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Why Are Religions Tax-Exempt?

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    #62
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    But if you want to restrict it to Ireland they use a combination of guilt and fear to extort money out of naive people, just like any cult does.
    You'd swear people were threatened to pay or face execution by the way you speak. It's quite simple really, if people are members of a church and they are capable of paying then they should pay something towards its running, it's only fair. If they can't then of course they need not to. If they can pay but don't want to and think that using the services of the church expecting others to foot the bill is quite unfair.


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    #63
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    not really, you become part of the church due to your parents actions (generally: ie baptism) and actually have to go to a reasonable amount of effort to make it clear you no longer wish to be a part of it after that.
    If it was free will alone than you should not be baptised or given communion until 18 when you are legally old enough to be an adult and legally entitled to make your own decisions for yourself.
    Well a child is the responsibility of their parents until they reach 18. Until a child is old enough to make their own decisions the parent makes the decision for their child in essence exercising their own free will on behalf of their child. Once a child is old enough to make their own decisions they can exercise their own free will under their own views and leave the church. Consider it as a parent would. What if they chose to let their own child wait until they were 18 before baptising them? What if their child died before 18? The parent would think they've condemned their child to hell for eternity and would forever live with a sense of guilt.


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    #64
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Never heard of them. I amn't a Catholic but even so these "mass cards" must have some purpose i.e. raising funds for the running of the church
    I'm not sure if the money goes directly to the priest that signs it or he has to give a kickback to the church but the price of them is disgraceful. The point is though they do sell plenty of things they don't survive on donations. They take things that have no real world value bless it and sell it on at mark ups that are obscene.
    You aren't seeing it from their perspective. They see a church as a house of god (Most denominations do at least) and they see that it must be made as such. Your local priest isn't "the church" though. He may have been saving up for the new car since he was young, he may have took out a car loan. Either way, one person doesn't define an entire entity.
    It's true and the reason it was so shocking was because it was so flash but at the same time the other priest where getting a new car every two years, decent cars.

    I'm pretty sure the fancy churches (buildings) are a corruption of what Jesus wanted. The church isn't supposed to be a place it's supposed to be a group of people. I understand they want to show their admiration and I don't have a problem with that but some churches go beyond admiration into obscene opulence.


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    #65
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    ScumLord wrote: »

    I'm pretty sure the fancy churches (buildings) are a corruption of what Jesus wanted. The church isn't supposed to be a place it's supposed to be a group of people. I understand they want to show their admiration and I don't have a problem with that but some churches go beyond admiration into obscene opulence.
    Well yes, it shouldn't be so obscenely ostentatious that it becomes more a display of wealth than admiration. Thankfully, that's not every church of every denomination though.


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    #66
    thetonynator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭thetonynator


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Brainwashing children isn't free will.


    Nobody is brainwashed, it is the parents decision, and later at confirmation, the childs decision, and if they want to leave the church at a later point they can ( i believe someone even has a website to help you do it).

    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    not really, you become part of the church due to your parents actions (generally: ie baptism) and actually have to go to a reasonable amount of effort to make it clear you no longer wish to be a part of it after that.
    If it was free will alone than you should not be baptised or given communion until 18 when you are legally old enough to be an adult and legally entitled to make your own decisions for yourself.


    As i said above, you can change your mind at confirmation, and you can leave at any point.
    Kasabian wrote: »
    Really! How many kids do you see protesting as the water is poured over their heads or when they get roped in with the communion and confirmation money, by this age the church has left it's impression

    Your post is bollix

    When a child is very young, of course it is their parents decision, and they can leave at any point.


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    #67
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Well yes, it shouldn't be so obscenely ostentatious that it becomes more a display of wealth than admiration. Thankfully, that's not every church of every denomination though.
    It's not no and to be fair, places like Vatican city are such amassing examples of human engineering they should be preserved at any cost but the point is the church has money, wealth and power dripping out of every orifice. They can afford to pay taxes.


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    #68
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,488 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    thetonynator wrote: »
    As i said above, you can change your mind at confirmation, and you can leave at any point.

    You think you can actually make that decision at that age?
    I know I only did it cos we were told to in school, I didn't know any better then and was too afraid to question it.


