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Mortgage Arrears Problem in Ireland.
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Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »How about this. The government (aka the taxpayer) assists those in arrears. In return, the government (aka the taxpayer) takes part ownership of the dwelling.
For example, if a house is worth €200,000 and the government (aka the taxpayer) helps pay off €10,000 of the debt, the government (aka the taxpayer) owns 5% of the property. When the family get back on their feet, they can either pay back the money, or lose 5% of the sale value of the house.
This is perfectly reasonable. The other option seems to be people having their assets paid off for no reason, which is of course a ludicrous proposition.
Remember now, comparisons with the health service, child allowance are disingenuous, given the keyword asset.
Fly, my pretties. Fly.
how about reformed bankruptcy and firesales0 -
Probably a good thing - certainly bankruptcy reform (cut it to 5 years, 12 is crazy) - but every person who goes bust adds their mortgage default to the taxpayers' burden.Deleted User wrote: »how about reformed bankruptcy and firesales0 -
Wrong! If everybody had planned to be able to survive a financial upset we wouldn't have had a housing bubble in the first place. We wouldn't have had people taking out 100% mortgages, taking out interest only mortgages, taking out mortgages that were crazy multiples of their salary, borrowing from the credit union to fund a deposit, taking out top up loans to fund frivilous luxuries etc. And, most importantly, we wouldn't have hundreds of thousands of people struggling to pay mortgages that they should have known were to big before they even took them out. Instead we would have a population securely in homes funded by realistic manageable mortgages.You know if everyone planned only for the worst then it's possible that very few would have homes.0 -
Monty Burnz wrote: »Probably a good thing - certainly bankruptcy reform (cut it to 5 years, 12 is crazy) - but every person who goes bust adds their mortgage default to the taxpayers' burden.
yeah so we should burn the bondholders and think real hard about whether we need to continue to rescue ALL the banks........ we dont need as many banks as back in the boom time
its a choice between people and the banks whether its arrears or emigration0 -
I think it's not so much a question of begrudging your neighbour as it of begrudging someone who decided they were too good to be your neighbour. The person earning the same money as you but, while you sensibly opted to rent a sensible three bed semi-d in an OK area, he recklessly took out a 40 year mortgage at 7 times earnings to buy a four bed detached house in a 'nicer' area. And now he want you to pay to keep him in his fancy house while you're still stuck in your sensible 3 bed semi.In principal I would say that most people (decent people anyway), would not begrudge their neighbour. So the issue seems to be in relation to begrudging ones neighbour once ones own pocket is affected.0 -
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I cannot believe the anger here.
We bought in 2004, just pre-exorbitant-prices era. We have both worked and paid taxes for 15+ years. We wanted a standard house in a standard area to bring up our one child, a family home. We didn't want to make money, didn't buy to sell, expected to live in it until we paid off the mortgage as we had already paid dead rent money to landlords for over 10 years. We didn't exaggerate our salaries, we didn't lie to get our mortgage in early 2004. We didn't join the Section 23 "oooh goodie, a second house I can buy and rent and make lots of extra money" investors brigade.
We haven't lived the "celtic tiger", own one car, a holiday if we're lucky, didn't overspend, etc.
We did expect to cover our mortgage, planned it in case one or both of us lost our jobs, that we could expect to find one job between us, as nobody in Ireland expected the complete and utter disaster that Bertie Ahern, Charlie McCreevy (let's not forget Charlie), Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowen of Fianna Fail and the lovely legacy they have left us. Let's not forget who created the property bubble and who has walked away/is walking away with cosy big wads of cash.
I haven't worked for over a year and my husband who has worked for nearly 30 years (probably longer than some of your ages on this forum) his business has gone to sh1te, thanks to overpriced rates, completely ridiculous rents, nobody buying and a government et al who kept advising its country people again and again there would be a soft landing. If we had been advised correctly, we would not find ourselves in this position.
What did you want people to do? Never buy a house "in case" this happened? Nobody, not your overpaid Banking Regulator, ESRI, Central Bank did their jobs well.
