Krav Magna @ self-defence.ie

lil_stevie

Definitely check out Aidan and the Hard target school .

I train with them every week - great mix of KM and combatives .

2 classes a week - Thursday and friday .

We train inside , outside , in the dark , headgear on and off , various levels of aggression .Standup fighting and ground fighting .

All defences are put through pressure testing - for me this is the real education .

If you can defend yourself when your muscles are burning , your head is a mess , your heart is in your mouth and your attacker is coming at you hard then you know its good training .

smacl

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

As a 95kg lad i've had my ass handed to me on a few occasions by 60kg lads.

Skills make all the difference.

As I have myself (at about 85kg), but they were well trained guys with good skills and many many hours sparring against a wide range of opponents. I doubt it's going to work for most 60k lads with moderate skills and little experience against much heavier opponents, and I sure as hell wouldn't suggest they try it. Remember, you don't know what skills the other guy has either.

It's not about the possibility that they could win, more about the probability that they won't. From a self defense perspective, I think it is putting the person in the way of danger to make them believe they can win a fight where the odds are so heavily stacked against them. Sure, give it a go in the ring or on the mats, but not in an uncontrolled environment against an unknown enemy.

The Bored One

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

As a 95kg lad i've had my ass handed to me on a few occasions by 60kg lads.

Skills make all the difference.

Skills are as useful as what you do with them.
Longer any incident goes on higher the chances are that it will escalate or become something that you can't control or handle.
Size, strength, skill, experience etc are useful for creating an opening to get the hell out of there before that has a chance to happen.
Longer it goes on, less use those elements might be.

Khannie

MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »

As a 95kg lad i've had my ass handed to me on a few occasions by 60kg lads.

Skills make all the difference.

Add another 25KG to that and the skill differential is going to be even less of an issue. I have out-sparred 95KG lads. Sure. That's with several years experience. This guy is talking about 3 to 4 months though. Nonsense. 120KG guy wins 9 times out of 10. Best advice: Run away. No question about it.

Gumbi

Khannie wrote: »

Add another 25KG to that and the skill differential is going to be even less of an issue. I have out-sparred 95KG lads. Sure. That's with several years experience. This guy is talking about 3 to 4 months though. Nonsense. 120KG guy wins 9 times out of 10. Best advice: Run away. No question about it.

In a straight up fight, yes. But on the street, it can go a million and one different ways. I'm not saying that I disagree with you, though. However, a situation where the heavier guy grabs and/or threatens the smaller guy can possibly be ended by several fast and effective strikes. You still have the element of surprise on the street.

I do agree with you though that it's a bad idea for a 60-70kg person feeling confident that they can defend against a much heavier opponent after 4 months training. Maybe 2 years, but not 4 months.

Doug Cartel

Gumbi wrote: »

However, a situation where the heavier guy grabs and/or threatens the smaller guy can possibly be ended by several fast and effective strikes.

Who's doing the striking here, the bigger guy or the smaller guy?

Gumbi

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Who's doing the striking here, the bigger guy or the smaller guy?

Smaller guy, "defending" himself. I know I'm just picking an ideal situation, and that it doesn't and won't always play out like that, I am saying that it is possible, but only in a narrow band of (ideal) situations. Reading back, though, my first comment is kind of moot, as Khannie dressed it in saying "the bigger guy will win 9 times out of 10".