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    #69
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    ScumLord wrote: »
    It's not no and to be fair, places like Vatican city are such amassing examples of human engineering they should be preserved at any cost but the point is the church has money, wealth and power dripping out of every orifice. They can afford to pay taxes.
    The Catholic church does in any case. I'd rather them divert much more money to charity than tax. Charity does long-term good and all that tax seems to do (In this country at least) is get wasted in funding corruption or inefficiency.


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    #70
    thetonynator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭thetonynator


    ScumLord wrote: »
    It's not no and to be fair, places like Vatican city are such amassing examples of human engineering they should be preserved at any cost but the point is the church has money, wealth and power dripping out of every orifice. They can afford to pay taxes.

    On a vatican level, the church is very rich, but as a state they would only pay tax to themselves. But on a parish or diocese level, the church is really not that rich at all, although they do own some land, much of which has been sold to fund themselves due to a lack of congregations in recent years.


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    #71
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    OP's response: As the Churches provide charity without the state's judgmental attitude to poor people.


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    #72
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    You think you can actually make that decision at that age?
    I know I only did it cos we were told to in school, I didn't know any better then and was too afraid to question it.
    Oh the oppression!

    You went in to a church and got confirmed and then got a lot of money after it for the privilege. You make it sound as if getting confirmed was a horribly oppressing and distressing affair. In Ireland, people seem to think religious oppression is having the Angelus on TV (Without any direct references to religion). When you compare that to real religious oppression like the bombings in Egypt or the massacres in Iraq over Christmas you can only wonder how some people view the world.


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    #73
    Craebear
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭Craebear


    The Church can keep it's tax exempt status so long as it keeps it's mouth shut. If the Church wants to have a say in referendums and the running of the state, it should pay the admission fee like everyone else.


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    #74
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Oh the oppression!

    You went in to a church and got confirmed and then got a lot of money after it for the privilege. You make it sound as if getting confirmed was a horribly oppressing and distressing affair. In Ireland, people seem to think religious oppression is having the Angelus on TV (Without any direct references to religion). When you compare that to real religious oppression like the bombings in Egypt or the massacres in Iraq over Christmas you can only wonder how some people view the world.

    The Catholic Church was for a very long time, a repressive force in this country. They are less so now, but that doesn't mean that they still don't strive to hang onto the power & influence they still have.

    There is still very minimal seperation between education & religion. In many places, it is very difficult for people to get their kids educated without first having them baptized into the Church - in many cases against their better judgement.

    It wasn't that long ago when the church were the only ones who could marry people. They used to marry pregnant women or women who had kids at night time as they refused to celebrate that in daylight. Suicide victims were not allowed to be buried on "hallowed ground". etc etc.

    They still teach that homosexuality is a "sin" & that contraception is against their principles. Women - in their eyes - are second class citizens, not worthy of being ordained.

    They are against almost all ideals which modern, forward & open minded thinkers believe.

    Granted, the Angelus is not the same type of repression as the bombings in Egypt, but they are still a symbol of it & one which we could really do without.


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    #75
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Craebear wrote: »
    The Church can keep it's tax exempt status so long as it keeps it's mouth shut. If the Church wants to have a say in referendums and the running of the state, it should pay the admission fee like everyone else.
    The church as an entity is allowed to express whatever view it wants. That's freedom of opinion and tax payer or not you are granted that freedom in Ireland. In any case, no Church (As an entity) has any bearing on referendums and the running of the state. The members of a church do however have influence on referendums and on the running of the state as they "pay their admission fee" as you said.


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    #76
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The church as an entity is allowed to express whatever view it wants..

    Funny, that.

    The Church are allowed to say whatever they want.

    They can say that homosexuality is abnormal, they can teach children that if they don't repent to God, that they will suffer eternal damnation, they can preach that sex is sinful, that safe sex is wrong, that abortion is murder & that even the most heinous crimes can be forgiven once they seek forgiveness from "The Lord".

    They can say whatever they feel like - no matter how vile, anti-humane, inflammatory, anti-women, homophobic, ridiculous, obscene or bizarre and they can get away with it because it's their opinion.

    They are real-life trolls who never get banned.

    Yet, if you blaspheme in this country, you are breaking the law.

    Funny, that.


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    #77
    RockinRolla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 575 ✭✭✭RockinRolla


    thetonynator wrote: »
    People dont need to be ''freed'' they are part of the church entirely of their own free will. (In ireland that is)
    They do not sell the promise of an afterlife, the members of the church believe in the afterlife and the church ideas do not change depending on how much someone pays to them. Not since the reformation anyway.

