Kaval Released from WWE

parker kent

Gerard.C wrote: »

He could wait till they have something for him? Im sure Vince and co would be impressed with him if he stuck with it and showed loyalty. Instead he showed his true colours, and back to his $500 bookings to wrestle in gyms instead of on national tv with him as a result. Lose or not its still better to be a consistant wrestler on smackdown. Shur wasnt he wrestling for the IC title there a few weeks ago on PPV?

Saying he knew his career wasnt going anywhere in wwe after a few weeks, it would be one thing if he was there with years like Matt Hardy or something. Who is Low Ki to suggest he knows better that WWE like

History suggests they would have nothing for him. Paul London stuck around for years and got nowhere. So have countless others. Sadly there are very few spaces in the WWE for somebody with the size and style of Low Ki. I doubt he would have lasted another 12 months before getting the bullet.

flahavaj

dlofnep wrote: »

Maybe he didn't want to burn bridges?

He's happily burned his bridges in companies all over the world in the past to be fair. Either way, you're speculating.

It is your opinion that he should have. That is not the only option for underused wrestlers. But since you're content with any wrestler being demoted to jobber, then idealistically - you'd have no problem with Danielson jobbing for the next 12 months, right?

I'd prefer to see him boked well, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him jobbed out. Its a risk you take when you sign for WWE as Danielson, and more pertinently, Kaval should have known from the outset, especially when they're cruiserweights. I certainly wouldn't go crying on the internet about it, not when its something that he would have known was very likely to happen to when he signed up for WWE in the first place. And as you used the example, I'd be willing to bet that if Danielson was misused like that he'd have enough about him to get his head down, work hard and wait for an opportunity to come along. Because unlike Low Ki, he's not a prima donna that ups and leaves at the first sign of things not going his way.

Wrestling for 12 years, working on an international level, and winning NXT is enough for him to at least be booked to win a few matches.

WWE couldn't give a rat's ass about a wrestler's international history prior to WWE. Look at Ultimo Dragon, he had a career that eclipses anything low Ki has ever or ever will hope to achieve, but that didn't stop WWE booking him like a tool. Ditto Juventud Guerrera, Psicosis and dozens of other guys with far bigger reputations as Kaval. They all stuck around a bit longer than Kaval did too. As for winning NXT, barely any of WWE's core audience watched the show, it means nothing in the greater scheme of things.

He was one of the best wrestlers in the entire company. Nobody is saying to give him a world title. Just that he didn't deserve to be demoted to jobber, straight after the public voted for him to win NXT.

Again sadly, technical excellence is worth little in WWE-land. And again, Low Ki would have known this when he signed up for them.

The hypocrisy of this post. If it's a discussion forum, then you would have allowed me to voice my opinion without accusing me of looking for reasons to bitch about the WWE (Despite the fact that I don't exactly have a record of criticising them).

Voice your opinion away horse, but you do come across only too happy to moan about WWE, when in this case an egotistical and troublesome westler with an over-inflated sense of his importance in the wrestling world is clearly the real culprit.

Cactus Colm

I don't think anybody will really miss him from WWE .... a talented wrestler he might be, but there is plenty of underused talent on the WWE roster I'd prefer to see get a push over low ki. Certainly I'd love to see WWE do something decent with the likes of Zach Ryder or Yoshi tatsu

Diabhal Beag

To me he was always just a guy anyways. Just because he had some relevance in ROH and TNA people think he's better than the other new guys.

This is the future for Chris Hero if he ever joined WWE. He's no Punk or Bryan. Just a Scotty Goldman.

Gerard.C

parker kent wrote: »

History suggests they would have nothing for him. Paul London stuck around for years and got nowhere. So have countless others. Sadly there are very few spaces in the WWE for somebody with the size and style of Low Ki. I doubt he would have lasted another 12 months before getting the bullet.

Benoit, Malenko, Jericho, Guerrero, et al all stuck around and did something too. Paul London loves the herb too much mon, that was his downfall.

parker kent

Gerard.C wrote: »

Benoit, Malenko, Jericho, Guerrero, et al all stuck around and did something too. Paul London loves the herb too much mon, that was his downfall.

