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Monty Burnz

nullzero wrote: »

That symbolism is a lot older than Blade Runner.
I'm going though this thread and I relaly do thin that you should at least pop over to Youtube and pick up some basics on this stuff, you know as ammunition for your arguments here.

To be honest, I don't want to spend too much time becoming an authority on who claims what about whom - I'd have to learn both sides of the story the whole way rather than swallowing one narrative. With that in mind, I'll just stick to asking common-sense questions here and weighing the evidence that is presented.

By the way, I know that imagery dates back to before 1982
It's just that that example was in my mind because of another thread on Bladerunner.

DeBunny

Hi Nullzero. I appreciate you have done a lot of "research" on Illuminati symbolism so instead of complaining about how stupid other people are, would you care to impart some of this knowledge?

When it comes to Black Sabbath, that's just another example of clever record company bosses using graphic images to sell stuff. Nothing unusual.

As for Jay Z and Lady Gaga being vacuous and unintelligent? Really? They are cynical business people who know exactly how the music industry works, they know how people work and they know exactly how to exploit the fears and gullibilities of their target market.

nullzero

DeBunny wrote: »

Hi Nullzero. I appreciate you have done a lot of "research" on Illuminati symbolism so instead of complaining about how stupid other people are, would you care to impart some of this knowledge?

When it comes to Black Sabbath, that's just another example of clever record company bosses using graphic images to sell stuff. Nothing unusual.

As for Jay Z and Lady Gaga being vacuous and unintelligent? Really? They are cynical business people who know exactly how the music industry works, they know how people work and they know exactly how to exploit the fears and gullibilities of their target market.

I never said Monty was stupid I pointed out that he could improve his knowledge on these subjects, it couldn't hurt could it?

Please dont attempt to mis represent me again.

Those "artists" you mentioned aren't as clever as you think they are.
Like the majority of musical acts, they take their orders from their bosses, this isn't a wack CT, it's pretty obvious to even the most hard nosed sceptic.
I've discussed these topics at length before, and the subject of symbolism.
If you look back through the forum you'll find a lot of what you're asking for.

All the best.

The Recliner

nullzero wrote: »

If you're stupid enough to believe that somebody as vacuous as Lady Gaga or Jay Z have the abiltity to control the worlds youth through their own cunning you deserve whatever it is you get.

You have just called a bunch of people in this thread stupid

Given that you have just commented in the feedback thread about the hostility in this forum I would hope that you would recognise when you are contributing to that yourself and dial it back a little

nullzero

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be honest, I don't want to spend too much time becoming an authority on who claims what about whom - I'd have to learn both sides of the story the whole way rather than swallowing one narrative. With that in mind, I'll just stick to asking common-sense questions here and weighing the evidence that is presented.

By the way, I know that imagery dates back to before 1982
It's just that that example was in my mind because of another thread on Bladerunner.

You're free to do as you please, but you're going to be getting a lot of things wrong on this forum without knowing the basics of the topics discussed here.

Surely getting knowing your enemy is a worthy way to spend your time when you're already pointing out the woes of the CT crowd, although you're currently not doing as good a job as you could if you'd take the time to learn a few things first.

Surely your lack of underatnding of these topics reflects as badly on you as any relectance from CT people to examine things as soke sceptics invite them to.
Your common sense and somebody elses may well be very differnt things indeed.

nullzero

The Recliner wrote: »

You have just called a bunch of people in this thread stupid

Given that you have just commented in the feedback thread about the hostility in this forum I would hope that you would recognise when you are contributing to that yourself and dial it back a little

Hang on a minute, I never meant that as an insult.
In fact I believe that everybody here is smart enough to know how the music industry works.

In retrospect I can see how it may have looked to some people but it wasn't my intent at all.

My point was that people outside the confines of this forum who haven't thought this topic through may be stupid enough to believe that Jay Z is running the world.

I can only imagine your glee in infracting me for that comment.
It would be nice if you took the context in which it was written into account and rescind the infraction.

I think it's important that to point out that I wasn't saying anybody on this forum is stupid and that my comment was taken way out of context so I could be made an example of.

kryogen

You need to look at who "handles" the artists and who controls their career path to get more then the artist themselves tbh, they are surrounded by managers/pr experts/record execs etc... who all have a big say in their image and direction, the stars themselves are merely the faces imo

DeBunny

If I see any posts that make me think that Jay Z, etc might be devil worshiping, global enslavement obsessed illuminati, rather than just clever business men using controversial symbolism as way to make to money I'll be sure to respond.

nullzero

DeBunny wrote: »

If I see any posts that make me think that Jay Z, etc might be devil worshiping, global enslavement obsessed illuminati, rather than just clever business men using controversial symbolism as way to make to money I'll be sure to respond.

I don't think Jay Z is that clever, although it's plausible that the people who operate above him may be.

WakeUp

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If you were a secret, shadowy, sinister organisation, why would you go around deliberately leaving clues for amateur sleuths to follow?

It fails the old logic test I'm afraid.

That would be a matter of opinion really it might fail your logic test, but lets apply a different logic to it than the one you have in mind.

My understanding of symbolism in the music industry, hollyhood or wherever has nothing to do with communicating a "secret" message per se as you have alluded to in a previous post.

