What to expect

Not Just Mammy

Hi all,

I went to see my new puppy today. All pups appeared well fed and clean, although perhaps a bit 'fraidy catty' but I'm assuming that will wear off! The Dam seemed well looked after although a little thin from the feeding, I expect. The breeder showed me the family tree of the Dam and the IKC registration papers - with the Dam and the Sire's names - (although I do confess that it didn't make much sense to me!!). I paid a deposit and got a reciept.
In a week they will receive their last shots and be chipped, so I'm free to collect her any time after that.

My question is this... what should I expect to receive - paperwork-wise - along with my puppy?
A friend of mine has mentioned a birth cert for her dog with his name on it, although how that came about, I admit I don't know as I've never had a 'posh dog' before :P

I just want to know that I'm walking out of there with all paperwork that I need, as the litter was apparently registered (although someone has said they can't be registered until they are chipped so I'm confused!)

Any advice is much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Not Just Mammy

boomerang

Warning bells ringing here, I'm afraid.

If the pups appear nervous OP, it's a bad sign. They probably haven't had the socialisation that's crucial at that age to set them up for life as well-adjusted, confident, outgoing dogs. That or it's a genetic inheritance. What breed are they and how old are the pups?

I got my dog as a 12 week old pup. She hadn't been well socialised. This means she had lived a very sheltered existence with just her mum, siblings and the lady who was looking after them. She wasn't exposed to lots of different people and places up to that point. This is so important as pups go through a sensitive period of behavioural development up to about 12 weeks of age. If they are not given lots of different experiences and introduced to all kinds of people during that time, they can lack the coping skills needed later on to help them deal with all the new experiences life throws at them.The pups should already have mixed with all kinds of people and been introduced to the sights and sounds of family life lso that they greet visitors like yourselves with curiosity and a wagging tail.

My pup was hesitant and nervous about new people, new places, new experiences. She didn't grow out of it and if you don't handle it well, they can develop fear aggression which is a pickle of a problem to try and overcome.

Neither should the mum be thin after the pups - that's entirely avoidable.

Are you sure that the paperwork you were shown was the real paperwork for the sire and dam? It's quite possible the pedigrees you were shown belong to other dogs entirely. It's very common. A good breeder will be able to supply you with a pedigree chart for your pup going back at least a few generations (to rule out inbreeding, which increases the risk of illness) as well as the IKC certificate of registration for your puppy. You should also look for a worming record (really important) and a vaccination certificate, as well as the microchip number and info on how to transfer the microchip details over to your own name and address. Also ask the breeder what health tests have been done for the sire and dam to rule out the possibility of your puppy having hereditary diseases. I know you've paid a deposit, but if the breeder can't supply you with all the above info, then I'd definitely be walking away.

This pup is going to be your beloved pet for (hopefully) the next ten to fifteen years. It's a monumental decision and I just think you can't be too careful about where you source your pup. You want to do as much as you can to ensure that your pup is healthy and behaviourally sound so she has the best start in life.

lorebringer

Paperwork that is needed when taking a pup home are IKC registration papers, microchip registration info, worming certs (with dates), any vet certs and vaccination certs (these should have stickers from the vaccination on them and the date they were administered). If the breeder says they will forward any of these on to you, it's a red flag and walk away. Once you get your puppy, bring it along to your own vet to have it checked over and also to discuss when it will need its next vaccination, next round of worming etc.

To IKC register a litter both parents and pups must be microchipped, often times the breeder will chip themselves and give the numbers to the IKC. The breeder may have a lot of microchips in the house, assign a number to each pup for registration and then insert the chip after the fact. The one word of advice I will give on this is when you are looking over the paperwork make sure all microchip numbers match up - on registration papers, on IKC papers and on any vet papers. Some (bad) breeders will give out papers willy nilly without actually having gotten the pup registered so making sure all the paperwork matches up is very important.

Not Just Mammy

Thanks for the information, both of you. As I said, I'm not used to all this rigmarole of paperwork for dogs. I've had dogs for as long as I can remember, and even a couple of purebreeds (pomeranian and scottish terrier) but as far as I know we've never had the paperwork. The dog was more important than the slips of paper :P

But now that I'm settled into my own home and my children are that bit older, we've decided to get a dog that I've spent years researching (a Siberian Husky) and I literally kept my eye on several sites (gumtree, donedeal,etc.) for the right offer for me.

I came across a litter for offer in Athlone, and got a few pictures and some info from the breeder, and even drove from Naas to his home yesterday (we got lost several times and ended up on the motorway to Cork, but that's another adventure!)

When we got there, he got the pups out of the barn, where they had been staying with Mama, with some red lights for warmth, and they skittered around the garden. They were fat little bundles of fluff, and while they did seem a bit nervous, running away when I approached, one or two of them did come forward to chew on my trouser leg lol so I'm assuming it was just me being a new person that made them skittish, since not all of them were.

There were three children in the home of the breeder, and we all know kids can't leave puppies alone, so they must have some interaction. The Mama, was, as I said, quite thin, and the breeder pointed it out to me, and said she'd gone so thin from the feeding. There were 7 pups in the litter.

He invited me into his home, where he showed me a yellow cert with the Dam's name, and the Sire's name, and on the bottom right corner there was a previous owner, I think. Was this the proper paperwork? There was also a photocopy of same, and a family tree.

He assured me they had already been wormed, and were getting chipped next Saturday. And I could collect any time after. I paid him a small deposit of 50 euro, for which he wrote me out a receipt.

Everything appeared aboveboard, but to be honest with you guys, I wouldn't really know. I have some pictures he sent me two weeks ago, and took a couple myself yesterday, if anyone would like to have a look at the pups... perhaps you can see something in her that I'm missing cos I'm in love with her lol

Cherry Blossom

You are probably not going to like this but reputable breeders don't generally advertise on sites like donedeal etc. The reason for this is because people actively seek them out and they tend to have waiting lists far in advance for all their pups. I'm quite surprised you haven't came across this in your research. The main places people look would be IKC shows and the breed clubs. Have you researched which genetic illnesses are common in the breed and what tests should have been done on the parents to determine if they are carriers of these problems? It's also essential that puppies are raised within the family home for their mental and behavioural development and wellbeing. I wouldn't touch a puppy that was reared in a box of straw in a shed. These two things would be top of my list ahead of any 'papers'. Anyone who has done proper health testing though is most likely to have everything else in order.

