War of Independence 'landmarks'.

MichaelHeslin

This is a big shot-in-the-dark and they're not recognised landmarks but here goes anyway... I have recently received a copy of my grandfather's witness statement to the Bureau of Military History and in it he mentions various visits to Dublin (He - Michael F Heslin - was Adjutant/Intelligence Officer of the Longford Brigade) and I am curious to find the whereabouts of various places he mentions. He describes how he spent a week in the company of Michael Collins and Gearóid O'Sullivan at McCarthy's Hotel near Broadstone Station. Googling hasn't brought up this hotel. Any ideas? On another occasion, he was to take a consignment of munitions back to Longford and was taken to an arsenal by Collins and Quartermaster-General Seán McMahon. "We entered an alley off Brunswick Street (now Pearse St) and, to my surprise, a typical country woman with a white apron opened the door of a small cottage-like building." Has anyone heard of this arsenal off Brunswick St or indeed the 'typical country woman'? The munitions were delivered to the home of a James Duffy at 144A Phibsborough Road where my grandad was staying. He states, "The boxes were stowed under the bed in an upper room in which P.J. Claffey and myself slept.About 2.30 a.m. next morning I awoke and found the room a blaze of light and heard rifle shots on the road outside. I then discovered from my friend, Claffey, that there was a Sinn Fein hall opposite and on this the British Auxiliary Forces were wreaking their vengeance. Doors were being broken in and the inhabitants were in a state of confusion." Does anyone know anything about this Sinn Fein hall? I'm not expecting much but if anyone has any information or anecdotes regarding any of these places, I would be fascinated to hear them Many thanks and a happy 2011 to all.

david75

Thats fascnating..you might have more luck in the history and heritage thread..hope you find out more(ps..i think brunswick st was always and still is brunswick st up off stoneybatter but others might know better)
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=330

arybvtcw0eolkf

Oh, this could be brilliant.

I've also PM'd a Mod from the History and Heritage forum re. this thread.

MichaelHeslin

Thanks guys. I'll leave this here for now but if there's not much action here, I'll post in the History and Heritage forum instead. However, you two found this, so.... :-)

chucken1

I found it too ..Sounds fasinating!!

George83

This is fascinating - look forward to learning more. Good luck OP.

vektarman

Looking forward to see how this thread pans out, I love history, you're correct in saying Pearse Street was once known as (Great) Brunswick Street, as for the hotel near Broadstone there were a number of hotels and boarding houses on Western Way to cater for passengers using Broadstone station, iirc one or two still had their old hotel signs up to recently, if I'm passing by with my camera I'll get a couple of pics.

dubbie82

Maybe this is of some help? The site has some great bits and pieces of local history. http://dublin.forumforus.com/Broadstone

Did you try contacting the local Historical Society? They are usually a god bet. http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/libraries/Heritage%20and%20History/history_groups_and_societies/pages/index.aspx

Also the Library in Phibsborogh may hold some information...worth a shot.

Good luck with your seach and keep us posted!

MichaelHeslin

Thanks for your responses/links etc folks. A visit to the library might be out of the question at the moment as I'm living in Columbus, Ohio but I'm trying to save up enough to get out to Dublin an Longford this summer. If I hear anything about the above locations from elsewhere, I will certainly re-post here for your information. Cheers guys.

Sundew

Just spotted your thread. A few years ago I bought a brilliant book which is a guide to all the roads streets and buildings in Dublin which have links to The War of Independence and the Civil War . I'm trying to find the book at the moment so I will post the details of it when I do!

MichaelHeslin

You've got me really excited now!!!!

Victor

Do you have the exact text?

McCarthy's Hotel could quite possibly have been a rather modest establishment with less than 10-20 rooms. The train station is here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=broadstone,+Dublin,+Ireland&aq=&sll=53.354275,-6.274218&sspn=0.000231,0.001073&ie=UTF8&hq=broadstone,&hnear=Dublin,+County+Fingal,+Ireland&ll=53.354384,-6.273258&spn=0.000922,0.002248&t=k&z=18 Now used as bus depot. Trains for Longford would have left from there.

The arsenal was quite possible a room in someone's house and nothing bigger. There are quite a few laneways in the area, but the comment "cottage-like building" may narrow it down slightly to either a mews house or any of the more modest houses int he ares.. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716684,734051,7 - look at the Historic 25' version.