People who claim to be ex-members of the illuminati say that the reason they put the symbolism in plain sight is so as that current members are aware who is in control and that they are being watched. The trained eye can spot the symbolism its not hard its everywhere, people who have no knowledge of the subject dont see anything. People who wouldnt know anything about the subject might do a bit of research, then enter the minefield of discussion probably lose interest in it because its so confusing and come to the conclusion the conspiracy theorists are "nuts" or whatever. People have been condtioned in my opinion to believe anything like this is possible to be off the wall. After all its not like the people in control would ever lie to the minnions or dont have our best interests at heart. The government/overlords love us really. Evil things never happen.

I found this video on youtube Im posting it so people can have a look at it and make up their own minds. The symbolism is all over the music industry and it would appear its all over hollyhood too. So if its not conincidence why put it there? considering the vast majority of the population have only heard about the illuminati in a fleeting way and would know very little about its alleged purpose/activities or history. So why is it everywhere?

The Recliner

nullzero wrote: »

I can only imagine your glee in infracting me for that comment.
It would be nice if you took the context in which it was written into account and rescind the infraction.

I think it's important that to point out that I wasn't saying anybody on this forum is stupid and that my comment was taken way out of context so I could be made an example of.

Just to clarify to everybody though it shouldn't be needed that you don't argue moderation on thread as it takes them off topic, PM the Mods if you want to discuss moderation (which Nullzero did but still felt the need to take issue here)

As for taking glee at handing out an infraction or making an example of you I have no idea where that comes from, I have had very little interaction with you on this forum and no reason whatsoever to have a vendetta against you

I was merely enforcing the charter based on the content of your post the same as I do with everyone and the infraction has been upheld by a CMod

Monty Burnz

WakeUp wrote: »

That would be a matter of opinion really it might fail your logic test, but lets apply a different logic to it than the one you have in mind.

My understanding of symbolism in the music industry, hollyhood or wherever has nothing to do with communicating a "secret" message per se as you have alluded to in a previous post.

People who claim to be ex-members of the illuminati say that the reason they put the symbolism in plain sight is so as that current members are aware who is in control and that they are being watched.

But this comes down to communication again - why not just tell people they are being watched? Send them an email, or give them a buzz. If the people are fomer Illuminati, surely they would know the awsome scope of Illuminati power?

In fact, why bother telling them at all? When they are leaving the Illuminati, you could just tell them not to get up to anything and that they would be watched. Getting Lady Gaga to wiggle around a pyramid with one eye covered seems to be an unnecessary complication to me.

Regarding the ubiquity of certain images and symbols, that is genuienly a good question in my view. But to properly study it, you would need to look at all of the memes that are common use - everything from Hello Kitty, Lolcats, the hammer and sickle, the Simpsons, classical architecture, Celtic patterns to pyramids and masonic symbols. You could then properly investigate how often the Illuminati stuff pops up and is it really so prevalent, or only prevalent because you are actually looking out for it.

Any study where you look at where something that is ascribed to the Illuminati crops up is rather undermined if you don't allow for all the times that they don't come up - the world we live in is a sea of symbols and referentiality.

Edit: I've watched the video as far as the Simspons and I think I can explain a few of the references. Through a Scanner Darkly is a film about surveillance. It would be quite odd if there was no 'eye' symbolism in it. Also PKD was a mentally ill paranoid, so he had plenty of conspiracy theories himself. The Simspsons episode is about the 'Stonecutters' - satire on (would you believe it) the Masons. No real shock to see Mason symbols in there. The 300 one was a bit odd: you could stick a pyramid with an eye in front of any actor in a film on a staircase - I think that one is pretty weak. The 9/11 stuff is a bit freaky alright, but there must be tens of thousands of films for example where you see a watch or a clock that could be at 9:11 or 5 minutes to nine on an analogue watch. Similarly with Terminator - there are probably a lot films with bridges in the background with a height, I'd almost be surprised if that isn't the only 9/11 out there. That doesn't mean that I don't find it freaky too, but that's the power of coincidence. You also have to factor in that directors will deliberately reference these things for fun (like the Wilhelm scream) or to add a layer of meaning to something (e.g. to suggest that the character is involved or interested in CTs) or because the eye/pyramid thing is one of the most recognisable symbols in America (as it's on everybody's money).

studiorat

nullzero wrote: »

If you're stupid enough to believe that somebody as vacuous as Lady Gaga or Jay Z have the abiltity to control the worlds youth through their own cunning you deserve whatever it is you get.

I think you misunderstand. Allow me to simplify it for you. Nobody is suggesting Jay Z is running anything or in control of anyone. What is being suggested is that the kids who are into Jay Z etc. are also into the illumaniti thing, so they get all the references and the like.

Neither IMO are in control of the world. :rolleyes:

DeBunny

WakeUp wrote: »

That would be a matter of opinion really it might fail your logic test, but lets apply a different logic to it than the one you have in mind.

There's no such thing as "your logic" or "a different logic". That's the good thing about logic.
Saying "lets apply a different logic" is like saying lets apply a different maths. There isn't one.

Btw, the part in the video that says "truth is simple; mankind makes it COMPLICATED" was very ironic. The illuminati symbolism CT is overly complicated (not be confused with 'hard to understand') for it to be credible.
It followed that with "Nothing is truth until you realise it". So is the world only round if I realise it? That way of reasoning makes it all too easy to believe in any thing you want.
There was nothing in the video that didn't make me think it's just some harmless memes.
I could make a similar video saying that every one who high fives is conspiring to take over the world and it would be just as valid as the points made in video.
It's like playing connect the dots without numbers and coming up with the picture you want.

