Clarification: Fine Gael DO NOT support Same-Sex Marriage.

nordisk celt83

This is an issue I'm sure will be of interest to many potential voters on this forum.

On politics.ie, a forumer has revealed that Fine Gael reps have sent him an official email outlining their opposition to changing the current status of marriage, while still favouring Civil-Partnership.

I hope this clarification is of relevance to some forumers when making their decisions on February 25th.

Labour, The Greens, ULA and Sinn Fein all favour equal marriage rights!!!


http://www.politics.ie/fine-gael/152305-fine-gael-do-not-support-same-sex-marriage.html

Azure_sky

I pretty much had a feeling they're not pro lgbt. One of their main support groups has always been practising Catholics and Protestants. They claim to trace their lineage back to Michael Collins but the truth is their lineage is a lot closer to the facist General Eoin O' Duffy. Assuming they go into government with Labour then at least they can be forced to make concessions on their policies. Fine Gael in power by themselves would be a nightmare.

nordisk celt83

+100 A very frightening prospect indeed.

Plek Trum

Thanks for that - narrows down my options nicely.

Endymion

Well last I looked the greens failed to implement takes breaks for civil partners. So no vote of those bastards either.

BanzaiBk

"Our country has more important matters to deal with than the issue of homosexual marriage."

Jerry Buttimer, Fine Gael, Cork South Central candidate

Said to my face at the door the other night.

Endymion

It's true. We also have more important things to worry about than stagg hunting, but FG seems happy to commit themselves to overturning the ban and helping out a few hundred rich landed gentry.

nordisk celt83

BanzaiBk wrote: »

"Our country has more important matters to deal with than the issue of homosexual marriage."

Jerry Buttimer, Cork South Central candidate

Said to my face at the door the other night.

Just to confirm, for others, that Jerry is running for Fine Gael, in Cork South Central... Similar reports of complete indifference, among FG candidates, are being reported at the doors nationwide!!!

BanzaiBk

nordisk celt83 wrote: »

Just to confirm, for others, that Jerry is running for Fine Gael, in Cork South Central... Similar reports of complete indifference, among FG candidates, are being reported at the doors nationwide!!!

Thanks, didn't even notice that I had left that out. Edited into my post there

Monty Burnz

Azure_sky wrote: »

I pretty much had a feeling they're not pro lgbt. One of their main support groups has always been practising Catholics and Protestants. They claim to trace their lineage back to Michael Collins but the truth is their lineage is a lot closer to the facist General Eoin O' Duffy.

I'm sorry, but that is a laughable statement.

/butts out again

Endymion

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that is a laughable statement.

/butts out again

I think your statement is laughable. It wasn't too long ago that a FG councillor/TD (Can't recall which) advocated buying all the foreign nationals a ticket home to solve the unemployment problem. Every party has it's nuts, but Enda didn't censor him.

nordisk celt83

Lest we forget that Fine Gael TD's actually voted against the Civil Partnership legislation!!!

nordisk celt83

^^^ The only political party with members to do so!!!

nordisk celt83

Just to draw further attention to the views held by some of Fine Gael's younger candidates...

Ms. Creighton further confirmed her position on twitter this morning with the following tweet:

@Clarabel @leoie @campaignforleo I supported the Civil Partnership Bill fully I dont support gay marriage @leoie pls dont misprepresent me (sic)

Another tweeter recounted a conversation that he had with sitting T.D. for Dublin West Dr. Leo Varadkar. Dr. Varadkar appears to share Ms. Creightons views on the civil partnership bill and indicated that

he would make sure that Fine Gael NEVER supported same-sex marriage.

AvaKinder

I had a canvasser call to the door on behalf of Terence Flanagan a few minutes ago.

I informed him that although there were a number of reasons I wouldn't be voting FG, the fact that their party stance was against civil marriage was one of the important ones to me. Chap tried to tell me that in he was sure that wasn't the case at all, and when I insisted that it was party policy to support CP but not marriage, he told me to phone TF and then practically ran from the door!

