Religion and the Cork plane crash

fisgon

Two observations to make here about this..
(i) Last night on the RTE news they interviewed the bishop of Cork in the airport. He had been on his way to Knock and had diverted to come down immediately to the airport. I had two immediate reactions to this, firstly, did her really think his presence would in any way improve the situation? Did he see himself as somehow coming to someone's rescue? Is this what the situation was crying out for, a catholic bishop?
And then I wondered, why the fukc were RTE interviewing this guy? He had no special knowledge, nothing to add besides the usual platitudes. He seemed to be interviewed in the same way that the local parish priest is wheeled out at the scene of a road accident, as a reflex, lazy journalism, a decades long assmuption that a cleric's perspective is what we need.

(ii) Again on RTE, this time on radio, the PP who gave the six victims of the crash the last rights was interviewed. My first thought here was, how presumptious can you get? Weren't some of the dead from England, the North? Surely not Catholics, all of them. Yet Father whatever swans in there and annoints them all. Eamon Gilmore called him a 'hero' in his interview after, but I couldn't help thinking that he was intruding on the most difficult and intimate and personal of situations, and making their deaths into a Catholic ritual, into yet another opportunity to glorify his church. What right has he to go in there and give the last rights to people who may have been unbelievers, protestants, Buddhists. (he also mentioned later on that he had performed masses and prayers in the airport so that there would be no crashes. He admitted this, with no sense of irony, I almost laughed)

Wow, didn't intend to write so much. Apologies. Not sure if the same thoughts occured to anyone else.

Wolfe Tone

FFS, all those people just died and you have managed to turn it into something to use to bash the church with?

NoQuarter

Two good points there. Just grit your teeth and bare it out, times are slowly changing.

threeleggedhors

I hear ya. Sympathies to the families but yeah very presumptuous of him to be swanning in giving last rites. It is however Catholic church .inc , good opportunity for PR can't be missed. I'm so sick of religion and seeing it promoted by RTE but maybe I'm being harsh, I suppose we're still a religious country, or are we ???

dvpower

fisgon wrote: »

(ii) Again on RTE, this time on radio, the PP who gave the six victims of the crash the last rights was interviewed. My first thought here was, how presumptious can you get? Weren't some of the dead from England, the North? Surely not Catholics, all of them. Yet Father whatever swans in there and annoints them all. Eamon Gilmore called him a 'hero' in his interview after, but I couldn't help thinking that he was intruding on the most difficult and intimate and personal of situations, and making their deaths into a Catholic ritual, into yet another opportunity to glorify his church. What right has he to go in there and give the last rights to people who may have been unbelievers, protestants, Buddhists. (he also mentioned later on that he had performed masses and prayers in the airport so that there would be no crashes. He admitted this, with no sense of irony, I almost laughed)

I caught that interview half way through. He was on about how some of them might not have been catholics but he thought they might be saved in any case. He was on about it being a very sad day for the rest of us but it was a great day for them, being that they might all be in heaven now.
Hearing that it was he who adminisered last rights brings a (small) bit of sense to it.

Dades

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

FFS, all those people just died and you have managed to turn it into something to use to bash the church with?

Unfortunately when people die the clergy seem to come crawling out of the woodwork.

It's difficult not to comment on some of their farcical reactions.

tim_holsters

The OP is dead on the money.

Wolfe Tone

Dades wrote: »

Unfortunately when people die the clergy seem to come crawling out of the woodwork.

It's difficult not to comment on some of their farcical reactions.

I think it disingenuous to say "crawling out of the woodwork" that suggests they are doing it simply for themselves, or with selfish motives, or seek in some way to capitalize or profit on death.

Rhys Essien

Agree with OP.It was a bit annoying.To hazard a guess IMO i would say of the 6 who died,3 were catholic and 3 were protestant.(going by where they were from and names)

wordcount

fisgon wrote: »

Two observations to make here about this..
(i) Last night on the RTE news they interviewed the bishop of Cork in the airport. He had been on his way to Knock and had diverted to come down immediately to the airport. I had two immediate reactions to this, firstly, did her really think his presence would in any way improve the situation? Did he see himself as somehow coming to someone's rescue? Is this what the situation was crying out for, a catholic bishop?
And then I wondered, why the fukc were RTE interviewing this guy? He had no special knowledge, nothing to add besides the usual platitudes. He seemed to be interviewed in the same way that the local parish priest is wheeled out at the scene of a road accident, as a reflex, lazy journalism, a decades long assmuption that a cleric's perspective is what we need.

