Long term effects of training/supplementation?

curadh

Was speaking with a mate today who is a doctor, and claims serious hard workouts are not good for the heart, such as benching a heavy weight that u can only get 4-5 reps with. I know all doctors believe in moderation and that but it has me thinking about all the crap we are doing to ourselves, hammering the central nervous system all week long.
Also, is it safe to be taking protein/various other stuff in high dosages so many times a day? Are we screwing around with how our system works and how it repairs itself naturally? Anyone have any reseacrh on safe use or anything?

Rycn

I'd rather be doing damage this way than doing damage by slouching around all day and night and eating muck.

itsallaboutheL

Die Big
Die Young
Dianbol

:pac:

deadlybuzzman

Id ask your friend 2 questions,
1. How many studies that didnt use flawed controls is he quoting from?
2. As regards protein, if 2 people were stranded on 2 desert islands, 1 with only carbs and fat to eat and the other with only protein and fat to eat-which would live longer?
if your friend lives a zero stress tee totaling life eating no processed foods etc Id say fair enough he might be worth listening to, however hes a doctor so chances are no.
Theres a thing, whats the life expectancy for doctors? prob not great, tell him youll quit if he does!

Medical types annoy me that way-most drink way too much yet still get preachy on whats bad for you(ive a good mats thats a doc too)
I had a nurse give out to me cos I broke my ankle playing 5 a side-I said "better to be here than in the cardiac unit!"-got no reply!

maxxie

we work hard, we play hard BOW BOW

Chet Zar

Put it to you this way...

-Compare how you feel after a good workout compared to how you feel slouching around all day or just getting minimal exercise from week to week, e.g. walking is all you do or maybe not even that.

-Compare the feeling of tiredness from being sedentary to the satisfying, 'released' feeling after training.

-Think of how if you can push your body to the limits (sometimes, that is) and overall get good intensive workouts in, and about how if it can adapt and come back stronger week on week, month on month - which it does - surely that means it is better prepared for and more resistant to the various threats of illness, injury and the ravages of time?

Kev M

"It's not important that I'm healthy... It's important that I have big muscles!" - Markus Ruhl

Khannie

For me, exercising hard has led to a bunch of other improvements in my life. I've educated myself on nutrition and proper recovery along with exercise and to be honest I feel better now than I did at 21 when I was eating crap and never exercising. When I train, I train hard. Sometimes I am wrecked after it, but I think the body's good at fixing any negative side effects of exercise, especially if you're eating well (though I think you can exercise hard and get away with eating more crap than the average person without paying the price if you're so inclined).

Barry.Oglesby

curadh wrote: »

Was speaking with a mate today who is a doctor, and claims serious hard workouts are not good for the heart, such as benching a heavy weight that u can only get 4-5 reps with. I know all doctors believe in moderation and that but it has me thinking about all the crap we are doing to ourselves, hammering the central nervous system all week long.
Also, is it safe to be taking protein/various other stuff in high dosages so many times a day? Are we screwing around with how our system works and how it repairs itself naturally? Anyone have any reseacrh on safe use or anything?

There is some concern among the serious medical community about the long term effects of too much protein in our diet, but this has less to do with supplementation and more to do with the sheer quantity of meat the average person (and by person I mean American) eats. Most dieticians recommend a view of beef as more of a side dish for example.

As for the lifting heavy things and it's effect on your heart, well, lifting causes a certain response in the heart which, if not combined with regular exercise which causes another response, could be dangerous, yes.

I think a good analysis of powerlifters versus any other control group and their relative health and life expectancy would be a good way to prove or disprove this. They're the ones most exposed to those loads on a regular basis.

colm1234

ive lifted weights for several years now I take 1.5 grams of protein per 1lbs of body weight every day, im never sick not once have I been to the doctors, not so much as a bad flu in the past seven years. although this month ive decided to start taking creatine im on my second week now the results are great but must say im a bit worried about becoming addicted to the stuff as im already considering staying on it for longer than you are ment to. is there any one using the stuff that can give me some advice on it

Doug Cartel

colm1234 wrote: »

this month ive decided to start taking creatine im on my second week now the results are great but must say im a bit worried about becoming addicted to the stuff as im already considering staying on it for longer than you are ment to.

