Are Irish women too prudish around other women?

LegacyUser

I recently went swimming at a pool in another European country. In the changing rooms, most of the girls and women were completely unembarrassed about undressing, showering, and walking around completely nude. It didn't seem to matter whether they were seven or seventy, were slim or overweight, had great bodies or flabby wrinkled ones. They were utterly unselfconscious. I couldn't help but compare this to my local swimming pool (West of Ireland town) where women tend to huddle in cubicles or change awkwardly under towels.

I grew up sharing a bedroom with two sisters. It was just the "done thing" that when one of us was changing out of her bra, she would turn around and face the wall. Knickers were always changed in the bathroom in private. That's just how it was.

I'm curious about other women's views on this. Are Irish women too prudish or reserved around other women? How do we come by these attitudes in the first place? Would we be better off (maybe more confident and less selfconscious about our bodies) if we were more open like Europeans?

Floppybits

Are-we-too-prudish? wrote: »

I recently went swimming at a pool in another European country. In the changing rooms, most of the girls and women were completely unembarrassed about undressing, showering, and walking around completely nude. It didn't seem to matter whether they were seven or seventy, were slim or overweight, had great bodies or flabby wrinkled ones. They were utterly unselfconscious. I couldn't help but compare this to my local swimming pool (West of Ireland town) where women tend to huddle in cubicles or change awkwardly under towels.

I grew up sharing a bedroom with two sisters. It was just the "done thing" that when one of us was changing out of her bra, she would turn around and face the wall. Knickers were always changed in the bathroom in private. That's just how it was.

I'm curious about other women's views on this. Are Irish women too prudish or reserved around other women? How do we come by these attitudes in the first place? Would we be better off (maybe more confident and less selfconscious about our bodies) if we were more open like Europeans?

As a guy I see that now creeping in for men as well. Growing up I always played team sports so getting changed in front of other people never really bothered me and I would think nothing of people walking around naked. However from reading threads on the fitness forum where guys are giving out about other men are walking around naked in the changing rooms, things seem to be changing.

For men maybe it is because of all the information out there about perverts and they maybe think someone will look at them if they are naked, where as most of the time people wont even notice.

For me we are prudish people, maybe its the church influence or maybe its just that we are not comfortable on how we look and dont want people to see us in all our glory. However I am gorgeous sexy so I dont mind walking around naked.

CnaG

I had similar thoughts after spending sometime in Norway a few years ago. As someone who has perfected the getting-your-underwear-off-when-your-togs-are-already-on trick through years of practise, it was a bit of a cultural shock to walk into a changing room there and see women of all shapes and sizes wandering around the place naked. (I distinctly remember one woman who was massively pregnant, having never seen a naked pregnant lady before). I got used to doing it after a few weeks though, when I realised that no-one gave a damn what you looked like because no-one was looking at anyone else changing. Probably still wouldn't do it in Ireland though - too many raised eyebrows and sniggers to contend with.

But to answer your question - yes, I think we might be too self-conscious about nudity. Everyone has similar bits after all, and exposure to other peoples' bits might help us realise that we're quite normal looking really. Not 'perfect' as perfect is portrayed in magazines perhaps, but normal. If we became less prudish in changing rooms, it might help assuage at least some of the body image issues we may have. I'd be interested to know what other people think too.

Reward

I think Ireland is generally prudish and shame about nudity would be a symptom of that. I've spent long enough living in other countries to draw comparisons.

squishykins

I would say yes, we are. I love it when I go to Germany, everything's so much more relaxed, I never feel as self-conscious over there It's just the done thing though, I doubt you'd get the national mentality here to change...I find a lot of things about Germany (I have no experience of other European countries and I'm half-German, I've been there a lot :P) much better, the lack of inhibitions is a paving stone to better mental health imo. Also they know how to take a compliment, I'm so sick of compliments being thrown back in my face here, it's so rude...but that's another story

Ickle Magoo

I'm not irish so I hope you don't mind my interjection...

I think ireland's long and chequered history with religion and the monopoly that the church's had/have in state education plays a big part in coyness and embarrassment around a whole raft of subjects like sex, nudity and even breast-feeding in public. It's a bit unfair to suggest women from a society that have been told their bodies are sinful and any kind of appreciation for their own sexualisation dirty for generations that they are "too prudish".

I'm sure in time ireland will grow to have a more relaxed attitude to nudity - but given how far behind the rest of europe ireland was in fully legalising contraceptives (1985) and how slow it remains to be in terms of legislative changes (divorce was still illegal up until 1995!) and the apparent apathy by the political establishment to disentangle state/church, it is going to take a while for the majority of women to be comfortable with shows of public nudity and not consciously or subconsciously conflating nudity with sexuality.

krudler

We are a nation of prudes definitely. People were told for years that the naked body was a sinful image and its stuck.