(ii) Again on RTE, this time on radio, the PP who gave the six victims of the crash the last rights was interviewed. My first thought here was, how presumptious can you get? Weren't some of the dead from England, the North? Surely not Catholics, all of them. Yet Father whatever swans in there and annoints them all. Eamon Gilmore called him a 'hero' in his interview after, but I couldn't help thinking that he was intruding on the most difficult and intimate and personal of situations, and making their deaths into a Catholic ritual, into yet another opportunity to glorify his church. What right has he to go in there and give the last rights to people who may have been unbelievers, protestants, Buddhists. (he also mentioned later on that he had performed masses and prayers in the airport so that there would be no crashes. He admitted this, with no sense of irony, I almost laughed)

Wow, didn't intend to write so much. Apologies. Not sure if the same thoughts occured to anyone else.

My father died slowly of a terminal disease. He was not a very religious man. A priest from the parish came to visit him some times 3 or 4 times a week. he did not need to. My father enjoyed the visits and it did comfort my mother too.

Why do you have to reduce everything down to some religious argument or bashing.

Chill out give the man a break.

tim_holsters

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think it disingenuous to say "crawling out of the woodwork" that suggests they are doing it simply for themselves, or with selfish motives, or seek in some way to capitalize or profit on death.

Who else are they doing it for?

Wolfe Tone

tim_holsters wrote: »

Who else are they doing it for?

The people who are dying, if you are suggesting the priest went in there to those dead bodies for his own benefit you are wholly mistaken, I doubt he had a good time.

CiaranMT

In fairness, from what I've read of the story, the plane was bringing people from a religious gathering of some sort in Belfast. It's to be expected that religion would be to the forefront in this.

Not that it doesn't irk me to see 'Thank God' or somesuch splashed across the front of The Sun.

wordcount

tim_holsters wrote: »

Who else are they doing it for?

Maybe jsut maybe they feel they have a calling from God to be of assistance to people in thier hour of need. You may ot need that. You may even think its stupid. But its a comfort for people. It helps them.

tim_holsters

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The people who are dying, if you are suggesting the priest went in there to those dead bodies for his own benefit you are wholly mistaken, I doubt he had a good time.

Fair enough if that's what you think.

The priest does not know these people or their beliefs.

The reason he's "administering" to these folks is wholly to do with himself and what he may or may not feel is the right thing to do in a certain situation according to whatever particular doctrine he's following.

Personally I find the intrusion offensive.

wordcount

tim_holsters wrote: »

Fair enough if that's what you think.

The priest does not know these people or their beliefs.

Where as you do.

Pushtrak

wordcount wrote: »

Where as you do.

No better or worse than you, and you are here.

magicbastarder

wordcount wrote: »

Chill out give the man a break.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/02/11/hmmm/
so he's meant to be comforting with those words?

Wolfe Tone

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/02/11/hmmm/
so he's meant to be comforting with those words?

He is saying that hopefully they are in a better place.... I dont get your point

Pushtrak

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He is saying that hopefully they are in a better place.... I dont get your point

It is not a wonderful day for those left behind, and hollow words like that are, to me, the mark of a despicable man.

Family/friends of the victims, to clarify.

tim_holsters

wordcount wrote: »

Where as you do.

You just don't get it do you.

Thou Shall Not Impose :rolleyes:

Dearie me, slightly biblical there

magicbastarder

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He is saying that hopefully they are in a better place.... I dont get your point

he's saying that it's a great day for them because they died.
i wonder if the priest goes around thinking 'that postman is a really nice guy, i hope he dies soon. it'd be great for him.'

Wolfe Tone

magicbastarder wrote: »

he's saying that it's a great day for them because they died.
i wonder if the priest goes around thinking 'that postman is a really nice guy, i hope he dies soon. it'd be great for him.'