The first thing I would do when considering any puppy is ask the breeder what health problems are common in the breed, if they are unable to give the correct information which I will already have researched that's the end of the line for that breeder straight away.

lrushe

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Hi all,

I went to see my new puppy today. All pups appeared well fed and clean, although perhaps a bit 'fraidy catty' but I'm assuming that will wear off! The Dam seemed well looked after although a little thin from the feeding, I expect. The breeder showed me the family tree of the Dam and the IKC registration papers - with the Dam and the Sire's names - (although I do confess that it didn't make much sense to me!!). I paid a deposit and got a reciept.
In a week they will receive their last shots and be chipped, so I'm free to collect her any time after that.

My question is this... what should I expect to receive - paperwork-wise - along with my puppy?
A friend of mine has mentioned a birth cert for her dog with his name on it, although how that came about, I admit I don't know as I've never had a 'posh dog' before :P

I just want to know that I'm walking out of there with all paperwork that I need, as the litter was apparently registered (although someone has said they can't be registered until they are chipped so I'm confused!)

Any advice is much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Not Just Mammy

The puppies shouldn't be timid, maybe one out of the litter would be less forthcoming than others but as a whole puppies should be out going and eager to meet strangers.
A well maintained dam should only slightly loose condition but overall with extra care put into her nutrition while caring for pups she shouldn't look anyway skinny, if anything she should look a little plumper.
What breed of dog is your pup? Did the breeder show you any health certs for the parent, or proof of any titles the parents achieved to show they were fit to be bred?
IKC paperwork, while a start really only shows that the parents of your pup were purebred, it shows nothing of their health or fitness to be bred.
With your pup you should get the IKC cert the breeder recieved when registering the litter, the breeder will sign the back and you will need to send this into the IKC to change your pup into your name. It usually costs €15. You should also get your pups vaccination card to show what injections your pup has recieved, you will need to bring this along to your vet when you bring your pup down for it's first checkup when you bring it home. Also you will recieve the microchip card with your pups microchip information on it, you will need this to go online and change the microchip information into your name, address and other information.
Hope this help!

boomerang

OP if the owner of the bitch is breeding from her as a business, then his children mightn't have been next nor near the pups. If he's into breeding all the time, the novelty will have long worn off with his kids.

Really, pups intended for pet homes should be reared in the home, and not in an outbuilding. Not for reasons of comfort, but to expose them to the sights, sounds and people that make up a family home, at the age at which they are soaking up experiences that will largely determine their temperatment in the years to come.

Huskies are a very self-contained breed in general I think so it's all the more important that they show signs of sociability from young.

I know you've fallen in love with the pup but I really do think you should walk away.

I'd go on www.tailsandtrails.ie and ask for the forum members there for some advice on where to source a husky puppy, they are a very friendly lot, most are husky owners and I think there are even one or two breeders there who could direct you to a good breeder.

I know you have made a lot of effort to go and see these pups and put down a deposit but I would hold out and get advice and some breeder recommendations. The husky is a big, strong, willful breed. The last thing you want is a Husky with issues, believe me!

andreac

Did you see any health certs like Hip/elbow scoring results? It is vital that breeds like Huskies have been hip scored as they can have problems with their hips later in life so you need to make sure both parents have been hip scored etc and they are healthy.

Sites like Gum tree and donedeal are actually the worst places you can buy a pedigree dog as they are full of puppy farmers and back yard breeders who dont put any thought into breeding and do so mainly for money.

I would always go through the breed club and get a breeder recommended to me if i was looking for a pedigree dog so you might have to reconsider the puppies that you have already seen.

Sigma Force

Now ok huskies are more suited to outdoor life they are generally more comfortable because of their thick coats etc. However I wouldn't buy from this breeder because the pups should be all in the house with the mum so they can be properly socialised from the beginning.

The mum would be a bit thin but shouldn't be significantly thin because the owner should be feeding her a high quality food to keep the weight up if she appears thin through that thick coat I'd be very wary though.

Not Just Mammy

Hey guys, thanks so much for all your info and advice. I've been in touch with my breeder again, just to be on the safe side.. he has all those papers mentioned, but the IKC papers will take a further 2-3 weeks, as they are only being chipped this Saturday. This all sounds above-board, I reckon.

I think you all might have gotten the wrong idea when I said Mama was thin.. she was thin...but not overly so. Just a little worn around the edges, I think. I know that whenever my bitch had pups when I was younger she got a bit thin from all the feeding, even with extra food of high quality.

Which brings another question to mind. Do any of you guys stand by the "Real food, not dog food" opinion? I know a lot of debate has gone on over this lately, and I really do want to feed my puppy the best thing for her. There are so many additives and chemicals in dog food, that it makes me wonder if real meat and veg would be better for her. Although there are those who would say home cooking (scraps as some would call it) is an awful diet for a dog.

The argument is that before dog food became widely available, we fed our dogs what we fed ourselves, and they lived longer for it. I don't know... opinions?

And booster shots once a year... there is also argument over this, to say they are not needed yearly, as the antibodies are already produced from the first shot, and anything more is just confusing the system, and making it less efficient. Opinions on this are also welcome

Cherry Blossom

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Which brings another question to mind. Do any of you guys stand by the "Real food, not dog food" opinion? I know a lot of debate has gone on over this lately, and I really do want to feed my puppy the best thing for her. There are so many additives and chemicals in dog food, that it makes me wonder if real meat and veg would be better for her. Although there are those who would say home cooking (scraps as some would call it) is an awful diet for a dog.

The argument is that before dog food became widely available, we fed our dogs what we fed ourselves, and they lived longer for it. I don't know... opinions?

Really in my opinion you have 2 options a high quality low protein dry dog food or biologically appropriate raw food: beef, lamb, chicken muscle meat on the bone, offal (heart, liver etc.) and occasionally a small amount of grated carrot. The raw option is going to cost you a complete fortune for such a big dog so I'd go with the first option!

