factory) and Fantasy (that he was a fighter pilot for in the RAF). Needless to say the interest garnered by the Fantasy story provoked more interest. Very telling.

Definitely interesting, but I'm not sure you can always assume that people's attitudes about a job are always money-related.

As has been said, your job is where you generally spend about a third of your life, so I want to know what it is if I am checking you out. Some jobs would be a huge turn-off, some would be a huge turn-on, for a wide variety of reasons, only ONE of which is money. I do think that for most people your job says a lot about you! It's as good a thing to judge someone on as any when it comes to brief getting-to-know you chat.

I would respond better to a pilot than a factory guy during speed dating simply because I would find it more interesting - and pilots earn feck all (I don't know about fighter pilots, but commercial ones).

embracingLife

What if you were told the chicken factory man owned the factory?

What would the women's reaction be then?!

On a side note,I know some men through my job who are very well off and they are-(shock horror)-builders/tradesmen, yet they are as intelligent,fully rounded human beings (even though they are covered in muck all day) than office lemmings who earn peanuts.

Come to think of it there's a man who owns an ordinary run of the mill business in Dublin who just bought himself a new Bentley! I can imagine what women say to him when they chat to him about his job and then see what he drives!

So,Kooli you are basing a man's personality mainly on his job rather than him as a person in his entirety? Of course only when you're "speed dating". Wow,I rest my case!

mood

Female here - the only reason I would ask anyone what they do is to make conversation. I find it hard to believe anyone would ask how much you earn or what car you drive.

OP I think you may have come across this so often because of the type of pub/bar you went to. Certain places attract a certain type of pretentious person. I had the misfortune to go to a certain well know club in Dublin once and the conversation consisted of where 'Mummy and Daddy holiday home was, LIKE!' said with a fake D4 accent!!! Worst night ever.