CnaG

I'd agree with what ickle magoo says about the conflation of nudity and sex, but I'm not sure we can place *all* the blame on religious conditioning. It could also be to do with the idea that a particular body shape is better than all the others, and the fat-shaming that goes with that. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religion. 'Get your bod bikini fit' articles spring to mind... as though you should be ashamed to show off your figure if it's less than perfect, when most of us are less than perfect. But whether it's the religious shame or the I'm-less-than-perfect shame, I suppose the final outcome is more or less the same anyway.

Maple

I've four sisters so I'm not prudish at all. I've grown up in a house where lady bits and bobs were compared, it was great and sometimes hysterically funny. I used pity my brothers.

However, yes I have noticed that in comparison to my house some of my friends are not as open about their bodies. I recently was away with a friend of mine and she came out of the bathroom and was trying to change her undies under a towel. The only reason I copped onto it was not because I was gawping at her but because she looked so damned awkward.

We've all got hangups about our bodies, i'm certainly not going to be flamenco dancing in my bikini anytime soon, but at the same time i'm not going to strangle myself trying to hook my bra when I could have it done in two seconds if I just dropped the towel. God bless the person's eyesight who managed to catch a glimpse of my breast at that speed.

baby and crumble

I remember going to boarding school, and when you were in 1st year you'd start off by showering with your swimming togs on (), and being shocked by the one girl in your dorm who walked around naked.

By 2nd year we had communal showers and nobody gave a damn.

And tbh, nobody looked at anything, I don't think. I know I didn't, and I was gay ffs!!!!

Reward

There are modern factors that I think might contribute..

The economic ploy "having it all" is which a woman was pressurised to be all things, including looking great for the benefit of employers and corporations.

To much attention being paid to trashy media and celebrity culture.

Putting off child birth leads to courses of action to disguise the outward (and inward) effects of declining fertility.

The traditional matriarchal figure has being somewhat erased from western culture so she with her experience, crows feet and various other battle scars is somewhat if a non person compared to her previous respected high status.

The several decade long attack on mother hood where women were shamed for wanting to be mothers, the changes that motherhood makes to the the body are evidence of this shameful behaviour.

Lia_lia

I lived in France for 4 years when I was a kid and went back there every school holiday until I was about 17 (Dad lives there). It's the same over there, people walk around naked changing rooms in swimming pools etc. So I always found it a bit weird over here in that regard. Especially when friends visit to get ready for a night out and ask where the bathroom is to change I mean, seriously?! Who cares!

I went to a music festival in Denmark a few summers ago with 3 Irish girls and my boyfriend at the time. The showers there was communal and it was normal to queue for the showers whilst naked in front of 20+ other girls. The Irish girls that I were with were petrified! They queued in their bikinis and even showered in bikinis...sure that just drew more attention to them!:rolleyes:

caseyann

Prude rules

I think you will find they walk around naked in front of men aswell.And if they knew the comments Irish men are making about them as they walk by starker,s they would cover up

In a womans shower room.No i wouldn't walk around naked waiting to take a shower,and most certainly not in the showers we have in our swimming pool and gym.Its unisex.So changing rooms are all connected.Only toilets are separate.
Reason i dont want to be naked in shower room no reason just matter of why do i need to? I dont need to.I shower at home aswell because i can relax and wash my hair and take hours as well.:p
I dont think Irish women are prude in front of other women,i think they are just respectful of other people and how they might feel about it.Its called manners.
Also i have been in loads of shower rooms for women and loads of Irish women let it hang out and dont care.


Oh and religion answer,i do not recall any one telling me ever to not be naked because of religion or to be embarrassed by my body.

Malari

Yeah, it doesn't bother me really to be naked in gym or swimming pool changing rooms, etc, but you get sort of sucked into the same "hiding" behaviour. I mean you wrap yourself in a towel before you leave the shower cubicle and change facing the wall. Letting the boobs show for a fraction of a second appears to be acceptable but the other ladyparts must be covered at all times! :rolleyes: I feel like people would think I was being rude or showing off or something if I flashed any more than that.

"Who cares?" is right.

On a recent holiday with a female friend, she brought all her clothes into the bathroom and always changed in there, despite us sharing a hotel room. I thought that was odd. She is quite a bit heavier than me, so maybe she was embarrassed about her body. But she should know by now I just don't give a crap what she looks like naked. She looks great when she is dressed!