Any way, even if there is a malicious conspiracy to enslave and generally make life uncomfortable for man kind, they're doing a crap job. Dontcha' think? Since the dawn of civilization, the quality of life for mankind around the globe has done nothing but improve. Lifespan, Freedom of expression, freedom of movement, freedom to make money, (the list goes on) are all on the increase with only the odd war or epidemic putting a dip in the trend. Even they're on the decrease.
If "they" already control the world I say leave them at it. They seem like a nice buncha lads. :pac:

WakeUp

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But this comes down to communication again - why not just tell people they are being watched? Send them an email, or give them a buzz. If the people are fomer Illuminati, surely they would know the awsome scope of Illuminati power?

In fact, why bother telling them at all? When they are leaving the Illuminati, you could just tell them not to get up to anything and that they would be watched. Getting Lady Gaga to wiggle around a pyramid with one eye covered seems to be an unnecessary complication to me.

I don’t pretend to know why these symbols are everywhere all I can do is speculate like the next man and try find out about them best I can. Maybe it’s a power thing the more symbols the better, but I do remember reading an article by a woman who said she was born into one of these illuminati families and she went on to describe what life was like for her growing up. I cant find the article I didn’t bookmark it and I cant remember her name but I remember her story not something you would forget in a hurry it was disturbing. Anyways to cut a long story short she said the symbols are reminders incase anyone decides to go public and talk about their experiences. All seeing eye we are watching and all that, people within the illuminati some of them want out but they are too terrified to leave or seek help. The likes of Lady gaga , the music industry, hollyhood are just being used like everyone else in my opinion.

Regarding the ubiquity of certain images and symbols, that is genuienly a good question in my view. But to properly study it, you would need to look at all of the memes that are common use - everything from Hello Kitty, Lolcats, the hammer and sickle, the Simpsons, classical architecture, Celtic patterns to pyramids and masonic symbols. You could then properly investigate how often the Illuminati stuff pops up and is it really so prevalent, or only prevalent because you are actually looking out for it.
Any study where you look at where something that is ascribed to the Illuminati crops up is rather undermined if you don't allow for all the times that they don't come up - the world we live in is a sea of symbols and referentiality.

They are fair comments maybe we could look into and try come up with some sort of answer. I would say that the pyramid and eye do seem to come up quite a bit and it is a known symbol of the illuminati, the Bavarian illuminati that is (1740’s onwards) secret societies have existed for thousands of years in some shape or form going way back to ancient China. For the sake of discussion I would just say that when people refer to the illuminati they are talking about the Bavarain illuminati. Incidentally the British Queens family and line hail from Bavaria, Saxe-Coburg & Gotha thought I would throw that in there seen as though they are just across the pond and are alleged to be prominent illuminati members:)

Edit: I've watched the video as far as the Simspons and I think I can explain a few of the references. Through a Scanner Darkly is a film about surveillance. It would be quite odd if there was no 'eye' symbolism in it. Also PKD was a mentally ill paranoid, so he had plenty of conspiracy theories himself. The Simspsons episode is about the 'Stonecutters' - satire on (would you believe it) the Masons. No real shock to see Mason symbols in there. The 300 one was a bit odd: you could stick a pyramid with an eye in front of any actor in a film on a staircase - I think that one is pretty weak. The 9/11 stuff is a bit freaky alright, but there must be tens of thousands of films for example where you see a watch or a clock that could be at 9:11 or 5 minutes to nine on an analogue watch. Similarly with Terminator - there are probably a lot films with bridges in the background with a height, I'd almost be surprised if that isn't the only 9/11 out there. That doesn't mean that I don't find it freaky too, but that's the power of coincidence. You also have to factor in that directors will deliberately reference these things for fun (like the Wilhelm scream) or to add a layer of meaning to something (e.g. to suggest that the character is involved or interested in CTs) or because the eye/pyramid thing is one of the most recognisable symbols in America (as it's on everybody's money).

If you were to take each lets say “frame” and look at one a day then there wouldn’t appear to be much going on with them. When you put them all together though I think it paints a different picture. Again it’s the eye and the pyramid always the eye and the pyramid and Im guessing the majority of the films shown were made in hollyhood studios but I have to check that out im sure some of them were not. The 9/11 is different I think and open to a lot more speculation. The point you made about the clock showing 9/11 is relevant because at least twice a day the hands of the clock will be in that position no matter what so theres a chance albeit small that the shot just happened to be taken at that particular time I don’t know what the odds of that happening are but im thinking they are remote. Im going to try find out about the bridge heights in the US, first of all find out where that Terminator 2 shot was taken and see if I can match up the height requirement should be fun doing that. The 9/11 stuff isn’t clear cut at all but it is a lil freaky I have to admit.

WakeUp

DeBunny wrote: »

There's no such thing as "your logic" or "a different logic". That's the good thing about logic.
Saying "lets apply a different logic" is like saying lets apply a different maths. There isn't one.

I understand were youre were coming from but Im not so sure about that:) You have a situation with many possible outcomes and ways to approach it. Dude a has an idea and dude b has an idea. Two different ways of dealing with/ reading the situation. Two different lines of thought..Two different forms of “logic”.??