I interpreted it as "they have gone to a better place, in paradise yada yada" that has been a comfort to relatives for thousands of years

magicbastarder

why didn't he say it like that so? calling the day of someone's death 'a wonderful day for them' is bizarre in the extreme.
the day i die in a plane crash is most likely going to be the worst day of my life, not a wonderful day.

sherdydan

So OP, would you be offended if someone of some faith or another said a prayer or such for you?

This priest came in to give what he believes is the right thing to be doing, it doesnt hurt these people in anyway, infact i imagine if any of them were concious at the time, it would have been quite comforting, regardless of there faith etc.

This wasnt a priest forcing beliefs on people or some such, this was a priest who believes what he was doing was right and going to help these people. Nobody was hurt by it.

So please get off your politically correct high horse and out of your f**k the church mood, most of the time I would be a strong opponent of the RCC, but in this case your just being over the top.

Wolfe Tone

magicbastarder wrote: »

why didn't he say it like that so? calling the day of someone's death 'a wonderful day for them' is bizarre in the extreme.
the day i die in a plane crash is most likely going to be the worst day of my life, not a wonderful day.

Well if you end up in paradise etc it would be wonderful would it not? Hypothetically speaking of course.

Il bash the church and priests over many things, but the conduct of priests around death and dying is exemplary, certainly in my experience.

wordcount

tim_holsters wrote: »

You just don't get it do you.

Thou Shall Not Impose :rolleyes:

Dearie me, slightly biblical there

You are the one imposing. Imposing the opinion that he did not have a right to comfort these people. Some of them were religious. He felt it was his duty as a christian.

You just dont get it do you?

Pushtrak

wordcount wrote: »

You are the one imposing. Imposing the opinion that he did not have a right to comfort these people. Some of them were religious. He felt it was his duty as a christian.

You just dont get it do you?

Imposing an opinion VS imposing an action. How would that balance out?

tim_holsters

wordcount wrote: »

You are the one imposing. Imposing the opinion that he did not have a right to comfort these people. Some of them were religious. He felt it was his duty as a christian.

You just dont get it do you?

Yep that's whose important here isn't it?

Topper Harley01

I was going to write a long reply to this, but I then realised the OP is a troll.

Who else are they doing it for?

You think there is a personal gain from scenes like this?





I have found the majority of ordinary priests to be decent, well meaning, kind hearted people.

wordcount

Pushtrak wrote: »

Imposing an opinion VS imposing an action. How would that balance out?

Im mot sure there is a big difference as one usually leads to another.

tim_holsters

Oh well.

Yakult

OP, its atheists like you that give the rest a bad name.

wordcount

tim_holsters wrote: »

Yep that's whose important here isn't it?

Whats your point, he can hardly do something independent of HIM can he?

tim_holsters

Wordcount, I wish yours was zero.

I really do.

johnmcdnl

I didn't see the leaders of Atheist Ireland trying to console the victims families in any way so why can't ye have a bit of respect for the dead and for all those that are trying to help the victims and their families...

The church was their because at the end of the day Catholic Church INC or whatever ye want to call it were doing one of the fundamental things the church actually does well - trying to console and help those that need help...


I'm not a supporter of the church but bashing them even when they try to do good is a step too far... Do you really hate the church and what it stands for that much that you start to bash it for coming to try to do whatever it could to try to help the victims??? true you mightn't believe in their prayers but at they do and they think their doing the right thing and being there in itself is showing support....


OP - you really need to look at where your heart is - there is a lot of problems in the church I'll no doubt agree and as I said before I'm not a supporter of the church and rarely if ever go to any services bar funerals or weddings... but the church stands for love and caring when it is needed - what does atheism stand for??? like I said where were the members of the atheist community when the victims needed that help and support???

yes it's true that the church and a lot in the church is bad - but what's actually worse is militant atheism like this OP...

tim_holsters

Usually I'm not up this late.

smokiebeverage

I got out of bed to post this because I have never heard such S*** in my whole life. I like many people here only go to church for weddings and funerals so I would in no way call myself religious.