The first thing you should consider is what food the breeder is currently feeding and determine if it is appropriate. Big dogs need slow steady growth so their bones grow properly and evenly, the general consencus is high quality kibble around the 23% protein mark for the first year while the dog is growing and switch to a lower protien food when most of the growing is done. High cost dog food does not always mean high quality and if you search on this forum for different brands you will find a lot of information here. Burns is an excellent food made from basic high-quality ingredients and isn't the most expensive. I find the most cost effective way to buy dog food is online via zooplus.co.uk (they have a .ie site but generally more expensive and it all gets shipped from the same place and burns dog food isn't listed on it :rolleyes:) I sure other posters will recommend other brands for you to have a look at, you can finf full ingredient lists and nutritional info on the zooplus site also.

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

And booster shots once a year... there is also argument over this, to say they are not needed yearly, as the antibodies are already produced from the first shot, and anything more is just confusing the system, and making it less efficient. Opinions on this are also welcome

You will find opinions on this in old threads as well You need the initial puppy shots and the first booster after 1 year, afer this the dog will have to be tested for it's immunity to all the various things the vaccinations protect against and will get vaccinated for those it doesn't have enough immunity towards. You need to consider if a situation may ever arise that you may need to put your dog in kennells for any reason. I would have a kennells in mind and check with them what their policy is on this as a lot require yearly up to date vaccinations including kennell cough (which is seperate).

boomerang

Some viral vaccines such as that for parvo are proven effective for up to three years, so you could opt to only vaccinate for parvo every third year. But then, all the vaccines are usually combined in an eight-in-one shot, so it's not practical to pick and choose what boosters your dog should get every year.

Certainly I would be vaccinating against leptospirosis every year as the vaccination is only effective for up to twelve months. My dogs are seniors now. I no longer vaccinate routinely every year, with the exception of Lepto.

dvet

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

And booster shots once a year... there is also argument over this, to say they are not needed yearly, as the antibodies are already produced from the first shot, and anything more is just confusing the system, and making it less efficient. Opinions on this are also welcome

Hi OP, you may find this link useful - it's a post on the current veterinary thinking on boosters, from another thread. Hope it helps!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69394333#post69394333


(The summary is that your dog will need boosters for some diseases at least every 3 years, and for others at least every year - so basically, they will still need at least 1 shot every year!). If you have questions on why these are the minimum recommendations, i'll try to answer them for you

Edit: what boomerang said is a good summary!

daenerysstormborn3

Agree with everything said on here I'm afraid in relation to warning bells ringing.

Any good breeder would be able to avoid their bitch becoming noticeably thin by upping her food intake so that she can cope with the feedings, that is common sense really for any breeder and most certainly you would want her to look her best for prospective puppy owners.

As regards food I feed a raw diet to my dog and it is more beneficial to the dog and he enjoys it more than kibble. The raw diet is expensive. I have a great dane and he eats a lot but I get a lot of it free from the local butcher. Biggest expense for me in relation to his feeding was buying a separate chest freezer to store all of the meat in. Google Dr Ian Billinghurst for more info on raw feeding if you are interested. Zooplus usually do good special offers like buy one get one free on most of the bags of kibble. You might find that they are still not worth the money though. The largest bag of royal canin would only last my dog 3 weeks and that would be really stretching it. You need to bear in mind as well what the breeder is currently feeding the pups and what she has raised the line on.

Any good breeder imo would be more than happy to provide hip and elbow scores for their dogs and I believe it should be done before breeding any breed of dog.

I was provided with a 5 generation dog pedigree for my boy.

Also, as one of the other posters said donedeal and gumtree etc wouldn't be the most desirable places to buy puppies from. Not saying they're all bad and I'm sure there are plenty of people who have gotten puppies that way and had no problems whatsoever but any good breeder will have a reputation that speaks for itself and litters will be spoken for far in advance. I was very lucky to get my dog from the breeder I got him from (a UK breeder) and have had this remarked upon by loads of people who know by the look of him where he's from. That is one of the many examples of a good breeder.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

ISDW

What are the hip and eye scores for the dam and sire? If the breeder hasn't done these tests, then please, please walk away.

The average hip score for a sibe is 7 and the general consensus is that anything over a 10 shouldn't be bred from, unless there is something very special about the dog, and the other parent has a low enough score to compensate.

The eyes should be clear.

If you'd like to pm me the name of the breeder, maybe I can let you know if I would consider this to be a reputable breeder.

Sibes can have 'difficult' stomachs, what food is the breeder using?

andreac

Did you ask about hip/elbow scoring and eye tests?

The Sweeper

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks so much for all your info and advice. I've been in touch with my breeder again, just to be on the safe side.. he has all those papers mentioned, but the IKC papers will take a further 2-3 weeks, as they are only being chipped this Saturday. This all sounds above-board, I reckon.

I think you all might have gotten the wrong idea when I said Mama was thin.. she was thin...but not overly so. Just a little worn around the edges, I think. I know that whenever my bitch had pups when I was younger she got a bit thin from all the feeding, even with extra food of high quality.

Look, Not Just Mammy, in all honesty, the lack of papers or presence of papers doesn't alarm me at all as much as a bitch and pups in a shed under a heat lamp.

Puppies need to be reared "at home and underfoot". These pups won't have encounted a hoover, a television, the radio, the blender, won't know the oven-front is hot, won't have heard the washing maching on spin cycle, won't recognise the doorbell, and possibly won't have seen many other people apart from their breeder.

Can these issues be overcome in a young pup?

Yes, of course they can. But that's not the point - the point is you shouldn't be paying pedigree rates for that kind of a pup.