Btw, the part in the video that says "truth is simple; mankind makes it COMPLICATED" was very ironic. The illuminati symbolism CT is overly complicated (not be confused with 'hard to understand') for it to be credible.
It followed that with "Nothing is truth until you realise it". So is the world only round if I realise it? That way of reasoning makes it all too easy to believe in any thing you want.
There was nothing in the video that didn't make me think it's just some harmless memes.
I could make a similar video saying that every one who high fives is conspiring to take over the world and it would be just as valid as the points made in video.
It's like playing connect the dots without numbers and coming up with the picture you want.

I didn’t link the video to focus on what he wrote that would be last thing registering for me to be honest. It was more to focus on the symbolism. We could talk for hours here about the meanings or interpretations of what he was saying Im not going to argue with you over them at all your analogy about the world being round is right but yeah lets not get into that I just posted the video so people could check out the symbolism for themselves:)

Any way, even if there is a malicious conspiracy to enslave and generally make life uncomfortable for man kind, they're doing a crap job. Dontcha' think? Since the dawn of civilization, the quality of life for mankind around the globe has done nothing but improve. Lifespan, Freedom of expression, freedom of movement, freedom to make money, (the list goes on) are all on the increase with only the odd war or epidemic putting a dip in the trend. Even they're on the decrease.
If "they" already control the world I say leave them at it. They seem like a nice buncha lads. :pac:

That’s not accurate at all in fairness and a little shallow if im honest about it not having a dig just saying….go ask the people in the third world what they think of life in general or the countless innocent people who suffer at the hands of evil leaders, illegal wars and down right cruelty. Yes “life” has improved in certain ways but not for everyone not by a long shot people die everyday from lack of food and basic medicine and we are supposed to be a “civilized” species. Mankind has been at war forever. Epidemics constantly wipe people out. Things don’t look like changing anytime soon either.

DeBunny

Sorry W.U, I don't see how different lines of thought can be the same as different types of logic. Especially when it comes to our differing view points. Perhaps you could explain it a bit further?

As for the video, I'm glad you agree with my analogy. I watched the entire video all the way to JFK's speech about the communists and would have found it very hard to take seriously without the text comments I mentioned. All the video is saying is that these people are using similar symbols to each other. So what?

All this theory boils down to is people using the same symbols. Should we label any one who uses Cyrillic as a communist or even Russian? Obviously not. The same applies to illuminati symbols.


I'm not being shallow or inaccurate in the least. It's all too easy to be a pessimist but the facts don't allow it. Ask this guy. Hans Rosling gives a great talk depicting how, if you look at the statistics and not just Trocaire adverts, life in the third is getting better and, apart from the odd dip in the trends, it always has been.

Life is crap if you only look at the crap. If you compare it to how bad things used to be you get a clearer more accurate picture. I never said life is good for people in third world countries, just that it is getting better. I'm puzzled as to why you would think that that's inaccurate, let alone shallow.

So . . just to keep things on track I'm going to repeat this point.
All this theory boils down to is people using the same symbols. Should we label any one who uses Cyrillic as a communist or even Russian? Obviously not. The same applies to illuminati symbols.

WakeUp

Ok Bunny id rather not go all dictionary on you but because you have asked me to go into more detail I kinda have too, to back up my point I’m not trying to be a smart arse. There are a number of definitions of the word “logic” one of them being; “a particular method of reasoning or argumentation” its possible for people to reason in their own way or use separate logic to the person or situation they are discussing/talking about.

Like I said in my last post I didn’t put the video up for what he was saying it was for the images, the thread is about illuminati free advertising that is why I posted it to be honest I couldn’t care less what he had to say or his comments if you are familiar with the subject that being the “illuminati” the pyramid & eye are symbols associated with them and the video I posted highlights them in the movie industry.

Maybe shallow was a bit unfair of me this is probably not the thread to go into detail about world poverty levels but I’ll reply to your comments. Yes it’s a good presentation but to state that the facts don’t allow questioning of your comments or Roslings presentation is way off the mark. To be honest I can produce “data” too. If you want to talk more about this you can PM me but lets not take the thread of course.:)

Youre right the theory boils down to illuminati symbols being used in the music industry and hollyhood communism and Russians don’t really come into it. I would disagree with you saying the same applies to illuminati symbols because it doesn’t in my opinion. Communism is a well known ideology and communist symbolism known too. The illuminati is an alleged secret society and their symbolism ( pyramid & eye ) not so well known. So all this alleged secret society symbolism in the music industry and hollyhood to me is fair game for questioning and discussion I cant really see how youre missing the point of the thread and attempting to make analogies that aren’t there too make.

DeBunny

Well thanks for "going all dictionary on me". Did you read the link you posted?
The following is from the cultural definition of logic as we're not dealing with the science or computing definition. Is fair ti say that we're dealing with the cultural definition of logic?

Logic
The branch of philosophy dealing with the principles of reasoning. Classical logic, as taught in ancient Greece and Rome, systematized rules for deduction. The modern scientific and philosophical logic of deduction has become closely allied to mathematics, especially in showing how the foundations of mathematics lie in logic.

Perhaps this is what you're looking for?

Could you post a video that shows that the people are conspiring in some way rather than just following a meme? I still haven't seen a convincing argument to even suggest there's a conspiracy.

The "data" you produced is for one year. Like I said, life is tough for people in the third world but it is getting better when you compare it to past years. A graph at the end of the page you linked shows a steady decline in poverty levels over the last two decades. The fact that you don't read your own links properly would explain why you're failing to understand my points. If "they" rule the world then they're doing a pretty good job all considered.