Jelly2

caseyann wrote: »

Prude rules

I think you will find they walk around naked in front of men aswell.And if they knew the comments Irish men are making about them as they walk by starker,s they would cover up

In a womans shower room.No i wouldn't walk around naked waiting to take a shower,and most certainly not in the showers we have in our swimming pool and gym.Its unisex.So changing rooms are all connected.Only toilets are separate.
Reason i dont want to be naked in shower room no reason just matter of why do i need to? I dont need to.I shower at home aswell because i can relax and wash my hair and take hours as well.:p
I dont think Irish women are prude in front of other women,i think they are just respectful of other people and how they might feel about it.Its called manners.
Also i have been in loads of shower rooms for women and loads of Irish women let it hang out and dont care.


Oh and religion answer,i do not recall any one telling me ever to not be naked because of religion or to be embarrassed by my body.

I think you have some good points there Caseyann! It's not universal in Ireland for women to cover up - in two local pools where I'm from women wander about with bare flesh without any problem in order to get undressed/dressed, and have been doing so for quite a while. In contrast, I lived in Britain up to about four years ago, and it most definitely was not the done thing to strip off in a changing room there, so it's hard to blame catholicism for such behaviour.
Anyway, what difference does it make? Not wanting to be naked doesn't necessarily indicate prudishness, surely?

caseyann

Jelly2 wrote: »

I think you have some good points there Caseyann! It's not universal in Ireland for women to cover up - in two local pools where I'm from women wander about with bare flesh without any problem in order to get undressed/dressed, and have been doing so for quite a while. In contrast, I lived in Britain up to about four years ago, and it most definitely was not the done thing to strip off in a changing room there, so it's hard to blame catholicism for such behaviour.
Anyway, what difference does it make? Not wanting to be naked doesn't necessarily indicate prudishness, surely?

Couldnt agree with you more.
One of the other reasons i can think of is,our places are bloody freezing for a starters lol

Vinta81

Yeah I find it odd that when some friends come over they go to the bathroom or another room to put clothes on, I just whip on/whip off I don't care. Some of friends are grand about changing in ront of each other, others would rather a bathroom/spare room to put adress on, it's weird to me but I don't call them on it.

People seem a lot more self conscious here.

I don't get the person who thinks it good manners to change in a dressing room when you are using a swimming pool... people should do what ever feels comfortable for themselves but why be bothered by other women being nude...nudity doesn't bother me and i wouldn't use a dressing room to get changed at a swimming pool.

I have been swimming at a lake in Germany and about half the people swam nude nobody though anything of it and it didn't attract any perverts...i went to a nudist beach in Spain again nobody though anything of it....there are family nudist beaches in Greece...but i wouldn't not do it Ireland because here it attracts perverts which is sad and says a lot about the Irish psyche.

LegacyUser

I wish I could be more like the women who have no problem with being naked in changing rooms or on the beach. However I am just too self conscious.
Logically I know that most people would not pass any heed of me, but if the situation arises, logic goes out the window and I would get changed in a cubicle, bathroom, or under a towel.
The thing with me is that whilst happy with alot of my body[love my bust and legs ,arms ok too], I cannot stand my stomach, and am embarrassed that it is too big and flabby and not smooth and flat. It just never seems to shift, and is very disproportionate in size to the rest of me. Sometimes I think I look pregnant.

It has absolutely nothing to do with religion in my case, I was raised Catholic but never recall anything that suggested you should be ashamed of how your body looks, and my mum is the complete opposite to me-she has no problems at all with nudity.
For me it is more to do with society's portrayal of what is a nice body to look at. Because my stomach is deemed unattractive, I feel self conscious about it, and think that a small amount of women might look and be like "yuck, she should really work out more!" I know I shouldn't care about those type of people, and fully clothed I wouldn't but feel abit more vulnerable when naked.
It took my boyfriend ages to get me to feel comfortable showing my tummy naked around him, but after lots of playfulness, kisses and reassurances it paid off! :-)

To those who have the confidence to bare their bodies, try to always hold onto that confidence, because it is imo a great thing to have. I hope that someday I'll find that confidence myself.

PK2008

I have no problem walking naked around womens changing rooms...... except for the police and the screaming women.

But on a serious note- we're Irish, we're prudes -catholic guilt, Legions of Mary's, Ryan's Daughter and all that rhubarb.

I don't really think it's a prude thing. Women in the UK usually cover up when they change as well and they don't have the Catholic repression thing going on. Personally for me, it's a personal space/comfort issue. I'm not ashamed of my body or anything, I just don't want total strangers seeing my intimate body parts. I lived in a student residence a few years ago with communal showers and I hated it, it just felt like a total lack of privacy. If you're going to have an open shower, why not go one step further and take the door off the toilet? I'll change in front of people if I had to but I'd really rather not.