Dr. Baltar

I had suspected as much. That will bump Labour to my number one preference, throw Sinn Féin second and followed by Fine Gael. I was going to give them a first preference.

wonderfulname

I thought this was common knowledge, also I must ask, where have sinn fein said they support full marriage equality? I can't find it in their policy...

Dr. Baltar

wonderfulname wrote: »

I thought this was common knowledge, also I must ask, where have sinn fein said they support full marriage equality? I can't find it in their policy...

Considering that they have a "Sinn Féin LGBT" group I thought it went with the package. They're also pretty liberal on social issues. I cannot confirm it though.

wonderfulname

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

Considering that they have a "Sinn Féin LGBT" group I thought it went with the package. They're also pretty liberal on social issues. I cannot confirm it though.

Assumptions are a dangerous thing... This is their LGB(very silent T) policy document, there's a whole lot of words there, but they don't really say anything as far as I can see.

Chuchoter

No SF don't support full marriage just going on the document on their website.

TheSockMonster

I will not be voting FG so. Nor will I be voting Labour due to the fact that I think Eamon Gilmore is a pompous a-hole and because of their stand on restricted dog breeds. I think the way to go is to vote for the independents. Any member of a political party is nothing more than a puppet being controlled by the leader IMO. Independents, it seems to me, care more about the opinions of the people in their constituency and have less of an ulterior motive.

Annasopra

This is in labours manifesto by the way

LGBT rights

Labour is committed to holding a referendum to provide for constitutional recognition of samesex marriage. Labour also supports entitling all parties to a marriage or civil partnership to apply to adopt a child, while ensuring that all adoption decisions must be made in the best long-term interests of the child.

In the immediate term, Labour will enact provisions to extend the tax benefits of marriage to same sex couples in civil partnerships.

Labour is committed to ensuring all publicly funded colleges operate in accordance with the constitutional right to Freedom of Conscience.

Labour will ensure the five teaching colleges introduce a Freedom of Conscience clause so that trainee teachers no longer are obliged to undergo compulsory religious education.

Labour will amend Section 37 of the Employment Equality Acts (1998) and (2004) to end discrimination against LGBT teachers and trainee teachers, and to ensure that there is no obstacle to schools tackling homophobic bullying.

Labour will continue to fund Gay HIV Strategies.

Labour will advance equality for trans-gender people by enacting gender recognition legislation, and by extending to them protections afforded by existing equality legislation.

rainbow kirby

Not only do Fine Gael not approve of same-sex marriage, but they committed the mortal sin tonight of interrupting me during the Barcelona match. Definitely not getting a preference from me. :pac:

Socialist - Labour - Independents for me.

ninty9er

Endymion wrote: »

I think your statement is laughable. It wasn't too long ago that a FG councillor/TD (Can't recall which) advocated buying all the foreign nationals a ticket home to solve the unemployment problem. Every party has it's nuts, but Enda didn't censor him.

Said Councillor is running as an independent candidate in Limerick City having not gotten the party nomination.

As regards the policy, you will find quite a few members within each party that support gay marriage, whereas my own proposal within Fianna Fáil (currently on complete hold due to elections and likely to be for a while) is that all references to marriage be removed from legislation and the constitution and replaced with civil partnership as it is an intrinsically religious institution that has been socially conditioned into our national psyche and IMO has no place in legislation.

And please don't vote independent. As a FF activist I'd rather see a FG majority than a paralysed coalition with a dolly mixture of independents bleating for the benefit of sectional interests.

wonderfulname

ninty9er wrote: »

And please don't vote independent. As a FF activist I'd rather see a FG majority than a paralysed coalition with a dolly mixture of independents bleating for the benefit of sectional interests.

As a Labour activist I would agree, I'd like to see a concrete plan for the next few years, whatever that plan may be... wow, something in common!

KnifeWRENCH

crayolastereo wrote: »

No SF don't support full marriage just going on the document on their website.

On the Eleventh Hour tonight, a candidate from Sinn Féin insisted his party supported gay marriage. As did Labour.