144a Phibsborough Road is approximately here: http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=144a+Phibsborough+Road,+Dublin&aq=0&sll=53.360873,-6.272677&sspn=0.009143,0.01929&g=144a+Phibsborough+Road,+Dublin&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=144+Phibsborough+Rd,+Dublin+7,+County+Dublin&ll=53.362241,-6.272759&spn=0.002286,0.004823&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.362324,-6.272752&panoid=cw8y6LlfZSOoDg1R2Fox5A&cbp=12,137.04,,0,-2.44 Its on Google Street View. Go to http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,714949,736058,7 It is unclear which building is 144a - it might be one of the buildings at the rear, down the laneway. Click on the Historic 25' option to see what the street was like around 1907. There is a terrace of houses across Phibsborough Road, which has since (1960s-1970s) been demolished for the shopping centre. The houses would likely have been 2-storey "second class" houses, so the "hall" may have been rather modest.

Sundew

Michael,
The book I mentioned in my earlier post is called "Where's Where in Dublin" by Joseph E.A Connell Jnr. It came out in 2006 for the 90th anniversary of the 1916 Rising.
http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/product.php?intProductID=195
It's also available on Amazon

Great book for anybody interested in Irish History, the History of Dublin City or anybody who just loves walking around Dublin City.
I'm pretty sure that I picked it up in Chapter's Bookshop for under €10

My own book is currently in storage at my in-laws house :cool: so I can't take a flick through to see if the sites you mentioned are noted in the book. Will try and get hold of it next week.

Dublin_Gunner

Victor wrote: »

Do you have the exact text?

McCarthy's Hotel could quite possibly have been a rather modest establishment with less than 10-20 rooms. The train station is here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=broadstone,+Dublin,+Ireland&aq=&sll=53.354275,-6.274218&sspn=0.000231,0.001073&ie=UTF8&hq=broadstone,&hnear=Dublin,+County+Fingal,+Ireland&ll=53.354384,-6.273258&spn=0.000922,0.002248&t=k&z=18 Now used as bus depot. Trains for Longford would have left from there.

The arsenal was quite possible a room in someone's house and nothing bigger. There are quite a few laneways in the area, but the comment "cottage-like building" may narrow it down slightly to either a mews house or any of the more modest houses int he ares.. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716684,734051,7 - look at the Historic 25' version.

144a Phibsborough Road is approximately here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=144a+Phibsborough+Road,+Dublin,+Ireland&aq=t&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=20.145894,36.826172&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=144+Phibsborough+Rd,+Dublin+7,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&ll=53.362199,-6.272496&spn=0.001844,0.004495&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.363982,-6.27325&cbp=12,14.678712217355702,,0,5 Its on Google Street View. Go to http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,714949,736058,7 It is unclear which building is 144a - it might be one of the buildings at the rear, down the laneway. Click on the Historic 25' option to see what the street was like around 1907. There is a terrace of houses across Phibsborough Road, which has since (1960s-1970s) been demolished for the shopping centre. The houses would likely have been 2-storey "second class" houses, so the "hall" may have been rather modest.

The map you linked to actually shows Leinster road.

From what I can see, 144 / 144a may well have been around the current McDonalds site. The row of shops where Aviva is could very well be the location. I actually pass down Phibsborough Road twice daily, so I'll have a look this evening (thankfully its getting brighter!) and see if I can spot where it is!

**edit

Actually, a bit of searching came up with this.

144 Phibsborough Road is the current site of McDonalds.

Beside McDonalds, there are 2 shops, eCafé, and Cameo jewellers both gone now I think, or at least closed down). Both of these shops have fronts which were obviously added to older buildings behind. It is logical to assume then, that the shop site of eCafé, is in fact 144a Phibsborough road.

If that is the case, then yes, the site of the old Sinn Fein hall would indeed be where Phibsborough Shopping centre is currently situated.

A quick census search reveals the following:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Phibsborough_Road/49039/

Patrick Claffey (possibly the 'PJ' referenced) and his mother Margaret, did indeed live in phibsborough road, and coincidentally, are registered at the same address as a James Duffy and his family.

Not likely a coincidence OP. They all hail from Longford.

Unless they moved, they actually resided at 181a Phibsborough Road according to the 1911 census. Is it possible your Grandfathers account is inaccurate? Is it written or recorded?


Ninja edit - they're on the same site, Broadstone Station and Phibsborough bus garage.

Victor

To find McCarthy's Hotel, it might be useful to find a Thom's Directory fo the era. http://www.thoms.ie/content/index.asp

You might check with Dublin City Library - the archives are in Pearse Street. They certainly seem to have a copy from 1914, 1922 (may not be the full street directory) and 1932 but you might talk to them first, if you want access. Its in the Dublin and Local Studies Collection

Dublin_Gunner

A little more insight!
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/land/arrans-quay-cb04.txt

This is a cancelled valuation form from 1919 - it shows Patrick Claffey at 181a Phibsborough road. As this is from closer to the time of the war of independance, we can assume there are innacuracies in your grandfathers account - they stayed at 181a Phibsborough Road, not 144a.

