The so called FF "Heave"

SEPT 23 1989

Does anyone else smell a rat over this whole episode?

Its all too nice and civilised for a party like Fianna Fail

I think the truth about Anglo and FF is so bad that they are willing to stage this sham event to deflect public and media attention away from the real story

maybe im wrong?

orourkeda

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Does anyone else smell a rat over this whole episode?

Its all too nice and civilised for a party like Fianna Fail

I think the truth about Anglo and FF is so bad that they are willing to stage this sham event to deflect public and media attention away from the real story

maybe im wrong?

Who's buying it?

FreudianSlippers

I think it's just foreshadowing FF splitting into 2 parties.

I think the younger crowd of FFers want to distance themselves from the guys that really fúcked the place up. In fairness, it's not really fair to blame everyone in FF when some of them had no power or influence.

I'd still vote for a young FFer with good, progressive ideas and a bit of balls!

orourkeda

OisinT wrote: »

I think it's just foreshadowing FF splitting into 2 parties.

I think the younger crowd of FFers want to distance themselves from the guys that really fúcked the place up. In fairness, it's not really fair to blame everyone in FF when some of them had no power or influence.

I'd still vote for a young FFer with good, progressive ideas and a bit of balls!

A Fianna Fail party member with an original idea? You are joking right?

FreudianSlippers

orourkeda wrote: »

A Fianna Fail party member with an original idea? You are joking right?

Nope. There's no reason that young party members aren't as disgusted with the party as everyone else.

F-Stop

OisinT wrote: »

I'd still vote for a young FFer with good, progressive ideas and a bit of balls!

Yeah, her name's Harney, and they were the PDs, and no, we don't need a fcuking repeat of that shiitfest, thanks all the same. Please baby jesus, let FF die once and for all.

policarp

In the "Tug Of War" I would say Brian Cowan is always going to win.

Awful_Bliss

As an anti FF person I'm loving all this carry on. After this debacle they still have a **** leader and now Michael Martin has joined the rest in resigning. Loving it!

orourkeda

OisinT wrote: »

Nope. There's no reason that young party members aren't as disgusted with the party as everyone else.

Then why run on a FF ticket if you are disgusted with the party. Or is it simply a matter of using their resources

SEPT 23 1989

OisinT wrote: »

Nope. There's no reason that young party members aren't as disgusted with the party as everyone else.

So why are they still members of that party who have caused so much destruction to the republic that they claim to want to represent?

FreudianSlippers

orourkeda wrote: »

Then why run on a FF ticket if you are disgusted with the party. Or is it simply a matter of using their resources

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

So why are they still members of that party who have caused so much destruction to the republic that they claim to want to represent?

I don't think they will be for long. The thing about FF is that they still have money (well access to money) and money is necessary to win campaigns.

orourkeda

F-Stop wrote: »

Yeah, her name's Harney, and they were the PDs, and no, we don't need a fcuking repeat of that shiitfest, thanks all the same. Please baby jesus, let FF die once and for all.

They are going to get skullf*cked at this election. Even at this talk of their demise may be somewhat premature. What happens at the election after that may provide a clearer picture as to what position they are really in.

orourkeda

OisinT wrote: »

I don't think they will be for long. The thing about FF is that they still have money (well access to money) and money is necessary to win campaigns.

But isn't it the ultimate hypocrisy to use a partys money to diss them. They are either FF or they are not.

ninebeanrows

I think it is a good publicity stunt, what have we hear and seen on the news for the last 5 days?

Fianna Fail propoganda and BS as if people actually care who their leader is. They just don't get it, they are still living in cloud cuckoo land.

And drilling it into the brains of the Irish populous that FF is important, all the aspects of the party set up are important to the Irish people blah blah blah, only adds the the notion of Fianna Fail as, 'The Party'.

And that is how it is in Ireland.

Don't let the polls fool you, fianna fail are still kicking out there, your friends may not have the gonads to tell you they will vote for them in the election, but look out for the quiet ones, there the ones who will secretly vote FF.

When it comes to it, old family party alignments rule.

I guarantee FF will get above 25% of the vote in the next GE.

We must not be foolish and think that FF are a thing of the past.

They are a scourge that will be so very hard to kill off.

FreudianSlippers

OisinT wrote: »

I think it's just foreshadowing FF splitting into 2 parties.

I think the younger crowd of FFers want to distance themselves from the guys that really fúcked the place up. In fairness, it's not really fair to blame everyone in FF when some of them had no power or influence.

I'd still vote for a young FFer with good, progressive ideas and a bit of balls!

The Herald is reporting that FF is breaking up into 2 parties. Called it :P

Capt'n Midnight

OisinT wrote: »

I think it's just foreshadowing FF splitting into 2 parties.

I think the younger crowd of FFers want to distance themselves from the guys that really fúcked the place up. In fairness, it's not really fair to blame everyone in FF when some of them had no power or influence.

