Mortgage Arrears Problem in Ireland.

citizenofeire

I will give my No.1 vote to any political party who will bring in legislation to help the vast amount of citizens of Ireland who are in arrears with their mortgages through no fault of their own.

In Feb. 2010 a Special Group was set up by the Government to provide some solutions to this very huge problem in Ireland. I would imagine these people were paid very well for their services.

At the end of 2010 the Group came up with a number of recommendations, which quite frankly, were of little help to those facing the threat of re-possession.

With mortgage interest rates rising there will be many more Irish people falling into mortgage arrears.

I am calling on all candidates, who are seeking election, to make the mortgage arrears problem in this country one of your top priorities.

If there is any support out there for my very strong feelings on this problem, please let me know.

Einhard

citizenofeire wrote: »

I will give my No.1 vote to any political party who will bring in legislation to help the vast amount of citizens of Ireland who are in arrears with their mortgages through no fault of their own.

Oh, you mean those people whom the banks forced at gun point to take out huge mortgages on property that was clearly overvalued?!

I'll vote for anyone who proposes to wipe out my Credit Card debt incurred on foreign holidays through no fault of my own...

Seriously, I have all the sympathy in the world for those in arrears, and wouldn't have a major problem with some form of assistance, but the idea that they bear absolutely no responsibility for their own situation is absurd. Nobody forced them to purchase their houses, and it was pretty clear back in 2006 that the housing market was overheating. There was no shortage of voices warning people. If the government are to blame for not heeding those voices, then the people who did likewise are likewise responsibile.

citizenofeire

citizenofeire wrote: »

I will give my No.1 vote to any political party who will bring in legislation to help the vast amount of citizens of Ireland who are in arrears with their mortgages

how about bankruptcy law reform so they can go bankrupt and hand back the keys? 3 - 5 years and they come out of bankruptcy......?

Seems the fairest instead of throwing taxpayers money at overinflated mortgages.....plus it allows firesales which is great for the economy.

The only problem is the banks and the guarantee

Bottle_of_Smoke

Would also like to take issue with ''through no fault of their own"

How do you define this?

citizenofeire

It must feel great to be so smug.

You must be the lucky ones who still have jobs in Ireland.

The majority of people who are in arrears with their mortgage, are those who have lost their jobs or their business.

To generalise this situation is very easy.

Try being in the shoes of those who have lost everything.

sollar

Deleted User wrote: »

how about bankruptcy law reform so they can go bankrupt and hand back the keys? 3 - 5 years and they come out of bankruptcy......?

This is where the solution lies imo. There is no point in giving a few extra euros relief to someone in arrears who paid 450K for a house that is now worth 150K.

People need a way out of this mess. The country is just going to have to accept that this problem is not going to go away.

Einhard

citizenofeire wrote: »

It must feel great to be so smug.

You must be the lucky ones who still have jobs in Ireland.

The majority of people who are in arrears with their mortgage, are those who have lost their jobs or their business.

To generalise this situation is very easy.

Try being in the shoes of those who have lost everything.

I'm not being smug. How could you take what I stated as being smug? Do you have this attitude to everyone who doesn't slavishly agree with you?

As I said, I've no major problem with some assistance, but I draw the line at people trying to absolve themselves of ALL responsibility for the situations they placed themselves in.

Ps: I don't have a job. Neither though do I have a house. I couldn't afford one back in 2006, so I didn't buy one.

big b

and what about those who've lived on beans on toast, sat in a cold house to save heating oil etc etc to ensure that they payed for the roof over their head?

you can't simply bail out everyone in arrears, it's entirely unfair to those who've scrimped & scraped to get their monthly payment together.
And I say that with some sympathy to those who have done the above & still failed to meet their obligations.

Dannyboy83

Suppose for a second that we did bring in some scheme to help these people with their burden.
Than banks have no money so obviously the difference has to be made up by the taxpayer.

How do we ensure that the taxpayer who was sensible and didn't overextend themselves is not expected to carry the burden of the those who did overextend themselves?

I can think of no surer way to stoke a mass wave of emigration, than to tell those who don't own houses and are probably waiting for the opportunity, that they will be taxed to help pay the mortgages of those who do

citizenofeire

I am not asking to be bailed out, nor am I asking to have my mortgage paid off for me.