Have you read the OP of this thread? I agree completely with it! How on earth am I missing the point of it? And of course it's fair game for discussion. That's what we're doing.

I wasn't talking about communist or Russian symbolics I was talking about Cyrillic.
As far as I can see the use of illuminati symbolism is a meme, which is why I was comparing it to memes such as the use of Cyrillic and the Wilhelm scream. Non of which require a conspiracy.
Can you explain why the use of illuminati symbolism is a conspiracy and not a meme?

WakeUp

DeBunny wrote: »

Well thanks for "going all dictionary on me". Did you read the link you posted?
The following is from the cultural definition of logic as we're not dealing with the science or computing definition. Is fair ti say that we're dealing with the cultural definition of logic?
Perhaps this is what you're looking for?

As far as Im concerned you are going way over the top with this you just wont let it go for reasons only known to you, your and my understanding of the term logic and how it may be used or applied differ. Lets just agree to disagree, and no thats not what I was looking for Ive explained to you twice my reasons for using the term in the first place.

DeBunny wrote: »

Could you post a video that shows that the people are conspiring in some way rather than just following a meme? I still haven't seen a convincing argument to even suggest there's a conspiracy.

No. As I allluded too in a previous post it is speculation on my part. Could you post a video to 100% prove there isnt a conspiracy going on? Course you cant.

DeBunny wrote: »

The "data" you produced is for one year. Like I said, life is tough for people in the third world but it is getting better when you compare it to past years. A graph at the end of the page you linked shows a steady decline in poverty levels over the last two decades. The fact that you don't read your own links properly would explain why you're failing to understand my points. If "they" rule the world then they're doing a pretty good job all considered.

I understand the points you are making clearly but there is still a massive disparity in wealth and quality of life throughout the world that hasnt changed and as far as Im concerned it shouldnt exist in the first place. Also, the presentation you linked and findings by Rosling are open to conjecture as alluded to by posters in the comments section under the video. Nothing is black and white.

DeBunny wrote: »

Have you read the OP of this thread? I agree completely with it! How on earth am I missing the point of it? And of course it's fair game for discussion. That's what we're doing.

Maybe I took you up wrong on that I thought you might have been dismissing the whole notion of anything being afoot if thats not the case then fair enough point taken.

DeBunny wrote: »

I wasn't talking about communist or Russian symbolics I was talking about Cyrillic.
As far as I can see the use of illuminati symbolism is a meme, which is why I was comparing it to memes such as the use of Cyrillic and the Wilhelm scream. Non of which require a conspiracy.
Can you explain why the use of illuminati symbolism is a conspiracy and not a meme?

Ok if thats what you think then show me your reasoning for believing its a meme why do you think thats the case?

DeBunny

WakeUp wrote: »

As far as Im concerned you are going way over the top with this you just wont let it go for reasons only known to you, your and my understanding of the term logic and how it may be used or applied differ. Lets just agree to disagree, and no thats not what I was looking for Ive explained to you twice my reasons for using the term in the first place.

In fairness W.U you're the one who went "all dictionary" I'm not going over the top at all. My understanding of the word logic is the one found in the dictionary. You're just making stuff up.

WakeUp wrote: »

No. As I allluded too in a previous post it is speculation on my part. Could you post a video to 100% prove there isnt a conspiracy going on? Course you cant.

I didn't ask you to prove any thing 100%. Any way, you're the one who is speculating that there's a conspiracy so the burden of proof is on you. Can you explain why you think it is a conspiracy? Just a little something to back up the speculation would be nice.

WakeUp wrote: »

I understand the points you are making clearly but there is still a massive disparity in wealth and quality of life throughout the world that hasnt changed and as far as Im concerned it shouldnt exist in the first place. Also, the presentation you linked and findings by Rosling are open to conjecture as alluded to by posters in the comments section under the video. Nothing is black and white.

Lots of things are black and white.
Of all of the comments below the video I couldn't find any that offered statistics to the contrary. Can you point me in direction of some information that disagrees with what Rosling's data shows? I'd be genuinely interested. Yes the rich are getting richer, but so are the poor.

WakeUp wrote: »

Maybe I took you up wrong on that I thought you might have been dismissing the whole notion of anything being afoot if thats not the case then fair enough point taken.
Ok if thats what you think then show me your reasoning for believing its a meme why do you think thats the case?

Thanks, thats very reasonable, so even though you've ignored my question and I've already explained my view point I'll explain my self a bit further.

First of all, just so we're all singing off the same hymn sheet, a meme is basically a self replicating pattern. The word is usually used in relation to human behaviours such as language, rituals, fashion, etc. They can be compared to viruses or genes in that they reproduce on their own and evolve in relation to their environment. Can you see how Cyrillic or our own alphabet or the Wilhelm scream or the English language are memes? They don't require a conspiracy to be used over and over again.

So . . . the original illumati (which more than likely did exist) were a bunch of powerful men who formed a club or society. Like any club, society or company, they needed a "brand image" which would represent them. Even as children, we form gangs and clubs and and come with symbols to represent our gang. It's part of human nature. When I was a kid we used a skull and cross bones. Does that make me a pirate? Was I conspiring with pirates? (I wish. yarr) No. It just means I had been "infected" by the self replicating meme of the skull and cross bones.