FF and FG both said they supported civil partnership and wanted to see the effects of that bill before proceeding any further. I reckon FG would be more reluctant to consider gay marriage than FF though; they're a more socially conservative party due to their status as a "Christian democracy". So long as they continue to have Christianity as a core part of their ideology, they will never get a vote off me.

Also, the representative from FG on the show said that his party was against embryonic stem cell research. That, opposition to gay marriage, Christian democracy and Enda Kenny as leader are just 4 of the many reasons why FG will not get ANY preference off me come the 25th.

Azure_sky

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that is a laughable statement.

/butts out again

Speaking of lols. It always amused me how F.G. tries to link themselves to Michael Collins yet whenever they were in power the spent their time licking the arses of the British Tories. Enda Kenny is not intelligent enough to lead this country. His primary support group are simple and superstitious people living in the west coast who like to see things in black and white.

unfortunately

This is from the Sinn Fein site in 2007 when the Civil Union Bill was going through.

"Sinn Féin fully supports the right of same sex couples to marry and form a family, including by adoption. We also support the right of unmarried and same sex couples to enter into civil partnerships."

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/8549

Bottle_of_Smoke

The problem is a FG/LAb coalition won't bring in same sex marriage. Sure Labour support it but will they insist on it as a condition for entering a coalition? I don't think so Ted.

Labour haven't a chance of getting a majority government and have ruled out a left wing coalition with Sinn Fein/Greens/Independents(which is the only plausible government who would bring it in)

So voting Labour won't bring about same sex marriage, nor will voting FG. Therefore I wouldn't consider this an issue when voting in this election.

Ideologically this is wrong but for overall pragmatic/economic reasons I would vote FG/Greens.

Azure_sky

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The problem is a FG/LAb coalition won't bring in same sex marriage. Sure Labour support it but will they insist on it as a condition for entering a coalition? I don't think so Ted.

Incorrect. Fianna Fail didn't want to legalise homosexuality but pressure from Labour was effective. Of course Labour won't insist on legalising gay marriage as reason to go into a coalition government, that does not stop them from pressuring them once they are in power-just like they did with Fianna Fail in the nineties.

I'd rather vote for the Shinners or even Fianna Fail (Now that they have a leader with an I.Q. higher than a gnat) than the Blue Shirt conservotards. Fine Gael with Kenny as leader would be like the Irish equivalent of Bush and the Republicans in the U.S.

JustAddWater

You need to get yourself SKY+

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Not only do Fine Gael not approve of same-sex marriage, but they committed the mortal sin tonight of interrupting me during the Barcelona match. Definitely not getting a preference from me. :pac:

Socialist - Labour - Independents for me.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Azure_sky wrote: »

Incorrect. Fianna Fail didn't want to legalise homosexuality but pressure from Labour was effective. Of course Labour won't insist on legalising gay marriage as reason to go into a coalition government, that does not stop them from pressuring them once they are in power-just like they did with Fianna Fail in the nineties.

I just don't think that pressure will be effective. The way I see it is FG/Labour will be an unstable coalition(which will imo fall apart prematurely). If Lab tried to pressurise them they would risk being rejected by the electorate for not having proper priorities. Also its looking like they won't have the numbers to a apply a decent amount of pressure anyway. They could prob exert as much pressure from the opposition benches with SF

So either way same sex marriage just not gonna happen. Overall a Fine Gael majority or Fine Gael/Green/Ind coalition makes more sense for the country.

I'd rather vote for the Shinners or even Fianna Fail (Now that they have a leader with an I.Q. higher than a gnat) than the Blue Shirt conservotards. Fine Gael with Kenny as leader would be like the Irish equivalent of Bush and the Republicans in the U.S.

MArtin may be more charismatic but I don't believe for a second he's more intelligent than Cowen. And FF are just as conservative.

Freiheit

With same-sex marriage likely to become law in the Uk over the next few years, surely it's eventual enactment in Ireland is ineviatable. How long will it take?.

Goodshape

It took 30 years for us to catch up with decriminalizing. We can only hope that things have changed a bit - although not much reason to believe that's the case.