Bit of a difference in Benoit, Jericho and Guerrero though. Low Ki will never get the same push as they would due to his stature and the fact that all 4 of them had national exposure already in WCW. It is a lot different coming from the indies or TNA in the modern era than jumping ship from WCW in the old days. Malenko was pretty idiotically booked by WWE as well.

Low Ki relies on a type of wrestling match that will never be booked in the WWE. Same as London, Kendrick etc. London is a looper, but he there were plenty of other issues blocking his path. The same ones that stop Low Ki making the leap into stardom. He is a totally different kettle of fish to Punk or Danielson.

Cactus Colm

parker kent wrote: »

Bit of a difference in Benoit, Jericho and Guerrero though. Low Ki will never get the same push as they would due to his stature and the fact that all 4 of them had national exposure already in WCW. It is a lot different coming from the indies or TNA in the modern era than jumping ship from WCW in the old days. Malenko was pretty idiotically booked by WWE as well.

Low Ki relies on a type of wrestling match that will never be booked in the WWE. Same as London, Kendrick etc. London is a looper, but he there were plenty of other issues blocking his path. The same ones that stop Low Ki making the leap into stardom. He is a totally different kettle of fish to Punk or Danielson.

In fairness though, Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, et al all worked their way up the card on WCW before making the jump over to WWE. Batista and Edge had to work their way up the card in WWE. Just because WWE have pushed a number of young wrestlers lately doesn't mean everyone can or should get the same pushes. Especially someone like Low Ki who has a bit of a reputation of having a bad attitude.

parker kent

Cactus Colm wrote: »

In fairness though, Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, et al all worked their way up the card on WCW before making the jump over to WWE. Batista and Edge had to work their way up the card in WWE. Just because WWE have pushed a number of young wrestlers lately doesn't mean everyone can or should get the same pushes. Especially someone like Low Ki who has a bit of a reputation of having a bad attitude.

I know all that and that is why I am saying he was not likely not have made it. I never said he should or would be pushed. I am making the opposite point.

I am making pretty much the same point as you that Low Ki is very different to the examples of Benoit etc that were given to me as examples that he could have been pushed if he had stayed.

the flananator

I would have to agree with Gerard and Flahavaj on this. Of course jobbing him out to Chavo makes no sense in terms of building new stars or whatever, but then on the other side of things Chavo is a WWE lifer who has shown massive, almost cult-like commitment to WWE in the past. Why should Chavo have to lie down to a rookie with an alleged attitude problem like Kaval? Vince would choose one Chavo over 10 Kavals any day of the week, simply because he knows he can count on guys like Chavo.

WWE like to test its wrestler's commitment to the cause before they give them massive pushes. The last thing they want to do is create a Lesnar-type situation where they build a huge star only for them to go and make millions for a direct rival (UFC). They want to make young wrestlers humble first, make them really appreciate their pushes. Kaval failed this test.

JohnMc1

Gerard.C wrote: »

He could wait till they have something for him? Im sure Vince and co would be impressed with him if he stuck with it and showed loyalty. Instead he showed his true colours, and back to his $500 bookings to wrestle in gyms instead of on national tv with him as a result. Lose or not its still better to be a consistant wrestler on smackdown. Shur wasnt he wrestling for the IC title there a few weeks ago on PPV?

Don't forget now that he's a former WWE talent TNA will probably scoop him up in 90 days.

the flananator

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Don't forget now that he's a former WWE talent TNA will probably scoop him up in 90 days.

Its possible, but I think I read somewhere that he left there on bad terms too.

JohnMc1

the flananator wrote: »

Its possible, but I think I read somewhere that he left there on bad terms too.

Thanks. I don't really follow the backstage stuff too much. Sadly TNA built themselves up as the league that will take and push anybody that got released from WWE anymore. So I wouldn't be surprised if they still try to sign him.