So the illuminati used symbols which powerful people before them had used. The eye in particular is a very powerful symbol as it is easily recognised by our pattern seeking brain. All the symbols they used represent power, knowledge and wealth. When the organisation faded away, the symbols/memes they used lived on and were used again and again by people who wanted to be associated with power, knowledge and wealth. People like rappers, popstars and record label bosses. And if those symbols have the added value of generating some free marketing via vocal CTers then happy days.

Just because different people use the same symbols does not mean they have anything to do with each other. If Jay Z is a member of the illuminati then I'm Long John Silver.

Honestly now, which of our two explanations do you think is more likely?

Torakx

I can agree with the last part of your post.
I think Jay-z is using these symbols for fame and money nothing else.

This doesnt mean there isnt or is an illuminatti or freemasons though.
Just that he knows about it.

DeBunny

When I say Jay Z I include any one who uses so called illuminati symbols. I have never seen any thing to say that all these companies, film makers, rappers, etc have anything in common other than that they are using symbols related to power, knowledge, and wealth. Thats all there is to it. They don't have anything else in common.

Also, most film makers would learn about Greek and Roman civilisation in art school so it's not surprising that they're aware of ancient symbolism.

And, as another poster mentioned earlier, if you compared illuminati symbolism to all the other symbolism used in the world I'm sure the occurrence of illuminati symbolism would be way down on the list.
If we use conspiracy theory reasoning we'd have to assume that all the occurrences of the smiley face symbol is some sort of raver conspiracy.

It's far too complicated, not to mention pointless, for it all to be a conspiracy. It bares all the hallmarks of a meme.
Memes almost have a life of their own so It's not surprising that they're mistaken for intelligently driven conspiracies.

Massively complicated yet seemingly pointless, global conspiracy or . . . just another meme? Seriously lads, which one is more likely?

Torakx

Like you said this could be me being a raver or it could mean something else.
To find out you might have to research who i am and the context in which it is used.
To me the same applies to symbolism.
If Madonna does something in her video symbolic, i might presume its because she is highly religious and follows the kaballa where as Jay-z afaik isnt religious and just a guy doing everything in his power to appear cool and make money.
Madonna has absolutely no need to do this as she is a massive star when Jay-z was still in nappies.
So i stillam going to say its all shades of grey oh smiley face!

Brown Bomber

DeBunny wrote: »

When I say Jay Z I include any one who uses so called illuminati symbols.

What do you mean "so called illuminati symbols"? They are illuminati symbols.

DeBunny wrote: »

I have never seen any thing to say that all these companies, film makers, rappers, etc have anything in common other than that they are using symbols

I've never seen Peru. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

DeBunny wrote: »

related to power, knowledge, and wealth.

Well no, you need to educate yourself further on the symbols and there meanings as the symbols mean a great deal more than this.

DeBunny wrote: »

Thats all there is to it. They don't have anything else in common.

According to you and with respect your apparently superficial knowledge.

I'll give you a real life example of Jay-Z and dodgy freemason dealings.

Probe Of Deal To Build Queens 'Racino' Ensnares Gov. Paterson And ... Jay-Z?

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/aqueduct_racino_probes_snares_gov_paterson_and_jay.php#more

The above mentioned Gov Patterson is a freemason.

A Freemason Returns to the Albany Helm

By JENNIFER 8. LEE
Here is a little-known fact about New York’s accidental governor, David A. Paterson: He is the first Freemason to hold that office in more than 60 years. He joined the fraternal order in 2002, his office confirmed. In fact, he is actually the 20th New York governor to be a member, according to the Grand Lodge of New York (which is still on a public-relations binge to demystify itself).
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/27/a-freemason-returns-to-the-albany-helm/

Jay-Z seems to me to be an overzealous freemason. If the Illuminati currently exist would Jay Z be a member? No chance! A black man from housing projects in Brooklyn amongst the elite of the elite. Ha! Correct me if I am wrong but I assume you are unaware of of freemasonry's roots in Jewish mysticism and the racism contained in the Talmud, Zohar and Kaballah teachings. Jay-Z would be seen as no more than an animal to them.

DeBunny wrote: »

Also, most film makers would learn about Greek and Roman civilisation in art school so it's not surprising that they're aware of ancient symbolism.

This is not relevant at all.

DeBunny wrote: »

And, as another poster mentioned earlier, if you compared illuminati symbolism to all the other symbolism used in the world I'm sure the occurrence of illuminati symbolism would be way down on the list.

How could you be sure about something that will never, ever be verified. Comparing all the symbolism in the world??

That statement doesn't really contain any meaning or substance at all.

DeBunny wrote: »

If we use conspiracy theory reasoning we'd have to assume that all the occurrences of the smiley face symbol is some sort of raver conspiracy.

1. what is "conspiracy theory reasoning"?
2. Your making further false comparisons.

Maybe I can help you out?

A much more accurate comparison would be gang members flashing their groups hand signs. Because of this you get idiots flashing the same signs becuase they think it's cool or whatever in photo's. Does this mean that everyone who flashes the gang sign is a member of the gang? No. Does it mean that if you flash it you aren't in the gang? No. Does it mean there is no gang? No.

DeBunny wrote: »

It's far too complicated, not to mention pointless, for it all to be a conspiracy. It bares all the hallmarks of a meme.
Memes almost have a life of their own so It's not surprising that they're mistaken for intelligently driven conspiracies.

Massively complicated yet seemingly pointless, global conspiracy or . . . just another meme? Seriously lads, which one is more likely?