Firstly all christian faiths have some form of last rites, and in times of war or disasters it is really common for a minister of any faith to give them. Even now US chaplains carry the catholic rite with them if they need to use it. There were even cases of rabbis giving rites during the Vietnam war. Even as an atheist why would you care if you were given last rites, its not like its going to hurt you or anything. More importantly just because you are an atheist does not mean your family and friends are, and it may bring comfort to them. Its an old saying 'you don't find many atheists in a foxhole' and you can be damn sure you don't find many in a plane crash either.

As for what the priest said afterwords, the next time you have to speak after witnessing what he had to see, lets see how good an orator you are.

As for having a go at the man for being there, thats ridiculous, clergymen and women are always called to large accidents. In a country with a majority of Catholics, its most likely it will be a catholic priest. In other countries it may be a some other denomination. But I know if it was me in that crash I'd like to know I wasn't dying alone and somebody was there with me, even if it was an atheist, it wouldn't matter because the comfort is in the human piece not the words. Most priests know this and thats why they do it, if your ever in a hospice do you think any clergy man is going to ask what faith you are? Of course not, if you want to talk he'll be there. Many people in this country would die alone without them.

Right I'm off to bed again!

wordcount

johnmcdnl wrote: »

I didn't see the leaders of Atheist Ireland trying to console the victims families.

That would not be a rational thing to do.

fisgon

strobe wrote: »

The OP is not anything. But a troll. This is the forth forum this has been in that I know of.

Not a troll at all, these were my actual reactions listening to these two guys. And this is the first time I've posted about this, so if anyone else has opened threads on it it may suggest I wasn't the only one to have these opinions.

There is a lot of talk about 'church-bashing' here, a phrase you hear a lot, usually by people who have no answer to an argument but simply want to close the debate down.

My point is that religion is a succubus, it feeds on all kinds of situations, but especially tragic situations like this, and uses them for its own purposes. The motivations of the two individual clerics were, no doubt, complex, they obviously thought that they were helping in a way, but the point goes deeper than that. They were acting from their training and formation, which is that death is their patch, tragedy is an area where the church has to be involved in, and occasions like these must be made as much as possible into Catholic occasions. There is an element of the vulture about this, seeing the death and injury of these people as as an occasion where religion has to be involved, and has to visible.

The individual men may have had some good motives, but they were acting as part of a belief system that is not famed for its humility or tolerance. There is an element of marking of territory about the fact that these priests turn up at any sign of death or illness. It has been going on for so long in this country that people don’t even question it anymore, the sense of entitlement of the church, the desire to make situations like this about them as much as possible.

Also to add, I didn’t mention in the OP about what that priest said at the end of the interview, as I couldn’t quite believe I had heard right, I couldn’t believe that he had really uttered such an unbelievably deluded, moronic, insensitive thing. But apparently he did…

“And what I was thinking this morning was that it’s an awful day for relatives – we don’t want it to happen, none of us want it to happen – but God willing, for those who are gone, God willing, it is a wonderful day for them”

A wonderful day.

bnt

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think it disingenuous to say "crawling out of the woodwork" that suggests they are doing it simply for themselves, or with selfish motives, or seek in some way to capitalize or profit on death.

I thought the OP was referring to the Bishop of Cork in particular. I can see how a priest can give some comfort to the bereaved where appropriate, and yes, we know that clergy can be good people too. For the Bishop to fly in and meet the press, however - yes, I would call that self-serving.

You know what really annoyed me? Newspaper headlines calling it a "miracle" that some survived the crash. Um ... how much of a "miracle" was it for those who did not survive? Talk abut cherry-picking ... :mad:

MrPudding

wordcount wrote: »

That would not be a rational thing to do.

I don't think it has anything to rationality. It is simply that atheism does not do worthless platitudes. What should we say " ah well, at least he's dead now" perhaps "well be is in a better place now. And by better place I mean the ground." I find it very difficult to be around friends that are religious or even nominally religious. I won't give the worthless platitudes, so I am really only left with the old sorry for your loss.