Here is the site of 181a Phibsborough ROad (weaver Lane)

181a (if you go to street view, you see a shop called 'Soorji' an building beside, and 181a (weaver lane) is through the black gate). 181 Is the grey building with the hall door in the middle, and windows either side of the hall door, just to the right of the laneway.

Which means that the 'hall' may actually have been across the road at the site of the car cleaning centre or the newish apartments.

Dublin_Gunner

This might be a longshot, but Bolton Street Institute of Technology, originally contained a hotel in part of the building.

The building was built by an architect, Charles J. McCarthy, between 1909 and 1912.

Could be be the 'McCarthy's Hotel' referred to? It would not be that far from the old Broadstone Station.

Dublin_Gunner

I think I found your hotel!

Walsh Family Tree

On the second line of the tree, find Laurence. He married a 'Maureen McCarthy' who owned the 'An Stad' hotel, North Frederick Street, Dublin.

Upon further investigation:
http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=448&p=63068#p63433

No 20 - "An Stad" - Used by Michael Collins (1890 - 1922); Irish Freedom Fighter and Signatory to the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty as a "safe house" during The War of Independence.

The poster does not quote a reference, so I'm off to find some more details - but I think we have your McCarthy's Hotel

**edit
Unfortunately it has fallen into disrepair, and now appears to house squatters.
http://derelictdublin.blogspot.com/2007/12/43-north-frederick-street-dublin-1.html

*edit
I found it on google street view. It now has the usual corregated iron across the front door. Windows are smashed. But it still exists. The 'An Stad' sign has gone, but the bracket for holding the sign is still present on the wall.

OP - is there any chance you could scan and post up your grandfathers witness statement? I'm sure it would be a fascinating read for anyone interested in Irish history. Obviously with you / your family's permission to do so.

**edit again!

It appears that the An Stad actually occupies the site of No. 30 North Frederick Street. Which, in 1911, was occupied by none other than John (Joseph) Lennon
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000091346/

Funnily, they all appear to have subsequently moved to Liverpool...

Could it be, that John Lennon, of Beatles fame, is actually a descendant of the family that owned a building that acted as a safe house for Irish rebels?

This is getting Incredible!

John Lennon, whose parents were Alfed and Julia Lennon. Alfred - of Irish descent.

Alfreds father was also 'John Lennon'. Could this be the same John (charles) Lennon listed in the archive?

If so - John Lennon's (Beatles) Granfather, also John Lennon - owned a safe house used by Irish Rebels.

Could this be of some historical significance? (well, for those who find this stuff intriguing!)

Nope. John Lennons family moved to Liverpool in the late 1800's. Was a nice story though! ha!

MichaelHeslin

I'm glad I started this thread...this is obviously where the sleuths live!

I wouldn't be surprised that an ancestor of John Lennon helped the rebels having heard his song, "Luck Of The Irish" (Funnily, I never heard it during the 40 years I lived in England...surprise, surprise!).
I think it's safe to say that grandad Mick got the address wrong and he actually stayed at 181a Phibsborough. The McCarthy's hotel posting also seems pretty compelling!
I will ask family members how they feel about uploading the statement (tho' the Bureau of Military History is digitalising all the statements at the moment so they can be accessible online in the near future). If the say it's OK, I'm happy to comply.
Anyhow, here's the relevant section:
"Collins was always helpful as far as the Longford Brigade was concerned and on this occasion escorted me to an arsenal in what was then known as Brunswick Street, now Pearse Street. We were accompanied by Seán McMahon who was then Quartermaster-General.
We entered an alley off Brunswick Street and, to my surprise, a typical country woman with a white apron opened the door of a small cottage-like building. After some discussion with Collins, McMahon and Collins decided the amount of munitions to be allocated, by way of hand-grenades, 303 ammunition and a few Colt revolvers with .45 ammunition. Collins arranged to have them packed in two boxes and delivered to where I was staying at 144A Phibsborough Road. This was the home of James Duffy, an employee of the Guinness' Brewery. Duffy was married to a cousin of mine, Maggie Claffey, formerly of Longford. Her brother, Pat Claffey, a builder, was foreman for John Good & Co., Builders, Dublin, and resided with the Duffy family. He now resides with his family at 1, Blackheath Park, Clontarf. Mr. and Mrs. Duffy died some years ago.
The two boxes of ammunition arrived by taxi under the supervision of Collins himself. We took the boxes in. The boxes were labelled and consigned to P.J. Heraty, Merchant, Edgeworthstown, who was then one of our greatest supporters of the movement in the county. A tag on the boxes bore the inscription, “Glass Ware: Handle with Care”.
The boxes were stowed under the bed in an upper room in which P.J. Claffey and myself slept. About 2.30 a.m. Next morning I awoke and found the room a blaze of light and heard rifle shots on the road outside. I then discovered from my friend, Claffey, that there was a Sinn Fein hall opposite and on this the British Auxiliary Forces were wreaking their vengeance. Doors were being broken in and the inhabitants were in a state of confusion.
The position for us was serious in view of the fact that rifle butts were pounding on the entrance door of our house. I decided to take Claffey into my confidence as he was unaware of the cargo hidden under the bed. We found an exit at the back and deposited the boxes in safety. The 'Auxies' searched the house but nothing was found".
Hope this is of interest and look forward to more postings.