Here's what an ethical breeder does, in my opinion:

• Introduces you to the dam and the sire.
• Is happy to have you come to their house, where the bitch and her pups are inside the house watching the through-traffic and experiencing the sights and sounds of family life. They're not necessarily being handled by all and sundry, because they've not been vaccinated yet, but they're certainly included in daily life.
• Shows you the papers on the dam and the sire.
• Explains the registration process on the pups.
• Shows you hip and elbow scores on the parents.
• Organises microchipping and vaccinations on the pup as part of the sale price.
• Allows you to choose your own pup.
• Negotiates the best leaving date for the pup - which should be at LEAST 8 weeks, but preferably closer to 10 weeks. They should not protest if you can't take the pup until 12 weeks, in other words they shouldn't be anxious to shift them (can indicate that they want to mate the bitch again quickly).
• Should answer honestly the number of litters the bitch has had.
• Asks you a whole load of questions about your circumstances, your life, the time you have to spend with the dog, your kids, your garden, what you'll do with the dog if you go on holidays or if you're sick, so on.
• Makes it clear from the outset that if your circumstances change or there is a problem with the pup, THEY will take it back and you should contact them first and not go to the pound or rehome it yourself.
• Gives you advice on feeding the pup and training the pup, possibly including providing you with a starter bag of food included in the price of the puppy.
• May give you a pamphlet outlining what you need to buy before you take your pup home - e.g. beds, bowls, leads, collars, so on.
• May even provide a 'puppy kit' on the day you collect your pup - paperwork, any required meds, reminder dates for vaccination appointments, desexing voucher, pamphlet on your breed, contact details for a trainer or puppy class in your area, bag of food, blanket that smells of home, so on.
• Discusses desexing of the pup - this is VITAL, any breeder worth their salt will be very attentive to what YOUR plans are for the THEIR pup, and may include a caveat about desexing. Some ethical breeders will provide a desexing voucher with the pup, others will organise to get in contact with you again around desexing time.

That, to me, is what a pedigree purchase experience involves from an ethical breeder. That demonstrates care and attention for the bitch and for her pups, not just euro signs over the head of each puppy.

I know you've fallen in love with this pup, and to be honest I'm pretty certain that you're going to go ahead with the adoption regardless, but what you've described in your posts is just not best practice by an ethical breeder.

Backyard breeders cross all kinds of -oodles and -doodles and generate hundreds of thousands of SWFs (small white fluffies) and we KNOW they're a nuisance - no health tests, no papers, no pedigree.

Puppy farms need no introduction on this site and I'm pretty sure nobody would go to one.

Breeders however - registered does not mean ethical. Papers for the dog does not equal care, attention, health scoring, and breeding that lives up to the standard that breeding is supposed to live up to - which is people who are passionate about a breed, mating dogs to produce puppies that are classic examples of the breed they love. It means taking back puppies who are unwanted in the future. It means being willing to rescue dogs just because they love that breed. It means basically eating, sleeping and breeding their dogs.

Honest to God, the most ethical breeders I've met of both cats and dogs are absolute fruitcakes, their entire lives are about their animals, they take better care of the animals' health than their own, and you'll regularly see their animals eat better than they do! But while they're madder than a bucket of spiders, someone like that is the only person I'd purchase a pedigree animal from.

Not Just Mammy

You're right The Sweeper, I will go ahead and take the pup, simply because I've fallen in love with her. But for future reference I will certainly be more careful in choosing a breeder in the future - as I can see these little balls of fuzz turning into a slight addiction.

Perhaps if I'd had all the information before I actually *saw* her, I'd back away slowly and turn tail and run. But I fear it's too late and I already consider her mine, part of the family, nice little spot in the kitchen picked out for her, kids excited, walk routes planned out, and a Vet picked. I've already named her lol

And to be honest, even if she's not worth the money in terms of pedigree/trouble, she's worth any amount of money to me, cos she's part of the fold now
If she turns out to be a bit of an anti-social diva at first, that's fine, I have two girls of my own, one of which has entered that tween era, and is giving me a run for my money already, so she'll fit right in. I'll deal with it, and love her all the same. It will probably be extremely trying and difficult to acclimate her to the sights and sounds of family life since she's been reared in a barn, but we'll get there :P Nothing worth doing, was ever easy! And if this breeder turns out to be a bad sort, at least I'll have given one of the poor unfortunates a good home.

I have dealt with difficult dogs before. We took in a rescue dog when I was younger. A miniature sheepdog, from a very abusive home, who would hide in the darkest corner if anybody so much as looked at her. But after a while - a long while - she was as happy and bouncy as any other little doggy.

He did introduce me to the dam but not the sire.
He was happy for me to come into his home, where another dog was trotting around, but the pups and dam were in the barn (not a shed, an honest to god barn).
He did show me the papers, both registration and family tree.
The vaccinations and chipping are part of the price.
I chose my own pup.
He's happy to hold on to the pup until the papers come back in 3 weeks time, even though she's ready to go in a few days.
I never thought to ask about previous litters or hip scores on the day I was there.
He has said he'll give me some of the food they are on (complete mother and puppy food?) but he hasn't started any training with them, and the mother is not trained at all either.

If I get duped, it's my own folly. It'll all work out in the end

ISDW

Its actually not about getting duped, its about buying from puppy farmers - who are very good at not looking like puppy farmers and keeping that industry going in this country, thereby ensuring thousands of dogs keep on suffering. I am not saying that this breeder is a puppy farmer, but without the relevant health checks etc, then it would appear that is what he is. I'm really sorry, but I don't understand why you would come on here asking for information and advice when you have absolutely no intention of listening to any of it?

When you say the mother isn't trained, what do you mean?

Which brand of food is the mother on?

Not Just Mammy

Oh no he has the health certs, I just didn't think to ask for them on the day I was there, but I'll be seeing them before I take the pup away. And he's agreed to a 48 hour window where I can get my pup seen to by my own vet, and if there are any problems, I'll be bringing her back.

The advice I asked for was what papers to expect to take away with my puppy, ISDW, and I have listened to that, and am very grateful for it.

When I said the mother wasn't trained I meant, at all. She's not housetrained or anything, which struck me as shocking, but then again if she's an outside dog... I suppose he felt no need to train her. I will be training mine, and she will not be an outside dog.

The food he told me they are eating is Complete Mother and Puppy food... I've never heard of it.

Cherry Blossom

I agree with all of Sweeper's post apart from the fact that the sire should be available on site to view as in most cases it's highly unlikely that that the beeder will own 2 dogs that compliment each other enough to breed them together.

