Advertising now allowed?

KamiKazi

Just wondering what other people think of this thread: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056145282

The poster in question clearly works for the business he's promoting, is a blind eye turned because he is a moderator or is there some other reason I'm aware of?

It's a bit hypocritical to have mods hand out bans for advertising so easily but allow a fellow moderator post an advertisement for his employer.

Zaph

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, I'm looking into it now.

AckwelFoley

Its not hypocritical. The mod is a valueable member of that community and is offering a service.. If the advertising was all day every day and over the top, perhaps, but ive seen where established members that contribute to a forum have been able to promote themselves - normally a little more discreatly than this however, my opinion stands none the less

Personally i dont see a problem with it - i do see a problem if the only thing a particular member contributes to the site is promotion for their own business, but the odd plug here and there is not a problem.

Overheal

snyper wrote: »

Its not hypocritical. The mod is a valueable member of that community and is offering a service.. If the advertising was all day every day and over the top, perhaps, but ive seen where established members that contribute to a forum have been able to promote themselves - normally a little more discreatly than this however, my opinion stands none the less

Personally i dont see a problem with it - i do see a problem if the only thing a particular member contributes to the site is promotion for their own business, but the odd plug here and there is not a problem.

Presumably though he should have asked a CMod or Admin before doing it though, just as any top-contributing registered user would have been requested to run it by the forum moderator before posting such a thread.

looksee

Its only the same as a very conspicuous bit of advertising on the Waterford County forum for a nightclub (I think it is). However its a poster with a long record of posting and its offering something that is of significant local interest. That's a whole different story to someone popping up just to advertise on a first post. If it doesn't bother the owners of the site, it doesn't bother me!

KamiKazi

snyper wrote: »

Its not hypocritical. The mod is a valueable member of that community and is offering a service.. If the advertising was all day every day and over the top, perhaps, but ive seen where established members that contribute to a forum have been able to promote themselves - normally a little more discreatly than this however, my opinion stands none the less

looksee wrote: »

Its only the same as a very conspicuous bit of advertising on the Waterford County forum for a nightclub (I think it is). However its a poster with a long record of posting and its offering something that is of significant local interest. That's a whole different story to someone popping up just to advertise on a first post. If it doesn't bother the owners of the site, it doesn't bother me!

A line has to be drawn somewhere though.

A thread yesterday was deleted because it was a guy advertising exhaust repairs. That's a pretty niche service in a relatively small forum of the board, by your standards that would be OK too no? Not having a go at the Motorcycles mods BTW, just using it as an example.

AckwelFoley

KamiKazi wrote: »

A line has to be drawn somewhere though.

A thread yesterday was deleted because it was a guy advertising exhaust repairs. That's a pretty niche service in a relatively small forum of the board, by your standards that would be OK too no? Not having a go at the Motorcycles mods BTW, just using it as an example.

How long was the guy a member and was he a well known established contributor?

KamiKazi

snyper wrote: »

How long was the guy a member and was he a well known established contributor?

I can't remember TBH, and it doesn't matter anyway. Advertising is either allowed or it isn't.

LoLth

KamiKazi wrote: »

I can't remember TBH, and it doesn't matter anyway. Advertising is either allowed or it isn't.

Its not a clear cut as that.

Users should get something out of the community if they've made an effort to put something in to it. We allow users to put a discrete advertisement in their signature and quite a few times I've given the ok for a poster to post a business related event or a fundraiser etc after they've passed it by me (in a mod capacity).

Its the users that sign up specifically to advertise, or those that lurk and only post when they see a benefit for themselves that the advertising ban covers.

Obviously boards.ie is a business and as such it would be great if all advertisers bought banner space but it is also a group of users and if one user has been an active member of the forum, then I, personally, think there's no harm in allowign a little leeway to help them out.. as long as the mod of the forum is ok with it and its a one off or rare occurrance.

In this case though, as Zaph says, we are discussing it as I dont think we've ever had a mod promote an event or product the mod has been directly tied to before (I'm open to correction on that one if anyone knows otherwise)

Steve

The irony of this thread it it has just increased the scope of the thread in question from a local (albeit popular) forum to a sitewide audience

My take on the matter is that a long time net contributor should be given leeway the odd time.