Lia_lia

caseyann wrote: »

I dont think Irish women are prude in front of other women,i think they are just respectful of other people and how they might feel about it.Its called manners.

But...since when does covering up in a changing room constitute as manners? Are you saying being naked in front of people is regarded as bad manners? I don't see what you're getting at..

sam34

Malari wrote: »

On a recent holiday with a female friend, she brought all her clothes into the bathroom and always changed in there, despite us sharing a hotel room. I thought that was odd. She is quite a bit heavier than me, so maybe she was embarrassed about her body. But she should know by now I just don't give a crap what she looks like naked. She looks great when she is dressed!

but clearly she gives a crap what she looks like naked and doesnt feel comfortable going naked in front of people.

why should that be seen as odd?

cpeire

Agree with the comments here. Its the same on the beaches here where people struggle under towels etc!

We went to Cap D'Agde last summer which I guess is the other extreme. Its a nudist village and feels so natural, a million miles from the Irish attitude.

We were able to shop naked, wonder to the beach etc. All the showers were communal with no shower doors etc. It was very liberating. It was hard to put on a bikini going to beach here after (not that we got the weather anyway).

There were people of all shapes and sizes and ages. We didn't tell our friends and family for fear of being judged because some people would see it is as perverse. We think the opposite is true, the Irish attidue to nudity probably leads to more pervisions!

Twee.

I have no issue around my friends. Five of us shared a flat in Berlin over the summer for a week which had one bathroom and no other room separations ("open plan"). Sure it would have taken hours to get ready of we were all nipping off to the bathroom to get changed.
I'd be a little more conservative in the gym or similar though, to be honest. I guess it's just people I don't know. Now I wouldn't be clambering to keep a towel up to my chin, but be a bit more conscious.

annieire

I would say yes. If a few of us are staying at a friends house then we take it in turn to go into the bathroom to change into our pj's. Its not like we say to each other..oh you go change in the bathroom, we just automatically do it.

Dudess

I'm not comfortable with just anyone seeing me naked - but I don't think it's to do with religion and I'm certainly not a prude. Some people are just self conscious, nothing deeper than that. And while there are bits of me I hate, there are bits of me I'm really happy with - it's not a shame thing, I'd just prefer to keep covered. If I had a perfect body I'd feel the same - then again, if I had a perfect body, I'd actually love to try burlesque striptease. So I guess it's all about context. Nudity is less taboo in other cultures, sure, but it doesn't mean they're more right or wrong.

I think the Irish catholic guilt thing, bar in relation to older generations, can be over-estimated a bit at times...

Dudess

Too shy wrote: »

The thing with me is that whilst happy with alot of my body[love my bust and legs ,arms ok too], I cannot stand my stomach, and am embarrassed that it is too big and flabby and not smooth and flat. It just never seems to shift, and is very disproportionate in size to the rest of me. Sometimes I think I look pregnant.

I hears ya. Although I bet you don't look pregnant. My stomach sticks out a bit too and lacks proportion with the rest of my shape (even did so when I was at my skinniest) and I really, really hate it - people aren't gonna be saying "Jesus look at the gut on her!" but it still irks the hell out of me.

It took my boyfriend ages to get me to feel comfortable showing my tummy naked around him, but after lots of playfulness, kisses and reassurances it paid off! :-)

Oh yeah, I used to get so coy and apologetic when I was younger re my stomach but guys would be too focused on my boobs, arse and legs to notice.
I definitely think it's more how we perceive ourselves that's the problem, not how others perceive us, but while that realisation helps, it doesn't fully eliminate the insecurities.

Lia_lia

Dudess wrote: »

I think the Irish catholic guilt thing, bar in relation to older generations, can be over-estimated a bit at times...

Yeah, I don't think it's that. It's just the culture here! It's the same in the UK.

And in other parts of Europe ie- Germany/France/Denmark they don't care about covering their bits I've noticed that in the changing room at the gym eastern european girl tend to care less about covering themselves when changing too.

