The squat vs The leg press

RonFan

I tried squatting for a month or so, and found the form very hard to master. Partly because my legs are quite long and I found that I needed to bend over a lot to get all the way down, causing much strain on my lower back. So one day when the rack was in use, I decided to give the leg press a go. I was very impressed.

I was able to get a much higher level of intensity and in contrast to my experience with squatting, every week I went back the weight I used increased.

I've aware of the the usual preaching of the squat being 'the greatest exercise on the planet' and how it 'releases special, secret testosterone in your body' and so on. But it seems to me leg pressing is just a more advanced, modern way of squatting.

Is this obsession with the squat just a passed on view from olden times when the squat was the only available way to work one's legs? What are the real advantages of squatting as opposed to leg pressing?

Thanks for any replies in advance. Would be a great help.

Brian?

Apples v oranges. Actually apples v frozen concentrated orange juice.

Did you have someone coaching you to squat? I seem to remember an article by Mark Rippetoe on teaching 7 foot basketball players to squat. Google that.

Pace2008

RonFan wrote: »

I tried squatting for a month or so, and found the form very hard to master. Partly because my legs are quite long and I found that I needed to bend over a lot to get all the way down, causing much strain on my lower back. So one day when the rack was in use, I decided to give the leg press a go. I was very impressed.

This just means you currently lack the flexibility to do a squat.

You're knocking the exercise but you're not even doing squats; what you're performing is a progressive workout designed to give you the Quasimodo look by summer.

d'Oracle

RonFan wrote: »

I've aware of the the usual preaching of the squat being 'the greatest exercise on the planet' and how it 'releases special, secret testosterone in your body' and so on. But it seems to me leg pressing is just a more advanced, modern way of squatting.

Is this obsession with the squat just a passed on view from olden times when the squat was the only available way to work one's legs? What are the real advantages of squatting as opposed to leg pressing?

.

It doesn't.
And I have yet to have anybody point out any evidence that it triggers a release in regular testosterone. ( Hint....Anybody?)

A leg press is basically a quad exercise.
A squat is a most stuff exercise.
The squat uses a LOT (most) of you lower body muscles.

A leg press will not get your back stronger, or your hips, or your groin.

Basically the leg press is not even remotely a more modern version of the squat because its a very different movement.

Learn to squat properly see how that feels and then make your own mind up.

squod

Bit of coaching and a lighter weight. maybe try a wider stance, who knows. You caould also try a different movement like thrusters, which might help get you into your groove in the squat.

Hanley

How many of you have actually tried to teach a tall person with abnormally long legs to squat?

Or even seen the practical issues that arise?

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

How many of you have actually tried to teach a tall person with abnormally long legs to squat?

Or even seen the practical issues that arise?

The question boils down to is the leg press the same as the squat.
If he needs a coach he needs a coach.

Why don't you recommend he gets some coaching?

Its cos its just more fun to poke at folk, isn't it.

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

How many of you have actually tried to teach a tall person with abnormally long legs to squat?

Or even seen the practical issues that arise?

He tried squatting for a month, gave ip and wants to know whether le presses are better.

Why not address that?

rocky

Leg press:



"Given the choice, you'd have squatted too"

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/squat-versus-leg-press-for-big-legs.html

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

How many of you have actually tried to teach a tall person with abnormally long legs to squat?

Or even seen the practical issues that arise?

He tried squatting for a month, gave ip and wants to know whether le presses are better.

Why not address that?

harvester of sorrow

Hack squat maybe?

SanoVitae

d'Oracle wrote: »

Why don't you recommend he gets some coaching?

Its cos its just more fun to poke at folk, isn't it.

Sounds like Hanley is merely suggesting the possibility that the OP's body structure is not best suited to squatting.

Rather than the usual suggestions given in threads like this (get some coaching, do some foam rolling, work on your flexibility etc), perhaps we need to get some more information from the OP before we make recommendations.

d'Oracle - why don't you believe that the leg press doesn't work the hips and groin. While there are certainly some rubbish leg press machines which focus on the quads, I've used many which really hit the groin, hips and especially the glutes very hard.