Niall Keane

The Chinese "internal" or "soft" martial arts have concerned themselves with this question of overcoming stronger more powerful opponents for centuries, and to an extent are successful, well in the "hand of a master" so to speak, Yang Lu Chan although slight and small became known as "Yang the Invincible" after defeating all in Beijing. Kinda like the Gracies did with BJJ, again a "soft" art.
When asked the secret another famous master "Sun Lu Tang" gave a single word response - "practice"
IMAs all practice daily "Nei Gung" sets to generate coordination and awareness within the body. The coordination allows for minimal exertion to have the greatest effect, te awareness teaches one the potential of themselves and their opponent. So effectively one is aware of where to attack for maximum effect and how to structure so as not to waste energy or rely on major muscle groups that would fold under a stronger heavier opponent.
Multiple opponents are trained for, but not like anything I've seen in modern "self defence" classes.
The guard is used to maintain or reduce create range to aid movement and evasion, there is always the idea of moving to line up the opposition so they block them selves, using them as a shield, this requires usually a move towards a single opponent, turning around him, on the other hand most "self defence" I've seen seems to take a "central" position and then deal with PRE-arranged attacks from different angles, ie commuting the error Sun Tzu would call "striving for contentious terrain".
All gran in theory, to be able to do this in the immediacy of combat where technique suffers under pressure requires hours of daily "realistic" and strategically sound practice. Programming the body awareness takes over an hour a day of Nei gung, I know Gracies use yoga. Same end result. Translating that awareness into a martially useful tool takes daily sparring, rolling what ever.
Imagining that one can aim a kick to the groin to one guy, turn and poke an eye of another etc. Is delusion. It's doing something about a situation rather than being in the situation, and therefore loses awareness. The classics would say - " we practice technique to acquire principal, once acquired we abandon technique" in other words fixating on "technique" is low level, and should be done to allow freedom, the freedom necessary to defend ones self. So once we can do basic techniques from a mechanical point of view it's time to add the resistance, the timing angle and range, ie it's time to spar heavily. IMA classics state "practice must be taken seriously" by that it means against full resistance and venomous partners, "you train as though an enemy is before you, so when there is an enemy, no one stands before you"
I feel this "seriousness" which exists in "ring sport" training is lacking in most "self defence" scenario based exercises, and so stagnates such to a low level single technique, broken awareness. Like the gods could be favourable and the situation playout like the bit of training in class, but that's kinda like winning the lotto?

ziodro

I read your posts guys but... I think the most of you didn't read my post properly.
We don't talk about sport fight. We talk about kind of SURVIVAL.
Let say we have a situation.
The group of attackers is surrounding a victim. All of them are armed.
This is not a chinese kung-fu film, it's reality so you CAN'T FLY.
But you have a hand bag with you, you have your mobile and home key in your packed. Don't hestitate to use it! (I won't talk about details)
YOUR TASK IS: CREATE THE WAY TO RUN!
You cant fight with all of them. You can use them as a shield(also I won't talk about details cos it would take all page to explain how it works)
Real krav maga training contains elements of using this everyday items in self-defence.
Real krav maga training contains stressful conditions training :
when is dark (somebody could simply break bulbs in room)
when defenders are outnumbered (we have 5 attackers, and only 2 defenders).(I won't talk about details cos it would take all page as well, I'll just tell that those 2 defenders have to cooperate)
Real krav maga training contains multiple attacks by group of armed and unarmed attackers ("tools" are covered for examole in a pocked) so there in no way of knowing what tool or what kind of attack is comming. Then You have to react instinctively.

There is a couple af krav maga shools in Ireland but the part of them is giving a very commerial training and shows a commrcial side of krav maga.
Training doesn't contain needed elements.
I was training with Krav Maga Group, and they have a lot of guys from another krav maga shools.They mostly say that previous training can't compare with this what they are doing in here. This is a fight for life. This is SURVIVAL.
If somebody is ready for hard work, not for a 2 day HOKUS POKUS course,
in this three four months will do a huge progress.

EnjoyChoke

The STREET is not some kind of sport! I agree you need to be trained PROPERLY to use WHATEVER IT TAKES to ensure YOUR SURVIVAL!

HellsAngel

Doug Cartel wrote: »

If you're going to train for self defence then I think eye-gouges etc are something you need to prepare for, but I don't think they're the game changers that some people make them out. They might tip the balance in a close fight but that's about it.

I also think they are something you should primarily be training to defend. I hear all these scenarios about small guys using the deadly to beat big guys, but they seem to forget that it cuts both ways. What about when the bad guy is trying to bite you?

I'm not actually against krav. Done right (eg stick to the basics, don't teach anything that won't be used) I think it should be pretty good, and a faster route to learning to defend yourself than a lot of other options. What gets me is when it gets sold as an almost instant route to success. You know like "I did this short course and now I can defend myself."

Good points Doug. I think what gets everyone is the way it's sold. I'm sure it has it's good points and if people get a buzz training at it good luck to them. But it's dangerous to tell people that they can defend themselves against multiple attackers, guys twice your size etc in a few months with quick, easy lessons.

ziodro

smacl wrote: »

I doubt it's going to work for most 60k lads with moderate skills and little experience against much heavier opponents, and I sure as hell wouldn't suggest they try it. Remember, you don't know what skills the other guy has either.

Well... so just give up, sit and cry or better commit a suicide, that is better than get killed by attackers, beacuse it was to many of them...well done!

Someone was advising escape. Good! But... the same reasons...maybe is not worth it all? I will get tired before I will get killed... Anyway attackers are younger and faster... I have no chance to run... I give up! Once again...well done.

EnjoyChoke

ziodro wrote: »

Well... so just give up, sit and cry or better commit a suicide, that is better than get killed, beacuse is was to many of them...well done!

Well said...it's about SURVIVAL!!!!

cowzerp

I never read anywhere him saying give up!
I think the point is go and train in an efficient art such as boxing/Thai and then you have a more realistic fighting chance of getting out, and not for just 4 months, ps how many says training a week do you do in this 4 month course?

arybvtcw0eolkf

ziodro wrote: »

Well... so just give up, sit and cry or better commit a suicide, that is better than get killed by attackers, beacuse it was to many of them...well done!
.

I'm guessing English isn't your first language, so I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt that you actually suggested here that someone goes and commits suicide.

Do you wish to withdraw that remark?.

ziodro

No, english is not my first language.

Above somebody was advicing or suggesting(in short cut): don't do anything when you are under attack if you are not well trained.
So in sarcastic way: just make it easier for attackers and kill yoursef before they will kill you.

In the real street violence and fight is more problems than just kicking and punching.
Does Boxing or ThaiB is giving you a skills how to deal with a knife, or broken bottle, or what to do if your hands are locked by another attacker?

I don't want to waste my breath but I will tell a short story. Beacuse of legal consequeces I don't want to tell who was it and when it happend.

KM student is travelling by Luas. Group of attackers is getting in to the train.
They are getting in and they are staritng to terrorize people. One of them is keeping metal, sharp pipe. They are pushing everybody by using this metal pipe, provoking to fight. Nobody react.Very well. They didn't beat anybody yet.They are just provoking. Then unfortunately or... fortunately, huge man about 8,5ft (hands like a shovels) is saying "gays what the hell are you doing?"
They were just waiting for that kind of reaction: group is surrounding potencial victim. They are pushing him, slapping his face, stabbing by metal pipe.Than he gently push away one of them.Other in making a space for "pipeman" , hand already rised like he is going to smash his head. Then KM student reacted. Surrprice from behind!He's grapping forehand and the head of the attacker. "Cut" to the knee from behind takes attacker down.
On the ground attacker gets quick kick to the head.Pipe is in the hand of Km student.Other attacker gets elbow strik.And anothers attackers are..freezed. Km student is asking "Anybody else?". There is nobody else.
So f... up form here! And.. thay are goin away.
The man 8,5ft said "thanks" and he said that in fairnes he was to paralised to do anything.

What we have in here: kick boxing skills-yes, thaiB-yes, take down-yes, determination to don't let attacker stand up again-yes, psyhological action to terrorize attackers-yes.

Like Km student said: actually... I'm a coward. Most of my life I was beaten by others. I didn't plan that I'll do anything for this guy. I just reacted.
1 REACTION, 2 ISTINCT, 3 SKILLS.

He was training 5 months (aprox 70kg)

EnjoyChoke

ziodro wrote: »

No, english is not my first language.

Above somebody was advicing or suggesting(in short cut): don't do anything when you are under attack if you are not well trained.
So in sarcastic way: just make it easier for attackers and kill yoursef before they will kill you.

In the real street violence and fight is more problems than just kicking and punching.
Does Boxing or ThaiB is giving you a skills how to deal with a knife, or broken bottle, or what to do if your hands are locked by another attacker?

I don't want to waste by breath but I will tell a short story. Beacuse of legal consequeces I don't want to tell who was it and when it happend.

KM student is travelling by Luas. Group of attackers is getting in to the train.
They are getting in and they are staritng to terrorize people. One of them is keeping metal, sharp pipe. They are pushing everybody by using this metal pipe, provoking to fight. Nobody react.Very well. They didn't beat anybody yet.They are just provoking. Then unfortunately or... fortunately, huge man about 8,5ft (hands like a shovels) is saying "gays what the hell are you doing?"
They were just waiting for that kind of reaction: group is surrounding potencial victim. They are pushing him, slapping his face, stabbing by metal pipe.Than he gently push away one of them.Other in making a space for "pipeman" , hand already rised like he is going to smash his head. Then KM student reacted. Surrprice from behind!He's grapping forehand and the head of the attacker. "Cut" to the knee from behind takes attacker down.
On the ground attacker gets quick kick to the head.Pipe is in the hand of Km student.Other attacker gets elbow strik.And anothers attackers are..freezed. Km student is asking "Anybody else?". There is nobody else.
So f... up form here! And.. thay are goin away.
The man 8,5ft said "thanks" and he said that in fairnes he was to paralised to do anything.

What we have in here: kick boxing skills-yes, thaiB-yes, take down-yes, determination to don't let attacker stand up again-yes, psyhological action to terrorize attackers-yes.

Like Km student said: actually... I'm a coward. Most of my life I was beaten by others. I didn't plan that I'll do anything for this guy. I just reacted.
1 REACTION, 2 ISTINCT, 3 SKILLS.

He was training 5 months (aprox 70kg)

For real, seen it in the news. Go Krav Maga!

Remmy

ziodro wrote: »

No, english is not my first language.

Above somebody was advicing or suggesting(in short cut): don't do anything when you are under attack if you are not well trained.
So in sarcastic way: just make it easier for attackers and kill yoursef before they will kill you.

In the real street violence and fight is more problems than just kicking and punching.
Does Boxing or ThaiB is giving you a skills how to deal with a knife, or broken bottle, or what to do if your hands are locked by another attacker?

I don't want to waste by breath but I will tell a short story. Beacuse of legal consequeces I don't want to tell who was it and when it happend.

KM student is travelling by Luas. Group of attackers is getting in to the train.
They are getting in and they are staritng to terrorize people. One of them is keeping metal, sharp pipe. They are pushing everybody by using this metal pipe, provoking to fight. Nobody react.Very well. They didn't beat anybody yet.They are just provoking. Then unfortunately or... fortunately, huge man about 8,5ft (hands like a shovels) is saying "gays what the hell are you doing?"
They were just waiting for that kind of reaction: group is surrounding potencial victim. They are pushing him, slapping his face, stabbing by metal pipe.Than he gently push away one of them.Other in making a space for "pipeman" , hand already rised like he is going to smash his head. Then KM student reacted. Surrprice from behind!He's grapping forehand and the head of the attacker. "Cut" to the knee from behind takes attacker down.
On the ground attacker gets quick kick to the head.Pipe is in the hand of Km student.Other attacker gets elbow strik.And anothers attackers are..freezed. Km student is asking "Anybody else?". There is nobody else.
So f... up form here! And.. thay are goin away.
The man 8,5ft said "thanks" and he said that in fairnes he was to paralised to do anything.

What we have in here: kick boxing skills-yes, thaiB-yes, take down-yes, determination to don't let attacker stand up again-yes, psyhological action to terrorize attackers-yes.

Like Km student said: actually... I'm a coward. Most of my life I was beaten by others. I didn't plan that I'll do anything for this guy. I just reacted.
1 REACTION, 2 ISTINCT, 3 SKILLS.

He was training 5 months (aprox 70kg)

Ok so this km guy who was only training for 5 months and who was 70kg thought it was prudent to defend a 8,5ft man(:pac:) against a group of thugs armed with pipes?

What legal shi#storm would the km guy face after going up behind someone who isnt directly threatening him or their family ,sending that person to the ground and then kicking them in the head when they were on the ground?

Dont even start with that better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 crap.This is complete walter mitty bs.

Gumbi

Remmy wrote: »

Ok so this km guy who was only training for 5 months and who was 70kg thought it was prudent to defend a 8,5ft man(:pac:) against a group of thugs armed with pipes?

What legal shi#storm would the km guy face after going up behind someone who isnt directly threatening him or their family ,sending that person to the ground and then kicking them in the head when they were on the ground?

Dont even start with that better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 crap.This is complete walter mitty bs.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, I think the so-called "KM student" is fine legally. 6 guys, threatening, wielding a weapon, terrorising the passengers, on the verge of assaulting one of them, with many witnesses to back this story up. Also, factor in their previous criminal records (the last one isn't a serious point, but it's a large possibility). I also think that in such a situation, you can't be thinking about what is legal or what is not (within reason), but only for your own safety.

smacl

ziodro wrote: »

Well... so just give up, sit and cry or better commit a suicide, that is better than get killed by attackers, beacuse it was to many of them...well done!

Not sure what part of the world you're living in, but most scuffles in around Ireland don't end up in people getting killed violently. Making a quick buck by engendering a fear and paranoia of the hell that awaits anyone who wanders a few hundred yards from the safety of their front door is a pretty miserable way to make a living. One thing that will get you into a fight however is treating everyone you don't know or don't like the look of as a probable scumbag / mugger and murderer. I've lived 45 years in Dublin, including some rough enough areas, and avoided getting into any serious altercations. The odd thump and plenty of verbals for sure, but nothing I couldn't walk away from. Most important part of self defense for me is not getting into fights (doh). Believe or not, most folks out there are ok, and won't give you any grief if you don't go looking for it. IMO, harbouring an 'Us and Them' mentality, where they're all out to get you, is a lousy way to live your life.

Someone was advising escape. Good! But... the same reasons...maybe is not worth it all? I will get tired before I will get killed... Anyway attackers are younger and faster... I have no chance to run... I give up! Once again...well done.

I think I saw that movie. Was Arnie in it?

How many times exactly have you had a group of armed thugs try to kill you out there on the streets in Ireland? And how precisely did your KM serve you on those occasions?

Niall Keane

A few months ago I mentioned this on another thread, my wife had an altercation with a handbag snatcher outside the abbey theatre, he cornered her. As he Passed and grabbed her bag, his force was coming forward, she stepped back and sunk down dragging him over her centre and throwing him to the ground. A principal guided response, evident in the orthodox tai chi technique "step back and strike the tiger".
She used the principal "if he grab me (her bag) I do not need to grab him" so his "technique" was used against him, in a soft effortless manner appropriate for an out weighed person.
Now let's look at this? He ended up "surprised" having his "initiative" used against him, he took a fall an in doing so she gained range, classic Nei Jia application. That allowed her to run and seek help. ( she did land a soccer kick on the downed opponent, but I guess you can totally quell the Celtic spirit? :-)
Now suppose she had "gouged his eyes" or kneed him in the groin, well to do so she would have neede to more or less line up with him and situate in the appropriate range, a very short range, which would in my opinion have led to a retaliation from the thief, his ego would be wounded and the conflict woul have escalated, and she is not a fighter and no way would be able to cope with a heavy strike from a guy. Ie it would have been a disaster! Thing is when I see videos of "self defence" it is exactly these "conflict escalating" techniques that are sold to women as cure Alls!
See every full contact fighter knows what it feels like to get hit, hell we treat it as annoying much the same as being caught in the rain. We KNOW how difficult it is to "hit the mark" on a resisting opponent, and we also KNOW that when an opponent fails in his attack it inspires us, gives us confidence and releases a venom to punish him for trying. We are not to dissimilar to the "thugs" out there on "da stretz" in that respect.
We also remember the different levels of skill we gained along the way, from single technique inadequacy to easeful fluency.
Yet despite all the opinions of highly experienced fighters out there, there will always be those willin to believe in and pay for an easily learned magic spell that can defeat any aggressor. It's lazy! It's delusional! It's dangerous!

HellsAngel

ziodro wrote: »

No, english is not my first language........KM student is travelling by Luas. Group of attackers is getting in to the train.
They are getting in and they are staritng to terrorize people. One of them is keeping metal, sharp pipe. They are pushing everybody by using this metal pipe, provoking to fight. Nobody react.Very well. They didn't beat anybody yet.They are just provoking. Then unfortunately or... fortunately, huge man about 8,5ft (hands like a shovels) is saying "gays what the hell are you doing?"

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

For real, seen it in the news. Go Krav Maga!

ziodro & EnjoyChoke. Probably the same clown.

HellsAngel

Niall Keane wrote: »

A few months ago I mentioned this on another thread, my wife had an altercation with a handbag snatcher outside the abbey theatre, he cornered her. As he Passed and grabbed her bag, his force was coming forward, she stepped back and sunk down dragging him over her centre and throwing him to the ground. A principal guided response, evident in the orthodox tai chi technique "step back and strike the tiger".
She used the principal "if he grab me (her bag) I do not need to grab him" so his "technique" was used against him, in a soft effortless manner appropriate for an out weighed person.
Now let's look at this? He ended up "surprised" having his "initiative" used against him, he took a fall an in doing so she gained range, classic Nei Jia application. That allowed her to run and seek help. ( she did land a soccer kick on the downed opponent, but I guess you can totally quell the Celtic spirit? :-)
Now suppose she had "gouged his eyes" or kneed him in the groin, well to do so she would have neede to more or less line up with him and situate in the appropriate range, a very short range, which would in my opinion have led to a retaliation from the thief, his ego would be wounded and the conflict woul have escalated, and she is not a fighter and no way would be able to cope with a heavy strike from a guy. Ie it would have been a disaster! Thing is when I see videos of "self defence" it is exactly these "conflict escalating" techniques that are sold to women as cure Alls!
See every full contact fighter knows what it feels like to get hit, hell we treat it as annoying much the same as being caught in the rain. We KNOW how difficult it is to "hit the mark" on a resisting opponent, and we also KNOW that when an opponent fails in his attack it inspires us, gives us confidence and releases a venom to punish him for trying. We are not to dissimilar to the "thugs" out there on "da stretz" in that respect.
We also remember the different levels of skill we gained along the way, from single technique inadequacy to easeful fluency.
Yet despite all the opinions of highly experienced fighters out there, there will always be those willin to believe in and pay for an easily learned magic spell that can defeat any aggressor. It's lazy! It's delusional! It's dangerous!

I'm afraid so. But as the old saying goes, a fool and his money are easy parted.

ziodro

By the way. Do you train that kind of situation on your Kepo, kung fu, kick boxing, thayB trainings?
Panic and chaos?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mXC6mVpxLI

EnjoyChoke

HellsAngel wrote: »

ziodro & EnjoyChoke. Probably the same clown.

Got me.

Khannie

HellsAngel wrote: »

ziodro & EnjoyChoke. Probably the same clown.

Definitely not the same person. No more back seat modding please.