What? It's just a supplement, not a drug - do you worry about becoming addicted to vitamin C?

Anyway, if you've only been on it 2 weeks, then most of the results/addictions you're experiencing are probably in your head.

colm1234

Doug Cartel wrote: »

What? It's just a supplement, not a drug - do you worry about becoming addicted to vitamin C?

Anyway, if you've only been on it 2 weeks, then most of the results/addictions you're experiencing are probably in your head.

read up about the side effects of taking too much or staying on it too long, ive also put a good half inch mass on my biceps due to the loading period so deffo not in my head because i measured my arms to be 17.5inch now 2 week later they are bang on 18 inch im affraid of getting addicted to these kind of gains as I dont fancy kidney or liver problems, I just want to know the opinion of other people who use this product and how they use it eg 4 week on 4 week off

colm1234

id also like to add ive been loading up on glutamine the past 6 week taken in my bed time protein I add around 5 to 10 gram per day

cc87

You cant get addicted to creatine.

If you start thinking that without creatine you cant train and make gains well thats down to you not the creatine.

Doug Cartel

Yeah, creatine does cause you to retain water, so I guess you can see gains on size pretty quickly. I don't think it would cause you to consistently grow at that rate though.

colm1234

so you reccon after the loading phase you are basically as big as you will get from it ?

Doug Cartel

colm1234 wrote: »

so you reccon after the loading phase you are basically as big as you will get from it ?

Well not really. I should probably leave this for somebody who knows better to answer, but basically here's what I know.

Creatine allows your muscles to store more energy, which allows you to train a bit harder and by training harder, you get bigger/stronger. These are your real gains.

A side effect is that it causes you to retain water, which gives you some additional size gains, these come on pretty quick, and as far as I know, they are temporary and go away just as quickly as they come.

Another thing is that there isn't much evidence to support the idea of a loading phase, I think it's just something supplement companies came up with so you buy more supplements.

Cole

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

There is some concern among the serious medical community about the long term effects of too much protein in our diet, but this has less to do with supplementation and more to do with the sheer quantity of meat the average person (and by person I mean American) eats. Most dieticians recommend a view of beef as more of a side dish for example.

As for the lifting heavy things and it's effect on your heart, well, lifting causes a certain response in the heart which, if not combined with regular exercise which causes another response, could be dangerous, yes.

I think a good analysis of powerlifters versus any other control group and their relative health and life expectancy would be a good way to prove or disprove this. They're the ones most exposed to those loads on a regular basis.

From my experience, there does seem to be some concern in the medical community about the increased widespread use/overuse of supplements also. I've even noticed this in the gym over the years and, for example, it appears to be very common now even in schoolboys rugby. I played rugby as a young fella years ago....so I'm out of touch with the current goings on....but from speaking to some younger lads, there seems to be a real pressure to get big and the use of various supplements is seen as essential.

I don't take any supplements....just a personal choice, each to their own....but I don't think that completely dismissing the concerns of the medical community is clever (not directed at you Barry, btw)

Khannie wrote: »

For me, exercising hard has led to a bunch of other improvements in my life. I've educated myself on nutrition and proper recovery along with exercise and to be honest I feel better now than I did at 21 when I was eating crap and never exercising. When I train, I train hard. Sometimes I am wrecked after it, but I think the body's good at fixing any negative side effects of exercise, especially if you're eating well (though I think you can exercise hard and get away with eating more crap than the average person without paying the price if you're so inclined).

Similiar to me Khannie, just curious whether you include any supplements in your diet, specifically to aid recovery? I don't (used to take a post gym shake, don't bother anymore) just rely on good nutrition.

Chris89

Your friend is obviously a wimp.

cc87

If people dont use protein shakes then they will still get their protein from other sources. Using the powdered form just tends to be a more effective delivery method and cheaper as well.

The problem is too many people see supplements as essential yet cleaning up their diet would probably lead to a greater training effect.

Protein is just that protein. Its up to the buyer not to buy into some of the rubbish thats marketed today.