I am the sort of person that gets obsessive about things :rolleyes: If I take a fancy to a breed I research it to death even if I have no intention of getting one even within the next decade . This includes trawling breed specific forums, looking into the different characteristics of different strains of the breed, and delving into it's history and early roots. I would hope that anyone thinking about breeding a dog would be as obsessed with it as I would be. If you look at any of the UK breeds (or non UK breeds with 'UK strains') the early advocates were generally the elite and powerful with lots of time on their hands and really quite potty . It's usual to have names mentioned in most breed specific books that start with 'lord', 'lady', 'the earl of . . ' and so on. The reason for this is because this was generally the type of person that had the time, efffort and money to put in. I'm quite sure plenty of 'normal' people also bred dogs but these are not the dog's that went down in history books .

These days it is much easier for the average person to partake and produce dogs to these high standards and there really is no excuse for not putting in the same effort, time and money. It is also important that those who are doing so gain the support of the average dog owner for improving the breed for future generations. There are two fundamental things at play here, the dogs health and its behaviour and development, these are the two things really that you are paying for when you buy a pedigree dog, to pay over the odds and not get one of these things (or both!!) you are plain and simply being taken for a fool and ripped off. I would even go so far as to say you would be better taking another rescue dog. Sorry if this post seems a little abrupt but this is my opinion and it certainly appears you have not researched the breed to same depths I would.

andreac

To be honest, this breeder sounds very dodgy to me. A dog that isnt house trained?? Sounds like she is just left outside and is probably just used as a breeding bitch.

Does he have the hip/elbow certs, as they are the health certs we are talking about. Not the cert from the vet that has the vaccination records on it as anyone can get those. There are certain breeds like Huskies that suffer from hip problems and must be tested before breeding and if they arent you should walk away.

You seem very naive to the type of breeders that are out there and to be honest, this breeder doesnt sound good at all.
Never heard of complete mother and puppy food. What brand is it? These are all the things you need to consider before buying a pup and not checking after you have bought the pup.

Not Just Mammy

Well guys, I thank you for your advice and opinions and even your portents of doom lol
But to be honest, this thread is getting a little heated for me, since I simply asked for advice on papers, not to be accused of being a fool.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation right about now, I wish you all the best in the future.

Thanks again.

Cherry Blossom

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Oh no he has the health certs, I just didn't think to ask for them on the day I was there, but I'll be seeing them before I take the pup away. And he's agreed to a 48 hour window where I can get my pup seen to by my own vet, and if there are any problems, I'll be bringing her back.

The health certs you need are not for tests done on the puppy, they are for x-rays done on the parents to determine hip and elbow scores and eye tests done on the parents to prove they are free from any genetic disorders that would be passed on to the pups and would not be apparant until later in life. A vet can't tell very much about a young pup other than basically that it is alive, free from parasites etc.

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

When I said the mother wasn't trained I meant, at all. She's not housetrained or anything, which struck me as shocking, but then again if she's an outside dog... I suppose he felt no need to train her. I will be training mine, and she will not be an outside dog.

If this is the case how could he possibly have any idea if the dog was suitable to breed from?

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

The food he told me they are eating is Complete Mother and Puppy food... I've never heard of it.

It is the exact brand name you need, I really don't see what research you have done at all, these are the absolute basics you are asking about.

andreac

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Well guys, I thank you for your advice and opinions and even your portents of doom lol
But to be honest, this thread is getting a little heated for me, since I simply asked for advice on papers, not to be accused of being a fool.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation right about now, I wish you all the best in the future.

Thanks again.

You asked about paperwork and we answered you and informed you exactly what paperwork you should be receiving with your pup, but you obviously wont be getting it from this breeder as he doesnt have it, yet you are still willing to go ahead and get this pup.

He doesnt have health certs as you havent asked about them, hip/elbow scoring etc.
The vaccination certs are not health certs.

Whispered

OP's attitude is typical of the ones which keep this industry going.

Not really being sure of the facts at first, not really caring for the facts when told. Buying these pups make you a part of the problem.

Vel

You're spot on Whispered. So disappointing to read this thread and see such good advice being ignored.

Jelly2

Ditto to the last poster. But, if it's any consolation, I have learned an awful lot, and thanks to everyone for that. We don't have pedigrees, just beloved mutts, but it's still useful to be informed. The information might come in useful sometime.:)

Not Just Mammy

Whispered wrote: »

OP's attitude is typical of the ones which keep this industry going.

And you've based this opinion on my not having seen the hip score or other medical certs yet? I will be seeing them before I take the pup. And let me just ask, because of your 'guess' at how the pups were bred, you're basically stating that they shouldn't be bought? Perhaps it would suit you all better if the litter was put down. Shocking, to think that you are all so snobbish. I feel sorry for you all that you're too wrapped up in the so called 'guarantee' of health that you forget these are living creatures.

Maybe those who have cancer running in the family shouldn't have children, eh? Or those who've had asthma as a child/adult should refrain from having any of their own, also.

Whispered wrote: »

Not really being sure of the facts at first, not really caring for the facts when told. Buying these pups make you a part of the problem.

As I've said before -although I fear I'm just blowing hot air at this rate since none of you have seemed to 'really care' to read what I've said -I have researched the breed, I am well aware of the potential problems, health-wise and temperament-wise, I was just not aware of the paperwork that would come with the pup. I would have gotten my information elsewhere if I'd known what total bashing would go on here. You should all be ashamed, when a person comes for a bit of advice and instead gets a lot of insults shoved at them.

Shame on you all.

You've all heard the phrase 'buyer beware', but the only thing that applies here, is, 'posters beware'.

I once again thank those who have provided me with the information I actually requested. I will think twice about asking anything on this forum again. Perhaps it would have suited you all better if I'd stayed ignorant.

Good luck all, and may you not tear the next poster to shreds unawares.

andreac

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

And you've based this opinion on my not having seen the hip score or other medical certs yet? I will be seeing them before I take the pup. And let me just ask, because of your 'guess' at how the pups were bred, you're basically stating that they shouldn't be bought? Perhaps it would suit you all better if the litter was put down. Shocking, to think that you are all so snobbish. I feel sorry for you all that you're too wrapped up in the so called 'guarantee' of health that you forget these are living creatures.