Even something vague or non committal would have probably gotten past me, but to actually and explicitly state non-support.... ****ers.

BanzaiBk

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Therefore I wouldn't consider this an issue when voting in this election.

It's very important to me that I vote for someone who recognises me as their equal.

kiwipower

Just wondering is there a way we could bring this thread to the attention of the political parties?
It would be interesting to let them know how the electorates are feeling and to give them a chance to interact.

After reading this thread I am definitely leaning towards voting for Labour. At least their policies seem to be more along social inclusion and self determination for individuals as apposed to other parties whom seem to think its up to government to dictate how citizens should live their private lives. Especially, if you also consider the stance of the other political parties on the issue of Abortion. (Though I am not certain on what labours stances is on this, the other two main parties seem determined to control what choices are available to woman by not providing them the right to self determine on something that will have a major impact on the rest of their lives.)

Bottle_of_Smoke

BanzaiBk wrote: »

It's very important to me that I vote for someone who recognises me as their equal.

That's a fair point and something I can't really argue against.

Only thing I'll say is they're politicians - they don't see any of us as their equals!

Azure_sky

kiwipower wrote: »

Especially, if you also consider the stance of the other political parties on the issue of Abortion. (Though I am not certain on what labours stances is on this, the other two main parties seem determined to control what choices are available to woman by not providing them the right to self determine on something that will have a major impact on the rest of their lives.)

This is one of the main reasons why Labour always lag behind F.F. and F.G.
Most Irish people these days are indifferent or mildly sympathetic to LGBT issues.
However most Irish people, even many non religious ones, are not pro abortion. I saw a poster stuck on top of a religious shop in O Connell street recently which read: A vote for Labour is a vote for killing babies.

Azure_sky

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If Lab tried to pressurise them they would risk being rejected by the electorate for not having proper priorities.

I don't think so. Once the primary economic concerns are addressed peoples attention can turn to social issues.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

And FF are just as conservative.

F.F. are populists. They're only as conservative as the average Irish voter. F.G. are officially a Christian Democratic party. They stand by their values; however their values severely clash with my own.

Annasopra

ERA produced some good documentation re canvassers

http://www.eracampaign.org/uploads/Declare_it_on_the_Doorstep-_lgbt.pdf

gmale

Azure_sky wrote: »

F.F. are populists. They're only as conservative as the average Irish voter. F.G. are officially a Christian Democratic party. They stand by their values; however their values severely clash with my own.

LOL I note the Wiki Page for Christian Democracy states that Eamon de Valera was a Notable Christan Democrat! I hope he is turning in his grave!

I have to say that i am deeply upset with FG on this. I understand that right now there are bigger more important things to deal with, saving this country from ruin for everybody. But for Lucinda and others to state they have no interest, no desire or no need to see all citizens as equal.

BanzaiBk

Well I just had Paula Desmond, candidate for Cork South Central, at my door. She told me that the Labour Party will stand by their views, be it the issue of same sex marriage or the financial security of the country. Anyone who has a flyer for Desmond will see that she has "the constitutional recognition of same-sex marriage" down as one of her top ten beliefs or something.

Anyway I find the "other issues" excuse pathetic quite frankly and it was nice to talk to a candidate who was willing to engage in any topic I asked her about.

Azure_sky

gmale wrote: »

LOL I note the Wiki Page for Christian Democracy states that Eamon de Valera was a Notable Christan Democrat! I hope he is turning in his grave!

I have to say that i am deeply upset with FG on this. I understand that right now there are bigger more important things to deal with, saving this country from ruin for everybody. But for Lucinda and others to state they have no interest, no desire or no need to see all citizens as equal.