With regard to renting, if someone cannot afford to pay their mortgage and they were to lose their house, how do you think they will pay the rent? Yes, you guessed it. The Social welfare. Either way, the tax payer pays.
Having said that, I would get E100s out of renting from the Social Welfare system than what I presently get from SW paying a mortgage. I get a big fat E0. You're right, maybe it is time to go back to renting. Then the lender can hold on to a house they can't sell.0 -
I cannot believe the anger here.
We bought in 2004, just pre-exorbitant-prices era. We have both worked and paid taxes for 15+ years. We wanted a standard house in a standard area to bring up our one child, a family home. We didn't want to make money, didn't buy to sell, expected to live in it until we paid off the mortgage as we had already paid dead rent money to landlords for over 10 years. We didn't exaggerate our salaries, we didn't lie to get our mortgage in early 2004. We didn't join the Section 23 "oooh goodie, a second house I can buy and rent and make lots of extra money" investors brigade.
We haven't lived the "celtic tiger", own one car, a holiday if we're lucky, didn't overspend, etc.
We did expect to cover our mortgage, planned it in case one or both of us lost our jobs, that we could expect to find one job between us, as nobody in Ireland expected the complete and utter disaster that Bertie Ahern, Charlie McCreevy (let's not forget Charlie), Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowen of Fianna Fail and the lovely legacy they have left us. Let's not forget who created the property bubble and who has walked away/is walking away with cosy big wads of cash.
I haven't worked for over a year and my husband who has worked for nearly 30 years (probably longer than some of your ages on this forum) his business has gone to sh1te, thanks to overpriced rates, completely ridiculous rents, nobody buying and a government et al who kept advising its country people again and again there would be a soft landing. If we had been advised correctly, we would not find ourselves in this position.
What did you want people to do? Never buy a house "in case" this happened? Nobody, not your overpaid Banking Regulator, ESRI, Central Bank did their jobs well.
With regard to renting, if someone cannot afford to pay their mortgage and they were to lose their house, how do you think they will pay the rent? Yes, you guessed it. The Social welfare. Either way, the tax payer pays.
Having said that, I would get E100s out of renting from the Social Welfare system than what I presently get from SW paying a mortgage. I get a big fat E0. You're right, maybe it is time to go back to renting. Then the lender can hold on to a house they can't sell.
78% of Swiss people pay 'dead money' (yeah, but you are not tied to a mortgage) instead of buying a house, yet that country is one of the richest in the world.
Strange...0 -
Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »78% of Swiss people pay 'dead money' (yeah, but you are not tied to a mortgage) instead of buying a house, yet that country is one of the richest in the world.
Strange...
That's not relevant to Ireland and its current situation. Perhaps you should do a little research into Ireland and its ties to its land ownership. I'm sure you could say the same about the Netherlands. I don't live in the Netherlands either.
Ireland was also one of the fastest growing economies in the world. It's amazing how things can turnaround. I could argue the case against why a country and its dubious banking history is so rich, but it would be in the wrong forum.0 -
I cannot believe the anger here.
We bought in 2004, just pre-exorbitant-prices era. We have both worked and paid taxes for 15+ years. We wanted a standard house in a standard area to bring up our one child, a family home. We didn't want to make money, didn't buy to sell, expected to live in it until we paid off the mortgage as we had already paid dead rent money to landlords for over 10 years. We didn't exaggerate our salaries, we didn't lie to get our mortgage in early 2004. We didn't join the Section 23 "oooh goodie, a second house I can buy and rent and make lots of extra money" investors brigade.
We haven't lived the "celtic tiger", own one car, a holiday if we're lucky, didn't overspend, etc.
We did expect to cover our mortgage, planned it in case one or both of us lost our jobs, that we could expect to find one job between us, as nobody in Ireland expected the complete and utter disaster that Bertie Ahern, Charlie McCreevy (let's not forget Charlie), Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowen of Fianna Fail and the lovely legacy they have left us. Let's not forget who created the property bubble and who has walked away/is walking away with cosy big wads of cash.