Dublin_Gunner

Excellent account


Not sure we'll get much more info for ya, but we'll try!

Victor

You might have a read here: http://www.iol.ie/~seanhly/english/spies.html which links Collins and Longford.

MichaelHeslin wrote: »

I think it's safe to say that grandad Mick got the address wrong and he actually stayed at 181a Phibsborough.

Possibly, but no harm in investigating further, especially the Duffy name.

The McCarthy's hotel posting also seems pretty compelling!

Agreed.

"Collins was always helpful as far as the Longford Brigade was concerned and on this occasion escorted me to an arsenal in what was then known as Brunswick Street, now Pearse Street. We were accompanied by Seán McMahon who was then Quartermaster-General.

The bridge over the canal basin on Pearse Street is named after McMahon. His headquarters was 144 Pearse Street, home of Leo and Billy Fitzgerald. Rather interestingly, it is part of the Dublin City Library / archive complex.

http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=800&bih=377&q=mcmahon+bridge+dublin&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=aec78e2d7af14ed2 - there is some history in the first link.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717340,733897,7 (the name is a bit confused).

Gaolcon

Was your Relation in Question ever in Jail, records exist and is another way to get some information. Quite often prisoners would of signed Autograph books which gives details of other inmates, Battalions and even poems and songs absolutely fascinating documents.

MichaelHeslin

Gaolcon wrote: »

Was your Relation in Question ever in Jail, records exist and is another way to get some information. Quite often prisoners would of signed Autograph books which gives details of other inmates, Battalions and even poems and songs absolutely fascinating documents.

I'm pretty sure he was never imprisoned but who knows what I'll find out next? I didn't find out about his IRA involvement until about six months ago!

MichaelHeslin

Victor wrote: »

You might have a read here: http://www.iol.ie/~seanhly/english/spies.html which links Collins and Longford.

Possibly, but no harm in investigating further, especially the Duffy name.

Agreed.

The bridge over the canal basin on Pearse Street is named after McMahon. His headquarters was 144 Pearse Street, home of Leo and Billy Fitzgerald. Rather interestingly, it is part of the Dublin City Library / archive complex.

http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=800&bih=377&q=mcmahon+bridge+dublin&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=aec78e2d7af14ed2 - there is some history in the first link.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717340,733897,7 (the name is a bit confused).

Thanks for all that Victor. I've read quite a bit about Collins and Longford. Somewhere along the line, one of my family married a Kiernan in Longford. My grandad's future brother-in-law James J Brady was Joe McGuinness's Election Director as well as the secretary of the Ballinamuck Sinn Fein. In fact, I found an undercover hand written police report on the net about a meeting in Ballinamuck where my great uncle and Michael Collins were speakers.

Victor

I wonder if the "cottage like building" might be one of the terraced cottages* on Erne Terrace Front (yes, thats a strange street name )

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=swqgmvggck3f&lvl=19.164340664314537&dir=172.78975002675065&sty=b - the library is the formal building on Pearse Street.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716820,733968,7


* Terraced cottages would be somewhat common in urban areas, but rare in rural areas, where most cottages would be standalone, hence the author's (presumably from Longford) phrasing.

Dublin_Gunner

This is some great input from everyone on this thread! We're really building up a fascinating picture of the events surrounding the War of Independance, involving the OP's Grandfather.

Great work!

MichaelHeslin

Sundew wrote: »

Michael,
The book I mentioned in my earlier post is called "Where's Where in Dublin" by Joseph E.A Connell Jnr. It came out in 2006 for the 90th anniversary of the 1916 Rising.
http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/product.php?intProductID=195
It's also available on Amazon

Great book for anybody interested in Irish History, the History of Dublin City or anybody who just loves walking around Dublin City.
I'm pretty sure that I picked it up in Chapter's Bookshop for under €10

My own book is currently in storage at my in-laws house :cool: so I can't take a flick through to see if the sites you mentioned are noted in the book. Will try and get hold of it next week.