Jelly2

Most definitely! It's easy to explain it by 'Catholic guilt', but that's used too explain many things in Ireland too easily. I don't think it's got anything at all to do with guilt, it's more to do with a worry about how others will perceive our bodies...
Personally, I strip openly in a changing room, but I don't particularly like doing it. I don't find it liberating, it's just a way of getting ready for the pool handily!
On nudist beaches and the attraction of perverts, this is a problem apparently at one continental nudist beach at least - notably the Cap d'Agde mentioned above. There have been major 'clashes' between traditional nudists and swingers there this year, as reported in many newspapers. So it's not necessarily an Irish 'psyche' thing to have perverts attracted to nudes - why do we always have to think we are so different to everyone else, and always in a negative way too? Could our willingness to do so be linked to feelings of inadqequacy that also contribute to our unwillingness to undress publicly? I say that somewhat flippantly, but if we are going to explain everything by generalising about the Irish 'psyche', then it's as relevant a statement as anything else...

Ickle Magoo

Lia_lia wrote: »

Yeah, I don't think it's that. It's just the culture here! It's the same in the UK.

And what do you think has led to such a culture?! People grow up watching others hiding their bodies and unable to even label body parts correctly or discuss basic function and it will have a knock on effect on body image and how comfortable people are with those bodies, even subconsciously.

It's not my experience in the UK - I can't remember people ever getting changed in toilets for sleep-overs or everyone hiding under towels at the swimming pool. Of course there are going to be people who are self-concious regardless because they are just self-concious people but IME there is a more pronounced general attitude towards nudity, among other things here than anywhere else I've ever been. That might just be co-incidence of course, but as it's a fairly common observation, I'm inclined to think it's not.

Jelly2

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And what do you think has led to such a culture?! People grow up watching others hiding their bodies and unable to even label body parts correctly or discuss basic function and it will have a knock on effect on body image and how comfortable people are with those bodies, even subconsciously.

It's not my experience in the UK - I can't remember people ever getting changed in toilets for sleep-overs or everyone hiding under towels at the swimming pool. Of course there are going to be people who are self-concious regardless because they are just self-concious people but IME there is a more pronounced general attitude towards nudity, among other things here than anywhere else I've ever been. That might just be co-incidence of course, but as it's a fairly common observation, I somehow doubt it.

I don't think that there are many people in Ireland who can't label body parts or discuss basic functions! It's taught in junior cert Biology for a start. And you might not have noticed people hiding their bodies in the UK, but I certainly did - but unfortunately both our views are based on personal experience rather than a statistical survey!
Also, shouldn't we be casting the net wider? What about the USA? Remember the outcry over Janet Jackson's nipplegate? For a huge population, the proportion of nudist beaches is not that large, and it's certainly a lot more common for people to wear togs on the beach. Maybe the reticence about shedding clothes is an English-speaking phenomenon?!

Ickle Magoo

I was thinking more of experiencing irish parenting boards and the wide variety of pet names for various body parts that are taught in place of the real ones rather than adults actually not knowing them - and PI is filled with people who haven't been told how their bodies work or feel shame in what they should enjoy...I'm not sure it's something that it's possible to deny at this stage, tbh.

Of course it's personal experience but my group of friends all from different parts of the world astonishingly all came to the same conclusion based on our own experiences - try asking someone not from here if ireland is a sexually liberated country where everyone is comfortable with sex, sexuality and nudity they will most probably laugh.

The US has "the bible belt" and lots of vocal conservative christians - see a theme? :pac:

Jelly2

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I was thinking more of experiencing irish parenting boards and the wide variety of pet names for various body parts that are taught in place of the real ones rather than adults actually not knowing them - and PI is filled with people who haven't been told how their bodies work or feel shame in what they should enjoy...I'm not sure it's something that it's possible to deny at this stage, tbh.

Of course it's personal experience but my group of friends all from different parts of the world astonishingly all came to the same conclusion based on our own experiences - try asking someone not from here if ireland is a sexually liberated country where everyone is comfortable with sex, sexuality and nudity they will most probably laugh.

The US has "the bible belt" and lots of vocal conservative christians - see a theme? :pac:

Don't really see why using pet names for body parts is that big a deal - that's universally done isn't it? Not sure about PI and whether that's representative of people in general or different to what you would find on a similar forum in at least some other countries. Maybe, maybe not?
I do think you are right that Irish people are not comfortable with nudity, and certainly not as comfortable as continentals. And you are right, the US has plenty of vocal conservative Christians, but has Britain? Or Australia? Or New Zealand? All English-speaking countries with no great taste for nudity.

Gyalist

The strange thing is that even from a very young age, women in Ireland generally dress far more revealingly for a night out than other Europeans (with the exception of Britain), yet seem to have this mortal dread of being naked in reasonably private spaces.

Ickle Magoo

Jelly2 wrote: »

Don't really see why using pet names for body parts is that big a deal - that's universally done isn't it? Not sure about PI and whether that's representative of people in general or different to what you would find on a similar forum in at least some other countries. Maybe, maybe not?
I do think you are right that Irish people are not comfortable with nudity, and certainly not as comfortable as continentals. And you are right, the US has plenty of vocal conservative Christians, but has Britain? Or Australia? Or New Zealand? All English-speaking countries with no great taste for nudity.