Maybe those who have cancer running in the family shouldn't have children, eh? Or those who've had asthma as a child/adult should refrain from having any of their own, also.



As I've said before -although I fear I'm just blowing hot air at this rate since none of you have seemed to 'really care' to read what I've said -I have researched the breed, I am well aware of the potential problems, health-wise and temperament-wise, I was just not aware of the paperwork that would come with the pup. I would have gotten my information elsewhere if I'd known what total bashing would go on here. You should all be ashamed, when a person comes for a bit of advice and instead gets a lot of insults shoved at them.

Shame on you all.

You've all heard the phrase 'buyer beware', but the only thing that applies here, is, 'posters beware'.

I once again thank those who have provided me with the information I actually requested. I will think twice about asking anything on this forum again. Perhaps it would have suited you all better if I'd stayed ignorant.

Good luck all, and may you not tear the next poster to shreds unawares.

Shame on us?? seriously?

We are giving advice on what you should be looking out for with a potential puppy and how to avoid puppy farmers and you are telling us we are snobbish??
Most of us here work in conjunction with rescues, pounds, rehoming dogs etc and see time and time again, people buying pups that are from puppy farmers that end up in the vets with serious health problems from bad breeding that could have been avoided if people did their research before they buy a pup, not after.
We are here to try and educate people on what to look out for and try and spot these so called breeders so you dont buy off them and hand over hundreds of euro for a badly bred dog that inherits problems from the parents as they havent been health tested.

No, we never said anything about putting down the litter, but, its all about supply and demand. If there wasnt a demand for these pups from these puppy farmers, then they simply wouldnt be breeding, end of!! That is why its imperative to do your homework *before buying a pup, not after, its far too late then as you have given these people your money and they do not give a damn if your pup gets sick after you purchase it.

If you think its snobbish to try and educate people on buying healthy pups that arent bred just for money by horrible puppy farmers then you are the one with the problem, not us.

Whispered

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

And let me just ask, because of your 'guess' at how the pups were bred, you're basically stating that they shouldn't be bought? Perhaps it would suit you all better if the litter was put down.

No I think they shouldn't be bought and perhaps such breeders would not be so encouraged to treat their dogs as puppy making machines. It is a very very common misconception that by buying these pups you're somehow saving them. Unfortunately all that will happen is another will be forced to take their place.

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Shocking, to think that you are all so snobbish. I feel sorry for you all that you're too wrapped up in the so called 'guarantee' of health that you forget these are living creatures.

Not the guarantee of health which would put me off buying from some breeders, for me anyway, more the thought of supporting such a business. They are living creatures, as such the concern should be for their quality of life. You have been shown many indications by people more in the know than me as to why this breeder does not appear to be a good one. Your response "I simply asked for advice on papers". This really should not be a priority when buying a pup. Reserching the breeder and how good breeders operate should be, the mothers welfare should be. Papers should only come into it when you're happy with the breeder.

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Maybe those who have cancer running in the family shouldn't have children, eh? Or those who've had asthma as a child/adult should refrain from having any of their own, also.

what a disgusting thing to insinuate. There is a huge difference and you must know that?

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

As I've said before -although I fear I'm just blowing hot air at this rate since none of you have seemed to 'really care' to read what I've said

People are reading and responding to you op. It is you who who is basicially saying in your posts that you don't really care what is being said.

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

You should all be ashamed, when a person comes for a bit of advice and instead gets a lot of insults shoved at them.

I don't think you've been insulted at all, I think posters took the time to read and respond to you, offering advice on what they think, to be told that you don't care what they say, you're just interested in finding out about papers, as opposed to finding out about the best way to choose a breeder. If you feel you've been personally attacked, I'd recommend reporting the offending posts and the mods will deal with it.

Best of luck with your pup, I am glad to see you say that if you do buy in future, you will be more careful in how you choose your breeder.

ISDW

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

And you've based this opinion on my not having seen the hip score or other medical certs yet? I will be seeing them before I take the pup. And let me just ask, because of your 'guess' at how the pups were bred, you're basically stating that they shouldn't be bought? Perhaps it would suit you all better if the litter was put down. Shocking, to think that you are all so snobbish. I feel sorry for you all that you're too wrapped up in the so called 'guarantee' of health that you forget these are living creatures.

Maybe those who have cancer running in the family shouldn't have children, eh? Or those who've had asthma as a child/adult should refrain from having any of their own, also.

As I've said before -although I fear I'm just blowing hot air at this rate since none of you have seemed to 'really care' to read what I've said -I have researched the breed, I am well aware of the potential problems, health-wise and temperament-wise, I was just not aware of the paperwork that would come with the pup. I would have gotten my information elsewhere if I'd known what total bashing would go on here. You should all be ashamed, when a person comes for a bit of advice and instead gets a lot of insults shoved at them.

Shame on you all.

You've all heard the phrase 'buyer beware', but the only thing that applies here, is, 'posters beware'.

I once again thank those who have provided me with the information I actually requested. I will think twice about asking anything on this forum again. Perhaps it would have suited you all better if I'd stayed ignorant.

Good luck all, and may you not tear the next poster to shreds unawares.

Snobbish? You aren't reading what people are posting. Is not about being a snob, its about the health and well being of the dog. While people buy from puppy farmers, they will continue to produce pups.

You don't seem willing to listen, but please, just think about this for a minute. This breeder has a bitch living in a barn, that isn't house trained, which means that she doesn't go into the family home - EVER. You and others like you are going to pay this breeder to take these puppies. Which means that they have made a profit and so will breed this bitch again and again and again. So her life is to be spent living in a barn churning out litter after litter, with the only human interaction being with the breeder feeding her, and when he brings a male dog to mate with her - thats it, thats what her life is. However, if he couldn't sell this litter, then maybe he wouldn't breed from her again, and she would end up in rescue - possible the husky rescue that I run - and she would be rehomed to a loving family home. Although she may not end up in rescue, he may just take her out the back and put a bullet into her, or dump her in a pound, which is what will happen to her when she's too old for breeding anyway.

Now please have a think about how we are snobs when it is this life for a dog that we are trying to prevent.