I'd still vote for a young FFer with good, progressive ideas and a bit of balls!

Oh jebus - that's what the PD's were "High standards in high places" and look at their legacy, bike lanes that cars can use anytime, health system and justice system, free market and all that.

In the past people left FF and joined up again. Sometimes they were labelled as "independant FF" but provided you got re-elected you were always welcome back into the fold. ( this means that being expelled from the party has NO meaning)

fontanalis

OisinT wrote: »

Nope. There's no reason that young party members aren't as disgusted with the party as everyone else.

The older crowds antics (which the younger crowd didn't try to stop) will keep the younger crowd (gombeen to the core) out of power.
They're all a disease.

Capt'n Midnight

fontanalis wrote: »

The older crowds antics (which the younger crowd didn't try to stop) will keep the younger crowd (gombeen to the core) out of power.
They're all a disease.

Haughey survived the arms trial back in 1970. There have been lots of younger crowds since then and its just been business as usual.

To even suggest that a splinter group of FF could sort out the party is to ignore history and the rumours and the nepotisim and political apointees and consistent subsidisng of construction industry and developers - look at leaving Section 23 (investment properties / second homes) while reducing social welfare. Look at the recent tax changes where a self employed person on over €200 was actually paying less tax afterwards !!

Back in 1980 Haughey said "tighten our belts as we as a nation are living beyond our means" while still living the high life. The current crop could have said that back in 2008 and imposed the cuts back them, but instead it was business as usual, don't rock the boat and sure 'n all the EU will rescue us.

I can only conclude that they are worse than ever, I just hope that like Haughey they live to see their reputations in tatters, because we all know that none of those responsible will go to prison or suffer financially.

ejmaztec

OisinT wrote: »

Nope. There's no reason that young party members aren't as disgusted with the party as everyone else.

What's your definition of "young", and does this tool fall into the category?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dara_Calleary

HarryPotter41

ejmaztec wrote: »

What's your definition of "young", and does this tool fall into the category?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dara_Calleary

And you define him as a tool based on what?

Monty Burnz

orourkeda wrote: »

Who's buying it?

You don't hear anyone talking about the incredibly suspicious Cowen meetings and golf with Anglo bosses anymore, do you?

How much has the decision that Anglo was 'systemic' cost the state by now? I won't be surprised to see it reach €100,000,000,000 (a hundred billion).

bonerm

OisinT wrote: »

I'd still vote for a young FFer with good, progressive ideas and a bit of balls!

And so it begins .... again.

fontanalis

bonerm wrote: »

And so it begins .... again.

The Fail gets Failer.

pajor

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

And you define him as a tool based on what?

Because he seems to have been elected on the very Irish principal that his Da was a TD so he can be as well.

It's something we need to get rid of in this country

Monty Burnz

OisinT wrote: »

I'd still vote for a young FFer with good, progressive ideas and a bit of balls!

Why would you? Presumably becasue your parents voted FF, and their parents, since time immemorial?

That's not a good enough reason to vote for the corrupt gombeens who are only interested in lining their own pockets and those of the other Fianna Failures. They bankrupted the country ffs!!

fontanalis

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Why would you? Presumably becasue your parents voted FF, and their parents, since time immemorial?

That's not a good enough reason to vote for the corrupt gombeens who are only interested in lining their own pockets and those of the other Fianna Failures. They bankrupted the country ffs!!

Short of genocide it doesn't get worse than this, and there are still people out there willing to vote for them?????

HarryPotter41

pajor wrote: »

Because he seems to have been elected on the very Irish principal that his Da was a TD so he can be as well.

It's something we need to get rid of in this country

An assumption based totally on your view, not the reality of the situation. He got elected by virtue of a hard slog, has worked very hard since and has particularly worked hard ffor those with greatest needs in his area.

Capt'n Midnight

OisinT wrote: »

I'd still vote for a young FFer with good, progressive ideas and a bit of balls!

Why ?

When have FFers with good progressive ideas been able to influence party policy ??

How many of them have blown the whistle on corruption or have they always toed the party line.

How many of them have said anything recently about the country instead of about the future of the party ?


You can suggest anything you want when you know it will never be implemented.


I remind you of the old Myles na gCopleen phrase of people not doing something "before it was popular or profitable"

Monty Burnz

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

An assumption based totally on your view, not the reality of the situation. He got elected by virtue of a hard slog, has worked very hard since and has particularly worked hard ffor those with greatest needs in his area.

It's astonishing who many people in the Dail inherited their seats from the fathers or had parents who were TDs. Cowen, Coughlan and Brian (and Conor) Lenihan just for starters - the three top politicians in the country - the Taoiseach, the Tainaiste and the Minister for Finance.

Anyone know how many are in the Dail in total?