Secret society members since the time of Sir Francis Bacon at least have left notice of their initiation in their literature, architecture, art or whatever so that initiates can easily recognise each other through their work and it would be hidden in plain sight from the clueless profane.

This could simply be a continuation of that tradition.

Alternatively what you call a meme could just as easily be as a sigil. You don't have to believe in the powers of satan, demons, black magic and all that jazz for others to believe in it.

This is the first definition of magic I found

1. Allegedly supernatural charm, spell or other method to dominate natural forces.

it could be that these people are trying to "dominate natural forces" through their symbols and public rituals. Unlikely though imo.

More likely than this imo is the videos/songs are a form of mass mood alteration.

From a 2007 study from University College London:

Dr Bahador Bahrami, of the UCL Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience and the UCL Department of Psychology, said: “What’s interesting here is that your brain does log things that you aren’t even aware of and can’t ever become aware of. We show that there is a brain response in the primary visual cortex to subliminal images that attract our attention – without us having the impression of having seen anything. These findings point to the sort of impact that subliminal advertising may have on the brain. What our study doesn’t address is whether this would then influence you to go out and buy a product. I believe that it’s likely that subliminal advertising may affect our decisions – but that is just speculation at this point.”
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/notaware[
http://www.psychol.ucl.ac.uk/attention.lab/reprints/Bahrami-Lavie-Rees-2007.pdf/QUOTE]

And this week a study proving that listening to music effects the dopamine levels of the listener.
http://news.discovery.com/human/music-dopamine-happiness-brain-110110.html

DeBunny

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What do you mean "so called illuminati symbols"? They are illuminati symbols.

Eyes, pyramids, hexagons, pentagrams, etc, etc, etc have all been used for thousands of years by various, disparate civilizations, organisations, gangs and corporations. the illuminati (if they exist) don't hold the copyright on any of the symbols accredited to them.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I've never seen Peru. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I agree, you may however, have seen photographs and satellite images, looked at maps, talked to people who have been there, read books and so on. When it comes to the illuminati, little to none of this evidence exists. Anything I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot because I used to believe this stuff, all just amounts to speculation and what ifs.
I'm not saying for sure that the illuminati don't exist I'm just saying that I haven't seen any evidence that it does.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Well no, you need to educate yourself further on the symbols and there meanings as the symbols mean a great deal more than this.

I "need" to "educate" myself in something I don't believe exists? Something completely useless to my life? something that, if it did exist, would seem to be beneficial to mankind? I'd much rather spend my time educating myself in webdesign or business or mechanics or the fine art of tiddlywinks for that matter. . . . Then again, here I am. :pac:
If I see some compelling evidence that doesn't amount to speculation and wishful thinking, I might spend some time on it, but going by what you've posted so far that doesn't seem likely.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

According to you and with respect your apparently superficial knowledge.
I'll give you a real life example of Jay-Z and dodgy freemason dealings.
Probe Of Deal To Build Queens 'Racino' Ensnares Gov. Paterson And ... Jay-Z?
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/aqueduct_racino_probes_snares_gov_paterson_and_jay.php#more
The above mentioned Gov Patterson is a freemason.

Jay-Z seems to me to be an overzealous freemason. If the Illuminati currently exist would Jay Z be a member? No chance! A black man from housing projects in Brooklyn amongst the elite of the elite. Ha! Correct me if I am wrong but I assume you are unaware of of freemasonry's roots in Jewish mysticism and the racism contained in the Talmud, Zohar and Kaballah teachings. Jay-Z would be seen as no more than an animal to them.

So, does this mean we agree?

I'm confused. First you say Jay Z seems to be an overzealous freemason, then, in the same paragraph, you say that because of freemasonry's roots in racist, Judaic beliefs (dag blasted jooz:p) he would be excluded? Which one is it?

As for his "dodgy freemason dealings"; he's a former crack dealer turned business man who allegedly had some questionable dealings with a corrupt American politician. Hardly a global conspiracy to enslave humanity, is it?
If you were to read the headline alone it seems a lot more dubious than it actually is. Jay z's links to this story are tenuous. He wouldn't even be mentioned if he wasn't famous. It doesn't even say he's in the freemasons, let alone the illuminati.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This is not relevant at all.

oooooh yes is!

Why the fup do I have to explain this. We are discussing the use of ancient symbolism in modern media.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

How could you be sure about something that will never, ever be verified. Comparing all the symbolism in the world??
This statement doesn't really contain any meaning or substance at all.

fyp

Nah only messin' with ya. Look, you obviously don't have to compare all the symbolism in the world. Just pick a different memes or reoccurring symbols that aren't related to mystical jews and do a comparative study.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

1. what is "conspiracy theory reasoning"?
2. Your making further false comparisons.

1. Lots of different people are using similar symbols therefore they are conspiring.
2. Imprecise yes, false no.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Maybe I can help you out?

A much more accurate comparison would be gang members flashing their groups hand signs. Because of this you get idiots flashing the same signs becuase they think it's cool or whatever in photo's. Does this mean that everyone who flashes the gang sign is a member of the gang? No. Does it mean that if you flash it you aren't in the gang? No. Does it mean there is no gang? No.

wow, that's actually a great help. I genuinely wish I'd thought of that analogy. It strengthens my point. I would even agree that it doesn't disprove the gang's existence. I just haven't seen any evidence to suggest that the gang still exists.
A long time after the last blood or crip is gone people will still be making those stupid gang signs. It doesn't mean they have any thing to do with the bloods or the crips, or even that they are conspiring with other idiots flashing the signs. Like wise with the illuminati and the signs that have lived on after their demise. There will always be gangs who use similar or even the same symbols. Like you said, it does't mean there's any relationship between them.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Secret society members since the time of Sir Francis Bacon at least have left notice of their initiation in their literature, architecture, art or whatever so that initiates can easily recognise each other through their work and it would be hidden in plain sight from the clueless profane.