    Absolute Bollox.

    The church hammer fairytales into children in Irish schools like theres no tomorrow from a young age when a kid has no intelligence or ability to ask questions or challenge them. You think this has no physcological impact in later life? You're so far removed from reality.

    The church rake in billions of euros every year, don't pay a cent in taxes and they always need a little more....what would God do with money? The church is the biggest fraud of all time and you're against taxing these evil bastards?

    Unbelievable.


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    #78
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Funny, that.

    The Church are allowed to say whatever they want.

    They can say that homosexuality is abnormal, they can teach children that if they don't repent to God, that they will suffer eternal damnation, they can preach that sex is sinful, that safe sex is wrong, that abortion is murder & that even the most heinous crimes can be forgiven once they seek forgiveness from "The Lord".

    They can say whatever they feel like - no matter how vile, anti-humane, inflammatory, anti-women, homophobic, ridiculous, obscene or bizarre and they can get away with it because it's their opinion.

    They are real-life trolls who never get banned.

    Yet, if you blaspheme in this country, you are breaking the law.

    Funny, that.
    I don't recall any particular Church or religion pressurising the government to pass any blasphemy law. They did it in accordance with the 1937 constitution and according to wikipedia there's supposed to be a constitutional amendment referendum coming to decide on the fate of the blasphemy law. Even so, has anyone ever been charged with breaking that particular law? For example on boards there would be arrests made almost every day if that law was to be enforced. In any case, let's keep it to the thread title before this ends up being another church bashing thread.


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    #79
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I don't recall any particular Church or religion pressurising the government to pass any blasphemy law. They did it in accordance with the 1937 constitution and according to wikipedia there's supposed to be a constitutional amendment referendum coming to decide on the fate of the blasphemy law. Even so, has anyone ever been charged with breaking that particular law?

    That's hardly the point.


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    #80
    RockinRolla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 575 ✭✭✭RockinRolla


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I don't recall any particular Church or religion pressurising the government to pass any blasphemy law. They did it in accordance with the 1937 constitution and according to wikipedia there's supposed to be a constitutional amendment referendum coming to decide on the fate of the blasphemy law. Even so, has anyone ever been charged with breaking that particular law? For example on boards there would be arrests made almost every day if that law was to be enforced. In any case, let's keep it to the thread title before this ends up being another church bashing thread.

    The blasphemy law, whether it is enforced or not is a clear sign that there is something deeply and disturbingly wrong with Irish society. The very fact that this was passed shows a complete lack of a free, democratic society. If there was some suggestion to it stemming from the constitution, then it is that that needs a complete overhaul which i am in favour of anyway.

    What a real mess we have let ourselves get into. Who the fcuk has the balls to sort this sh!t out?!


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    #81
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    RockinRolla wrote: »

    The church hammer fairytales into children in Irish schools like theres no tomorrow from a young age when a kid has no intelligence or ability to ask questions or challenge them. You think this has no physcological impact in later life? You're so far removed from reality.
    I'm not Catholic and I went to a Catholic school. No one "hammered fairytales" in to us. There was a short religion class every once in a week and those whose parents had opted out of religious education on behalf of their children just read a book or played a board game. You're the one far removed from reality or failing that you must have went to school many decades ago. I started primary school back in 1998 and that's my experience in a Catholic school. Tell me this, you must have been horribly oppressed and must have had 'fairytales' hammered in to you all throughout primary school, right? Looking at your posts, I've got to say that you're the quintessential example of someone "brainwashed" by the Catholic Church alright.
    The church rake in billions of euros every year, don't pay a cent in taxes and they always need a little more....what would God do with money? The church is the biggest fraud of all time and you're against taxing these evil bastards?
    There are 2.2 Billion Christians around the world and the Catholic Church is the biggest Church on the planet with over a billion adherents. Running ANY organisation that big requires a massive amount of money and they get this money through voluntary donations for the most part. You may think they are fraudulent evil bastards that should be taxed but that's you and your views and not the view of the majority.


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    #82
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I wish that was the case, man the ammount of vat back on all those bottled of wine over the year which were drank in pagan rites, oh yes and the candles too.


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    #83
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    There are 2.2 Billion Christians around the world and the Catholic Church is the biggest Church on the planet with over a billion adherents.