I don't believe in god no don't believe in heaven or hell. I Believe d that when you die that is pretty much it. I would expect that the people in AI believe something similar kind of hard to compete with an organisation that, in between protecting and enabling child rapists, spend years teaching their employees how to spout platitudes as if their afterlife depended on it.*

MrP

magicbastarder

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well if you end up in paradise etc it would be wonderful would it not? Hypothetically speaking of course.

Il bash the church and priests over many things, but the conduct of priests around death and dying is exemplary, certainly in my experience.

the church have found themselves in an odd position where they have to portray people dying as a wonderful thing, yet forbid suicide. i could understand the priest portraying the deceased going to heaven as a consolation, but his choice of words was unfortunate.
people have talked about the church being good at consoling in times like this. the priest dropped the ball this time.

wordcount

MrPudding wrote: »

It is simply that atheism does not do worthless platitudes.
MrP

One mans worthless platitude makes perfect sense to another. See above for an example.

eblistic

The fact that the church thrives on vulnerability in this way, whether deliberately or without giving it much thought, is disgraceful. That said, it was the furthest thing from my mind watching that bulletin.

Dave!

Can't say I have the same reaction as the OP here. I think the priest had good intentions, and if statistics are anything to go by, the families probably found his words more 'mildly comforting' than 'completely abhorrent'. I think it's a bit cynical to see selfish intent here. Priests do lots of admirable things for which they deserve recognition, and this is an example of that.

ironingbored

johnmcdnl wrote: »

...why can't ye have a bit of respect for the dead and for all those that are trying to help the victims and their families...

Did the priest pull someone out of the wreckage? This would be "helping". Or did he interfere with dead/injured at the scene of an accident?

johnmcdnl wrote: »

could to try to help the victims??? true you mightn't believe in their prayers but at they do and they think their doing the right thing and being there in itself is showing support....

I do not want a priest near me with anointing oil, prayers or the like in the same situation. The default position should be wait until you know that the person is a Catholic and then perform the ritual.

If there is a god I WANT him/her/it to know that I wish not to be part of his club

johnmcdnl wrote: »

what does atheism stand for???

Dictionary

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>

johnmcdnl wrote: »

yes it's true that the church and a lot in the church is bad - but what's actually worse is militant atheism like this OP...

:rolleyes:

Yeah, how can you compare raping children and covering it up with strongly held opinions about secularism.

Beruthiel

The priest may have had good intentions, but, were I a person in that situation, I believe, with my last dying breath, I'd tell him to fuk off with his last rite platitudes.
I think it highly presumptuous of anyone to just assume I would want them.

robindch

Given that the plane was coming from Belfast, I'd have thought it probable that at least one or two of the dead would not have been members of the catholic religion. If that was the case, then the priest could have caused all kinds of theological woe by carrying out the wrong religious ritual.

Overall, nobody came out well in this. The dead remain dead; the priest did what his religion required, but it's presumptuous in the extreme and his subsequent comments will win him few friends; the OP made a fair point concerning the bishop, but in situations like this, there are few people who feel then can speak for the community, except for the politicians, and absolutely nobody wants to hear from them just now.

If the various churches want to assume the right to do perform random religious rituals upon the random dead and injured, then something like an organ donor card seems reasonable, or perhaps just a quick note on an actual organ donor card, with the default position being no religious rites. But it'll be a long time before that happens. Presumption being the base of much of religion.

Michael Nugent

johnmcdnl wrote: »

I didn't see the leaders of Atheist Ireland trying to console the victims families in any way so why can't ye have a bit of respect for the dead and for all those that are trying to help the victims and their families...

I assume that you didn't intend this, but your phrasing implies that atheists are somehow less likely to console the victims of tragedies or their families. This is untrue.

What we are less likely to do is assume that we can walk onto the scenes of major tragedies, simply by virtue of our atheism, and recite incantations over dead bodies.

And, if for some reason we did want to do that, the authorities would (rightly) not let us near the scene of the accident unless we had some function as part of the emergency response plan, and the media would (rightly) see no reason to interview us about it.

magicbastarder

to a dying catholic, a catholic priest might be good for some consolation and reassurance.
to a dying atheist, another atheist might be good for a chat about oblivion.