Fozzy

The Observer story on this says that after one of his losses recently he went and asked if he has heat on him and he was told no. So he asked if there were any plans for him and they said no, so he asked for his release

There was also the usual story about how guys who have achieved something outside of WWE have it held against them, as well as his size working against him

jaykhunter

the flananator wrote: »

Its possible, but I think I read somewhere that he left there on bad terms too.

Yes, he was (mis-)used by TNA pretty badly, despite showing fantastic in-ring skill. He never really had a platform to showcase his talent but we (me and my friends) could tell how awesome he is -- he's got the stiff workrate of Kurt Angle but a distinctly Japanese feel. TNA had no idea what to do with him (as well as Daniels, amongst others) so the XXX team revival was a huge waste of time, which saw everyone out of a job by the end of it.

TNA won't pick him up (i'd be incredibly surprised if they did) as Bischoff and hogan don't care for small talented wrestlers....even though they make their product for the IWC...:rolleyes:

They'd sooner pick up Teddy DiBiase or Drew Mac instead.

thebostoncrab

Kaval has noone to blame but himself.

What on Earth did he expect, to be in the main event instantly? There is no way in hell he would find himself that high in the pecking order that quickly.

Regardless of how well you have done before your time in WWE, you are made pay your dues before you hit the big time. Just because Kaval has done brilliantly everywhere else doesn't mean he should be top of the card in WWE; it never works like that. The main difference is about 90% of the audience has no clue of the wrestling world outside of WWE, and wrestlers who have made such a strong standing on the indie scene or even in TNA are nobodies to them.

If Kaval was released after being told there was nothing for him and it was left as that, then I'd be outraged. But since they told him, like they have done for a countless amount of wrestlers in the past, that they had nothing for him and he then walked away, he just prooved to the world what alot of fans have been saying about him for a long long time: He is a mark for himself and expects everything to be handed to him instantly. Such a shame because he is an amazing jnr. heavyweight to watch wrestle.

JohnMc1

thebostoncrab wrote: »

Kaval has noone to blame but himself.

What on Earth did he expect, to be in the main event instantly? There is no way in hell he would find himself that high in the pecking order that quickly.

Regardless of how well you have done before your time in WWE, you are made pay your dues before you hit the big time. Just because Kaval has done brilliantly everywhere else doesn't mean he should be top of the card in WWE; it never works like that. The main difference is about 90% of the audience has no clue of the wrestling world outside of WWE, and wrestlers who have made such a strong standing on the indie scene or even in TNA are nobodies to them.

If Kaval was released after being told there was nothing for him and it was left as that, then I'd be outraged. But since they told him, like they have done for a countless amount of wrestlers in the past, that they had nothing for him and he then walked away, he just prooved to the world what alot of fans have been saying about him for a long long time: He is a mark for himself and expects everything to be handed to him instantly. Such a shame because he is an amazing jnr. heavyweight to watch wrestle.

Are you serious? How many times over the years have we seen people get released because "Creative had no plans for them" ? Countless times.

Why should he or anybody stay and be nothing but an over glorified jobber? He had every right to ask for a release. Better to be a mark for yourself than to be a mark for a company that doesn't give a damn about you. If more wrestlers did that then maybe Vince will get the message and sack his "creative" team instead of sacking wrestlers.

JP Liz V1

They should have paired him with Bourne or Yoshi could have been a great tag team :rolleyes:

thebostoncrab

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Are you serious? How many times over the years have we seen people get released because "Creative had no plans for them" ? Countless times.

Why should he or anybody stay and be nothing but an over glorified jobber? He had every right to ask for a release. Better to be a mark for yourself than to be a mark for a company that doesn't give a damn about you. If more wrestlers did that then maybe Vince will get the message and sack his "creative" team instead of sacking wrestlers.

I'm deadly serious. There have been many wrestlers who in the past have been told creative had nothing for them at that time, and they stuck it out. HHH was made to job for awhile in the 90s let's not forget. And RVD spent about two years in the middle of years going nowhere. It happens all the time, and if a wrestler either sticks it out or does what Mick Foley and Chris Jericho did (You know, tell Vince and creative what ideas they had themselves) then they will find themselves somewhere on the roster.