Magic Eight Ball

Unable to squat at the mo so using the leg press machine in Raw (which is savage) super set with rack pulls.

G86

Hanley wrote: »

How many of you have actually tried to teach a tall person with abnormally long legs to squat?

Or even seen the practical issues that arise?

I've been that person....:o

In fairness though OP, there are ways around it and small changes you can make to your technique that will make a big difference. Getting some coaching and just taking a wider stance and squatting low bar worked wonders for me.

Pace2008

Hanley wrote: »

How many of you have actually tried to teach a tall person with abnormally long legs to squat?

Or even seen the practical issues that arise?

I'll admit there might be a lack of perspective on my part as I'm 5'9, so there's not so much of me to move about.

I could never understand how people considered pull ups difficult till I considered the relative ROM between me and some lanky ****.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

The question boils down to is the leg press the same as the squat.

Does it? If it does, It's obviously not.

But What if he is physically unable to use his legs to squat because his legs are so long and torso is so short that he needs to lean forward to such an extent that it becomes a squat-GM?

Think it's unlikely? I've trained with a guy who's over 6'4 and I was taller than him when we sat down.

Should he squat anyway because that's the dogma around here? Or should he find something else that works his legs?

Since when does leg pressing not work your glutes, hips and hamstrings?!

If he needs a coach he needs a coach.

Yup. But not all problems are fixable.

Why don't you recommend he gets some coaching?

Where did I say not to get coached? Stop trying to set me up for another one of your little tit for tat arguments.

Everyone else is telling him to get coached anyway. A good coach won't hurt him, but he may not be able to fix the problem.

Its cos its just more fun to poke at folk, isn't it.

Hanley

SanoVitae wrote: »

Sounds like Hanley is merely suggesting the possibility that the OP's body structure is not best suited to squatting.

Rather than the usual suggestions given in threads like this (get some coaching, do some foam rolling, work on your flexibility etc), perhaps we need to get some more information from the OP before we make recommendations.

Ding ding ding ding ding - Winner.

This is the problem that exists when n=1. Someone elses physical limitations aren't considered. "I squat, so you must squat". Can someone please post that Rip video?!

And OP, try front squats. But I'm guessing your flexibility won't allow for them either. But at least once you get to the point where you can hold a good position your long legs aren't going to f*ck you up as much.

Rycn

It even builds your forearms...

mailliw

As people have mentioned here before, the squat is a great compound exercise (in that it works several muscles, more or less all your leg muscles), even doing a bit for your forearms. Because of the compound aspect to it, it produces loads of Growth Hormone (maybe this is the "special, secret testosterone" people are going on about!) which is the main muscle-building hormone in your body. As well as that, the squat has the advantage of you lifting your own bodyweight along with the weights. So say I leg press 400lb, and there are no more weights to put on, if I then switch to squat I can put the weight down to about 180 and I'll be lifting almost the same weight (I weigh 200lb), and can keep progressing in the weights. So for me, the squat is preferable, but if you have physical limitations that mean you're not doing a full, properly techniqued rep in any exercise, I'd switch to something else immediately!
Hope you found this helpful

Hanley

mailliw wrote: »

...it produces loads of Growth Hormone (maybe this is the "special, secret testosterone" people are going on about!) which is the main muscle-building hormone in your body...

Proof, quantification and real world implications of this increase please.

columok

assuming the leg press increases lower body absolute strength how would you measure this without squatting? (As in what format of testing would you use?)

COH

columok wrote: »

assuming the leg press increases lower body absolute strength how would you measure this without squatting? (As in what format of testing would you use?)

Eh.. leg pressing more?

mailliw

Hanley wrote: »

Proof, quantification and real world implications of this increase please.

in terms of proof: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dennis1.htm#3

And real-life implications? Well, you build muscle more effectively with squats than with leg presses.

COH

mailliw wrote: »

in terms of proof: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dennis1.htm#3
.

Lol... seriously?