It's not healthy - politics should not be a family business. The voters are at least as much at fault.

Capt'n Midnight

OisinT wrote: »

I don't think they will be for long. The thing about FF is that they still have money (well access to money) and money is necessary to win campaigns.

The problem is that this money will cost a lot more than the 5% or 6% we are getting for the bail out

Galway tent money ??

they are incompetant , any third world dicatator would have billions stashed in an off shore account by now.

smellslikeshoes

OisinT wrote: »

I'd still vote for a young FFer with good, progressive ideas and a bit of balls!

I'm actually with you on this, the main problem is though none of the current young Fianna Fail actually had the balls to stand up and say hey wait a minute I don't agree with this crap. If any of them actually had a bit of balls they would have made their opposition to what the leaders of the party were doing known regardless of the consequences to their position in the party.

Monty Burnz

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

I'm actually with you on this

Can you please explain why, other than that your family is from the Fianna Failure tribe? What have you seen from FF in the last 20 years that would make you vote for them?

Was it their famously corrupt leader, CJ Haughey? Or their famously corrupt leader, Bertie Ahern? Or the famously incompetent (and possibly corrupt) Brian Cowen?

Was it the IMF coming in?

Was it the brilliant health service reforms?

All the brilliant initiatives the Fianna Failure introduced?

The high standard of politician in Fianna Failure?

Their high standard of ethics?

The number of them actually caught rather than just suspected of corruption?

Seriously, WHY??

ejmaztec

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

And you define him as a tool based on what?

His deluded performance when being interviewed by Miriam O'Callaghan on PrimeTime. He's an FF pre-programmed robot.

fontanalis

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Can you please explain why, other than that your family is from the Fianna Failure tribe? What have you seen from FF in the last 20 years that would make you vote for them?

Was it their famously corrupt leader, CJ Haughey? Or their famously corrupt leader, Bertie Ahern? Or the famously incompetent (and possibly corrupt) Brian Cowen?

Was it the IMF coming in?

Was it the brilliant health service reforms?

All the brilliant initiatives the Fianna Failure introduced?

The high standard of politician in Fianna Failure?

Their high standard of ethics?

The number of them actually caught rather than just suspected of corruption?

Seriously, WHY??

Probably the promise of 17% tax at the last election.

smellslikeshoes

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Can you please explain why, other than that your family is from the Fianna Failure tribe? What have you seen from FF in the last 20 years that would make you vote for them?

Was it their famously corrupt leader, CJ Haughey? Or their famously corrupt leader, Bertie Ahern? Or the famously incompetent (and possibly corrupt) Brian Cowen?

Was it the IMF coming in?

Was it the brilliant health service reforms?

All the brilliant initiatives the Fianna Failure introduced?

The high standard of politician in Fianna Failure?

Their high standard of ethics?

The number of them actually caught rather than just suspected of corruption?

Seriously, WHY??

Why don't you read the whole post instead of the first line? If you had you would release your silly little rant is not called for. And as for my family being from the Fianna fail tribe, laughable to be honest.

Monty Burnz

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Why don't you read the whole post instead of the first line? If you had you would release your silly little rant is not called for. And as for my family being from the Fianna fail tribe, laughable to be honest.

The lack of any actual argument from you tells me all I need tbh.

smellslikeshoes

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The lack of any actual argument from you tells me all I need tbh.

Are you just trolling? Look back through my posts if you want, I'm just about one of the most anti FFers on this forum

I think you completely misunderstood my original post.

Monty Burnz

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Are you just trolling? Look back through my posts if you want, I'm just about one of the most anti FFers on this forum

I think you completely misunderstood my original post.

Listen, I'm just basing my post on what you say in your post. I just don't know why you would vote for a young Fianna Failure candidate based on the history of what that organisation has done. If they totally change over the next 20 years, then in 20 years I would agree with you. But right now any young FFers have joined a party that's been led by the corrupt and the stupid for the last 30 years. On that basis alone, I'd have to rule them out.

Ali Babba

I'm in the process of getting some anti-Fianna Fail stickers made up along the lines of ......."Fianna Fail? Never again, lest we forget." And....!In the interest of your health and safety don't canvas this house for a vote".

Monty Burnz

Ali Babba wrote: »

I'm in the process of getting some anti-Fianna Fail stickers made up along the lines of ......."Fianna Fail? Never again, lest we forget." And....!In the interest of your health and safety don't canvas this house for a vote".

The real morons who will still canvas for Fianna Failure probably can't read newspapers and the like, so you may be wasting your time there.

FreudianSlippers

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Why would you? Presumably becasue your parents voted FF, and their parents, since time immemorial?

That's not a good enough reason to vote for the corrupt gombeens who are only interested in lining their own pockets and those of the other Fianna Failures. They bankrupted the country ffs!!