Thanks for that. I'll keep an eye out for the book.

Victor

http://www.dublincitypubliclibraries.com/dublin-buildings/pearse-street-library

The house two doors up from the library is connected with the story of a man named Leo Fitzgerald. Leo was a soldier of the IRA. During the War of Independence he and some other IRA soldiers got into a battle near Pearse Street Library with the Black and Tans, a group of former British soldiers who had been sent to Ireland by the British government to help in the fight against the Irish rebels. Leo was shot and died in this house. The house now is part of the library and there is a plaque outside reminding us of Leo’s story.

The full article is also an interesting read.

MichaelHeslin

Victor wrote: »

I wonder if the "cottage like building" might be one of the terraced cottages* on Erne Terrace Front (yes, thats a strange street name )

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=swqgmvggck3f&lvl=19.164340664314537&dir=172.78975002675065&sty=b - the library is the formal building on Pearse Street.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716820,733968,7


* Terraced cottages would be somewhat common in urban areas, but rare in rural areas, where most cottages would be standalone, hence the author's (presumably from Longford) phrasing.

Yup. Mick was born in Longford, died in Longford.
I was looking at the areas around present day Pearse St and there are plenty of possibilities for the 'cottage'. There is also so much modern development that the building may have disappeared under concrete and glass many years ago! I guess I'll only ever get to find it if it turns up in a book about McMahon or another witness statement as a known IRA arsenal. I love the whole idea about the place being occupied by a 'typical country woman': "Good mornin' gentlemen....will ye be wantin' yer threshin' machine fixed or would ye want some hand grenades?"

MichaelHeslin

Victor wrote: »

http://www.dublincitypubliclibraries.com/dublin-buildings/pearse-street-libraryThe full article is also an interesting read.

Thanks for that Victor. There's more about the incident here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Traynor

MichaelHeslin

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

I think I found your hotel!

Walsh Family Tree

On the second line of the tree, find Laurence. He married a 'Maureen McCarthy' who owned the 'An Stad' hotel, North Frederick Street, Dublin.

Upon further investigation:
http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=448&p=63068#p63433



The poster does not quote a reference, so I'm off to find some more details - but I think we have your McCarthy's Hotel

**edit
Unfortunately it has fallen into disrepair, and now appears to house squatters.
http://derelictdublin.blogspot.com/2007/12/43-north-frederick-street-dublin-1.html

*edit
I found it on google street view. It now has the usual corregated iron across the front door. Windows are smashed. But it still exists. The 'An Stad' sign has gone, but the bracket for holding the sign is still present on the wall.

OP - is there any chance you could scan and post up your grandfathers witness statement? I'm sure it would be a fascinating read for anyone interested in Irish history. Obviously with you / your family's permission to do so.

**edit again!

It appears that the An Stad actually occupies the site of No. 30 North Frederick Street. Which, in 1911, was occupied by none other than John (Joseph) Lennon
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000091346/

Funnily, they all appear to have subsequently moved to Liverpool...

Could it be, that John Lennon, of Beatles fame, is actually a descendant of the family that owned a building that acted as a safe house for Irish rebels?

This is getting Incredible!

John Lennon, whose parents were Alfed and Julia Lennon. Alfred - of Irish descent.

Alfreds father was also 'John Lennon'. Could this be the same John (charles) Lennon listed in the archive?

If so - John Lennon's (Beatles) Granfather, also John Lennon - owned a safe house used by Irish Rebels.

Could this be of some historical significance? (well, for those who find this stuff intriguing!)

Nope. John Lennons family moved to Liverpool in the late 1800's. Was a nice story though! ha!

The Michael Collins quote has a load of funny characters in my browser but am I right in thinking it says that the An Stad is at No 20? If so, it appears to be here (hope the link works) between a pub and video shop: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=20+North+Frederick+Street,+Dublin,+Ireland&aq=&sll=53.355802,-6.264932&sspn=0.007044,0.01929&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=20+Frederick+St+N,+Dublin+1,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&ll=53.355815,-6.264932&spn=0.006993,0.01929&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.355899,-6.265014&panoid=vC-VJjcVuuiupa56ygy_NA&cbp=12,219.96,,0,11.8

Victor

MichaelHeslin wrote: »

The Michael Collins quote has a load of funny characters in my browser but am I right in thinking it says that the An Stad is at No 20? If so, it appears to be here (hope the link works) between a pub and video shop: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=20+North+Frederick+Street,+Dublin,+Ireland&aq=&sll=53.355802,-6.264932&sspn=0.007044,0.01929&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=20+Frederick+St+N,+Dublin+1,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&ll=53.355815,-6.264932&spn=0.006993,0.01929&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.355899,-6.265014&panoid=vC-VJjcVuuiupa56ygy_NA&cbp=12,219.96,,0,11.8