Not where I come from no. I had never actually heard of the concept of a pet name for child's genitalia before moving here - infact real names are recommended to deter child abuse afaik. Well, PI was just me trying to offer more than personal testament - I'm not sure it's representative either but put together with news articles, radio programmes, a mixture of forums and talking to a wide variety of people from a wide variety of countries and a prevailing theme is certainly evident - how prevailing is subjective, of course.

I've never known Australians or New Zealanders to be particularly body concious, tbh - the US yes, although one could argue hang-ups are going to be exported with large numbers of emigrates. There is a well known stereotype of "It's just not British" type conservative and prudish attitude in the south of england but that's not something that's commonly shared by the whole 60 million population in the UK. Of course, this is all me making huge generalities about swathes of population and like here, the younger the generation the less prudish they tend to be.

Jelly2

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Not where I come from no. I had never actually heard of the concept of a pet name for child's genitalia before moving here - infact real names are recommended to deter child abuse afaik. Well, PI was just me trying to offer more than personal testament - I'm not sure it's representative either but put together with news articles, radio programmes, a mixture of forums and talking to a wide variety of people from a wide variety of countries and a prevailing theme is certainly evident - how prevailing is subjective, of course.

I've never known Australians or New Zealanders to be particularly body concious, tbh - the US yes, although one could argue hang-ups are going to be exported with large numbers of emigrates. There is a well known stereotype of "It's just not British" type conservative and prudish attitude in the south of england but that's not something that's commonly shared by the whole 60 million population in the UK. Of course, this is all me making huge generalities about swathes of population and like here, the younger the generation the less prudish they tend to be.

Well, when I worked in France, the family for whom I worked used the term 'kiki' to refer to the penis of a child. This was not a word they just made up, it was common slang (One of my jobs was helping to look after the children).
Anyway, you elaborate partly on the point that I was trying to make in mentioning other English-speaking countries in your second paragraph! I think that it's not just a Catholic 'thing' as many seem to assume by using terms like 'Catholic guilt' (as if Catholics are the only Christians to suffer a guilt arising from a belief in the suffering and sacrifice of a God for mankind's sins), but something else to do with anglophone civilisation. But I can't put my finger on exactly what that might be - maybe your final comment above has something to do with it? Restraint and reserve as fundamental values etc?

Jelly2

Another thing about Britain! I don't know any other country that has such a 'peekaboo' way of dealing with sex - Carry-on, Page Three - it's all tongue-in-cheek, hints (albeit sometimes fairly blatant) and innuendo rather than full frontal nudity if you like. It's the equivalent of giving petnames or joke names to body parts! I suppose it neutralises the serious or 'dangerous' or unsettling elements of anything to do with sex....

I don't think its anything to do with catholic church or anything like that ..thats a form of lazy thinking blame the catholic church for everything ...people have to take responsibly for them selves thats for another thread:p....

Some of it is understandably to do with ideas of beauty and perfection and feeling inadequate if you don't think you look like that...i am lucky that i am matter of fact about my body.

Ickle Magoo

Jelly2 wrote: »

Another thing about Britain! I don't know any other country that has such a 'peekaboo' way of dealing with sex - Carry-on, Page Three - it's all tongue-in-cheek, hints (albeit sometimes fairly blatant) and innuendo rather than full frontal nudity if you like. It's the equivalent of giving petnames or joke names to body parts! I suppose it neutralises the serious or 'dangerous' or unsettling elements of anything to do with sex....

I'm not sure if a comedy or tradition that's 40 odd years old is the same as people today finding the proper terms for genitalia so shameful or embarrassing that they can teach their child to say leg but not vulva...red tops would tend to have popularity specific to particular demographics as Carry On films are popular with the older generations rather than either being an important relevant social commentary. Go into any newsagent in the UK and there are shelves of much more explicit material now - not up on the top shelf like it used to be either! :eek:

Perhaps the general vociferous defensiveness also tells it's own story?

Edited to add:

Jelly2 wrote: »

Well, when I worked in France, the family for whom I worked used the term 'kiki' to refer to the penis of a child. This was not a word they just made up, it was common slang (One of my jobs was helping to look after the children).