And Ki being a mark for himself has landed himself in hot water everywhere he has gone. I hoped some time in the WWE would change this but it appears not. He will never make it to the top of the card in a major company unless he learns that good things comes to those who wait.

JohnMc1

thebostoncrab wrote: »

I'm deadly serious. There have been many wrestlers who in the past have been told creative had nothing for them at that time, and they stuck it out. HHH was made to job for awhile in the 90s let's not forget. And RVD spent about two years in the middle of years going nowhere. It happens all the time, and if a wrestler either sticks it out or does what Mick Foley and Chris Jericho did (You know, tell Vince and creative what ideas they had themselves) then they will find themselves somewhere on the roster.

And Ki being a mark for himself has landed himself in hot water everywhere he has gone. I hoped some time in the WWE would change this but it appears not. He will never make it to the top of the card in a major company unless he learns that good things comes to those who wait.

When you win one of their contests [NXT] and are constantly jobbed then the writing is on the wall. Telling him they have no plans for him despite having no heat with the office. Kaval did the right thing he saw the writing on the wall and asked to leave. Why stick around and be jobbed out and be completely de-valued once he is released? Its about time wrestlers stopped being marks for the business and WWE and drop the whole "I don't care I'm in the WWE" routine. Unless their plan is to be bitter idiots releasing "shoot videos" on Youtube cursing out Vince and Steph,etc and how much they can't wait to piss on their graves.

Machismo Fan

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Telling him they have no plans for him despite having no heat with the office.

And during a period where depth on Smackdown is non-existent and WWE are losing everybody capable of providing that memorable WrestleMania they need every year.

jaykhunter

thebostoncrab wrote: »

I'm deadly serious. There have been many wrestlers who in the past have been told creative had nothing for them at that time, and they stuck it out. HHH was made to job for awhile in the 90s let's not forget. And RVD spent about two years in the middle of years going nowhere. It happens all the time, and if a wrestler either sticks it out or does what Mick Foley and Chris Jericho did (You know, tell Vince and creative what ideas they had themselves) then they will find themselves somewhere on the roster.

And Ki being a mark for himself has landed himself in hot water everywhere he has gone. I hoped some time in the WWE would change this but it appears not. He will never make it to the top of the card in a major company unless he learns that good things comes to those who wait.

I'm with you, Crabman. With regards to WWE, Ki is a nobody, and if he wanted to (have a chance to) succeed in WWE, he should've stuck it out, and not given up after a few months. WWE do not care what 2,000 ROH fans think (myself included). Yes, Creative should be blamed for not knowing what to do with someone like Ki, but to be honest, WWE are the only game in town for him. TNA have overspent and underperformed so I can't see them bringing in anyone that isn't either a indy nobody or a big ex-WWE guy.

Look at the people who have stuck it out and made something of themselves -- Foley retrospectively admitted that he was never 'supposed' to win the WWF title, but worked insanely long and hard to get over. Chris Jericho was immediately sabotaged by Road Dogg, XPac and HHH (I can't vouch for Gunn), who constantly badmouthed him to Vince/anyone who would listen, but he weathered the storm/made terrible angles like working with Chyna work, and became champion anyway. RVD was one of the talents who entered WWE around Triple H's "selfish phase" (2003-2005) yet still got a WWE championship reign out of it. Booker T -- man, look at his awful Wrestlemania matchups/results -- stuck it out, made a lot of cash and finally got a World title run in 2006. CM Punk was buried as soon as Heyman left, he gutted it out on the C-brand, putting in great performances and keeping himself relevant until he got his impromtu chance to shine in 2008.

What I'm getting at is, in general, cream eventually rises to the top. Right now, there's no better time to be a small, talented guy. 5 years ago - no chance. 5 years from now - a new batch of talent will be cemented. Right now is/was the chance to get in on the ground floor, as nobodies like Heath Slater are getting precious TV time.