Molly

Proof is scientific papers showing it, not random articles written on the internet. Hanley for someone who is unable to squat what would you recommend they do. While the leg press is decent surely there is a better substitution?

mailliw

COH wrote: »

Lol... seriously?

Well you find me something that counters my argument, then I'll get you something a little more back-up worthy

Barry.Oglesby

NOW THAT'S SCIENCE!

SanoVitae

For real evidence and proof, you need to first ask these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4afjWwb5vQ

Barry.Oglesby

mailliw wrote: »

Well you find me something that counters my argument, then I'll get you something a little more back-up worthy

When the claim is as carrrazy as yours is (that bending your legs increases testosterone production) the burden of proof is on he who makes the claim. So you show me the proof that 5qu@tt1ng increases test production.

By the by I have a top tip for increasing your testosterone production but since you guys seem to spend an awful lot of time on the internet, I'm going to go ahead and assume you won't be able to use it...

Hanley

Molly wrote: »

Proof is scientific papers showing it, not random articles written on the internet. Hanley for someone who is unable to squat what would you recommend they do. While the leg press is decent surely there is a better substitution?

Ah hell I don't know. There's so many options dude, that's the beauty of it, you're not tied to one exercise forever. Nor should you be with squats either. Here's some ideas:
-try low bar squats
-box squats w/ a higher boxing sitting waaaaaaay back so the emphasis is still on glutes and hams
-front squats
-split squats
-leg press

mailliw wrote: »

Well you find me something that counters my argument, then I'll get you something a little more back-up worthy

You made the statement, so the burden of proof is on your to back up your position.

There's a sh!t ton of good reasons to squat, and I'm a bigger fan of it than pretty much anyone on the forum. I just don't buy pseudo-scientific arguments about GH and test production as a valid reason to squat.

If I'm gonna lie to someone to make them squat then I'll jsut tell them I'm going to gang-rape their family pet unless they do.

FrostyJack

Hanley wrote: »

I just don't buy pseudo-scientific arguments about GH and test production as a valid reason to squat.

Who came up with this idea in the first place? Like others I've heard this for years but seen no evidence of it.

Doug Cartel

FrostyJack wrote: »

Who came up with this idea in the first place? Like others I've heard this for years but seen no evidence of it.

It's a "widely recognised fact" that gets mentioned in the 20 squats/GOMAD routine. I guess that could be a starting point if you're looking to find who came up with it.

SanoVitae

FrostyJack wrote: »

Who came up with this idea in the first place? Like others I've heard this for years but seen no evidence of it.

Most likely a die-hard squatter who believes that exercises like leg pressing leads to the production of a hormone with the total opposite side-effects to that of testosterone......

Remmy

Doug Cartel wrote: »

It's a "widely recognised fact" that gets mentioned in the 20 squats/GOMAD routine. I guess that could be a starting point if you're looking to find who came up with it.

Yep and I think Riptoe mentions it a good few times too.

El Horseboxo

I have long legs and i struggled with squatting in the beginning. I would squat so i could have a side view in the mirror and try correct my movement. I'd use a light weight so i could turn my head and check in the mirror. I gradually increased the weight and if i ever felt myself going forward i would lower the weight and try correct my form again. I would also go as heavy as possible on the smyth machine and go down as far as possible. Eventually everthing clicked and i could increase the weight and maintain good form.

Rycn

Study: Int J Sports Med. 1991 Apr;12(2):228-35
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1860749
Endogenous anabolic hormonal and growth factor responses to heavy resistance exercise in males and females.