Just on this point, there are literally dozens of common slang words for genitalia in every language, parents teaching & children knowing the anatomically correct title yet choosing to use common slang in everyday conversation wasn't really what I was talking about - an irish parenting forum was the first time I'd ever witnessed a discussion about parents deliberately avoiding teaching their children the proper names for their genitalia in favour of personally made-up pet names and cutesy titles; not generic slangs mind, anything made up to avoid having to say the real thing - I've since asked around about it and found that it's not actually that unusual to do that here. Whether that's common in other parts of the world, I have no idea - it's certainly something I had no idea happened prior to moving here.

Jelly2

I was thinking historically, but should have said so! But the demographic groups that you mention are large and still existing so while they may not represent everyone in Britain, the attitude that they present is still notable to the outsider.
You means Nuts or whatever it's called and those type of magazines I guess, by your final comment. True, more blatant, and more aggressively anti-women in many ways - better to be treated as a rack of meat a la Nuts or a simpering bunny as a P3? Hard choice:mad: But a discussion for a different thread...

Anyway, back to the issue at hand! The point about demographics is universal...in Ireland as much as anywhere else. Generally speaking, I think that age is hugely important in considering Irish women's attitudes to nudity. However, even my mother has gotten over her inclination to shield her body from her daughters!
But I also still think that 'modesty' was not just to do with Catholic teaching. Modesty was also a Protestant teaching, but it was also a secular virtue for generations....Modesty in dress and modesty in demeanour was thought to demonstrate modesty in character. Hence the Anglophone (not just British) preocupation with it?

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I was thinking more of experiencing irish parenting boards and the wide variety of pet names for various body parts that are taught in place of the real ones rather than adults actually not knowing them - and PI is filled with people who haven't been told how their bodies work or feel shame in what they should enjoy...I'm not sure it's something that it's possible to deny at this stage, tbh.

Of course it's personal experience but my group of friends all from different parts of the world astonishingly all came to the same conclusion based on our own experiences - try asking someone not from here if ireland is a sexually liberated country where everyone is comfortable with sex, sexuality and nudity they will most probably laugh.

The US has "the bible belt" and lots of vocal conservative christians - see a theme? :pac:

I dont remember anyone changing in the bathroom for sleepovers either or in the lockerroom for gym [the US]. We all just stripped off and changed in a shared room. Maybe one or two did, who were raised in cultures with particular modesty but as a rule no.

Neither do we use pet names for genitalia with kids as a general rule.

But Irish people imo are more self concious about everything always worrying about what the neighbors think and what other people thing, its a weird kind of self centredness or maybe symptomatic of a judgemental culture, in that the neighbors are judging you? People are judging you?

I do think there is a long legacy of repression and puritanism. James Joyce couldnt have come out of any other culture, its a straight out bi product of repressive puritanism.

To say its Catholic is hogwash. Too many other Catholic countries dont have this prudery.

Jelly2

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dont remember anyone changing in the bathroom for sleepovers either or in the lockerroom for gym [the US]. We all just stripped off and changed in a shared room. Maybe one or two did, who were raised in cultures with particular modesty but as a rule no.

Neither do we use pet names for genitalia with kids as a general rule.

But Irish people imo are more self concious about everything always worrying about what the neighbors think and what other people thing, its a weird kind of self centredness or maybe symptomatic of a judgemental culture, in that the neighbors are judging you? People are judging you?

I do think there is a long legacy of repression and puritanism. James Joyce couldnt have come out of any other culture, its a straight out bi product of repressive puritanism.

To say its Catholic is hogwash. Too many other Catholic countries dont have this prudery.

Interesting about the US, and confuses me even more! So the French do use petnames, the Irish do, but the US and Britain doesn't...hard to know what to make of this!

Self-consciousness and fear of judgment are definitely at play, you are right. We aim to please, and fear we can't it seems. Is it too simplistic to link it to our historical past as a governed island?

Ickle Magoo

metrovelvet wrote: »

To say its Catholic is hogwash. Too many other Catholic countries dont have this prudery.

Other catholic countries are far more secular and don't allow their religious bodies such control over their societies, laws & behaviours up to present day - I'm not suggesting the catholic church single-handedly was the cause of puritanical ireland but I think it's impossible to discount the effect that generations of church led education and church control in politics and society at large and the dogmas and shames and puritanical stances, widespread and accepted up until very recently will have had on the irish psyche - the degree and longevity of which isn't as evident in other countries.

Jelly2 wrote:

Self-consciousness and fear of judgment are definitely at play, you are right. We aim to please, and fear we can't it seems. Is it too simplistic to link it to our historical past as a governed island?

No, I don't think so. I think it's also impossible to discount the effects of such devastating events as invasion, swathes of population dying of starvation and poverty and mass emigration - holding onto historic values and traditions for comfort or self-image issues could certainly be caused by such trauma.

parker kent

Dudess wrote: »

I think the Irish catholic guilt thing, bar in relation to older generations, can be over-estimated a bit at times...