Yes, Creative don't have a clue sometimes but if Kaval wanted to be someone in WWE, unless you have the look/charisma of a star like Batista, you're gonna endure some rough times. Didn't Rey Mysterio go to bat for him? Bryan is doing really well right now too. Stick it out long enough and you'll get a chance to work with some great higher-profile talent and you'll get noticed.

For a stiff, small guy like Ki, TNA aren't knocking at the door, and Japan isn't doing great, he should've stuck it out in WWE. The best money and exposure is in WWE, and any title run would've helped out his indie bookings/status for the rest of his career rather than what he's got now. (like Gillberg, Eugene are still taking indie dates)

DM_7

My initial thoughts were **** WWE.

But hearing Ki wanted out makes me think he was really daft.

All he had to do was stick it out a few months till after mania. The fact he has something different would eventually shine through. He is someone that could create a buzz at house shows because of what he does, and over time WWE would put more faith in his work.

Its a shame he couldn't stick with it for longer.

Machismo Fan

jaykhunter wrote: »

Look at the people who have stuck it out and made something of themselves -- Foley retrospectively admitted that he was never 'supposed' to win the WWF title, but worked insanely long and hard to get over. Chris Jericho was immediately sabotaged by Road Dogg, XPac and HHH (I can't vouch for Gunn), who constantly badmouthed him to Vince/anyone who would listen, but he weathered the storm/made terrible angles like working with Chyna work, and became champion anyway. RVD was one of the talents who entered WWE around Triple H's "selfish phase" (2003-2005) yet still got a WWE championship reign out of it. Booker T -- man, look at his awful Wrestlemania matchups/results -- stuck it out, made a lot of cash and finally got a World title run in 2006. CM Punk was buried as soon as Heyman left, he gutted it out on the C-brand, putting in great performances and keeping himself relevant until he got his impromtu chance to shine in 2008.

All those people are terrible examples in relation to Kaval. They either came from WCW so they had significantly more exposure, were treated as pretty important when they debuted or have a good size and look. Kaval has none of those and I think he saw the writing on the wall and opted out (which he has every right to do). Plus, he'll have no problem getting bookings for the rest of his career and shouldn't have much problem getting booked in Japan - plus TNA will come knocking eventually.

jaykhunter

No-one's arguing if he has the right to do it. He has the right to throw his birthday presents in the bin. It's just not a smart thing to do :pac:

Machismo Fan

jaykhunter wrote: »

It's just not a smart thing to do :pac:

Well nobody can truly know whether it was a smart idea or not because nobody (besides Vince of course) has any idea whether WWE would ever have gotten behind him - which personally I doubt they ever would've, he has too much going against him than for him.

jaykhunter

I don't know what the rush to be on the Indy Circuit or go to Japan is. That'll always be there for him. TNA have released him twice already, and HogOff won't come knocking.

If he stayed in WWE, three things could've happened :
He eventually gets a push - so he was right to stay.
He keeps a job and doesn't get a push - he stays healthy, picking up the best paychecks of his career (aka Gail Kim'ing it)
He doesn't get a push and gets fired down the line - he stays healthy and has more money and exposure than he did in 2010.

Personally I'd rather have Shelton Benajmin's WWE job and paycheck than his ROH one.

Machismo Fan

jaykhunter wrote: »

I don't know what the rush to be on the Indy Circuit or go to Japan is. That'll always be there for him. TNA have released him twice already, and HogOff won't come knocking.

If he stayed in WWE, three things could've happened :
He eventually gets a push - so he was right to stay.
He keeps a job and doesn't get a push - he stays healthy, picking up the best paychecks of his career (aka Gail Kim'ing it)
He doesn't get a push and gets fired down the line - he stays healthy and has more money and exposure than he did in 2010.

Personally I'd rather have Shelton Benajmin's WWE job and paycheck than his ROH one.