Hanley

Kev M wrote: »

"It's not important that I'm healthy... It's important that I have big muscles!" - Markus Ruhl

"I don't care if I die, as long as they carry me out in a big f*cking box"

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

As for the lifting heavy things and it's effect on your heart, well, lifting causes a certain response in the heart which, if not combined with regular exercise which causes another response, could be dangerous, yes.

I think a good analysis of powerlifters versus any other control group and their relative health and life expectancy would be a good way to prove or disprove this. They're the ones most exposed to those loads on a regular basis.

Ventricular wall hypertrophy versus volume increase?

Khannie

Cole wrote: »

Similiar to me Khannie, just curious whether you include any supplements in your diet, specifically to aid recovery? I don't (used to take a post gym shake, don't bother anymore) just rely on good nutrition.

I rely on good nutrition as much as I can. A shake is very convenient though. When I finish training I'm a long way from home. I do supplement alright where I think it aids recovery or improves performance during training (and once I've done reading that indicates I'm not peeing my money down a drain, literally). I train hard enough that reduced recovery time is important to me though. If I were not hitting that limit I wouldn't bother with supplements to be honest.

curadh

I accept the benefits of exercising and pumping weights.
However does anyone know of studies on how the overuse/use even of supplementation as well as lifting crazy weight for example deadlifting twice your bodyweight and some, may aggravate a disposition to say certain types of cancer or coronary heart disease, hypertension?

Sure I wanna be arnie like all of you but Id prefer not to be ded from it.

cc87

curadh wrote: »

I accept the benefits of exercising and pumping weights.
However does anyone know of studies on how the overuse/use even of supplementation as well as lifting crazy weight for example deadlifting twice your bodyweight and some, may aggravate a disposition to say certain types of cancer or coronary heart disease, hypertension?

Sure I wanna be arnie like all of you but Id prefer not to be ded from it.

Well arnie is 63, id bet good money on more people who dont lift weights dying before they reach their sixties than those who do lift weights.

The problem with the chronic conditions you mentioned is that it is impossible to say which one or even a number of factors led to their development as it is down to a huge range of lifestyle choices.

Doctors coming out with things like this are not doing anyone a favour as so many people already inactive just take things like that up as weights causes cancer/heart disease etc.

But it is safe to say that those who have a more active lifestyle are in less danger than those of a sedentary disposition.

Hanley

curadh wrote: »

I accept the benefits of exercising and pumping weights.
However does anyone know of studies on how the overuse/use even of supplementation as well as lifting crazy weight for example deadlifting twice your bodyweight and some, may aggravate a disposition to say certain types of cancer or coronary heart disease, hypertension?

Sure I wanna be arnie like all of you but Id prefer not to be ded from it.

I don't know how to say this without sounding like a prick, but what the f*ck??

Almost everything has been linked with cancer in one way or another, so no matter you do you'r pretty much f*cked. A lot of the stuff people do like sitting around watching TV or whatever doesn't really offer any tangible benefits, lifting and training does.

Look at acute injury incidences per 100 hours or whatever of soccer and other sports. They're much higher than that of lifting in a gym.

Why would DL'n 2x bodyweight cause cancer? Serious question? Like are you picking a random statement and trying to link it with death??

It's like me saying will hitting the "P" key on my laptop and typing "c-a-n-c-e-r" over and over again give me prostate cancer. THere's no evidence to support it, it's pretty much entirely made up, but it's something 90% of the population do, so is unusual, and therefore probably dangerous.

I just had 2 marks and spencers chocolate chip cookies. Say they're about 200kcals each. THat's the equivalent of about 50g of protein. Which is more likely to give me cancer? Which is more likely to be seen as "normal"?

Khannie

Hanley wrote: »

I don't know how to say this without sounding like a prick, but what the f*ck??

Then don't say it, because you sound like what you don't want to sound like. The OP asked a legitimate question. Acute injury has nothing to do with it. Cancer was only one of a list of things mentioned. There's no harm in finding out if any form of exercise can have negative consequences.

Hanley

Khannie wrote: »

Then don't say it, because you sound like what you don't want to sound like. The OP asked a legitimate question. Acute injury has nothing to do with it. Cancer was only one of a list of things mentioned. There's no harm in finding out if any form of exercise can have negative consequences.