I'm making the assumption here that the OP sought and received permission from the local mods for the thread.

Jazzy

ah the old "one rule for some if we happen to like them" routine. a boards classic

LoLth

Jazzy wrote: »

ah the old "one rule for some if we happen to like them" routine. a boards classic

nope, its one rule for all "Dont take from the community until you've contributed to it". Doesnt matter if I like someone or not whether a user is allowed advertise an event or function is purely based on their contributions up to the time of the request.

28064212

LoLth wrote: »

nope, its one rule for all "Dont take from the community until you've contributed to it". Doesnt matter if I like someone or not whether a user is allowed advertise an event or function is purely based on their contributions up to the time of the request.

No problem with that. The issue appears to be more around the question of whether the mod actually sought permission from another Mod/CMod. A "top-poster" would be unlikely to be allowed post similar without obtaining permission first

KamiKazi

LoLth wrote: »

nope, its one rule for all "Dont take from the community until you've contributed to it". Doesnt matter if I like someone or not whether a user is allowed advertise an event or function is purely based on their contributions up to the time of the request.

Can you show me where in any of the charters it says that?

LoLth

I sincerely doubt its in the charters. Its more of a "mod behaviour" or "mod role" type of thing. can you show me where any of the charters say exactly what type of post will be edited? or thread locked? Its the task we trust the mods to do and the responsibility the mods take upon themselves when they volunteer to help.

Not everythign has to be written down to be applied. I have guidelines for how I should behave and what actions I should take on boards, more than I had as a cmod which in turn had more than those in place for a mod. these aren't written down but have evolved as part of the role I agreed to undertake.

There is a "no signing up to advertise" rule in the terms of use. To determine where the distinction between "signing up to advertise" and "signed up member advertising" we rely on the mods opinion and discretion of the moderator who know the individual forums and its members better than we do.

Atomic Pineapple

Had LIGHTENING not brought the service up in a thread I would have anyway after spotting it and if I hadn't someone else would have. Its not a post that is blatantly advertising to make money.

Its a post highlighting a new option for motorists who have always thought about going on track but were not sure, a topic that has popped up in the motoring forums before.

I think posts like this have to be welcomed by members who contribute to the forums, its not a black and white no advertising allowed rule. If Lightening had one post and came on and said I sell training lessons at mondello, here's my website, then its completely different.

The fact he is a mod has nothing to do with it.

28064212

draffodx wrote: »

I think posts like this have to be welcomed by members who contribute to the forums, its not a black and white no advertising allowed rule. If Lightening had one post and came on and said I sell training lessons at mondello, here's my website, then its completely different.

If Lightning had 1,000 (or 3,739) posts but wasn't a mod and came on and said I sell training lessons at mondello without clearing it with the mods, he more than likely would have been at least reprimanded and the thread would likely have been deleted

Gary ITR

I would just like to point out that not one person actually reported this post

Atomic Pineapple

28064212 wrote: »

If Lightning had 1,000 (or 3,739) posts but wasn't a mod and came on and said I sell training lessons at mondello without clearing it with the mods, he more than likely would have been at least reprimanded and the thread would likely have been deleted

He didn't say that though, he simply highlighted a new option thats available at Mondello, had I posted it would you be accusing me of advertising or being a part of Mondello?

Its clear that he posted it as a member of the motors forum and not as an employee of Mondello.

LoLth

draffodx wrote: »

Had LIGHTENING not brought the service up in a thread I would have anyway after spotting it and if I hadn't someone else would have. Its not a post that is blatantly advertising to make money.

Its a post highlighting a new option for motorists who have always thought about going on track but were not sure, a topic that has popped up in the motoring forums before.

I think posts like this have to be welcomed by members who contribute to the forums, its not a black and white no advertising allowed rule. If Lightening had one post and came on and said I sell training lessons at mondello, here's my website, then its completely different.

The fact he is a mod has nothing to do with it.

Boards is a resource, I think its perfectly fair for users to gain some benefit from being a user on boards. If that means they are notified about a product or service that has become available in their area of interest, great. It makes the forum more useful (literature has had notices on book clubs, book signings, notifications of cheap books and secondhand bookstores for example).