To examine endogenous anabolic hormonal responses to two different types of heavy resistance exercise protocols (HREPs), eight male and eight female subjects performed two randomly assigned protocols (i.e. P-1 and P-2) on separate days. Each protocol consisted of eight identically ordered exercises carefully designed to control for load, rest period length, and total work (J) effects. P-1 utilized a 5 RM load, 3-min rest periods and had lower total work than P-2. P-2 utilized a 10 RM load, 1-min rest periods and had a higher total work than P-1. Whole blood lactate and serum glucose, human growth hormone (hGH), testosterone (T), and somatomedin-C [SM-C] (i.e. insulin-like growth factor 1, IGF-1) were determined pre-exercise, mid-exercise (i.e. after 4 of the 8 exercises), and at 0, 5, 15, 30, and 60 min post-exercise. Males demonstrated significant (p less than 0.05) increases above rest in serum T values, and all serum concentrations were greater than corresponding female values. Growth hormone increases in both males and females following the P-2 HREP were significantly greater at all time points than corresponding P-1 values. Females exhibited significantly higher pre-exercise hGH levels compared to males. The P-1 exercise protocol did not result in any hGH increases in females. SM-C demonstrated random significant increases above rest in both males and females in response to both HREPs.

Right so, it doesn't specifically say "squatting" but I read somewhere that this was one of the 'two different types of heavy resistance exercises'.

Hanley

Rycn wrote: »

Study: Int J Sports Med. 1991 Apr;12(2):228-35
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1860749
Endogenous anabolic hormonal and growth factor responses to heavy resistance exercise in males and females.

Right so, it doesn't specifically say "squatting" but I read somewhere that this was one of the 'two different types of heavy resistance exercises'.

So using 10rm instead of 5rm gives you greater GH release. Or is it 1 minute rest instead of 3...? Or was it the squats...??

I assume people can see my point?

rocky

That study doesn't compare squats to something else, only volumes and rest intervals.

10 RM and 1 min intervals > 5RM and 3 min intervals? Not sure, because the volume was lower in the 5RM group

And how significant is 'significant'? From the pov of measuring it, a 20% increase may look like a lot, but if obtaining visible muscle growth advantages necesitates 100% increase in test (for example), then it doesn't look as impressive.

Rycn

Hanley wrote: »

So using 10rm instead of 5rm gives you greater GH release. Or is it 1 minute rest instead of 3...? Or was it the squats...??

I assume people can see my point?

No idea. Just thought i'd throw it in since it looks relevant to the debate.

Can't understand much of it myself but it's a valid study either way.

Edit: "Serum T" means serum testosterone.

amazingemmet

But does that study show production of Testoserone has increased or just serum Testosterone increases, two completely different beasts

gymsoldier

Rycn wrote: »

It even builds your forearms...

Ha Ha i love it

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

So using 10rm instead of 5rm gives you greater GH release. Or is it 1 minute rest instead of 3...? Or was it the squats...??

I assume people can see my point?

I see your point re: hormone production. I really don't care of squatting releases gh or test in greater amounts than the leg press. The OP asked which was better, squats are. Yeah it's more difficult of you have long limbs, does that mean tall people shouldn't squat: no.

The OP says it hurt his back because he leaned forward too much, that's a technical issue, maybe one that can't be fixed for some reason, but that doesn't mean he should give up on squatting surely?

I really don't see what you're trying to argue.

gymsoldier

The moment your body starts folding forward in a squat is the moment you have to address flexability. Regardless of limb lenght or hight, poor flexability will result in poor form on the squat. Tight Rectus Formoris is causing forward pelvic tilt and pulling the rest of your body with it.

Rycn

amazingemmet wrote: »

But does that study show production of Testoserone has increased or just serum Testosterone increases, two completely different beasts

Read the thing and find out.

It says nothing about the production of testosterone and were not talking about the production of testosterone.

Were talking about increased levels of anabolic hormones. AKA magic fairy juice.

I think were supposed to be talking about the leg press though...

kevpants

No matter what the levers you should be able to squat. If you're particularly long of leg with a short torso you're more than likely going to look beyond help when you start off.

Particularly because new squatters tend to fold up like an accordion rather than sit down between their knees.

There's no point in saying squatting is overrated based on stupid internet witchcraft. GH production is not a valid plus point of it as far as anyone who isn't a halfwit is concerned.

Just a basic rule of lifting is to lift heavy things through as much ROM as you can on your own. Trying to get each muscle individually stronger by isolating it and never actually asking them to work together is stupid and only based on bodybuilding culture that's lapped up by aspiring meatheads.