It seems to be referred to variously as no. 20, no. 30 and no. 43. However, it isn't a very big street and there are only 1-2 derelict properties, so it should be easy to tie down.

http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4282
http://derelictdublin.blogspot.com/2007/12/43-north-frederick-street-dublin-1.html
http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=448&p=63068#p63433

Based on the photos in the last link and vague recollection, no. 30 is the most plausible.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=sws94vggb497&lvl=18.802479412258855&dir=176.22958277902885&sty=b

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715529,735295,7

Dublin_Gunner

Its definitely number 30 as I stated. The bracket for holdijg the an stad sign is still beside the door.

In the Blog I linked to you can still see the sign, and notice the blinds in the building next door.

On street view it now has corrigated metal covering the main door, the sign is gone but the bracket is still there, and the same blinds in the window next door

MichaelHeslin

I just saw the comment about the sign in your link. This is all getting more and more fascinating and I'm thinking that this is probably 'McCarthy's hotel'. I'm sure something will turn up to confirm this without any doubt.

Esel

I don't think An Stad is the hotel the OP is asking about. It was a B&B, not a hotel, and was used by many IRA members for many decades after the Rising. Also, it's well away from Broadstone.

There was a hotel, called The Leix Hotel, on Dominic St (the Broadstone end) which was a regular IRA gathering place in the thirties at least. I would not be surprised if it turned out to have been previously McCarthy's.

Dublin_Gunner

Esel wrote: »

I don't think An Stad is the hotel the OP is asking about. It was a B&B, not a hotel, and was used by many IRA members for many decades after the Rising. Also, it's well away from Broadstone.

There was a hotel, called The Leix Hotel, on Dominic St (the Broadstone end) which was a regular IRA gathering place in the thirties at least. I would not be surprised if it turned out to have been previously McCarthy's.

?? North Frederick Street is only about a 10 minute walk from the old broadstone station, and is no further away than Dominick Street tbh.

Definitely open to suggestions, but as 'An Stad' was owned by a McCarthy family, and is noted as being a safe house used by Collins etc during the time of the rising / civil war - so I think its a fair assumption.

Also, please note the reference to 'hotel' was made in the OP's witness statement. So really could mean hotel / guesthouse / B&B / hostel etc

I'll check out the Leix Hotel also - as we'd like to definitely source this for the OP.

Dublin_Gunner

After a quick check on the 1911 census, there are 2 McCarthy family's listed as living in Dominick Street, at 37.2 and 11.3 Dominick Street. Neither family's members listed as owning hotels. They were coach builders in one family, and the others were labourers and scholars.

Saying that, the McCarthy's who did own the 'An Stad' hotel / B&B are not listed in the 1911 census either - but the Hotel was definitely owned by a McCarthy family later on.

Victor

Esel wrote: »

I don't think An Stad is the hotel the OP is asking about. It was a B&B

I think it needs to be taken in context. For someone coming from Longford in that era, there would have been little difference between a hotel and a B&B. Put it in the context of the Greville Arms (owned by Kitty Kiernan) where Collins stayed in Longford. http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/Collins%20Haunts/Collins_Haunts/Greville%20Arms.html

Also, it's well away from Broadstone.

Not all that far. http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Western+Way%2FN2&daddr=Frederick+St+N&hl=en&geocode=FcgfLgMd7Eag_w%3BFT8jLgMdqWmg_w&mra=dme&mrcr=0&mrsp=0&sz=16&dirflg=w&sll=53.354842,-6.268322&sspn=0.003688,0.017166&ie=UTF8&ll=53.354842,-6.264224&spn=0.003688,0.008991&z=16

Dublin_Gunner

Victor wrote: »

Not all that far. http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Western+Way%2FN2&daddr=Frederick+St+N&hl=en&geocode=FcgfLgMd7Eag_w%3BFT8jLgMdqWmg_w&mra=dme&mrcr=0&mrsp=0&sz=16&dirflg=w&sll=53.354842,-6.268322&sspn=0.003688,0.017166&ie=UTF8&ll=53.354842,-6.264224&spn=0.003688,0.008991&z=16

Just as far as Lower Dominick Street TBH.