There's two parts to this isue:

1. notifications and advertising: we have to control it somehow , otherwise the whole place will be awash with "buy this!" "look at this!" "I dont know anything about cars so here's a link to my website where I sell shoes!" and users would find it very annoying to try to follow a conversation and weed out the shills. We control it by
a: offering advertisers the option of buying banner space
b: allowing registered commercial rep account to announce events/offers in their commercial enterprise form time to time
c: trying to find the balance between "useful resource" and "spamarama"

Of these, c: is the most challenging and so far, the basic guideline of "good contributor + member of the community = leeway in advertising as long as its not taking the piss" has served us well.

mods contribute to boards.ie, its one of the pre-reqs for being a mod so obviously a higher percentage of mods are going to be allowed post notices. I think the fact that we dont see more frequent posts from mods advertising events and services that they are related in speaks volumes about the general level of respect mods have for the community.

2. Seeking permission to post: now here's the sticky one and its the bit we are discussing in the admin forum as it is a policy issue that we have not had to deal with before.

Mod = contributor & member of community... thats a given.
good contributor is allowed post , within reason, advertisements as long as it goes past a mod of the relevant forum.
what if the contributor *is* the mod of the relevant forum? who exactly should it be passed by? what happens if a co-mod objects? what happens if the cat mod wants to post an advertisement? can the mods oppose it? can admins post ads? can an admin ok an ad for a forum?

These are all under discussion but I would say, if the mods of the forum gave the go ahead, then its all good. if they didnt, in this instance, then we need to make that requirement clear and inform the mods so that it doesnt happen again.

does it matter if the poster is a mod or not? well, not in terms of the post but it does in terms of who should be notified (more of a procedural issue than anyhting else).

note though: the discussion among the admins is not "how do we stop mods from posting X" but "how do we bring mods posting of X more in line with the way users get to post X"

28064212

draffodx wrote: »

He didn't say that though, he simply highlighted a new option thats available at Mondello,

It was the 'we' part of his post made it clear he was an employee.

draffodx wrote: »

had I posted it would you be accusing me of advertising or being a part of Mondello?

No. But you didn't. An employee did. Has Boards changed it's advertising policies? Are you now allowed advertise your business without clearing it with a mod so long as you have a lot of posts? Or is it just if you are a mod?

Orion

If he had posted it in Bargain Alerts would you have had a problem?

AckwelFoley

28064212 wrote: »

. Has Boards changed it's advertising policies? Are you now allowed advertise your business without clearing it with a mod so long as you have a lot of posts? Or is it just if you are a mod?

Im around pretty much the same lenght oftime as you are and nothing has changed from what lolth has said and as long as im here and aware of it that has been the case.

I know members that are tilers i know members that are DIY'ers that do jobs, i know forum members that are computer tec guys, photograpers, web design, mechanics and so on, i know this because they have made it clear in posts and sigs over the period of my time here its not blatant, it may be only 1 post in 1000, but its there and i dont think the vastmajority of people have an issue with it

The Motor forum is pretty tight knit forum, as is the construction and planning and other forums of similar size - same ol faces and the likely hood is that most regular forum users know what each other does.

Perhaps he should have requested permission to post the thread or seeked consencus from the other mods before stating the thread, but to be honest, it wouldnt make a difference to the outcome other than the unwritten rule was followed. I dont know the mod in question, im really unbiased, but i dont see the porblem, and have yet to come across a genuine double standard - as i said i do see the problem if anybody joins and their sole purpose seems to be flogging their wares, but this is clearly not the case.

Jay lad

I'm new on this site and I was reading a thread concerning the cheapest/best place to get coal in limerick.So i posted that I was in that trade and to just pm me for price's ect..Then I get a pm ''warning'' saying I couldn't advertise??I was clearly just trying to help someone out and my post was snip't!!Ye shouldn't have rules for one then ''special'' rules for others.I'm staff on another site but not going to say which one as that could be seen as ADVERTISING??

Steve

Jay lad wrote: »

I'm new on this site and I was reading a thread concerning the cheapest/best place to get coal in limerick.So i posted that I was in that trade and to just pm me for price's ect..Then I get a pm ''warning'' saying I couldn't advertise??I was clearly just trying to help someone out and my post was snip't!!Ye shouldn't have rules for one then ''special'' rules for others.I'm staff on another site but not going to say which one as that could be seen as ADVERTISING??