I haven't worked for over a year and my husband who has worked for nearly 30 years (probably longer than some of your ages on this forum) his business has gone to sh1te, thanks to overpriced rates, completely ridiculous rents, nobody buying and a government et al who kept advising its country people again and again there would be a soft landing. If we had been advised correctly, we would not find ourselves in this position.
What did you want people to do? Never buy a house "in case" this happened? Nobody, not your overpaid Banking Regulator, ESRI, Central Bank did their jobs well.
With regard to renting, if someone cannot afford to pay their mortgage and they were to lose their house, how do you think they will pay the rent? Yes, you guessed it. The Social welfare. Either way, the tax payer pays.
Having said that, I would get E100s out of renting from the Social Welfare system than what I presently get from SW paying a mortgage. I get a big fat E0. You're right, maybe it is time to go back to renting. Then the lender can hold on to a house they can't sell.
Don't be all suprised!
You and I are typical of the type of sensible people who acted "In hindsight" sensibly and responsibly, aspiring "god forbid" to purchase a HOME. I took am shocked and appalled at the astonishing naivety coming across on this thread and i might add on others. I suspect this angry posts are coming from those who have a cosy life, perhaps jobs for life or have not ever had to face any hardship in their lives. You raise an interesting point about SW that perhaps these so called experts may not quite grasp. As a mortgage holder in Ireland there is essentially only one temporary benefit available and that is mortgage interest relief which in itself covers a fraction of the Interest portion of a mortgage payment and of course thats if you succeed in what is an astonishingly bureaucratic process, it should also be pointed out that essentially most if not all mortgage taken out post 2007 would probably not qualify.
On the other hand if your renting, lost your Job etc, there are a raft of benefits available, no doubt availed of by the begrudgers of mortgage holders on this thread. I took part in an extensive piece in the Sunday indo last weekend which interviewed a cross section of society affected by the mortgage crisis and unemployment, not one of the contributors, including myself expected handouts but some legislation to reign in banks that we have essentially bailed out.Is maith an scáthán súil charad.
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I took part in an extensive piece in the Sunday indo last weekend which interviewed a cross section of society affected by the mortgage crisis and unemployment, not one of the contributors, including myself expected handouts but some legislation to reign in banks that we have essentially bailed out.
I have to say this looks like it is becoming the "public v private sector" anger of last year. Unnecessary arguments getting nowhere. Nobody I know either having mortgage problems (none of them in negative equity I might add) wants a handout, they ultimately don't want to get kicked out of their homes and end up on the streets, and if it means many more years paying off the mortgage, IO mortgages or an option for part mortgage payment/part rental by way of selling off part of the house to cover, I don't know.
I hope the people on this forum so angry with people who bought over the last few years were even more angry with the disgraceful Government who dropped us all in this situation, who bailed the banks out and were shouting louder then than they are here.0 -
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I'm sorry, that's just not true. If, after food and whatever essentials, you have 1k left per month, and your mortgage is 2k, then you can't pay your mortgage. But you can rent a place for 1k - so the taxpayer isn't paying.With regard to renting, if someone cannot afford to pay their mortgage and they were to lose their house, how do you think they will pay the rent? Yes, you guessed it. The Social welfare. Either way, the tax payer pays.
Having said that, I sincerely hope things work out for your family.0 -
Carm, it's a bit late now to direct you there but I have been a long-time reader of and less long-time contributor to the Property Pin. To say that we were incandescent with rage at the bank bailout doesn't begin to describe it. Protests were organised, at the time, but only a few dozen people turned up. Until it started hitting people in the pockets, they didn't arse themselves to find out what was going on, in spite of the Property Pin and others doing their best to get people to take notice. By the time the general public were paying attention, the damage was already long done.I hope the people on this forum so angry with people who bought over the last few years were even more angry with the disgraceful Government who dropped us all in this situation, who bailed the banks out and were shouting louder then than they are here.0 -
Monty Burnz wrote: »I'm sorry, that's just not true. If, after food and whatever essentials, you have 1k left per month, and your mortgage is 2k, then you can't pay your mortgage. But you can rent a place for 1k - so the taxpayer isn't paying.