Eh..... so should be we leave posts up where people make outlandish accusations without asking them to justify their statements?

The actue injury thing IS relevant if we're talking about training in the gym being "bad" for you. Because there's so much more stuff that's worse and more likely to cause injury. It might not kill you, but stepping foot inside a gym probably isn't going to either.

Cole

Hanley wrote: »

Eh..... so should be we leave posts up where people make outlandish accusations without asking them to justify their statements?

I thought the OP asked a question, didn't he? He asked if anyone knew of any specific studies.

Hanley

Cole wrote: »

I thought the OP asked a question, didn't he? He asked if anyone knew of any specific studies.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69970064&postcount=25

curadh

woah horsies! I'm not accusing or any such nonsense. Im not saying training is bad. Im not saying anything to do with exercise is bad. I train myself hard 3 times a week with weights. Im simply starting a debate on the long term consequences of these things we are doing to ourselves.

and yes I know physical stress can be good for us such as exercise, however when is it tooo much...

Does anyone have opinions on what is too much? Maybe for them personally, or any thoughts on it? Also the question of research if theres any. Also with supplementation it must be said that a lot of stuff isnt FDA approved which may not even pass...just saying...dont get into roid rage mode.:D.!!

discus

curadh wrote: »

Also with supplementation it must be said that a lot of stuff isnt FDA approved which may not even pass...just saying...dont get into roid rage mode.:D.!!

Oooooooh FDA approved. FDA approved what? What would it not pass? Clinical trials? Quality control of finished product? Are we talking pharma here even?

We'll avoid the roid rage when people stop posting absolute ****.

Chet Zar

curadh wrote: »

woah horsies! I'm not accusing or any such nonsense. Im not saying training is bad. Im not saying anything to do with exercise is bad. I train myself hard 3 times a week with weights. Im simply starting a debate on the long term consequences of these things we are doing to ourselves.

and yes I know physical stress can be good for us such as exercise, however when is it tooo much...

Does anyone have opinions on what is too much? Maybe for them personally, or any thoughts on it? Also the question of research if theres any.

I find it hard to take your questions seriously.. Too much what like? It's a bit like asking how much sunbathing is too much. Or how many chocolate bars are too much. I find it strange also that you look on exercise and training as 'things we are doing to ourselves' - for me that's the kind of wording you'd use for cocaine abuse or something.

If you want research then maybe go online, find some and then come back and we can discuss a topic or who knows maybe even a paper, etc.

Khannie

Hanley wrote: »

ecause there's so much more stuff that's worse and more likely to cause injury. It might not kill you, but stepping foot inside a gym probably isn't going to either.

And I 100% agree with that. The tone of your post was aggressive when the OP asked a legitimate question.

edit: Just to be clear: Just because something seems self-evident to you does not mean you get to jump on a high horse and start ranting at the OP. There's way too much of that goes on around here and I am sick to the teeth of it.

Khannie

Chet Zar wrote: »

I find it hard to take your questions seriously.. Too much what like? It's a bit like asking how much sunbathing is too much. Or how many chocolate bars are too much.

Are they not legitimate questions if you don't understand something?

Chet Zar wrote: »

I find it strange also that you look on exercise and training as 'things we are doing to ourselves' - for me that's the kind of wording you'd use for cocaine abuse or something.

Exercising strenuously will cause some (very minor, I admit) damage to the body. The body repairs itself and responds to the stimulus. Increased fitness ahoy. That someone can't come on here and ask whether or not there are implications to that damage without getting pounced on is nothing short of ridiculous.

discus

Khannie, if all this is relating to Curadh, then I can't see how you're playing devils advocate. He posted some utter trite and labelled it as "This is how it is, lads".

Khannie

OP: I did a bit of googling. I remember reading about a heavy lifter a while ago who lay down on the ground after a particularly heavy lift and didn't stand up again. Unfortunately I can't remember the guys name.

I did find this article with very little effort though....

Scientists are calling for widespread heart screening of people before they begin weight training. That's based on new evidence that lifting more than half your body weight could put you at risk of sudden death.
Yale New Haven Hospital surgeon John Elefteriades and colleagues report in an advance online study in the journal Cardiology that they've documented a link between heavy lifting and torn aortas—the heart's main artery—in young, healthy patients who had previously undiagnosed aneurysms, or enlargement of the aorta.