Hogan and Bischoff don't make talent decisions in TNA so I don't see how they're relevant. WWE clearly weren't paying him good enough money to stick just around (and most likely nowhere near what Gail Kim is earning), that was probably a major contributory factor in his decision. Extra exposure wouldn't get him any more bookings than he'll already get because he's still one of the top names on the indies and he will get booked in Japan again - so unless he was going to be pushed in WWE (which again I'd consider highly unlikely no matter how long he stayed around) it wouldn't have been worth his while.

jaykhunter

It's like you only see half or less of my posts. I'll assume that if you don't reply to it then you agree, so. TNA releasing him twice is very relevant. And I guess it was Dixie who pushed to get The Nasty Boys, Orlando Jordan, Val Venis and other Hulkamania Tour talent in TNA then :pac:

I'm sure Silvestri won't earn his WWE starters' (let's say) $80,000 per year in the Indies. I'd bet that WWE exposure would get him more dates -- like American Wrestling Rampage for example -- rather than just his standard indie shows. Like "Former WWE whatever" would have more opportunites than "Former ROH star".

How much do ROH talent make per year? Or better yet, non-ROH (or WWE/TNA) talent make? I'd wager something pretty poor -- or at least less than his WWE contract, with twice the pain. Well, let's hope he gets a steady job in ROH or NJPW, which aren't doing great ATM.

From reports it sounds that Kaval's craft (the quality/work-rate of his in-ring matches) wasn't on-show quick enough for him, which begs the question why he went to WWE in the first place. What was he expecting? Was this small man/relative nobody expecting to not pay any kind of dues?

Sounds like his immediate personal pride in his work was more important than persevering to succeed in the biggest wrestling company in the world.

Machismo Fan

jaykhunter wrote: »

It's like you only see half or less of my posts. I'll assume that if you don't reply to it then you agree, so. TNA releasing him twice is very relevant. And I guess it was Dixie who pushed to get The Nasty Boys, Orlando Jordan, Val Venis and other Hulkamania Tour talent in TNA then :pac:

I'm sure Silvestri won't earn his WWE starters' (let's say) $80,000 per year in the Indies. I'd bet that WWE exposure would get him more dates -- like American Wrestling Rampage for example -- rather than just his standard indie shows. Like "Former WWE whatever" would have more opportunites than "Former ROH star".

From reports it sounds that Kaval's craft (the quality/work-rate of his in-ring matches) wasn't on-show quick enough for him, which begs the question why he went to WWE in the first place. What was he expecting? Was this small man/relative nobody expecting to not pay any kind of dues?

Sounds like his immediate personal pride in his work was more important than persevering to succeed in the biggest wrestling company in the world.

Yeah and look how many of Hogan's 'buddies' stuck around. They have no influence in the running of TNA after the Monday experiment failed - they obviously have creative input (as much as Bischoff will deny it to avoid accountability). Plus, he requested his release from TNA the second time. They don't decide who's hired and fired and to calim they do is just falsely placing blame on them.

A WWE run would've done nothing for him in terms of bookings and it's ridiculous to state that it would - his drawing power would not have been increased. And that's 80,000 a year minus expenses with very little room for advancement. So yes, I'd say his net income on the indies and in Japan would be higher than his WWE base (which I'd say is lower than 80,000 by the way). Plus I'd be shocked if we didn't see him in TNA in the future, maybe not immediately but eventually.

jaykhunter

Fair enough. The point being that HogOff have some kind of influence to get people a shot in the company, somehow I don't think ReAction wouldn't been on the air unless these two were about (again another failed venture). The bigger point being that currently TNA are only hiring cheap nobodies or bigger ex-WWE names. Sure maybe in 5 years TNA Creative might be different, but as it stands --ie the foreseeable future-- Senshi won't be getting a third crack in TNA. Sure maybe in 5 years TNA will be dead.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the #/amount of bookings and Silvestri being able to make more/similar money outside WWE than inside. I don't think they're comparable at all. I can't imagine being on SmackDown is comparable to being John Heidenreich. If you can come up with any solid figures I'd like to hear them.

*of course Kaval's yearly income would be more than Heidenreich. I'm being facetious but you still get my point.