Having said that, I sincerely hope things work out for your family.
Thanks. Although it looks like another emigrating family.
My mortgage is just over E1k a month, the SW pays me E24 a week. You do the maths. If I rented, I would be entitled to a hell of ALOT more and the rent would be around the same E1k pm. The social welfare (or HSE) pays rent allowance (or relief?) Where do you think that money comes from?0 -
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Monty Burnz wrote: »Carm, it's a bit late now to direct you there but I have been a long-time reader of and less long-time contributor to the Property Pin. To say that we were incandescent with rage at the bank bailout doesn't begin to describe it. Protests were organised, at the time, but only a few dozen people turned up. Until it started hitting people in the pockets, they didn't arse themselves to find out what was going on, in spite of the Property Pin and others doing their best to get people to take notice. By the time the general public were paying attention, the damage was already long done.
I was one of those people with you. I was extremely angry at the time. It was hitting me in the pocket at the time, due to redundancy, but I had savings and it's hitting me now to a point of emigration. You're one but I would say not all.0 -
Maybe we have a "cosy" life because we saved ourselves the odd half a million quid by not recklessly throwing away our entire lifetimes earnings into the biggest and most obvious property bubble in the world? Maybe we face less "hardship" than you because we chose to be prudent and careful with our hard earned money?I suspect this angry posts are coming from those who have a cosy life, perhaps jobs for life or have not ever had to face any hardship in their lives.
How ironic to be called "the privileged" now after the fact, when we were looked down at and sneered at as some kind of "paupers in our rented flats" for not buying into the myth of the bubble while the madness was going on.
Id rather emigrate than have my taxes go to such a bailout.0 -
Id rather emigrate than have my taxes go to such a bailout.
I was one of those "paupers" in the rental market for many years, I am now one of those terrible mortage holders. Not a reckless one - or so I thought. But my question - you wouldn't want to emigrate when a Government who sold out the average Irish person and their children and children's entire future to German and French bankers and is asking you to pay more in tax but you'd emigrate based on the fact your average family bought in a property bubble that the same Government were advising "buy" by all means??
Interesting how this is turning around.
And I quote: RTE News, April 2006: "The Taoiseach has said he does not see a great problem with the levels of borrowing to buy property. Mr Ahern said there had been predictions of a huge downturn in 2005. He added the bad advice given by so many resulted in some people making mistakes when they should have bought property last year. "0 -
I will give my No.1 vote to any political party who will bring in legislation to kick the citizens of Ireland who are in arrears with their mortgages through no fault of their own out of their homes, and into ****ty council houses. The ****ty ones, as opposed to the good ones.citizenofeire wrote: »I will give my No.1 vote to any political party who will bring in legislation to help the vast amount of citizens of Ireland who are in arrears with their mortgages through no fault of their own.
Why? Because it's their fault that the house prices are so high. Esp the ones you went to sub-prime lenders. You only goto a sub-prime lender if you can't get a mortgage from a bank. And if you can't pay for the mortgage from the bank, there's no way in hell you'll be able to pay the one from the sub-prime lender.0 -
According to various tax calculators, I am about 40-100 euro a year worse off this year than the last tax year. But yes, I would emigrate if the first bailout became a financial issue for me. Luckily, not being tied to a property in negative equity leaves me with that option. Which funnily enough was yet another factor in deciding not to buy into the property bubble.I was one of those "paupers" in the rental market for many years, I am now one of those terrible mortage holders. Not a reckless one - or so I thought. But my question - you wouldn't want to emigrate when a Government who sold out the average Irish person and their children and children's entire future to German and French bankers and is asking you to pay more in tax but you'd emigrate based on the fact your average family bought in a property bubble that the same Government were advising "buy" by all means??0 -
According to various tax calculators, I am about 40-100 euro a year worse off this year than the last tax year. But yes, I would emigrate if the first bailout became a financial issue for me. Luckily, not being tied to a property in negative equity leaves me with that option. Which funnily enough was yet another factor in deciding not to buy into the property bubble.