He probably would. As conservative as he was De Valera was not a corrupt chancer like the recent F.F. crowd. I think Michael Collins would roll even more upon knowing that F.G. claim him as their founder. Collins said of Labour leader, James Conolly, "I would have followed him through hell...".http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Michael_Collins_%28film%29
Almost all major Irish political parties trace their lineage back to the revolutionary period of Irish history. Labour= James Connolly, Fianna Fail= Eamonn De Valera, Sinn Fein= likes to link themselves to all of them and Fine Gael=--well they claim Michael Collins but the truth is it's a lot closer to the Blue Shirt leader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts (the Irish version of the Nazi party) General Eoin O' Duffy(Irish version of Hitler/Mussolini/Franco)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_O%27Duffy, of the Army Comarades Association who later became Fine Gael and once proclaimed himself the "third most important man in Europe" after Adolf Hitler and fellow fascist Benito Mussolini.


People are so desperate for order after the corruption of F.F. and economic uncertainty that they're willing to vote in a semi facist political party, and sacrifice justice for order. It's a knee jerk reaction. Now when did that happen before.....?:rolleyes: (Godwin for me, yeah I know.)

Yes, Fine Gael will be elected and in two years max' people on boards will bitch and complain about it-and I'll quote this post...

L1011

Azure_sky wrote: »

but the truth is their lineage is a lot closer to the facist General Eoin O' Duffy.

Who, allegedly, had a relationship with Michael McLiammoir...

Bottle_of_Smoke

Azure_sky wrote: »

He probably would. As conservative as he was De Valera was not a corrupt chancer like the recent F.F. crowd. I think Michael Collins would roll even more upon knowing that F.G. claim him as their founder. Collins said of Labour leader, James Conolly, "I would have followed him through hell...".http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Michael_Collins_%28film%29
Almost all major Irish political parties trace their lineage back to the revolutionary period of Irish history. Labour= James Connolly, Fianna Fail= Eamonn De Valera, Sinn Fein= likes to link themselves to all of them and Fine Gael=--well they claim Michael Collins but the truth is it's a lot closer to the Blue Shirt leader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts (the Irish version of the Nazi party) General Eoin O' Duffy(Irish version of Hitler/Mussolini/Franco)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_O%27Duffy, of the Army Comarades Association who later became Fine Gael and once proclaimed himself the "third most important man in Europe" after Adolf Hitler and fellow fascist Benito Mussolini.

...

Its a bit ridiculous alright, eg Connolly would be spinning in his grave at the thoughts of modern Labour linking themselves to him. He was an out and out socialist -

If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.

Yes, friends, governments in capitalist society are but committees of the rich to manage the affairs of the capitalist class.

'Those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword' say the Scriptures, and it may well be that in the progress of events the working class of Ireland may be called upon to face the stern necessity of taking the sword (or rifle) against the capitalist class..."

Perhaps the Workers party or the Socialist party could claim to be in the same vein as Connolly, but social democrat parties like Labour/Sinn Fein . . Not a chance.

Think its a real shame the PDs got destroyed when they did. In these times we could do with a socially liberal right wing party who don't use history to justify themselves.

gmale

Azure_sky wrote: »

Fine Gael=--well they claim Michael Collins but the truth is it's a lot closer to the Blue Shirt leader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts (the Irish version of the Nazi party) General Eoin O' Duffy(Irish version of Hitler/Mussolini/Franco)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_O%27Duffy, of the Army Comarades Association who later became Fine Gael and once proclaimed himself the "third most important man in Europe" after Adolf Hitler and fellow fascist Benito Mussolini.


People are so desperate for order after the corruption of F.F. and economic uncertainty that they're willing to vote in a semi facist political party, and sacrifice justice for order. It's a knee jerk reaction. Now when did that happen before.....?:rolleyes: (Godwin for me, yeah I know.)

Yes, Fine Gael will be elected and in two years max' people on boards will bitch and complain about it-and I'll quote this post...

To the mods, sorry for going off topic here but I tried to let this one go, but it has been said on more than one ocassion and unless it is corrected, people will view it as fact!

To Azure_sky: In two years time I will tell you the same thing I am going to tell you now. The reasons why FG are labled Blue Shirts and Michael Collins is considered the founder of FG because...he signed the treaty with the UK, annexing the North to the UK in return for independence in the Republic, he viewed this as a stepping stone to achieving complete independence through peaceful means. Those that supported Collins at the time went on to establish the Pro-Treaty Cumman na Gaedheal party in 1923.