This is Skye, a breeding bitch that was dumped when she couldn't be used for breeding anymore. Her back had a huge dip in it from the amount of puppies she'd had.



She is now living in a fantastic home, where she is warm, well fed and loved and goes out for walks every day. The same puppy farmer that had her also dumped 2 malamutes when they had a medical condition that made them useless for breeding that came through my doors. He lives in a house on an estate, no way would anybody think that he is a puppy farmer.

If I was a snob, then i wouldn't have the dogs - both pedigree and crossbreeds living in my house that I have. At one point last year I had 29 dogs here, siberian huskies, alaskan malamutes or crosses of those breeds. Why? Because of irresponsible breeding. I have taken in mostly unregistered dogs, I don't only take pedigree, registered huskies so no, I am most definitely not a snob. What I am, is one of those people who have to deal with the fall out from the irresponsible breeding going on. There is a line of Alaskan Malamutes in Ireland that has a dog in their ancestry that is passing epilepsy on. Do you know how heartbroken the owners are that have had to have their dogs put to sleep? Or the ones that have had to surrender the dog because of the aggression that has come out of that line? THAT is why we say dogs should be health tested and you should only buy from responsible breeders, not because we think you should only have the prettiest dog available. Its not about asthetics, its about the health of the dog. I know that you will completely ridicule this, but buying from this breeder, ensures that that poor bitch continues to have a miserable life, and that more puppies will be born and sold to people who will dump them when they get too big and too much trouble.

The paperwork that you should get from the breeder is the IKC registration, with the parent's hip score and eye tests on it, but you should have already seen those results. Why on earth would the breeder not have that? It costs a good bit of money to do those tests, so anybody that gets them done is proud to show prospective puppy owners the results.

Jelly2

What an absolutely fantastic post - heartfelt, measured, convincing, and most of all, extremely polite. OP, PLEASE LISTEN.

The Sweeper

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

And you've based this opinion on my not having seen the hip score or other medical certs yet? I will be seeing them before I take the pup. And let me just ask, because of your 'guess' at how the pups were bred, you're basically stating that they shouldn't be bought? Perhaps it would suit you all better if the litter was put down. Shocking, to think that you are all so snobbish. I feel sorry for you all that you're too wrapped up in the so called 'guarantee' of health that you forget these are living creatures.

If you were to call the breeder and say "I don't want the pup any more, I've been researching ethical breeding, and I'm not confident that you have the best interests of the pup and the mother at heart" he'll probably tell you to stick it up your jersey. No fun for you, but you could go on the waiting list for a pup from a reputable breeder - and you can get reputable breeder details on this very forum and I'm sure ISDW would help you find a dog.

If everybody who was lined up for his pups did the same thing, he'd be furious.

And he'd be stuck with the bitch and the ever-growing pups. They're harder and harder to sell as they age - 12 weeks, 16 weeks, next thing he's got the bitch and say four or five pups aged 18 weeks. Nobody's buying. He's up the walls. He isn't feed them properly. They're getting skinny. They're starting to howl and bark day and night and driving him nuts.

So he surrenders the lot of them - the bitch and the pups, to the pound, and swears off dog breeding for a while.

The bitch and the pups are scared in the pound, but they're huskies, so they're desirable dogs. There's a very high chance they'll be picked up by rescue. Fostered. Socialised. Neutered. Rehomed to homes that care. Never used for high-volume breeding programmes again. Living out their days warm and fed and happy in the family home.

The fella that owned them originally will probably breed again, but maybe not so quickly, maybe not so many dogs, maybe in better conditions and maybe - just maybe - he'll figure it's too much trouble and there are easier ways to make money.

Not Just Mammy

Just thought I would pop along and let you know that I collected my puppy today and I'm thrilled with her.
Turns out her bloodline is impeccable. She's from Mandy Hynes' stock.
I'm looking forward to many years of fun with my new best friend.

EGAR

Oh dear.... you REALLY did not do your home work, did you???

boomerang

May all go well for you, OP and she turns out a well-adjusted, friendly and sociable dog with no health problems.

ISDW

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Just thought I would pop along and let you know that I collected my puppy today and I'm thrilled with her.
Turns out her bloodline is impeccable. She's from Mandy Hynes' stock.
I'm looking forward to many years of fun with my new best friend.

Its not about bloodline, its about hereditary testing, as you are so happy with the pup, what are the hip and eye scores of the parents?

Tucking Fypo

:eek: Probably one of the most immature posts I have read in this section. OP you really haven't done your research. I feel for that dog you have just purchased and as much as I hate to say this; I can see what the future holds for him/her. 'Husky for Sale - 1 year old, genuine reason for sale, too boisterous for my family' :rolleyes:

The Sweeper

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Just thought I would pop along and let you know that I collected my puppy today and I'm thrilled with her.
Turns out her bloodline is impeccable. She's from Mandy Hynes' stock.
I'm looking forward to many years of fun with my new best friend.

And Cavalier King Charles Spaniels are from King Charles' stock.

Cherry Blossom

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Just thought I would pop along and let you know that I collected my puppy today and I'm thrilled with her.
Turns out her bloodline is impeccable. She's from Mandy Hynes' stock.
I'm looking forward to many years of fun with my new best friend.

Well good luck with that because you'll definately need it

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/dogs/1717239

Not Just Mammy

Hip scores for Dam, right hip joint 3, left hip joint 3.
Hip scores for Sire, total was 7.

Mandy Hynes is the owner and operator of Clover Kennels, and was instrumental in the promotion of sled dog sports in Ireland, and as a result there are now organised racing events and other sled dog activities taking place regularly all through Ireland.

She also runs a rescue/rehoming centre:). And for the poster who said I'd be giving her up in a year? Cop on to yourself. I wouldn't buy a dog KNOWING how energetic the breed are, without plans for her proper training and exercise. :rolleyes:

I thought you'd all be happy to know the pup was healthy as could be, and came from a line of dogs well fit to breed, as you all seemed so worried. And I thought perhaps if I let you all know how it went and that I did listen to you and seen for myself the proper health certs etc. before I brought her home, that this could, after all, turn out to be a place I could ask for advice, as I'm sure to need some at some stage. But alas...:(

LOL @ MYSELF :pac:
You're still a bunch of sour-faced ould trouts, looking for any reason to turn rabid, and decend like a pack of wolves. Like my puns? Thought you'd appreciate them.