No matter what the levers I'd back the beginner doing some kind of squat over the guy who sits into various contraptions and thinks he's doing better because it feels so great in a race to getting bigger/moving heavy things/being better at sport stuff.

It's not meant to feel great! It's meant to feel terrible!

Hanley

briankeating wrote: »

I see your point re: hormone production. I really don't care of squatting releases gh or test in greater amounts than the leg press. The OP asked which was better, squats are. Yeah it's more difficult of you have long limbs, does that mean tall people shouldn't squat: no.

The OP says it hurt his back because he leaned forward too much, that's a technical issue, maybe one that can't be fixed for some reason, but that doesn't mean he should give up on squatting surely?

I really don't see what you're trying to argue.

Did you read my post?

Did you see where I said it can be mechanical and not technical?

Im speaking with DIRECT experience training with a guy who had this issue. There was literally nothing we could do to get him squatting well. Sure, he could squat, but he was looking to bodybuild and it was doing nothing for his legs.

Solution? Front squats, leg press, high box squats.

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

No matter what the levers you should be able to squat. If you're particularly long of leg with a short torso you're more than likely going to look beyond help when you start off.[/youtube]

Disagree. This guy basically looked like a basketball player, with longer legs. They exist. It's rare, but they exist!

Particularly because new squatters tend to fold up like an accordion rather than sit down between their knees.

Agree

There's no point in saying squatting is overrated based on stupid internet witchcraft. GH production is not a valid plus point of it as far as anyone who isn't a halfwit is concerned.

Strongly agree

Just a basic rule of lifting is to lift heavy things through as much ROM as you can on your own. Trying to get each muscle individually stronger by isolating it and never actually asking them to work together is stupid and only based on bodybuilding culture that's lapped up by aspiring meatheads.

Agree with a caveat. I've trained with a fair few BB'ers in Hercs and the guys with shorter legs always got better results with squats than the longer limbed guys. Admittedly, his may be because shorter legs are more liekly to add mass easier. I would guess that the guys ability to keep his torso upright and put more stress on his legs leads to great leg, ad especially quad growth.

No matter what the levers I'd back the beginner doing some kind of squat over the guy who sits into various contraptions and thinks he's doing better because it feels so great in a race to getting bigger/moving heavy things/being better at sport stuff.

Strongly agree. We're singing the same song, from the same hymn sheet, just at a different pitch!! I'm not saying do leg extensions with your toes pointed at particular angles to isolate parts of your quads. What I'm saying is that if you can't legitimately squat beacuse of some anatomical design fault, then work around it and do some variation!!

It's not meant to feel great! It's meant to feel terrible!

I keep telling her that, but she never believes me. Im gonna try "it feels crap for you, but it's really nice for me, you don't want to be selfish and put your own happiness ahead of my own do you?" next time. :D

Kev M

gymsoldier wrote: »

The moment your body starts folding forward in a squat is the moment you have to address flexability. Regardless of limb lenght or hight, poor flexability will result in poor form on the squat. Tight Rectus Formoris is causing forward pelvic tilt and pulling the rest of your body with it.

Or maybe there's a lack of back/abdominal strength...
Or maybe, due to body proportions, there's literally no way to descend more than a few inches without folding.
I absolutely believe, based on no scientific research whatsoever, that squatting for some people is cr^p.

I think you could get anybody doing partial squats well, but some just won't be able to go parallel without folding..

metamorphosis

Hanley wrote: »

I keep telling her that, but she never believes me. Im gonna try "it feels crap for you, but it's really nice for me, you don't want to be selfish and put your own happiness ahead of my own do you?" next time. :D

Lets try to not make comments that keep driving girls away from the forum.

dantes87

Been squatting more regularly since the new year.
I've noticed increased body hair and aggression.

Must be all that extra test floating around me now:)

Also my forearms are ripped..

Rycn

Petition for forearm sub-forum: +1

I can see transforms next article/video now...

"Forearm beasting via the squat"