Those that did not support him and viewed him as a traitor for signing away the 6 counties eventually went on to establish Fianna Fail under the leadership of Dev. Up until that point, they were all members of Sinn Fein.

That is the old Civil War politics of Ireland, that was the reason people voted FF or FG up until this generation. Hopefully most of us have moved beyond the Civil War....the Good Friday Agreement which was passed by a referendum in the Republic resulted in the Republic no longer having a claim over the North. This effectively ended the historical differences between FG and FF. Interesting to note that it was FF that put the referendum to the people, it took them 50 years but eventually they merged their opinions with those of FG.

Interesting side note, Fine Gaels official title is Fine Gael - The United Ireland Party, Fianna Fail's official title is Fianna Fail - The Republican Party.

Eoin O Duffy, who had facist leanings, was the leader of Fine Gael for one year, Sept 1933 to Sept 1934. But to understand how he came to be in that position, you have to understand where the party was coming from. Sinn Fein viewd Collins and the Cumman na Gaedheal as traitors and as a threat. The IRA (the millitant wing of Sinn Fein) would regularly attack Cumman na Gaedheal meetings. In an attempt to defend the people at these meetings, Cumman na Gaedheal established a security force called the Army Commrades Association (the Blueshirts). It wasn't until 1933, 11 years after the war of independence and 11 years after Collins death did Duffy become leader of the Army Commrades Association. In that same year, the ACA and CnG merged to form Fine Gael and Duffy became its leader.

To understand why Duffy had facist leanings you have to look at Europe as a whole. A wave of extermist views was spreading across Europe, Facism and Communism were both very popular, and although both abhorent in Western Europe today, at the time, it was a common and understood philisophy. Also, Ireland, coming out of 2 bitter wars (independence and civil) was bound to go through a shift in ideology from left to right until coming to rest on the centre.

So to my point, Fine Gael claim Collins as their founder as he was leader of the Pro-Treaty Sinn Fein. Cumman na Gaedheal was established in 1923 by members of Pro-Treaty Sinn Fein WT Consgrave and Arthur Griffith. The Army Commrades Association (otherwise known as the Blueshirts) was established in 1932 (9 years later!) to protect CnG meetings from attack by the IRA, Thomas Higgins (not Duffy) was its first leader. In 1933 CnG and the ACA merged to form Fine Gael with Duffy as its leader and he lasted one year before resigning due to the party's embarrasment of him. He left the party and established his own party, the National Corporate Party. FG turned their back on Duffy and his political persuassion, this is proven by the fact that he left FG! The party was embarrased by him, he was too militant, too extreme.

Fine Gael could legitimately also claim WT Cosgrave and Arthur Griffith as well as Michael Collins as thier founder as they founded CnG in 1923.

Duffy was not a leading figure in the original CnG, he was not the first leader of the ACA and he only lasted one year as leader of FG before being kicked out. Its easy to label FG as right wing or facist, but its also lazy!

I can go further into history lessons for you if you like. But the point of this thread is not so you can spread false truths and misleading information about historical facts. Shall we continue this in the politics forum or the history forum?

Azure_sky

gmale wrote: »

he signed the treaty with the UK, annexing the North to the UK in return for independence in the Republic, he viewed this as a stepping stone to achieving complete independence through peaceful means.

He didn't have much of a choice and he was secretly arming the IRA in the North.

gmale wrote: »

Those that supported Collins at the time went on to establish the Pro-Treaty Cumman na Gaedheal party in 1923.

Those that did not support him and viewed him as a traitor for signing away the 6 counties eventually went on to establish Fianna Fail under the leadership of Dev. Up until that point, they were all members of Sinn Fein.



That is the old Civil War politics of Ireland, that was the reason people voted FF or FG up until this generation. Hopefully most of us have moved beyond the Civil War....the Good Friday Agreement which was passed by a referendum in the Republic resulted in the Republic no longer having a claim over the North.

