3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

sparky42

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Not by much id say.

The first 23 was commissioned in '89, so 6 years, but like I said they've been used far longer than planned.

Leonidas BL

sparky42 wrote: »

The first 23 was commissioned in '89, so 6 years, but like I said they've been used far longer than planned.

But its not the kinda thing we are looking for anyway is it?

sparky42

Leonidas BL wrote: »

But its not the kinda thing we are looking for anyway is it?

A last generation ASW Frigate... Nope.

jonnybigwallet

Sparky. Take a look at the wikipedia entry for the type 23. It's been substantially upgraded now with anti ship and anti aircraft and hefty CIWS ( happens to be the same gun as used on the DF Mowags). Its practically a poor man's destroyer following all the upgrades, which also include all the radar and other electronic paraphernalia. Would be a bloody useful bit of kit with helicopter and a hanger. The NS need at least one ship with a credible war fighting capability and this one wouldn't cost too much as they were procured a wee while ago now before stuff got really pricey. So probably could get one fairly cheaply. And servicing / training etc would be a doddle with the UK right next door. It's got to be a credible contender IMO, and I'm trying to suggest things which won't break the bank, knowing how stingy the government is and the apathy of the public.

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Sparky. Take a look at the wikipedia entry for the type 23. It's been substantially upgraded now with anti ship and anti aircraft and hefty CIWS ( happens to be the same gun as used on the DF Mowags). Its practically a poor man's destroyer following all the upgrades, which also include all the radar and other electronic paraphernalia. Would be a bloody useful bit of kit with helicopter and a hanger. The NS need at least one ship with a credible war fighting capability and this one wouldn't cost too much as they were procured a wee while ago now before stuff got really pricey. So probably could get one fairly cheaply. And servicing / training etc would be a doddle with the UK right next door. It's got to be a credible contender IMO, and I'm trying to suggest things which won't break the bank, knowing how stingy the government is and the apathy of the public.

I know what the 23's have, the point stands however. They are a decade old design and even with the midlife refit that they are in the process of having (which is a major one since they were never intended to have one). The 4.5" is a niche gun for the RN which may be ending (depending on whether the 45 upgrade goes to a 5"), the Harpoons are end of lifeing and will be out of service soon enough, the hulls are worn.


More to the point you seem to be forgetting that the UK is trying to fudge the cost of the new Frigates by sinking the costs into the 23. So when they do decommission, their radars, their Sea Ceptors, their ECM system, their Sonar all of that is being pulled and passed on to the new frigates as they go.


So basically what they end up is a 30+ year old hull with it's systems pulled out. I don't see any benefit to us.

jonnybigwallet

Ah well. Suppose it's an idea to consider and fit out could be subject to negotiation. Gonna wrap it for tonight and see if anybody can come up with a better and cost effective solution. Would be nice to see a worthy replacement for the Eithne and the more gutsy the better IMO. Night All!

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Ah well. Suppose it's an idea to consider and fit out could be subject to negotiation. Gonna wrap it for tonight and see if anybody can come up with a better and cost effective solution. Would be nice to see a worthy replacement for the Eithne and the more gutsy the better IMO. Night All!

The planned baseline for the Eithne replacement is already well known, and we've already seen a "interesting" suggestion from Vard that just "happens" to be using Irish equipment images in their PR material.

Leonidas BL

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-313/

sparky42

Yep, with helo images that just happen to be close to the 139's down to the roundels, and the design had the 76mm added on...

jonnybigwallet

Extremely cool piece of kit that. Just bang on some missiles as well and that would "float my boat" (excuse the corny pun)

Leonidas BL

Something like this would seem good enough, and a step up from current capabilities.
https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/simbad-rc/

ohnonotgmail

who, exactly, would we be firing these missiles at?

Markcheese

I'll bite ... How much does 1 of those cost , ? Would a large ship need more than 1 launcher ...? And what sort of air radar does the ship need for it to plug into ..

sparky42

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

who, exactly, would we be firing these missiles at?

Those are self defence systems, and given recent examples in the Med and off Africa not the worst idea for a ship that might have a couple of hundred troops on top of it's crew on board.

Leonidas BL

Markcheese wrote: »

I'll bite ... How much does 1 of those cost , ? Would a large ship need more than 1 launcher ...? And what sort of air radar does the ship need for it to plug into ..

If you click the link you can read all about it.