Ah, that's "Year 1" for your cut, let's see how the next few years pan out for you, unless of course you believe everything FF told you this time around. Maybe some who bought late into the "bubble" actually listened to what their Government was advising them about buying property.
You live and learn.0 -
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You seem confused. Those of us who never believed anything FF told us dont need a bailout, can stand on our own two feet and are not doomed to a life of crippling debt.Ah, that's "Year 1" for your cut, let's see how the next few years pan out for you, unless of course you believe everything FF told you this time around. Maybe some who bought late into the "bubble" actually listened to what their Government was advising them about buying property.
Yes, lets see how the next few years pan out. Worse come to the worst, Ill move to the south of France and we'll continue the argument from there.
Maybe Ill buy a house.0 -
Maybe we have a "cosy" life because we saved ourselves the odd half a million quid by not recklessly throwing away our entire lifetimes earnings into the biggest and most obvious property bubble in the world? Maybe we face less "hardship" than you because we chose to be prudent and careful with our hard earned money?
How ironic to be called "the privileged" now after the fact, when we were looked down at and sneered at as some kind of "paupers in our rented flats" for not buying into the myth of the bubble while the madness was going on.
Id rather emigrate than have my taxes go to such a bailout.
predictable response, i never used the word privilege and indeed i commend those who have full time employment, you just can't get the fact and in spite of what you think I and many, many others did not invest in this so called property bubble, we invested in homes and i might add at a time when prices were reasonable and certainly not these absurd 100% mortgages, in fact i have a minuscule mortgage remaining however because of circumstances beyond my control (redundancy) i like many others are struggling. I certainly never advocated a bail out or expect one, just a mechanism to allow more time through an extension or whatever. My issue is the Banks and their new approach, namely increasing interest rates massively and on money i borrowed almost ten years ago.Is maith an scáthán súil charad.
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These mechanism already exist via your lender. Mortgage holders have already been given a years grace to get their houses in order. What more do you want? Anything more is a bailout using taxpayers money.I certainly never advocated a bail out or expect one, just a mechanism to allow more time through an extension or whatever.
Are you serious? Thats how mortgages work. Is this news to you?My issue is the Banks and their new approach, namely increasing interest rates massively and on money i borrowed almost ten years ago.0 -
I cannot believe the anger here.
We bought in 2004, just pre-exorbitant-prices era. We have both worked and paid taxes for 15+ years. We wanted a standard house in a standard area to bring up our one child, a family home. We didn't want to make money, didn't buy to sell, expected to live in it until we paid off the mortgage as we had already paid dead rent money to landlords for over 10 years. We didn't exaggerate our salaries, we didn't lie to get our mortgage in early 2004. We didn't join the Section 23 "oooh goodie, a second house I can buy and rent and make lots of extra money" investors brigade.
We haven't lived the "celtic tiger", own one car, a holiday if we're lucky, didn't overspend, etc.
We did expect to cover our mortgage, planned it in case one or both of us lost our jobs, that we could expect to find one job between us, as nobody in Ireland expected the complete and utter disaster that Bertie Ahern, Charlie McCreevy (let's not forget Charlie), Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowen of Fianna Fail and the lovely legacy they have left us. Let's not forget who created the property bubble and who has walked away/is walking away with cosy big wads of cash.
I haven't worked for over a year and my husband who has worked for nearly 30 years (probably longer than some of your ages on this forum) his business has gone to sh1te, thanks to overpriced rates, completely ridiculous rents, nobody buying and a government et al who kept advising its country people again and again there would be a soft landing. If we had been advised correctly, we would not find ourselves in this position.
What did you want people to do? Never buy a house "in case" this happened? Nobody, not your overpaid Banking Regulator, ESRI, Central Bank did their jobs well.
With regard to renting, if someone cannot afford to pay their mortgage and they were to lose their house, how do you think they will pay the rent? Yes, you guessed it. The Social welfare. Either way, the tax payer pays.