    Really, those numbers are well dodgy.


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    #84
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    RockinRolla wrote: »
    What a real mess we have let ourselves get into. Who the fcuk has the balls to sort this sh!t out?!
    Unenforced blasphemy laws do not count towards the economic mess that Ireland is in. It's not doing you or anyone else harm at present and once a referendum is carried out on the constitutional amendment the law can be changed accordingly to the views of Ireland of 2011.


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    #85
    RockinRolla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 575 ✭✭✭RockinRolla


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I'm not Catholic and I went to a Catholic school. No one "hammered fairytales" in to us. There was a short religion class every once in a week and those whose parents had opted out of religious education on behalf of their children just read a book or played a board game. You're the one far removed from reality or failing that you must have went to school many decades ago. I started primary school back in 1998 and that's my experience in a Catholic school. Tell me this, you must have been horribly oppressed and must have had 'fairytales' hammered in to you all throughout primary school, right? Looking at your posts, I've got to say that you're the quintessential example of someone "brainwashed" by the Catholic Church alright..

    There shouldn't be religion in schools, at all.


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    #86
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Really, those numbers are well dodgy.
    Yeah really.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

    World population: 6,768,181,146
    % Christians: 33.32%
    Christians: 2255157958


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    #87
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    RockinRolla wrote: »
    There shouldn't be religion in schools, at all.
    I've seen that phrase said about fifty times on AH and i'm sick and tired of writing out the same reply. In any case, that has nothing to do with "Why are Religions Tax-Exempt".


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    #88
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I'm not Catholic and I went to a Catholic school. No one "hammered fairytales" in to us. There was a short religion class every once in a week and those whose parents had opted out of religious education on behalf of their children just read a book or played a board game. You're the one far removed from reality or failing that you must have went to school many decades ago. I started primary school back in 1998 and that's my experience in a Catholic school. Tell me this, you must have been horribly oppressed and must have had 'fairytales' hammered in to you all throughout primary school, right? Looking at your posts, I've got to say that you're the quintessential example of someone "brainwashed" by the Catholic Church alright.
    .
    I started Catholic school way back in 84, we prayed constantly in national and secondary. Both schools had nuns and priests on the staff we had religion more than once a week. There was no avoiding the religious class, a protestant girl came to our school and had no choice but to attend the class but she didn't mind to much as she didn't want to be shunned out of the class for being a protestant.

    Fair enough I'm from a small town so it was probably more invasive than in a city school but religion was drummed into me daily from an early age.


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    #89
    RockinRolla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 575 ✭✭✭RockinRolla


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Unenforced blasphemy laws do not count towards the economic mess that Ireland is in. It's not doing you or anyone else harm at present and once a referendum is carried out on the constitutional amendment the law can be changed accordingly to the views of Ireland of 2011.

    It's in absolute opposition to what is comparable to a free, democratic society. A total disgrace and a national tragedy. Are you against free speech? By remotely feeling nothing about this law suggests it. What about the atheists in this country? Are they not allowed to voice their opinion?

    Passing this diabolical crap is a criminal offense. Everyone is equal.


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    #90
    Groinshot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Groinshot


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    amn't
    This is all I saw in that post..


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    #91
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I started Catholic school way back in 84, we prayed constantly in national and secondary. Both schools had nuns and priests on the staff we had religion more than once a week. There was no avoiding the religious class, a protestant girl came to our school and had no choice but to attend the class but she didn't mind to much as she didn't want to be shunned out of the class for being a protestant.

    Fair enough I'm from a small town so it was probably more invasive than in a city school but religion was drummed into me daily from an early age.
    Rural ireland in the 80s is nothing at all like the Ireland of today which is what we're talking about.
    RockinRolla wrote: »
    It's in absolute opposition to what is comparable to a free, democratic society. A total disgrace and a national tragedy. Are you against free speech? By remotely feeling nothing about this law suggests it. What about the atheists in this country? Are they not allowed to voice their opinion?

    Passing this diabolical crap is a criminal offense. Everyone is equal.
    "A total disgrace and national tragedy."
    I'm sorry but a blasphemy law passed as a formality to agree with a constitution that's more than 75 years old hardly counts as a total disgrace and national tragedy. The atheists in the country are more than allowed to voice their opinion as I highly doubt you've typed out all your posts in fear of being prosecuted.


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