Which, back in the times when people weren't as lazy, a 10 minute walk could easily be deemed to be 'near by'.

twowheelsonly

Most likely also that locals and/or IRA would have called it 'McCarthys' rather than use it's full name of 'An Stad'.
That is to say that if the authorites heard that such and such was staying in 'An Stad' they knew exactly where to go. McCarthys on the other hand could be one of 20 different places.
My grandmother used to regularly reference places by their 'localised' names rather than the official name of the same era.

david75

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Most likely also that locals and/or IRA would have called it 'McCarthys' rather than use it's full name of 'An Stad'.
That is to say that if the authorites heard that such and such was staying in 'An Stad' they knew exactly where to go. McCarthys on the other hand could be one of 20 different places.
My grandmother used to regularly reference places by their 'localised' names rather than the official name of the same era.

Agree with that completely. This happens daily everywhere in Dublin and around the country.

Fascinating stuff here folks. Well played all of you.

MichaelHeslin

This is all great stuff and thanks for the contributions so far. I'm tending towards An Stad as the likeliest 'McCarthy's hotel' mentioned in my grandad's statement. Nothing is set in stone yet so feel free to keep the theories coming

Despite the fact that I've never set a foot in Dublin (Longford only when I was small), I'm getting a real sense of local history thanks to you guys. And thanks to Google Street View I think that if I get out there this summer, I'll already know the streets of Dublin like the back of my hand!

Esel

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

?? North Frederick Street is only about a 10 minute walk from the old broadstone station, and is no further away than Dominick Street tbh.

I don't want to derail this thread, but the Leix Hotel I mentioned was effectively in Broadstone. That fact, and its IRA connections, was why I mentioned it in the first place....

Also, for the OP - I think that Broadstone was an active train station then, so it is possible/probable that there were a number of hotels in the immediate vicinity. As someone said earlier, see if you can find out anything from the Thom's directories of the period.

Dublin_Gunner

Esel wrote: »

I don't want to derail this thread, but the Leix Hotel I mentioned was effectively in Broadstone. That fact, and its IRA connections, was why I mentioned it in the first place....

Also, for the OP - I think that Broadstone was an active train station then, so it is possible/probable that there were a number of hotels in the immediate vicinity. As someone said earlier, see if you can find out anything from the Thom's directories of the period.

Well North Fredercik Street is really no further away than Dominick street. I'm not saying An Stad is definitely the 'hotel' but the Leix is only one of many hotels / guesthouses in the area, and we have seen absolutely NO connections to the name McCarthy thus far. And nowhere in the statement does it state the 'hotel' was in the broadstone area, merey that it was not that far away. 10 minutes walk is not that far away.

If you can find a 'McCarthy' that owned the hotel around 1920, you may have a candidate. Until then, its not really a runner IMO. Accurate history is based upon fact, innacurate history is based upon assumption.

Saying that, all in all I think everyones contributions have been great so far, and the more information we can dig up for the OP the better.

Already we can build up quite a picture of the OP's grandfather, and his travels as detailed in his statement.

MichaelHeslin

Thanks once more folks. Methinks if I get out there this summer, I'm honour-bound to buy a few pints!
Broadstone was certainly a working train station then. Elsewhere in the statement there are accounts of some hair-raising events involving the station. I won't be able to upload this info as some relatives aren't happy about my uploading his statement so I'll respect their feelings.
I think my nest step is trying to find the old Thoms directories online.
Ciao for now!

Esel

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Well North Fredercik Street is really no further away than Dominick street.

You do know that Dominic St runs from Parnell St all the way to Western Way? The Leix Hotel was at the Western Way end of this street, about 200 yards from Broadstone. The statement says the hotel was near Broadstone, not that is was 'was not that far away'. The Leix Hotel was definitely frequented by IRA members in the '30s at least. 'An Stad' was a regular billet for many decades. All of the above is 'accurate history', not assumption, to the best of my knowledge.

If it was in fact 'An Stad', would the testator really have described it as 'near Broadstone'? There are other major landmarks right by 'An Stad' - Parnell Square (if so called then), Findlater's Church, Parnell's Statue, The Rotunda Hospital, O'Connell St (Sackville St then) etc. Referring to any of them would be much more logical in those circumstances, tbh.

Nothing I have posted is based on assumption. I have no interest in proving/disproving either candidate location, and will not have any problem if the Leix Hotel turns out to be a red herring. My only interest is in giving the OP the benefit of what knowledge I have to aid in his research.

Dublin_Gunner

Esel wrote: »

You do know that Dominic St runs from Parnell St all the way to Western Way? The Leix Hotel was at the Western Way end of this street, about 200 yards from Broadstone. The statement says the hotel was near Broadstone, not that is was 'was not that far away'. The Leix Hotel was definitely frequented by IRA members in the '30s at least. 'An Stad' was a regular billet for many decades. All of the above is 'accurate history', not assumption, to the best of my knowledge.