Umm...I don't think I've ever denied any of this.

gmale wrote: »

Eoin O Duffy, who had facist leanings, was the leader of Fine Gael for one year, Sept 1933 to Sept 1934. But to understand how he came to be in that position, you have to understand where the party was coming from. Sinn Fein viewd Collins and the Cumman na Gaedheal as traitors and as a threat. The IRA (the millitant wing of Sinn Fein) would regularly attack Cumman na Gaedheal meetings. In an attempt to defend the people at these meetings, Cumman na Gaedheal established a security force called the Army Commrades Association (the Blueshirts). It wasn't until 1933, 11 years after the war of independence and 11 years after Collins death did Duffy become leader of the Army Commrades Association. In that same year, the ACA and CnG merged to form Fine Gael and Duffy became its leader.

Again, I never denied this. In fact I supplied links which affirm what you just said.

gmale wrote: »

To understand why Duffy had facist leanings you have to look at Europe as a whole. A wave of extermist views was spreading across Europe, Facism and Communism were both very popular, and although both abhorent in Western Europe today, at the time, it was a common and understood philisophy. Also, Ireland, coming out of 2 bitter wars (independence and civil) was bound to go through a shift in ideology from left to right until coming to rest on the centre.

Again, I'm aware of this and never said otherwise.

gmale wrote: »

So to my point, Fine Gael claim Collins as their founder as he was leader of the Pro-Treaty Sinn Fein. Cumman na Gaedheal was established in 1923 by members of Pro-Treaty Sinn Fein WT Consgrave and Arthur Griffith. The Army Commrades Association (otherwise known as the Blueshirts) was established in 1932 (9 years later!) to protect CnG meetings from attack by the IRA, Thomas Higgins (not Duffy) was its first leader. In 1933 CnG and the ACA merged to form Fine Gael with Duffy as its leader and he lasted one year before resigning due to the party's embarrasment of him. He left the party and established his own party, the National Corporate Party. FG turned their back on Duffy and his political persuassion, this is proven by the fact that he left FG! The party was embarrased by him, he was too militant, too extreme.

Just because O' Duffy, a man who idolised Hitler, proved to be too extreme for FG does not make F.G. a non right wing, centrist party. There's different degrees of conservatism.

gmale wrote: »

Duffy was not a leading figure in the original CnG, he was not the first leader of the ACA and he only lasted one year as leader of FG before being kicked out. Its easy to label FG as right wing or facist, but its also lazy!

One does not have to label FG as right wing, they are right wing by their own self definition. If a party that lables itself as a Christian democratic party is not right wing then what is?

gmale wrote: »

I can go further into history lessons for you if you like.

Your "history lessons" are just stuff every secondary school kid is well aware of. I never once denied any of the objective facts you stated. The fact is F.G. have more in common with the British Tories and even O' Duffy than Michael Collins. (Collins was not a social conservative. He even wrote a essay in school aguing that the church should be disestablished and was an agnotic at one point.) They tended to ape the Tories whenever they were in power. This was not what Collins, the man they claim as their founder, would have endorsed.

gmale wrote: »

But the point of this thread is not so you can spread false truths and misleading information about historical facts. Shall we continue this in the politics forum or the history forum?

History forum.

gmale

Azure_sky wrote: »

Umm...I don't think I've ever denied any of this.
...
Again, I never denied this. In fact I supplied links which affirm what you just said.
...
Again, I'm aware of this and never said otherwise.
...
Just because O' Duffy, a man who idolised Hitler, proved to be too extreme for FG does not make F.G. a non right wing, centrist party. There's different degrees of conservatism.
...
One does not have to label FG as right wing, they are right wing by their own self definition. If a party that lables itself as a Christian democratic party is not right wing then what is?
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Your "history lessons" are just stuff every secondary school kid is well aware of. I never once denied any of the objective facts you stated. The fact is F.G. have more in common with the British Tories than Michael Collins. They tended to ape the Tories whenever they were in power.
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History forum.

Would be more comfortable with it being in Politics as we are discussing past event impacting on current perceptions of the political spectrum. Mods, can you please move the last number of posts to Politics?