Personally, I wouldn't let it put me off lifting weights. As everyone else has so vehemently pointed out...there are far worse things you could choose to do than lift heavy.

edit: I should add...the idea that lifting half my bodyweight is heavy seems....honestly....ridiculous to me.

Khannie

discus wrote: »

Khannie, if all this is relating to Curadh, then I can't see how you're playing devils advocate. He posted some utter trite and labelled it as "This is how it is, lads".

I didn't notice that...PM'd.

Hanley

Khannie wrote: »

OP: I did a bit of googling. I remember reading about a heavy lifter a while ago who lay down on the ground after a particularly heavy lift and didn't stand up again. Unfortunately I can't remember the guys name.

I did find this article with very little effort though....

"Scientists are calling for widespread heart screening of people before they begin weight training. That's based on new evidence that lifting more than half your body weight could put you at risk of sudden death.
Yale New Haven Hospital surgeon John Elefteriades and colleagues report in an advance online study in the journal Cardiology that they've documented a link between heavy lifting and torn aortas—the heart's main artery—in young, healthy patients who had previously undiagnosed aneurysms, or enlargement of the aorta."

Personally, I wouldn't let it put me off lifting weights. As everyone else has so vehemently pointed out...there are far worse things you could choose to do than lift heavy.

edit: I should add...the idea that lifting half my bodyweight is heavy seems....honestly....ridiculous to me.

Half your body weight in what?!

I don't know whether it's poor journalism, or just a silly statement from the doctor, but I find it hard to take that seriously. Hell, even push ups can tear your heart. And we thought womb had it bad with destroying their wombs. That article's from 2006, the study should be out by now, anyone got it?

curadh

discus, where did i say 'this is how it is'? Merely starting a debate, not a row....your post on the FDA is idiotic if I do say so myself. Alright the FDA may not be up to your rigorous and effective methods of testing a product but it is a guideline on some sort of safety. Should we abandon all measures of safety then if they are worthless in your eyes?

Itd be great to be able to pump your pistons to the max forever in the gym but at some point boys the piston may well burst the block. Especially so in the case of a disposition, so it may be important to bear these things in mind as we get older.....

Anyhow couldn't care much for an argument over the internet...I'm out

Chet Zar

Hanley wrote: »

Half your body weight in what?!

I don't know whether it's poor journalism, or just a silly statement from the doctor, but I find it hard to take that seriously. Hell, even push ups can tear your heart. And we thought womb had it bad with destroying their wombs. That article's from 2006, the study should be out by now, anyone got it?

Here we go

discus

curadh wrote: »

discus, where did i say 'this is how it is'? Merely starting a debate, not a row....your post on the FDA is idiotic if I do say so myself. Alright the FDA may not be up to your rigorous and effective methods of testing a product but it is a guideline on some sort of safety. Should we abandon all measures of safety then if they are worthless in your eyes?

Itd be great to be able to pump your pistons to the max forever in the gym but at some point boys the piston may well burst the block. Especially so in the case of a disposition, so it may be important to bear these things in mind as we get older.....

Anyhow couldn't care much for an argument over the internet...I'm out

Khannie... to follow up my last PM.... COME ON!! Read this stuff

Curadh, the remit of the FDA is huge. What aspect are we referring to here? Pharmaceutically active materials - as in, clinical trials? Purity of a finished product - are we getting what's on the label, and nothing else?

Actually, if you'll do me a favour, answer me this - what do you know of the FDA?

Chet Zar

Argh...had a post typed out but somehow got lost...OP you can be guaranteed the reaction above if you start talking about 'roid-rage'....you make an interesting point on the 'disposition' aspect - just shows how everyone is different and some people are more prone to certain things happening than others...

Chet Zar

Just a note on the link above - you have to sign up to the site to read it - but signing up is free. I've read the first page and it's not light reading as you might expect

Barry.Oglesby

curadh wrote: »

Itd be great to be able to pump your pistons to the max forever in the gym but at some point boys the piston may well burst the block. Especially so in the case of a disposition, so it may be important to bear these things in mind as we get older.....