If it was in fact 'An Stad', would the testator really have described it as 'near Broadstone'? There are other major landmarks right by 'An Stad' - Parnell Square (if so called then), Findlater's Church, Parnell's Statue, The Rotunda Hospital, O'Connell St (Sackville St then) etc. Referring to any of them would be much more logical in those circumstances, tbh.

Nothing I have posted is based on assumption. I have no interest in proving/disproving either candidate location, and will not have any problem if the Leix Hotel turns out to be a red herring. My only interest is in giving the OP the benefit of what knowledge I have to aid in his research.

Yes, living in Dublin my entire life, I'm well aware of where the street runs.

I'm not arguing with you, great there was a hotel called Leix on Dominick STreet frequented by the IRA inthe 30's.

1. You're in the wrong era.
2. You have given not even a scrap of evidence that this hotel may be known as 'McCarthy's'.
3. Point 2 indicates you are indeed workign on assumption.

Now, evidence for 'An Stad'.

1. On North Frederick street - which is 'near' broadstone (10min walk)
2. Owned by a Maureen McCarthy.
3. Known safe house for Collins etc during the civil war.
4. Not based on assumption.

Taking these two sets of evidence into account, I think its fairly easy to see which is the prime candidate.

Now its great you spent some of your time trying to prove me wrong for whatever reason, and great, you found some evidence of a hotel frquented by IRA members in the thirties.

But really, that bares no meaningful relationship to the story of the OP's grandfathers time in Dublin in the early 20's.

Oh, and for your information, 'near' and 'not that far away' mean relatively the same thing. You're being pedantic. Plus, we have not seen the actual quote in relation to the hotel, only what the OP posted in the original post.

And in relation to your 'near' statement and the testator maybe using someother landmark as reference - the OP's grandfather was not from Dublin, so therefore may well have been indicating its distance form a well known landmark in every city - a train station.

Now, can we get back to trying to actually help the OP find the information he is looking for?

MichaelHeslin

There seems to be a passion for history here which I think is wonderful in this throw-away day-and-age and I appreciate all contributions which help to unearth old Dublin and what it was during Mick's connection with the city during turbulent times.
While looking for safe-houses I came across this and wonder if you think the Sinn Fein bookshop might be a potentially good port of call for my enquiries? I realise that anything aimed at the tourist market can be dodgy in it's historical accuracy wherever in the world it is, of course!:
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2008/jul/27/sinn-feins-rebel-dublin-a-walking-tour-with-a-diff/

Esel

Michael, I hope your quest bears fruit. As I am sure you know, many books have been published on this chapter of Irish history. I am not qualified to refer you to any particular publication. However, Tim Pat Coogan, a renowned and very well-respected writer on the subject matter, is still alive as of this date. You should try to contact him on this matter. I am sure (given his fame) that you could find out how to get in touch with him. He is/was published by Random House, so this would be a starting point (almittedly a poor one). You would probalby reach him quicker by writing to him at the following address (this is a small country, and he is famous here!) :

Mr Tim Pat Coogan,
c/o GPO,
Dublin,
Ireland.

______________________________________________________________________


DG: Pedantic, moi? I've been called worse, but I am not often insulted, as I usually know what particular words mean. On Craggy Island, there may not be much difference, in "Father Ted" speak, between 'near' and '(not so) far away'. In the real world, however, the terms do differ.

As I stated in my previous post, I have no interest in proving/disproving either candidate location, and will not have any problem if the Leix Hotel turns out to be a red herring. I don't really care whether 'An Stad' turns out to be the location of the premises in question or not. In fact, I hope it does. Your numbered 'logic' is flawed, by the way. I do not intend to post further in this thread, unless it it to acknowledge that you have been proven to be correct, or to reply to the OP. Feel free to have the last word anyway.

______________________________________________________________________ = Bigger line under.....

Esel

Munster Private Hotel (aka Aras na nGael aka Grianán na nGaedheal)
44 Mountjoy St

Owner Myra T McCarthy (usually referred to as 'Miss McCarthy' in related literature)

Source:

Dublin in Rebellion a Directory 1913-1923
Author Joseph EA Connell Jnr
The Lilliput Press, Dublin first published 2006 revised edition 2009
ISBN 978 1 84351 137 3

The entry for this address states that Collins used this hotel regularly, until it became too 'hot' a few years after the rising. Mountjoy St is indeed near to Broadstone - it starts at the other end of Western Way, beside the Black Church.


Tim Pat Coogan, in his book 'Michael Collins' refers to Collins's "...lodgings at Miss McCarthy's, 44 Mountjoy St.,....". Coogan does not refer to it as a hotel, though.

MichaelHeslin

That's an amazing find Esel. The Collins/McCarthy references make this a heavyweight contender! I will now spend a huge amount of time researching this place to the annoyance of my nearest and dearest!