Having said that, I would get E100s out of renting from the Social Welfare system than what I presently get from SW paying a mortgage. I get a big fat E0. You're right, maybe it is time to go back to renting. Then the lender can hold on to a house they can't sell.
look if you cannot afford your house, give it up - its that simple. Do you expect someone to come along and pay for your house for you? Get out of it and go renting. Let someone else have a chance of buying it at a reasonable price. Remember for everyone leaving a house they cannot afford there will people waiting to buy - people who saved their money when everyone else was forking out over the odds. If you can't afford it - sell it to someone who can.0 -
That's not relevant to Ireland and its current situation. Perhaps you should do a little research into Ireland and its ties to its land ownership. I'm sure you could say the same about the Netherlands. I don't live in the Netherlands either.
Ireland was also one of the fastest growing economies in the world. It's amazing how things can turnaround. I could argue the case against why a country and its dubious banking history is so rich, but it would be in the wrong forum.
have you not realised yet that this was all conconted - a myth - a pretence. Did you buy your house on this lie.
are people so naive that they would believe some nonsense from the mouth of a gobsheen and go against the actual clues right in front of them. There are people that never believed in the celtic tiger - why - because that was a myth too. People need to start thinking for themselves again and not follow the words of a crowd of idiots that ran us into the ground. Were people too lazy to think for themselves.0 -
I was one of those "paupers" in the rental market for many years, I am now one of those terrible mortage holders. Not a reckless one - or so I thought. But my question - you wouldn't want to emigrate when a Government who sold out the average Irish person and their children and children's entire future to German and French bankers and is asking you to pay more in tax but you'd emigrate based on the fact your average family bought in a property bubble that the same Government were advising "buy" by all means??
Interesting how this is turning around.
And I quote: RTE News, April 2006: "The Taoiseach has said he does not see a great problem with the levels of borrowing to buy property. Mr Ahern said there had been predictions of a huge downturn in 2005. He added the bad advice given by so many resulted in some people making mistakes when they should have bought property last year. "
as I thought - never mind thinking for yourself - just go along with whatever idiot in govt is doing at the time.0 -
I have to say this looks like it is becoming the "public v private sector" anger of last year. Unnecessary arguments getting nowhere. Nobody I know either having mortgage problems (none of them in negative equity I might add) wants a handout, they ultimately don't want to get kicked out of their homes and end up on the streets, and if it means many more years paying off the mortgage, IO mortgages or an option for part mortgage payment/part rental by way of selling off part of the house to cover, I don't know.
I hope the people on this forum so angry with people who bought over the last few years were even more angry with the disgraceful Government who dropped us all in this situation, who bailed the banks out and were shouting louder then than they are here.
It's not like the PS argument. I will break this argument down as clearly as possible:
I don't want you taking my money.
Cheers.0 -
dolphin city wrote: »have you not realised yet that this was all conconted - a myth - a pretence. Did you buy your house on this lie.
are people so naive that they would believe some nonsense from the mouth of a gobsheen and go against the actual clues right in front of them. There are people that never believed in the celtic tiger - why - because that was a myth too. People need to start thinking for themselves again and not follow the words of a crowd of idiots that ran us into the ground. Were people too lazy to think for themselves.
It wasn't all a myth. Just felt I should inform you.0 -
BluePlanet wrote: »The difference is that none of those things you've listed, is the same thing as using taxpayers money to help YOU retain ownership of an asset.
Really a line of credit coming in ala the social, unmarried mothers etc would be seen in the same esteem as an asset it is an income.....So why should I bother with any of it...It should be all or nothing..and its not to retain an asset. I garentee you anyone in neg equity would jump at the chance to hand the keys back to the bank and walk away..So your argument doesnt hold water0 -
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Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »It wasn't all a myth. Just felt I should inform you.
it was - it was based on conconctions. Some people never even knew there was a so called celtic tiger in Ireland. Because there wasn't - it was a case of
the emperor's new clothes. Nothing more, nothing less.0
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