This could simply be a continuation of that tradition.

Yeah, could be. (not being sarky btw)
More likely that it just started or reinvigorated the meme

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Alternatively what you call a meme could just as easily be as a sigil. You don't have to believe in the powers of satan, demons, black magic and all that jazz for others to believe in it.

This is the first definition of magic I found it could be that these people are trying to "dominate natural forces" through their symbols and public rituals. Unlikely though imo.

So unlikely it's not worth mentioning or discussing.
Maybe it's fairies. Lets discuss that. (now I'm being sarky :pac:)
If you're going to speculate at least keep in the realm of reality.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

More likely than this imo is the videos/songs are a form of mass mood alteration.

From a 2007 study from University College London:

Dr Bahador Bahrami, of the UCL Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience and the UCL Department of Psychology, said: “What’s interesting here is that your brain does log things that you aren’t even aware of and can’t ever become aware of. We show that there is a brain response in the primary visual cortex to subliminal images that attract our attention – without us having the impression of having seen anything. These findings point to the sort of impact that subliminal advertising may have on the brain. What our study doesn’t address is whether this would then influence you to go out and buy a product. I believe that it’s likely that subliminal advertising may affect our decisions – but that is just speculation at this point.”
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/notaware[
http://www.psychol.ucl.ac.uk/attention.lab/reprints/Bahrami-Lavie-Rees-2007.pdf/QUOTE]

More likely than "magic" or more likely than a meme?

I'm not dismissing that there could be a conspiracy, just that I haven't seen any evidence beyond wild speculation to suggest other wise. Your post hasn't changed that.

The study happened three years ago? How has it progressed? Any study I've seen regarding subliminal messaging and brain washing have shown that the effects are too short lived for it to be of much practical use.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And this week a study proving that listening to music effects the dopamine levels of the listener.
http://news.discovery.com/human/music-dopamine-happiness-brain-110110.html

So the illuminati are conspiring to make us all happier? Told you they were nice people.

Interesting study but not surprising. Bird song changes peoples mood.

Answer me this; which do you think is more likely? Global conspiracy to enslave humanity, etc or . . . meme?

MRPRO03

What are peoples thoughts on the first tarot card in this new volvo ad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq9Ej56SoD8

Torakx

I dont know alot about tarot cards to be honest.
What is it you see in the first one?
I see the road aka future leading to the sun in the horizon but not sure what that is supposed to represent especially in tarot cards.

To Debunny, i believe BB said jay-z was not in the illuminatti.He did say he thought he was an overzealous freemason but i wouldnt even credit him with that myself.I think he is a wannabe or just using it like a child copying a gang hand flashed gesture.

This gang we are talking about that your not sure exists.I presume you dont mean freemasons and you are refering to the "illuminatti".
I am not 100% sure myself because proof is kind of hard to find unless you count history books and references by freemasons or rosacrucians or something.
You could well say that the illuminatti is just another international fraternity that most people have no clue about.Members could probably picked from other secret societies around the world and this fraternity could have a longterm plan in action for the last few hundred years.
Like a religion a philosophy or idea or tradition can be kept alive for a very long time through many generations of catholics,freemasons,illuminatti,families etc etc

I think these days its more likely than not there is such an organisation because of all the "progress" with international business.
I think its very likely a group of bussiness men taken from various soceties and orgs could have teamed up.
Since im talking about the likely hood of that happening and international bussiness i reckon back in 1700's the group did exist and possibly changed or died out and was reawakened around the 1800-1900's
Either way i am pretty sure there is some kind of elite group who could represent this illuminatti by way of its actions and seeking a global government run by themselves.This was pretty much the goal of the illuminati originally and it appears there is an international group doing just that.
You can call them foundation x or illuminatti or freemasons or the disney corporation lol, but there is a group with this aim.
Here is an interesting video taken from the english parliament.The first speaker im not sure of his input or connection.The second speaker says some interesting things that remind me of such a group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCT7L3-WsVE

Now when we consider first the symbols we are talking about for example the pyramid with the illuminated eye above it.We are all thinking of illuminati symbolism and some saying this group doesnt exist.
And also that its unlikely they do!

I cant see why anyone who has done enough research would come to this conclusion.To me its much more likely they do exist than not.
Why for example would a government or a government approved agency print this very same symbolism onto their money?



Its an inside government joke flashing gang symbols aswell just like Jay-z and if so what would the purpose be in the case of the one dollar bill?
Or is it more likely these symbols represent ideologies and groups that are actually in existance right now?

Answer me this; which do you think is more likely? Global conspiracy to world government, etc or . . . meme?

MRPRO03

Torakx wrote: »

What is it you see in the first one?

The road is in the shape of a pyramid with the shine of sun coming from the tip of it, plus with the caption, ''The Future''.

Torakx

Ye i noticed a vague pyramid shape to it but didnt mention it as it looks a little..well vague.A road leading into the sun on the horizon is a popular image too.
Im suprised they used tarot cards fullstop actually.