I am asking for leglisation to be introduced to stop re-possession of the homes of those who are making an effort to pay what they can from their reduced income.

It seems to be the general opinion that those in arrears are speculators or developers.

Quite the contrary. The majority are ordinary people who purchased their family home at the wrong time.



T

Yitzhak Rabin

citizenofeire wrote: »

I am not asking to be bailed out, nor am I asking to have my mortgage paid off for me.

I am asking for leglisation to be introduced to stop re-possession of the homes of those who are making an effort to pay what they can from their reduced income.

It seems to be the general opinion that those in arrears are speculators or developers.

Quite the contrary. The majority are ordinary people who purchased their family home at the wrong time.



T

Currently most banks do work out payment schedules with those who lost their jobs. If it gets to the point where the person can't pay back more than a miniscule amount then what options are left? The bank has to repossess the home. As it stands the banks are public entities i.e owned by the taxpayer. Its not fair to ask your fellow citizens to pay for your mortgage because you find yourself unable to pay it.

Thats the very opposite of fair.

More realistic bankruptcy legislation is something I would be in favour of.

edit: Fine Gael (much to my disappointment) is proposing to bring in a more generous mortgage interest relief scheme for those who bought during the boom.

Dempo1

citizenofeire wrote: »

It must feel great to be so smug.

You must be the lucky ones who still have jobs in Ireland.

The majority of people who are in arrears with their mortgage, are those who have lost their jobs or their business.

To generalise this situation is very easy.

Try being in the shoes of those who have lost everything.

Yes, agreed whole heartedly

I can predict this thread to descend in complete nonsense. The OP's point is a legitimate one, whether or not some people dislike the notion of support mechanism's or some legislation something is going to have to be done. Not withstanding the fact the banks are in no position to survive mass default (although their recent interest rate hikes suggest they are living in cuckoo land), the court system will collapse and the irony of it all, guess what, the government and us the tax payers will end up contributing anyway whether it be through social housing, rent allowances etc etc.

Make no mistake to anyone who is arrogant enough to suggest all is Rosy in the garden, the mortgage crisis is about to implode and incidentally not just those in so called negative equity, all sections of society are clearly affected even those who took out sensible mortgage pre Celtic tiger madness!

Yitzhak Rabin

Dempo1 wrote: »

Yes, agreed whole heartedly

I can predict this thread to descend in complete nonsense. The OP's point is a legitimate one, whether or not some people dislike the notion of support mechanism's or some legislation something is going to have to be done. Not withstanding the fact the banks are in no position to survive mass default (although their recent interest rate hikes suggest they are living in cuckoo land), the court system will collapse and the irony of it all, guess what, the government and us the tax payers will end up contributing anyway whether it be through social housing, rent allowances etc etc.

Make no mistake to anyone who is arrogant enough to suggest all is Rosy in the garden, the mortgage crisis is about to implode and incidentally not just those in so called negative equity, all sections of society are clearly affected even those who took out sensible mortgage pre Celtic tiger madness!

Exactly, and the reason we are in this mess is very few people showed prudence while racking up their debts. There is too little personal responsibility in this state and everyone wants to blame everyone else and everyone wants someone else to pay their way. The cards should have been left to fall where they lie. Government intervention in the banking and personal mortgage debt is immoral.

EricPraline

citizenofeire wrote: »

I will give my No.1 vote to any political party who will bring in legislation to help the vast amount of citizens of Ireland who are in arrears with their mortgages through no fault of their own.

The issue is that this kind of legislation will undoubtedly have a significant monetary cost, either directly if we're talking about tax breaks or indirectly through further capital requirements of the banks if loans are no longer serviced or are written down. Who are you suggesting will provide this funding? Other people who are also barely managing to pay a mortgage or rent?

Tax increases and cuts are inevitable to meet our existing funding shortfall and service our national debt. OP I'm genuinely wondering how you think this kind of legislation can be financed?

the groutch

there's a point tho where it's obvious a person just can't pay their mortgage and banks can't wait around forever in the hope they'll get a new job

Duke Leonal Felmet

I presume this bailout of those in arrears will come out of my pocket, as usual? This in spite of the fact that I have no mortgage and no credit cards. I behave prudently, yet I get punished because of peoples greed.