Of course, there were one or two of you who genuinely seemed nice, so I thank you for your time and your advice, as always.

And now, since I'm obviously not welcome in the Animals and Pet Issues CLIQUE, I'll kindly show myself the exit.:rolleyes:

koneko

You seem to be more concerned with getting randomly offended and expecting only answers you already wanted. People here have animal welfare at heart, ISDW spends her time and money rescuing these dogs after people abandon them, and you're just dismissing the very sensible information people are trying to give you. Then to resort to insulting people is just really childish.

Sibe puppies should never be scared or timid, it may take a lot of socialisation to make sure your pup is friendly and outgoing. I hope everything works out great though, they're a wonderful breed but take a lot of work.

Tucking Fypo

I'm sure Mandy Hynes will be thrilled to hear her name dragged through this by the likes of you. I also doubt she would home to the likes of you.;)

Promise us one thing. Keep ISDW's profile on your bookmarks and contact her when (and they will) things go wrong. You're in this for the total wrong reasons lady.:mad:

EGAR

She runs no more a rescue than I am Irish. Just because someone advertises *rescue* dogs in the Buy and Sell and calls herself a *registered rescue* (load of bollox as there is no such thing)? She also used to breed Staffies until there was no more money in it. Ah yes...


There is a sucker born every minute.

DON'T ask for advice if you don't like the answers you are getting, the advice given was sound and Karen (ISDW) has forgotten more about Sleddogs than other people will ever know.

ISDW

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Hip scores for Dam, right hip joint 3, left hip joint 3.
Hip scores for Sire, total was 7.

Mandy Hynes is the owner and operator of Clover Kennels, and was instrumental in the promotion of sled dog sports in Ireland, and as a result there are now organised racing events and other sled dog activities taking place regularly all through Ireland.

She also runs a rescue/rehoming centre:). And for the poster who said I'd be giving her up in a year? Cop on to yourself. I wouldn't buy a dog KNOWING how energetic the breed are, without plans for her proper training and exercise. :rolleyes:

I thought you'd all be happy to know the pup was healthy as could be, and came from a line of dogs well fit to breed, as you all seemed so worried. And I thought perhaps if I let you all know how it went and that I did listen to you and seen for myself the proper health certs etc. before I brought her home, that this could, after all, turn out to be a place I could ask for advice, as I'm sure to need some at some stage. But alas...:(

LOL @ MYSELF :pac:
You're still a bunch of sour-faced ould trouts, looking for any reason to turn rabid, and decend like a pack of wolves. Like my puns? Thought you'd appreciate them.

Of course, there were one or two of you who genuinely seemed nice, so I thank you for your time and your advice, as always.

And now, since I'm obviously not welcome in the Animals and Pet Issues CLIQUE, I'll kindly show myself the exit.:rolleyes:

Thats excellent that the parents were hipscored, thats all we asked, and those are good scores. Do you know if the eyes were done?

I won't comment on the person you have mentioned, as I don't want to receive another solicitors letter. However, I will say that I am a member of a different sled dog club, and we hold meets every month, and in my very humble opinion have done far more to promote sled dog sports in this country than any other club, very much without the help of the aforementioned person. I think that its just a shame that people can't work together and we would all get much further, as dog owners we all know the prejudices that exist here against dogs. This of course is my own personal opinion and I am not speaking for the club that I am a member of:D There are people that have been working their sled dogs in Ireland for a very long time, way before there was an organised club, including people who have taken part in world championships, it is they that should be held up as the people instrumental in getting sled dog sports up and running in Ireland, as they have given a lot of advice and help to me and others, including Ms Hynes.

lrushe

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

Hip scores for Dam, right hip joint 3, left hip joint 3.
Hip scores for Sire, total was 7.

That's great that their hips have been done and they are good scores, that's all people were enquring about since page 1.
Enjoy your need additon.

The Sweeper

Not Just Mammy wrote: »

I thought you'd all be happy to know the pup was healthy as could be, and came from a line of dogs well fit to breed, as you all seemed so worried. And I thought perhaps if I let you all know how it went and that I did listen to you and seen for myself the proper health certs etc. before I brought her home, that this could, after all, turn out to be a place I could ask for advice, as I'm sure to need some at some stage. But alas...:(

Thankfully the sire and dam were fit to breed, but that doesn't address whether the breeder, with his skinny, unsocialised dog in a shed under a heat lamp with her puppies, is fit to breed...

Actually that brings up the lines - it makes sense if he's breeding heavily working strain dogs who aren't intended to be family pets, that he'd have the bitch out in a shed and she not toilet trained or ever allowed in the house.

Fifty quid says that puppy eats your couch.
And then howls about it.

mosi

I hope that everything works out well for the OP's new puppy.

I don't know anything about Mandy Hynes so I cannot comment on whether she is good, bad or indifferent. However, a quick google search revealed that at least one of the dogs that she bred and sold subsequently had its papers forged and used on another dog. She apparently found out about this when some hapless buyer contacted her
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-probe-forgery-scam-in-pedigree-dog-industry-1749794.html

Angelmangle

I hope everything goes well for you and your "little ball of fluff", hopefully she will grow up free of any congenital problems.

But I am sure if she does develop any health problems you as a responsible owner will be in the position to pay the hundreds if not thousands of euro vets fees that you will most likely incurred to have her treated, never mind the attendant heartache that comes with having an ill animal and having to explain why she is ill to your children.

That is yet another reason not to buy from a puppy farmer, its moronic in the extreme to liken somebody getting cancer and breeding from dogs with breed specific hereditary conditions - I really could not believe it when I read that!

But hopefully as you say all will be well. I assum you did your research in other ways - went to shows, spoke to the IKC Breed Society Secretary to see who they recommended as reputable breeders? If that is the case then you should be free to enjoy your little ball of fluff same in the knowledge that you are not adding to the continuing problem of puppy farmers and all the attendant problems that come with purchasing a semingly healthy puppy of them. Caveat emptor