You have physiological limitations that prevent the "piston" from pumping until you break.

Anyhow couldn't care much for an argument over the internet...I'm out

Just decided to start the argument then?

kevpants

Most of the cardiologists on the northside were on alert after I had blood taken a few weeks ago.

Apparently there was some SADS conference on that week and "weightlifters" must have had several powerpoint slides associated with them. Just through fairly benign questioning the nurse discovered I was a powerlifter, took supplements, regularly put 200+Kg on my back, was in ketosis at the time and that my dad dropped dead at 43... oh and after she took the blood I passed out, right when she running an ECG (I think thats it) and basically it told her my heart is/was exploding.

The reaction was funny. She even broke the confidentiality rules later that day when speaking to my wife. Apparently I'm "circling the drain".

Have to go now..numbness in left arm is back. Ooooh and someones making toast!

EDIT: Oh and the blood tests came back fine. Because *sweeping statement* doctors need to calm the f@*k down.

Rycn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgOJyV08xp8

cc87

Why is lifting heavy only an issue if it done in terms of weighlifting,why isnt it an issue if it is part of your trade (block laying, farming etc)

People have being lifting heavy sh!t for centuries. Its only in recent years heart disease has become an epidemic, id far sooner look at what has changed in recent years for a possible cause than blame lifting heavy stuff.

dartstothesea

Just because curadh put question marks after the things s/he suggested/"asked" doesn't mean they're not trolling. Bowing out after a few basically tame replies only makes it look more that way.

My heart probably would have exploded with roid rage / posterior chain cancer if someone hadn't actually said WTF?, just wish a much bigger font had been used.

Am I allowed call BS on the OP's claim that they lift heavy regularly themselves?
Oh and that's just a question, you know. I'm not saying anything is one way of the other.

SpookyBastard

Something that's occured to me over the years doing martial arts. There were always parents/relatives who were concerned (and in most cases had convinced themselves) that the warm up sessions (usual stuff) in particular the push ups might not be 'good' for some of the students. This was usually based on the ages of some of the kids... Phrases like 'oh I don't know really, can't be good for you all that...lifting weight and only 8'

As if they had never seen these kids outside of the dojo, playing on the green and wrestling or picking up their bikes when a tyre was flat, etc... not to mention how heavy our school bags used to be!!

Then I noticed I heard it in work 'Oh, I dunno. Can't be good for you running about all day... sure don't you know the guy who invented jogging died whilst jogging'

Even normally sensible people were worried about me going to the gym. It's ok for me to help them move furniture, or throw out their old washing machine, or push start their car but 'we weren't meant to lift heavy weights... our bodies just aren't designed for it... i hope there are none of them steroids in that protein shake you drink... you'd wanna be careful you don't get too much protein... can't be good for you can it'

It's as if some people feel the need to poke holes in a pile of health and fitness pursuits so as to avoid doing them. I'm all for being careful and not just assuming that DL 3x Body is not going to do me harm because 'I just know'. However, the argument of 'well we don't know/can't prove that it isn't bad for you' always seems pretty dumb to me.

'We don't know that Obama isn't secretly a communist spy sent to take over'
'We cant be 100% sure that cod liver oil might possibly maybe give someone some sort of illness'
'We can't be sure that flying in planes doesn't give you cancer'

Just because you can't prove something isn't dangerous does not make it dangerous. It's only logical to be cautious but I can't help but wonder if people enjoy the drama and scaremongering of a possible link between anything and death more than the usually very boring reality.

Nobody stops eating chocolate even though in large amounts it is actually poisonous

Bottle_of_Smoke

Read recently the more calories you consume the faster you age. So whilst heavy lifting might not be so bad the massive appetite it gives us might be.

Personally I don't care - an enjoyable life is more important than a long one to me. And imho people are already living far too long for a sustainable environment and pension system.

Rycn

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Read recently the more calories you consume the faster you age. So whilst heavy lifting might not be so bad the massive appetite it gives us might be.

Personally I don't care - an enjoyable life is more important than a long one to me. And imho people are already living far too long for a sustainable environment and pension system.

That's bullshit imo, and if it isn't then it's by a very small percentage.