What a country.

sollar

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I presume this bailout of those in arrears will come out of my pocket, as usual? This in spite of the fact that I have no mortgage and no credit cards. I behave prudently, yet I get punished because of peoples greed.

What a country.

Consider it a form of welfare. People make bad decisions in life and sometimes need help.

Duke Leonal Felmet

sollar wrote: »

Consider it a form of welfare. People make bad decisions in life and sometimes need help.

Great. So people make innumerable stupid decisions and those who play life carefully suffer. Sorry, you are trying to compare this to real welfare, where people are born into hardship and require some assistance. This is nothing of the sort, and it is highly disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise. You are fooling no one but yourself with that line.

In this world of yours, if I went out and bought a house that I could clearly never afford and then fell into arrears, I should be able to take other peoples money to solve problems that I created for myself. Money from people who acted prudently and had nothing to do with my decisions.

Insanity. Your sense of fairness is completely lopsided.

Dempo1

yekahS wrote: »

Exactly, and the reason we are in this mess is very few people showed prudence while racking up their debts. There is too little personal responsibility in this state and everyone wants to blame everyone else and everyone wants someone else to pay their way. The cards should have been left to fall where they lie. Government intervention in the banking and personal mortgage debt is immoral.

Here we go, the same old mantra. When are people going to face up to the fact that not all the citizens who currently find themselves in a terrible place right now acted irresponsibly. It does not take a genius to work out how many newly unemployed there are out there, much of it occurring at the tail end of the Septic Tiger. I know countless couples who borrowed sensibly, were in gainful employment and now find themselves on the scrap heap. I am certainly not advocating a blanket bail out and yes there are those who acted foolishly namely 100% mortgages etc (which the banks hold some responsibility for absurd lending practices) but at the same time there as many responsible borrowers with mortgages a decade or more in difficulty. I don't think it would take to much to separate unsustainable mortgages from those that could and should be restructured.

As for the banks, I can confirm from experience they do assist in some ways but pretty much in the area of Interest only payments which form a higher percentage of the over all monthly payment and even this offer is of little consequence to those struggling.

I do not expect the state to bail anyone out, however i do expect our government through us the taxpayer and indeed shareholders to reign in banks now increasing interest rates massively which ultimately will and is making the crisis worse. I also believe current legislation while on paper looks wonderful, it is incredibly difficult for mortgage holders to make head nor tail of what options are open to them.

As an aside, there is another disturbing development in the Debt crisis. District Courts are packed to the gills on the civil lists hearing 1000's of personal debt cases, such is the crisis District Judges in some areas are no longer granting installment orders against anyone currently on Social welfare, this leaves creditors a final option, Judgment mortgages against debtors who still have property. This further complicates any desire of banks to assist with mortgage maintenance or restructuring, its got so bad, even debt collection firms are going into receivership. Beneath the surface there really is a personal debt volcano waiting to erupt, something, anything is going to have to be done.

Dob74

Einhard wrote: »

I'm not being smug. How could you take what I stated as being smug? Do you have this attitude to everyone who doesn't slavishly agree with you?

As I said, I've no major problem with some assistance, but I draw the line at people trying to absolve themselves of ALL responsibility for the situations they placed themselves in.

Ps: I don't have a job. Neither though do I have a house. I couldn't afford one back in 2006, so I didn't buy one.

So being spiteful towards people who did will help.
The taxpayer has bailed out the lenders.
Just change the law so no one has to pay back more than the house is worth.
That would end banks driving the price of houses.

sollar

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Great. So people make innumerable stupid decisions and those who play life carefully suffer. Sorry, you are trying to compare this to real welfare, where people are born into hardship and require some assistance. This is nothing of the sort, and it is highly disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise. You are fooling no one but yourself with that line.

In this world of yours, if I went out and bought a house that I could clearly never afford and then fell into arrears, I should be able to take other peoples money to solve problems that I created for myself. Money from people who acted prudently and had nothing to do with my decisions.

Insanity. Your sense of fairness is completely lopsided.

This is life, people make all sorts of bad decisions and the state picks up the tab in some way or another. It happens all the time. Many people drawing money from the welfare system or the health system do so because of bad decisions they have made in life.