You never denied it, but you never stated it, resulting in sensationalist propaganda, Hitler, Nazi, Facist....

I completely agree with you on one thing in your post. There are different degrees of conservatism. But also there are different degrees on the political spectrum and there is no such thing as a "right wing, centrist party". Fine Gael define themselves as Centre Right.

The reason being, the are Christan Democrats. That is, they are Socially Conservative or Moderately Conservative in Social Issues but would be classified as Economically Progressive. The leading parties in most European Nations are classified as Christan Democrats, prime example is the party to which Chancellor Angela Merkel is leader of in Germany. Now can you honestly, and I mean honestly tell me that Angela Merkel and the Christan Democratic Union in Germany are right wing?

Fine Gael are members of the European Peoples Party, a Christan Democratic organisation, the largest political grouping in Europe. They have the largest number of members in the European Parliment. The heads of most states in the EU are members of the EPP and include Merkel, Sarkozy, Berlusconi. Barroso, the president, is also a member of the EPP. Can you say that these people are right wing?

Christan Democracy is not Right Wing, it is Centre Right!!!

Azure_sky

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Its a bit ridiculous alright, eg Connolly would be spinning in his grave at the thoughts of modern Labour linking themselves to him. He was an out and out socialist -







Perhaps the Workers party or the Socialist party could claim to be in the same vein as Connolly, but social democrat parties like Labour/Sinn Fein . . Not a chance.

That's because todays political parties have realised that the two extremes of the early 20th century have failed and only a moderate form of their respective ideologies are acceptable.

Azure_sky

gmale wrote: »

Would be more comfortable with it being in Politics as we are discussing past event impacting on current perceptions of the political spectrum. Mods, can you please move the last number of posts to Politics?

I started a thread in the history forum if you wish to partake in it. I'll post in depth either tonight or tomorrow.

gmale wrote: »

You never denied it, but you never stated it, resulting in sensationalist propaganda, Hitler, Nazi, Facist....

I indirectly did state it by providing links.

O' Duffy was leader of F.G. Fact.

O' Duffy compared himself to Hitler, Mussolini and Franco. Fact.

O' Duffy was a facist and pro Nazi. Fact.

gmale wrote: »

The reason being, the are Christan Democrats. That is, they are Socially Conservative or Moderately Conservative in Social Issues but would be classified as Economically Progressive. The leading parties in most European Nations are classified as Christan Democrats, prime example is the party to which Chancellor Angela Merkel is leader of in Germany. Now can you honestly, and I mean honestly tell me that Angela Merkel and the Christan Democratic Union in Germany are right wing?

Do you honestly think the average Catholic F.G. voter in the west coast is pro LGBT rights or pro choice? Economically progessive is a sweetened way of saying one is anti socialist. Some would say this is not progressive.

gmale

Azure_sky wrote: »

I indirectly did state it by providing links.

O' Duffy was leader of F.G. Fact.

O' Duffy compared himself to Hitler, Mussolini and Franco. Fact.

O' Duffy was a facist and pro Nazi. Fact.

Duffy left the party after one year of leadership to establish his own party, The National Corporate Party. He was forced out or willingly handed in his notice, but regardless, it was a very quick departure - Fact

Azure_sky wrote: »

Do you honestly think the average Catholic F.G. voter in the west coast is pro LGBT rights or pro choice? Economically progessive is a sweetened way of saying one is anti socialist. Some would say this is not progressive.

The average Catholic voter in the West may or may not be pro LGBT rights, but that is because they are Catholic or their religion may have nothing to do with it, simply their moral compass points in a different direction. it has absolutely nothing to do with whether they vote for FG, FF or Lab. Similarly, Protestants for for FG, FF and Lab

It is Christan Democracy not Catholic Democracy. You can be gay and Catholic, you can be gay and athetist, you can be gay and Christan and atheist!

Saying that someone is Economically Progressive does not mean that they are Anti Socialist...they are not mutually exclusive...hence the middle ground or Central on the spectrum.