LoLth wrote: »

There is a "no signing up to advertise" rule in the terms of use.

Your first post on the site was advertising your service - ergo you signed up just to post that.
Had you been a good contributor to the forum in question for a reasonable amount of time then your post would probably not have been seen as spam.

Simple as that.

-Chris-

KamiKazi wrote: »

Just wondering what other people think of this thread: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056145282

The poster in question clearly works for the business he's promoting, is a blind eye turned because he is a moderator or is there some other reason I'm aware of?

It's a bit hypocritical to have mods hand out bans for advertising so easily but allow a fellow moderator post an advertisement for his employer.

a) he's not a moderator in Motors (motorsport isn't in the Motors category) so he's not posting in a forum he moderates. He's a normal user and we treat him as such.

b) it's the first I've seen of this thread because, as Onkle's pointed out, it wasn't reported. Would you not report the post, or PM a Motors mod, so we can make a decision on it?

c) is it really fair to be starting a feedback thread about the hypocrisy of mods when you haven't done anything (i.e. reporting the post) to aid us in attending to this even though, after 5 years and 5,000 posts, you'd think you'd know the correct procedure by now?

---

To answer your original question - what do I think of it?

I don't really like it, I think it should be locked, I don't like double standards.
I just wish I could have had this conversation with my fellow mods in our dedicated forum rather than hanging Lightning's dirty laundry in public like this.

KamiKazi

What would reporting the thread have achieved?

I thought this forum was to create discussion and debate about how Boards is run? Surely this is the better option when it comes to dealing with this?

-Chris-

Well for starters it would have allowed us to discuss this yesterday and the thread would be dealt with by now.

Leaving this thread open isn't a policy decision (yet), and therefore the discussion about it is largely unnecessary

You're questioning the logic of a decision that hasn't been made.

LoLth

the first step of any issue should ALWAYS be a report to the forum mod. Its really the polite thing to do.

While this thread did bring the issue to the admins attention, the mods could have done so just as easily or it could have afforded them the option of discussing it with the rest of the mods and coming up with a proposal of their own before approaching the admins.

nompere

-Chris- wrote: »

To answer your original question - what do I think of it?

I don't really like it, I think it should be locked, I don't like double standards.
I just wish I could have had this conversation with my fellow mods in our dedicated forum rather than hanging Lightning's dirty laundry in public like this.

I think it is most refreshing that this is being discussed in public rather than in a private conversation between a group of mods.

KamiKazi

You agree NOT to use Boards.ie to:

* post any unsolicited or unauthorised advertising, promotional content, 'junk mail', 'spam', 'chain letters', 'pyramid schemes', or any other form of commercial publicity

From the Boards TOU.

It clearly prohibits using Boards.ie to advertise, irregardless of whether that is why you signed up or not.

Tallon

KamiKazi wrote: »

From the Boards TOU.

It clearly prohibits using Boards.ie to advertise, irregardless of whether that is why you signed up or not.

Then your signature is in violation

KamiKazi

Tallon wrote: »

Then your signature is in violation

Nope, as the forum in my signature isn't a commercial forum.

Jazzy

LoLth wrote: »

nope, its one rule for all "Dont take from the community until you've contributed to it". Doesnt matter if I like someone or not whether a user is allowed advertise an event or function is purely based on their contributions up to the time of the request.

that makes sense. I suppose i didnt really think about it in this context as its the same with LANs and stuff

Spear

KamiKazi wrote: »

From the Boards TOU.

It clearly prohibits using Boards.ie to advertise, irregardless of whether that is why you signed up or not.

You're overlooking the word unauthorised.

-Chris-

nompere wrote: »

I think it is most refreshing that this is being discussed in public rather than in a private conversation between a group of mods.

But again, I'm curious about what's being discussed. If the mods haven't discussed it and come to a decision, then how and why can you start a thread that criticises that decision?

And what's your issue with mods having a private conversation, as long as the decisions they come to are reasonable and for the benefit of the community?

KamiKazi

The mods made the decision by leaving it there.

If there was any doubt as to whether it should be allowed to stay they would have pulled it until they had discussed it and come to a decision.