Yitzhak Rabin

Dob74 wrote: »

[/B]



So being spiteful towards people who did will help.
The taxpayer has bailed out the lenders.
Just change the law so no one has to pay back more than the house is worth.
That would end banks driving the price of houses.

Or how about this for a mad idea, people pay back the amount they borrowed.

Dempo1

Just for a moment, could people consider that a large percentage of those in mortgage difficulty actually want to see to their responsibilities, indeed these very people purchased a "HOME", may have borrowed responsibly and for a host of reasons now find themselves struggling. I actually believe there is an enormous amount of these people who are not looking for handouts or bailouts, just a workable mechanism with teeth to help them keep their homes and pay their way, albeit with some government legislation, extension of mortgages, controlled interest rates etc.

Why is it, that the mere mention of Mortgage arrears certain folk jump on the bag wagon with a **** them attitude, Quite bizarre but probably a sign of where Irish society has gone!

Depressing an enough to make me emmigrate (if i could)

citizenofeire

citizenofeire wrote: »

I am not asking to be bailed out, nor am I asking to have my mortgage paid off for me.

I am asking for leglisation to be introduced to stop re-possession of the homes of those who are making an effort to pay what they can from their reduced income.

legislation to stop reposession to those who are "making an effort" is asking for a bail out and is asking for your mortgage to be paid off by others. It would result in higher interest rates for those who are payin

whiteonion

NO, no bailouts. I lived within my means and should not have to bail out people who borrowed money they never could pay back. They can go and live in a cardboard box if they no longer can afford a roof over their heads!

hinault

The lending institution, before issuing the loan to the mortgage applicant, sends a valuer around to the property to assess it's value before approving a loan to a mortgage applicant.

So the lending institution carries some level of culpability when it valued a property in 2006 at 50% more than it's current value in 2011.

I am certain that if people could have got a 2011 valuation in 2006, we would never have had the problems we have.

Hotblack Desiato

Great, so as well as paying massive tax rises I get to pay your mortgage as well as my own. No thanks.

Archie D Bunker

ninja900 wrote: »

Great, so as well as paying massive tax rises I get to pay your mortgage as well as my own. No thanks.

For me it will be even worse - I didn't buy a house in recent years because I believed the prices were crazy and that anyone who does buy a house is foolish (and I am being very polite...) And now, I don't have my own house but they do, I am struggling same as anyone else, but I am supposed to bail out those foolish house buyers? Great, so in the end - I pay for someone else's stupid decisions, they end up having their houses paid by my taxes, and I end up having nothing because I can't afford to buy a house while paying someone else's mortgage. Some people really have strange concepts about fairness. On second thought - maybe bailing them out is a good idea - on one condition - force the banks to give people like me a 100% mortgage first, regardless of my repayment capabilities so I can buy an overpriced house I can't afford, and that way I'll enjoy the bailout also...

BluePlanet

This idea is so reprehensible!

I didn't buy during the boom because i thought the prices were crazy and people were being delusional. 2005-2006 people were already talking about the property bubble and the writing was on the wall.

If my tax euros are going to help pay from some of these reckless individuals then i demand that at least 1 bedroom in every house that taxpayers partially own, becomes social housing so we can put our needy, our refugees and our homeless someplace with security and permanancy. And no the person receiving the bailout doesn't get a veto.

fliball123

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I presume this bailout of those in arrears will come out of my pocket, as usual? This in spite of the fact that I have no mortgage and no credit cards. I behave prudently, yet I get punished because of peoples greed.

What a country.

Well let those without sin throw the first stone blah blah blah

As long as my taxes are going to unmarried mothers
As long as my taxes are going to Childrens allowences
As long as my taxes are going to pay unsustainable pensions
As long as my taxes are going to pay ps wages
As long as my taxes are going to give nearly 200 squid to an unemployed person
As long as my taxes are going to Refugees
As long as my taxes are going to banks

I dont see why they should not go to help people who are paying mortgages..

Its a demographic thing . There are well over a million people who owe money to a bank for a mortgage and who are struggling..I do not see the difference

REXER

:rolleyes:Great, lets all agree on the current low values of the houses and if/when the prices start to rise again, any increase in value over the agreed value can be scooped off the top as property capital gains tax! All of it!:mad: