War of Independence 'landmarks'.

Victor

MichaelHeslin wrote: »

The Michael Collins quote has a load of funny characters in my browser but am I right in thinking it says that the An Stad is at No 20? If so, it appears to be here (hope the link works) between a pub and video shop: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=20+North+Frederick+Street,+Dublin,+Ireland&aq=&sll=53.355802,-6.264932&sspn=0.007044,0.01929&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=20+Frederick+St+N,+Dublin+1,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&ll=53.355815,-6.264932&spn=0.006993,0.01929&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.355899,-6.265014&panoid=vC-VJjcVuuiupa56ygy_NA&cbp=12,219.96,,0,11.8

It seems to be referred to variously as no. 20, no. 30 and no. 43. However, it isn't a very big street and there are only 1-2 derelict properties, so it should be easy to tie down.

http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4282
http://derelictdublin.blogspot.com/2007/12/43-north-frederick-street-dublin-1.html
http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=448&p=63068#p63433

Based on the photos in the last link and vague recollection, no. 30 is the most plausible.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=sws94vggb497&lvl=18.802479412258855&dir=176.22958277902885&sty=b

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715529,735295,7

Dublin_Gunner

Its definitely number 30 as I stated. The bracket for holdijg the an stad sign is still beside the door.

In the Blog I linked to you can still see the sign, and notice the blinds in the building next door.

On street view it now has corrigated metal covering the main door, the sign is gone but the bracket is still there, and the same blinds in the window next door

MichaelHeslin

I just saw the comment about the sign in your link. This is all getting more and more fascinating and I'm thinking that this is probably 'McCarthy's hotel'. I'm sure something will turn up to confirm this without any doubt.

Esel

I don't think An Stad is the hotel the OP is asking about. It was a B&B, not a hotel, and was used by many IRA members for many decades after the Rising. Also, it's well away from Broadstone.

There was a hotel, called The Leix Hotel, on Dominic St (the Broadstone end) which was a regular IRA gathering place in the thirties at least. I would not be surprised if it turned out to have been previously McCarthy's.

Dublin_Gunner

Esel wrote: »

I don't think An Stad is the hotel the OP is asking about. It was a B&B, not a hotel, and was used by many IRA members for many decades after the Rising. Also, it's well away from Broadstone.

There was a hotel, called The Leix Hotel, on Dominic St (the Broadstone end) which was a regular IRA gathering place in the thirties at least. I would not be surprised if it turned out to have been previously McCarthy's.

?? North Frederick Street is only about a 10 minute walk from the old broadstone station, and is no further away than Dominick Street tbh.

Definitely open to suggestions, but as 'An Stad' was owned by a McCarthy family, and is noted as being a safe house used by Collins etc during the time of the rising / civil war - so I think its a fair assumption.

Also, please note the reference to 'hotel' was made in the OP's witness statement. So really could mean hotel / guesthouse / B&B / hostel etc

I'll check out the Leix Hotel also - as we'd like to definitely source this for the OP.

Dublin_Gunner

After a quick check on the 1911 census, there are 2 McCarthy family's listed as living in Dominick Street, at 37.2 and 11.3 Dominick Street. Neither family's members listed as owning hotels. They were coach builders in one family, and the others were labourers and scholars.

Saying that, the McCarthy's who did own the 'An Stad' hotel / B&B are not listed in the 1911 census either - but the Hotel was definitely owned by a McCarthy family later on.

Victor

Esel wrote: »

I don't think An Stad is the hotel the OP is asking about. It was a B&B

I think it needs to be taken in context. For someone coming from Longford in that era, there would have been little difference between a hotel and a B&B. Put it in the context of the Greville Arms (owned by Kitty Kiernan) where Collins stayed in Longford. http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/Collins%20Haunts/Collins_Haunts/Greville%20Arms.html

Also, it's well away from Broadstone.

Not all that far. http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Western+Way%2FN2&daddr=Frederick+St+N&hl=en&geocode=FcgfLgMd7Eag_w%3BFT8jLgMdqWmg_w&mra=dme&mrcr=0&mrsp=0&sz=16&dirflg=w&sll=53.354842,-6.268322&sspn=0.003688,0.017166&ie=UTF8&ll=53.354842,-6.264224&spn=0.003688,0.008991&z=16

Dublin_Gunner

Victor wrote: »

Not all that far. http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Western+Way%2FN2&daddr=Frederick+St+N&hl=en&geocode=FcgfLgMd7Eag_w%3BFT8jLgMdqWmg_w&mra=dme&mrcr=0&mrsp=0&sz=16&dirflg=w&sll=53.354842,-6.268322&sspn=0.003688,0.017166&ie=UTF8&ll=53.354842,-6.264224&spn=0.003688,0.008991&z=16

Just as far as Lower Dominick Street TBH.

Which, back in the times when people weren't as lazy, a 10 minute walk could easily be deemed to be 'near by'.

twowheelsonly

Most likely also that locals and/or IRA would have called it 'McCarthys' rather than use it's full name of 'An Stad'.
That is to say that if the authorites heard that such and such was staying in 'An Stad' they knew exactly where to go. McCarthys on the other hand could be one of 20 different places.
My grandmother used to regularly reference places by their 'localised' names rather than the official name of the same era.

david75

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Most likely also that locals and/or IRA would have called it 'McCarthys' rather than use it's full name of 'An Stad'.
That is to say that if the authorites heard that such and such was staying in 'An Stad' they knew exactly where to go. McCarthys on the other hand could be one of 20 different places.
My grandmother used to regularly reference places by their 'localised' names rather than the official name of the same era.

Agree with that completely. This happens daily everywhere in Dublin and around the country.

Fascinating stuff here folks. Well played all of you.

MichaelHeslin

This is all great stuff and thanks for the contributions so far. I'm tending towards An Stad as the likeliest 'McCarthy's hotel' mentioned in my grandad's statement. Nothing is set in stone yet so feel free to keep the theories coming

Despite the fact that I've never set a foot in Dublin (Longford only when I was small), I'm getting a real sense of local history thanks to you guys. And thanks to Google Street View I think that if I get out there this summer, I'll already know the streets of Dublin like the back of my hand!

Esel

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

?? North Frederick Street is only about a 10 minute walk from the old broadstone station, and is no further away than Dominick Street tbh.

I don't want to derail this thread, but the Leix Hotel I mentioned was effectively in Broadstone. That fact, and its IRA connections, was why I mentioned it in the first place....

Also, for the OP - I think that Broadstone was an active train station then, so it is possible/probable that there were a number of hotels in the immediate vicinity. As someone said earlier, see if you can find out anything from the Thom's directories of the period.

Dublin_Gunner

Esel wrote: »

I don't want to derail this thread, but the Leix Hotel I mentioned was effectively in Broadstone. That fact, and its IRA connections, was why I mentioned it in the first place....

Also, for the OP - I think that Broadstone was an active train station then, so it is possible/probable that there were a number of hotels in the immediate vicinity. As someone said earlier, see if you can find out anything from the Thom's directories of the period.

Well North Fredercik Street is really no further away than Dominick street. I'm not saying An Stad is definitely the 'hotel' but the Leix is only one of many hotels / guesthouses in the area, and we have seen absolutely NO connections to the name McCarthy thus far. And nowhere in the statement does it state the 'hotel' was in the broadstone area, merey that it was not that far away. 10 minutes walk is not that far away.

If you can find a 'McCarthy' that owned the hotel around 1920, you may have a candidate. Until then, its not really a runner IMO. Accurate history is based upon fact, innacurate history is based upon assumption.

Saying that, all in all I think everyones contributions have been great so far, and the more information we can dig up for the OP the better.

Already we can build up quite a picture of the OP's grandfather, and his travels as detailed in his statement.

MichaelHeslin

Thanks once more folks. Methinks if I get out there this summer, I'm honour-bound to buy a few pints!
Broadstone was certainly a working train station then. Elsewhere in the statement there are accounts of some hair-raising events involving the station. I won't be able to upload this info as some relatives aren't happy about my uploading his statement so I'll respect their feelings.
I think my nest step is trying to find the old Thoms directories online.
Ciao for now!

Esel

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Well North Fredercik Street is really no further away than Dominick street.

You do know that Dominic St runs from Parnell St all the way to Western Way? The Leix Hotel was at the Western Way end of this street, about 200 yards from Broadstone. The statement says the hotel was near Broadstone, not that is was 'was not that far away'. The Leix Hotel was definitely frequented by IRA members in the '30s at least. 'An Stad' was a regular billet for many decades. All of the above is 'accurate history', not assumption, to the best of my knowledge.

If it was in fact 'An Stad', would the testator really have described it as 'near Broadstone'? There are other major landmarks right by 'An Stad' - Parnell Square (if so called then), Findlater's Church, Parnell's Statue, The Rotunda Hospital, O'Connell St (Sackville St then) etc. Referring to any of them would be much more logical in those circumstances, tbh.

Nothing I have posted is based on assumption. I have no interest in proving/disproving either candidate location, and will not have any problem if the Leix Hotel turns out to be a red herring. My only interest is in giving the OP the benefit of what knowledge I have to aid in his research.

Dublin_Gunner

Esel wrote: »

You do know that Dominic St runs from Parnell St all the way to Western Way? The Leix Hotel was at the Western Way end of this street, about 200 yards from Broadstone. The statement says the hotel was near Broadstone, not that is was 'was not that far away'. The Leix Hotel was definitely frequented by IRA members in the '30s at least. 'An Stad' was a regular billet for many decades. All of the above is 'accurate history', not assumption, to the best of my knowledge.

If it was in fact 'An Stad', would the testator really have described it as 'near Broadstone'? There are other major landmarks right by 'An Stad' - Parnell Square (if so called then), Findlater's Church, Parnell's Statue, The Rotunda Hospital, O'Connell St (Sackville St then) etc. Referring to any of them would be much more logical in those circumstances, tbh.

Nothing I have posted is based on assumption. I have no interest in proving/disproving either candidate location, and will not have any problem if the Leix Hotel turns out to be a red herring. My only interest is in giving the OP the benefit of what knowledge I have to aid in his research.

Yes, living in Dublin my entire life, I'm well aware of where the street runs.

I'm not arguing with you, great there was a hotel called Leix on Dominick STreet frequented by the IRA inthe 30's.

1. You're in the wrong era.
2. You have given not even a scrap of evidence that this hotel may be known as 'McCarthy's'.
3. Point 2 indicates you are indeed workign on assumption.

Now, evidence for 'An Stad'.

1. On North Frederick street - which is 'near' broadstone (10min walk)
2. Owned by a Maureen McCarthy.
3. Known safe house for Collins etc during the civil war.
4. Not based on assumption.

Taking these two sets of evidence into account, I think its fairly easy to see which is the prime candidate.

Now its great you spent some of your time trying to prove me wrong for whatever reason, and great, you found some evidence of a hotel frquented by IRA members in the thirties.

But really, that bares no meaningful relationship to the story of the OP's grandfathers time in Dublin in the early 20's.

Oh, and for your information, 'near' and 'not that far away' mean relatively the same thing. You're being pedantic. Plus, we have not seen the actual quote in relation to the hotel, only what the OP posted in the original post.

And in relation to your 'near' statement and the testator maybe using someother landmark as reference - the OP's grandfather was not from Dublin, so therefore may well have been indicating its distance form a well known landmark in every city - a train station.

Now, can we get back to trying to actually help the OP find the information he is looking for?

MichaelHeslin

There seems to be a passion for history here which I think is wonderful in this throw-away day-and-age and I appreciate all contributions which help to unearth old Dublin and what it was during Mick's connection with the city during turbulent times.
While looking for safe-houses I came across this and wonder if you think the Sinn Fein bookshop might be a potentially good port of call for my enquiries? I realise that anything aimed at the tourist market can be dodgy in it's historical accuracy wherever in the world it is, of course!:
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2008/jul/27/sinn-feins-rebel-dublin-a-walking-tour-with-a-diff/

Esel

Michael, I hope your quest bears fruit. As I am sure you know, many books have been published on this chapter of Irish history. I am not qualified to refer you to any particular publication. However, Tim Pat Coogan, a renowned and very well-respected writer on the subject matter, is still alive as of this date. You should try to contact him on this matter. I am sure (given his fame) that you could find out how to get in touch with him. He is/was published by Random House, so this would be a starting point (almittedly a poor one). You would probalby reach him quicker by writing to him at the following address (this is a small country, and he is famous here!) :

Mr Tim Pat Coogan,
c/o GPO,
Dublin,
Ireland.

______________________________________________________________________


DG: Pedantic, moi? I've been called worse, but I am not often insulted, as I usually know what particular words mean. On Craggy Island, there may not be much difference, in "Father Ted" speak, between 'near' and '(not so) far away'. In the real world, however, the terms do differ.

As I stated in my previous post, I have no interest in proving/disproving either candidate location, and will not have any problem if the Leix Hotel turns out to be a red herring. I don't really care whether 'An Stad' turns out to be the location of the premises in question or not. In fact, I hope it does. Your numbered 'logic' is flawed, by the way. I do not intend to post further in this thread, unless it it to acknowledge that you have been proven to be correct, or to reply to the OP. Feel free to have the last word anyway.

______________________________________________________________________ = Bigger line under.....

Esel

Munster Private Hotel (aka Aras na nGael aka Grianán na nGaedheal)
44 Mountjoy St

Owner Myra T McCarthy (usually referred to as 'Miss McCarthy' in related literature)

Source:

Dublin in Rebellion a Directory 1913-1923
Author Joseph EA Connell Jnr
The Lilliput Press, Dublin first published 2006 revised edition 2009
ISBN 978 1 84351 137 3

The entry for this address states that Collins used this hotel regularly, until it became too 'hot' a few years after the rising. Mountjoy St is indeed near to Broadstone - it starts at the other end of Western Way, beside the Black Church.


Tim Pat Coogan, in his book 'Michael Collins' refers to Collins's "...lodgings at Miss McCarthy's, 44 Mountjoy St.,....". Coogan does not refer to it as a hotel, though.

MichaelHeslin

That's an amazing find Esel. The Collins/McCarthy references make this a heavyweight contender! I will now spend a huge amount of time researching this place to the annoyance of my nearest and dearest!

MichaelHeslin

I just noticed that I failed to mention another Dublin reference in the statement! To cover his visits to Dublin to meet Collins and co, Mick feigned eye problems, sometimes wearing an eye shade and pretended he was visiting a doctor: "I covered this up at the other end with my friend J.J. McEvoy, then a medical student, who made my appointments with a Dr. Joyce. This completed my scheme to defeat any attempt by the British for a check-up on my movements. McEvoy resided in digs in Eccles Street, Dublin".

MichaelHeslin

Esel wrote: »

Munster Private Hotel (aka Aras na nGael aka Grianán na nGaedheal)
44 Mountjoy St

Owner Myra T McCarthy (usually referred to as 'Miss McCarthy' in related literature)

Source:

Dublin in Rebellion a Directory 1913-1923
Author Joseph EA Connell Jnr
The Lilliput Press, Dublin first published 2006 revised edition 2009
ISBN 978 1 84351 137 3

The entry for this address states that Collins used this hotel regularly, until it became too 'hot' a few years after the rising. Mountjoy St is indeed near to Broadstone - it starts at the other end of Western Way, beside the Black Church.


Tim Pat Coogan, in his book 'Michael Collins' refers to Collins's "...lodgings at Miss McCarthy's, 44 Mountjoy St.,....". Coogan does not refer to it as a hotel, though.

There are several mentions of this building and Collins online, one being this:
http://www.iol.ie/~seanhly/english/spies.html
And apparently Ms. McCarthy was the aunt of Fionán Lynch (tho' I realise Wikipedia is notoriously unreliable!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fion%C3%A1n_Lynch

Esel

I notice that the Wikipedia gives the address incorrectly as 44 Mounjoy Square. I presume this is an error, given the two references I gave above to 44 Mounjoy Street. It also calls her 'Myna', rather than 'Myra'.

The reference to Miss McCarthy in Tim Pat Coogan's book (seems to be in late 1919) relates to an Irishman, H. Quinlisk, an ex-corporal in the Royal Irish Rangers who, as a German prisoner of war, had enrolled in Casement's Irish Brigade. On his return to Ireland, he was given assistance by Sinn Fein, 'and from Collins who gave him money, bought him a new suit and got him a place in his lodgings at Miss McCarthy's, 44 Mountjoy St, which by then he generally only used to keep his clothes in.'

Apparently, Quinlisk turned out to be an informer, and was later shot dead in Cork after being fed false information by Collins that he (Collins) would be in Wren's Hotel. Quinlisk went to the hotel in Cork to be at hand for the planned RIC raid and collect the £10,000 reward. Instead, he was picked up by local IRA men and he was found dead in a ditch on February 18th 1920.

MichaelHeslin

More fascinating information again. Thanks for that. I also bumped into this site that covers a variety of Collin's safe houses including 44, Mount Street (a typo - the link leads to 44 Mountjoy St). The Ballinamuck link contains a police report about an up-and-coming Sinn Fein meeting which I mentioned earlier in this thread where my great uncle and Collins were speakers coincidentally:
http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/Collins%20Haunts/Collins_Haunts%28s.%29/Safe_Houses%28s%29.html

david75

Esel wrote: »

I notice that the Wikipedia gives the address incorrectly as 44 Mounjoy Square. I presume this is an error, given the two references I gave above to 44 Mounjoy Street. It also calls her 'Myna', rather than 'Myra'.

The reference to Miss McCarthy in Tim Pat Coogan's book (seems to be in late 1919) relates to an Irishman, H. Quinlisk, an ex-corporal in the Royal Irish Rangers who, as a German prisoner of war, had enrolled in Casement's Irish Brigade. On his return to Ireland, he was given assistance by Sinn Fein, 'and from Collins who gave him money, bought him a new suit and got him a place in his lodgings at Miss McCarthy's, 44 Mountjoy St, which by then he generally only used to keep his clothes in.'

Apparently, Quinlisk turned out to be an informer, and was later shot dead in Cork after being fed false information by Collins that he (Collins) would be in Wren's Hotel. Quinlisk went to the hotel in Cork to be at hand for the planned RIC raid and collect the £10,000 reward. Instead, he was picked up by local IRA men and he was found dead in a ditch on February 18th 1920.

Oh my god!! the guy who either carried this assassination out, or knew about it(cant remember) speaks about it in this incredible documentary called 'a curious journey'. It's a documentary made in 1973 speaking to survivng participants of 1916 and the subsequent years. it's a fascinating watch OP..you should watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6diBvajpmk

Dyr

Hold on..An Stad? Was that not the name of an absolute sh**hole looking B&B or hostel on Frederick street. It gone now I think but it was there for years. Cracked windows, ancient ripped curtains etc. It had an old small square sign in one of the windows in a painted script with "An Stad" written on it.

this place or beside it I think

http://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=maps+dublin&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Dublin,+County+Fingal&gl=ie&ll=53.355222,-6.264296&spn=0.000628,0.001021&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.355222,-6.264296&panoid=Y6IfSQB6vdVfZT5HwaiSXA&cbp=12,262.33,,0,-2.25

Related post here:

http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4282&p=39194

Esel

^ People, and buildings, grow old and decrepit. In other news....

MichaelHeslin

Bambi wrote: »

Hold on..An Stad? Was that not the name of an absolute sh**hole looking B&B or hostel on Frederick street. It gone now I think but it was there for years. Cracked windows, ancient ripped curtains etc. It had an old small square sign in one of the windows in a painted script with "An Stad" written on it.

this place or beside it I think

http://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=maps+dublin&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Dublin,+County+Fingal&gl=ie&ll=53.355222,-6.264296&spn=0.000628,0.001021&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.355222,-6.264296&panoid=Y6IfSQB6vdVfZT5HwaiSXA&cbp=12,262.33,,0,-2.25

Related post here:

http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4282&p=39194

Yup. The building with metal over the door is the place. There is stuff posted about it earlier in this thread. One of my two favourite contenders in the 'Where did Mick stay all those years ago".

MichaelHeslin

david75 wrote: »

Oh my god!! the guy who either carried this assassination out, or knew about it(cant remember) speaks about it in this incredible documentary called 'a curious journey'. It's a documentary made in 1973 speaking to survivng participants of 1916 and the subsequent years. it's a fascinating watch OP..you should watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6diBvajpmk

Thanks so much for posting that David. I saw it recently while browsing the net but had to watch it again. Since seeing my grandfather's witness statement this last summer, I have been hungry to find everything I can relating to this period in Irish history. In fact, just recently I found out that my English mother's maternal side of the family were of republican stock.....old uncle Bob Gleeson who I remember with fondness in my childhood was actually named Robert Emmett Gleeson (I think there's a clue in there!)

david75

Collins' Grave in Glasnevin