Nope. I vote based on the candidate, not the party. I'm not a moron like some people :rolleyes:

HarryPotter41

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's astonishing who many people in the Dail inherited their seats from the fathers or had parents who were TDs. Cowen, Coughlan and Brian (and Conor) Lenihan just for starters - the three top politicians in the country - the Taoiseach, the Tainaiste and the Minister for Finance.

Anyone know how many are in the Dail in total?

It's not healthy - politics should not be a family business. The voters are at least as much at fault.

A 15 year gap between Dara Calleary's father leaving the Dail and him entering was hardly an inheritance. He failed to get selected as one of four candidates for the county council in 2004 and only won selection at the convention for the last election by 6 votes, really smooth passage.

HarryPotter41

ejmaztec wrote: »

His deluded performance when being interviewed by Miriam O'Callaghan on PrimeTime. He's an FF pre-programmed robot.

I try never to make assumptions about people without ever holding a conversation with them. perhaps you should try the same.

Monty Burnz

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

I try never to make assumptions about people without ever holding a conversation with them. perhaps you should try the same.

That's going to make democracy in this country very tricky, with TDs having to converse with 50,000 constituents the whole time. The presidential election will be very tiring for everyone.

Or else we have to trust others to converse with the politicians on our behalf and base our opinions on that.

FreudianSlippers

Also can we stop saying that anyone "bankrupt" the country. It's a complete misuse of the word.

OisinT

OisinT wrote: »

Nope. I vote based on the candidate, not the party. I'm not a moron like some people :rolleyes:

That's precisely the attitude that got us into this mess. The "Ah sure isn't he grand didn't he fix the potholes" or "Didn't he go to Jim Bob O' Shea's funeral" vote.

It doesn't matter a damn what they do locally if they're running the country into the ground at a national level.

We elect T.D.s to the Dáil to vote on legislation, no T.D. will go against the party whip, therefore, when it comes down to it, what party they belong to matters more than whatever "favours" they can get done localy.

The sooner a list system is introduced the better, it seems so very hard to stop the people of Ireland from drinking at the parish pump.

Brenireland

Funny thing is some day's ago I was somewhat defending FF but was continually been cut down by people from Crok etc....no doubt these glory hunters will be giving full support to Martin from now on.

FreudianSlippers

Deleted User wrote: »

That's precisely the attitude that got us into this mess. The "Ah sure isn't he grand didn't he fix the potholes" or "Didn't he go to Jim Bob O' Shea's funeral" vote.

Firstly, I don't give half a fúck who went to the funeral of whom.

It doesn't matter a damn what they do locally if they're running the country into the ground at a national level.

Agreed to an extent. TDs that run to make a difference to their community are generally better candidates than those that run because their family is in politics and because they are a *insert party here*

We elect T.D.s to the Dáil to vote on legislation, no T.D. will go against the party whip, therefore, when it comes down to it, what party they belong to matters more than whatever "favours" they can get done localy.

Unfortunately I think you have the concept of what a TD does totally wrong.
TDs are elected to represent their constituency and to create legislation in specific areas. It's not about "favours", it's about the correct legislation being in place to create jobs, stimulate the local economy and maintain infrastructure in their area.

smellslikeshoes

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Listen, I'm just basing my post on what you say in your post. I just don't know why you would vote for a young Fianna Failure candidate based on the history of what that organisation has done. If they totally change over the next 20 years, then in 20 years I would agree with you. But right now any young FFers have joined a party that's been led by the corrupt and the stupid for the last 30 years. On that basis alone, I'd have to rule them out.

To make it clear my point was not that I would go blindly supporting Fianna Fail nua, it was that no current Fianna Fail young or old actually had the balls to stand up when it counted and disagree with the party's leadership.
Maybe future Fianna Fail candidates are going to be the same and be automatically corrupt and incompetent but I will base my decision on the individual candidate's merits and their ability to stand up when it counts and not just tow the party line.

It might just be my cynical view of Irish political parties as a whole but I firmly believe power corrupts and it might be the case in 13 years time we will want rid of FG/Labour just as much as we want rid of FF now.

And just to make it extra clear that I'm not from a family of the "Fianna Failure tribe" or a one of the Fianna Fail apologists who say they are all as bad as eachother, I want rid of every current FF TD bar none, they are corrupt and incompetent and have steered us full speed into the Iceberg.

HarryPotter41

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That's going to make democracy in this country very tricky, with TDs having to converse with 50,000 constituents the whole time. The presidential election will be very tiring for everyone.

Or else we have to trust others to converse with the politicians on our behalf and base our opinions on that.

Thats fine, but calling someone a tool is a totally different issue

bonerm

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

it might be the case in 13 years time we will want rid of FG/Labour just as much as we want rid of FF now.

13 years from now FG/Lab will have had their day in the sun and FF will be back in power unfortunately.