Leonidas BL

I think the RBS 70 can be mounted on a ship too.

jonnybigwallet

Fully endorse that idea. Fit for purpose for the type of ship it is. I suppose 2 might be enough? Maybe 4 is better? Hell of a solid looking ship if affordable... wonder how long from order to delivery? I love the massive helideck. You could even have four Harriers on board which would give Jonny Russian a hell of a nasty surprise. Keep up the research lads!

Markcheese

Leonidas BL wrote: »

If you click the link you can read all about it.

I did ,didn't see the price though ,and didn't cop wether it needed a specialised marine air radar ..
Tie the back of a bv 70 on the deck ,lash the giraffe radar mast onto the ships mast ,and a few bv 70s ,be grand ... ( That'd make me the opposite of johhny above , )

Leonidas BL

Markcheese wrote: »

I did ,didn't see the price though ,and didn't cop wether it needed a specialised marine air radar ..
Tie the back of a bv 70 on the deck ,lash the giraffe radar mast onto the ships mast ,and a few bv 70s ,be grand ... ( That'd make me the opposite of johhny above , )

Dunno about price, but they seem top be a similar type missile to the RBS 70 so they are basically a shoulder mounted missile mounted in a special naval launcher.

Leonidas BL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6EO9D51UIc

There's a video explaining it. All I know is I want one mounted on the top of my van.

sparky42

Markcheese wrote: »

I did ,didn't see the price though ,and didn't cop wether it needed a specialised marine air radar ..
Tie the back of a bv 70 on the deck ,lash the giraffe radar mast onto the ships mast ,and a few bv 70s ,be grand ... ( That'd make me the opposite of johhny above , )

The Mistral is Infrared Homing, so I'd guess that the Ship's air search radar could que it to the target area, and the design would have to have an Air Search system for her helicopters, as Eithne once had when she had a helicopter.

Leonidas BL

sparky42 wrote: »

The Mistral is Infrared Homing, so I'd guess that the Ship's air search radar could que it to the target area, and the design would have to have an Air Search system for her helicopters, as Eithne once had when she had a helicopter.

It seems to have its own infrared search on top of the unit. There is an older version thats just fired by hand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmo_rKuZKQc

Heres an RBS 70 mounted on a ship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHIheBUg_tE

cameramonkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjR1Pzldc8E

This is what they need.

sparky42

cameramonkey wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjR1Pzldc8E

This is what they need.

It's not an either or, it's more both, but unlikely.

jonnybigwallet

Exactly. Oto melara forward facing and 2 or 4 of the missile units on the sides. Cracking video of the Mistral rocket firing by the French navy! Seems pretty accurate.

jonnybigwallet

Interesting item in yesterday's Examiner about the NS. Apparently the Maritime Forum is urging the government to replace the 2 inshore vessels with replacements which have a mine sweeping capability.

Yawlboy

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Interesting item in yesterday's Examiner about the NS. Apparently the Maritime Forum is urging the government to replace the 2 inshore vessels with replacements which have a mine sweeping capability.

That would be sensible, we used to have that capability but its been a long time. I think for UN/EU work it would be useful for peace keeping operations.

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Interesting item in yesterday's Examiner about the NS. Apparently the Maritime Forum is urging the government to replace the 2 inshore vessels with replacements which have a mine sweeping capability.

Yawlboy wrote: »

That would be sensible, we used to have that capability but its been a long time. I think for UN/EU work it would be useful for peace keeping operations.

Ah no, I'm guessing said Forum looked at the WP and just repeated what the Government put in it back to everyone to make a headline. The WP suggested that years ago but the Peacock replacement is "paused".


Frankly unless we change our stance on NATO I don't see the point as to be effective we'd need to do massive training to get up to spec, attaching to the NATO standing groups would really be the only practical way to build up that experience quickly enough.


That being said the roles also don't fit, the WP called for replacing the Peacocks with something of similar tonnage/spec, but if you look at the new build European Sweepers they are about the 3K tons, you aren't going to fit a modern anti mine capability onto a hull the size of the Peacock.

jonnybigwallet

Some of the RN minesweepers are quite a bit smaller than 3K tonnes. And of timber construction if I remember correctly (the hulls).

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Some of the RN minesweepers are quite a bit smaller than 3K tonnes. And of timber construction if I remember correctly (the hulls).

And they are also decades old, I'm talking about the current build hulls for example which are much larger due to the changes in doctrine. The new Belgian/Dutch class that are being designed shows the changes in design. Even for the RN the floated replacements (whenever they happen) are to be much larger designs.