It has given us inherited inhibitions about nudity, sex etc. Whilst the actual religious side of things is not as pronounced as before, the effects of Ireland being a Catholic country are felt. It would be odd if we went in 2 generations to being an open country about nudity or sexuality. Thought processes and beliefs still pass through the generations.

We are socialized in these behaviours, but they are changing a little each generation, but it takes time. This thread shows that people now view it as odd to think like this, but are still afraid to stand out. In another generation, that will probably change again.

Edit: When I say Catholic, I mean the particular form of Irish Catholicism that dominated the majority of public opinion. We are moving slowly from being an extremely conservative country to being more open. Also, Ireland was not as prudish in centuries past, that is a 20th Century phenomenon. Which is funnily enough the century that the Catholic Church had the most power in Ireland.

Reward

Jelly2 wrote: »

Most definitely! It's easy to explain it by 'Catholic guilt', but that's used too explain many things in Ireland too easily. I don't think it's got anything at all to do with guilt, it's more to do with a worry about how others will perceive our bodies...
Personally, I strip openly in a changing room, but I don't particularly like doing it. I don't find it liberating, it's just a way of getting ready for the pool handily!
On nudist beaches and the attraction of perverts, this is a problem apparently at one continental nudist beach at least - notably the Cap d'Agde mentioned above. There have been major 'clashes' between traditional nudists and swingers there this year, as reported in many newspapers. So it's not necessarily an Irish 'psyche' thing to have perverts attracted to nudes - why do we always have to think we are so different to everyone else, and always in a negative way too? Could our willingness to do so be linked to feelings of inadqequacy that also contribute to our unwillingness to undress publicly? I say that somewhat flippantly, but if we are going to explain everything by generalising about the Irish 'psyche', then it's as relevant a statement as anything else...

So swingers are threatening "perverts", where does that idea come from if not religion?

Jelly2

Reward wrote: »

So swingers are threatening "perverts", where does that idea come from if not religion?

Well, 'problems' in the sense that it is not swingers per se that are the problem as the naturalists see it - they say their problem is that a minority have been making them feel uncomfortable by performing sex acts on the beach.
Personally, I don't think swingers are perverts. As for where the idea that they are comes from, I don't know. Possibly religion, but since teachings on monogamous marriage predate Christianity or even Judaism I am not sure.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Other catholic countries are far more secular and don't allow their religious bodies such control over their societies, laws & behaviours up to present day - I'm not suggesting the catholic church single-handedly was the cause of puritanical ireland but I think it's impossible to discount the effect that generations of church led education and church control in politics and society at large and the dogmas and shames and puritanical stances, widespread and accepted up until very recently will have had on the irish psyche - the degree and longevity of which isn't as evident in other countries.



No, I don't think so. I think it's also impossible to discount the effects of such devastating events as invasion, swathes of population dying of starvation and poverty and mass emigration - holding onto historic values and traditions for comfort or self-image issues could certainly be caused by such trauma.

I think yes, the theocracy did not help. But I have not come across Catholocism like it anywhere else. Its the only country where the kiss of peace is a handshake.

It also strikes me historically, as being very similar to some Islamic attitudes. Maybe even worse.

Of course swingers aren't threating perverts wouldn't not be my cup tea in the slightest.. each to his own ... but men on their own openly masturbating while on a nudist beach are!!!...which is apparently what has happened in Ireland....There isn't anything remotely sexual about swimming on a nudist beach...

Jelly2

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think yes, the theocracy did not help. But I have not come across Catholocism like it anywhere else. Its the only country where the kiss of peace is a handshake.

It also strikes me historically, as being very similar to some Islamic attitudes. Maybe even worse.

That's not true. The handshake is used in many churches worldwide. Did you know that the kiss of peace was in fact done on a board (the pax) passed around the congregation until the late sixteenth century, and was then universally abandoned until Vatican II in favour of the handshake? Now it's up to local churches whether they decide to use the kiss or the hand.

Eve_Dublin

Sorry, didn´t get a chance to read the last half of the replies...could it be something to do with the fact that we don´t have Summers here where you can reveal flesh whereas probably most countries in Europe, if not all bar the UK, do? I spent a lot of time naked here in Spain during the Summer a) because of the heat in my apartment...no ac and b) because everyone else was (nuddy lake up in the mountains...and to be honest, I was terrified at the start but if you keep on doing something you´re terrified of, you get over it. The Spanish have been running around half naked for about 50% of the year since they were born.