-Chris-

Fair point, I've locked it now and will leave it locked until I get a consensus from the other Motors mods. I haven't deleted it as it would leave your thread here without a context.

I probably should have locked it earlier, I didn't think of it at the time.

Steve

KamiKazi wrote: »

The mods made the decision by leaving it there.

On that point: unless it's a very quiet forum (which motors is not) the mods can't be expected to read or even be aware of every thread that is posted so what you said is a bit unfair on them.
This is a community site and mods rely a lot on the community to report stuff that is out of order.
I can only speak from personal experience but between boards and adverts I'd typically read between 20 and 50 reports every day. Each report requires some thinking about to decide how best to act - some are clear cut, others are borderline and take more time to ponder.
The point I'm making is, if the thread was not reported and brought to the attention of the mods then they can't really be accused of any shortcomings by 'leaving it there'.

-Chris-

That seems like a very fair explanation tbh.

KamiKazi

OK so advertising is allowed as long as you're a contributing member of the forum.

Thanks for clearing that up.

-Chris-

I'd probably be happier if the accepted rule was along the lines of

"Advertising is banned.

In certain circumstances moderators may use their discretion and allow an established poster to advertise a service, product or event if the moderators feel it is of benefit to the community."

Tallon

Spamvertising is banned

If someone established asks a mod and is given the nod, I don't see an issue

KamiKazi

-Chris- wrote: »

"Advertising is banned.

In certain circumstances moderators may use their discretion and allow an established poster to advertise a service, product or event if the moderators feel it is of benefit to the community."

Yeah that sounds fair.

/sarcasm.

Tallon

KamiKazi wrote: »

Yeah that sounds fair.

/sarcasm.

How is it un-fair?

It's protecting the community members

-Chris-

KamiKazi wrote: »

Yeah that sounds fair.

/sarcasm.

What's unfair?

The way I see it, there's no advertising. It's simple.

But as a mod you're trying to make sure your community are getting the best experience they can, and if that means bending the "no advertising" rule every now and again in order to benefit the community, then so be it.


Really it comes down to whether the posting of the advert is for the benefit of the community or for the advertiser.

KamiKazi

It's quite simple, advertising either is allowed or it is not.

Intending to bend the rules means it IS allowed, and therefore anyone should be allowed advertise, not just those that lick the forum moderators' e-holes.

-Chris-

What would your preference be?

If there's an interesting event, product or service that I feel the community should know about, am I allowed to tell them?

Should your (and my) signature be snipped and a hard-line "no shilling" approach taken?


There's already an amount of flexibility, which leads to a grey area. I don't believe you can get rid of this flexibility (or application of discretion) without changing the system from the ground up.

Tallon

KamiKazi wrote: »

It's quite simple, advertising either is allowed or it is not.

Intending to bend the rules means it IS allowed, and therefore anyone should be allowed advertise, not just those that lick the forum moderators' e-holes.

It's not as simple as that, as was explained on page one..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70037561&postcount=9

One user cannot decide if it is allowed or not.

LoLth

Kamikazi, after more than a month you've returned to a thread and tried to revert it to the original argument ignoring any contributions that have been made by other users so far.

Chris' definition is a quite good one and I will be bringing it up with the other admins to get their opinion on a possible rule change but I certainly would not have any issues with that line being added to a forum charter. (not my call ultimately however, its more of a Dav/Darragh issue)

As Tallon has pointed out, your request for a definite black/white answer has already been dealt with.

You , rather crudely, raise the possibility of favouritism. Yes that is a risk. However mods are selected because we trust their opinion and judgement. we also trust that they are capable of avoiding the pitfalls of playing favourites (more than one mod has had to ban/caution a real life friend.. hell, I once had strong words with my RL boss ). Sometimes a mod will show favouritism unknowingly. it happens and I would hope that a co-mod would point it out to him/her when it does.

Now, your original query has been answered and discussed already. You've heard from admins, the motoring mods and the mod that posted the ad you took offense to. Are there any other relevant issues you would like to discuss on this matter?

28064212

That approach sounds good to me. The only question I would have is: what happens when mod permission isn't sought beforehand by the established poster (as in the originating case here)?