Is it against the law to shoot Starlings?

PAIMEI

A farmer has asked me about getting rid of a flock of Starlings that are eating his feed and generally being a nuisance. I went up to have a look today to see what he was on about as I didnt really believe that there could be that many Starlings hanging around. There must be at least a 1000 of them, in his shed and generally around his yard. I was of the opinion that they are protected, but a mate reckons they are pests and can be shot. I've had a bit of a search online but there is conflicting information. Anyone got a defnite answer.

chucken1

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/s/starling/legal.aspx

Invincible

chucken1 wrote: »

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/s/starling/legal.aspx

That article refers to english law,which is of no relevance here.

homerhop

Thats an english website chucken, no relevance to here

Dusty87

chucken1 wrote: »

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/s/starling/legal.aspx

this is ireland, not the uk. I have been asked to sort the same problem as op.

chucken1

Sorry
Have a read of this one..

http://www.npws.ie/en/WildlifePlanningtheLaw/BirdsDirectivederogations/

Invincible

Read page 13 of this NPWS protected species PDF http://www.npws.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Checklist_species.pdf

Birdnuts

PAIMEI wrote: »

A farmer has asked me about getting rid of a flock of Starlings that are eating his feed and generally being a nuisance. I went up to have a look today to see what he was on about as I didnt really believe that there could be that many Starlings hanging around. There must be at least a 1000 of them, in his shed and generally around his yard. I was of the opinion that they are protected, but a mate reckons they are pests and can be shot. I've had a bit of a search online but there is conflicting information. Anyone got a defnite answer.

There's a farmer I know in these parts who had the exact same problems with starlings - he got one of those falcon cut-outs and some sort of sound recording of a falcon calling. Sorted out the problem straight away:)

greylag

from what little i know i think u need a permit to shoot them

welsummer

you would need shot size no 9's. sound like a good afternoon

bunny shooter

Aren't they on the "pest" derogation?

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

Aren't they on the "pest" derogation?

http://www.npws.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Declaration%20regarding%20Leinster%20September%202010.pdf

http://www.npws.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Declaration%20regarding%20Munster%20%20September%202010.pdf

http://www.npws.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Declaration%20regarding%20Connacht%20September%202010.pdf

bunny shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

http://www.npws.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Declaration%20regarding%20Leinster%20September%202010.pdf

http://www.npws.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Declaration%20regarding%20Munster%20%20September%202010.pdf

http://www.npws.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Declaration%20regarding%20Connacht%20September%202010.pdf

Isn't there alist attached to the one they publish in the NARGC Irish Shooters Digest ?

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

Isn't there alist attached to the one they publish in the NARGC Irish Shooters Digest ?

Not being a member I do not know.

I do know Starlings destroy Silage with sh*te and a section 42 would cover one if one wanted to shoot them

bunny shooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Not being a member I do not know.

Come on tac ...................... cent will drop :P

I do know Starlings destroy Silage with sh*te and a section 42 would cover one if one wanted to shoot them[/QUOTE]

Seriously I think they are listed on the derogation...........will see if I have an old copy of the Digest ........................

Liam_D

They can be shot in the north as they're considered a pest.

FERNHILLROCK

Yes, it is illegal to shoot starlings, view article in Farmers Journal, July 15, 2011, farmer in Tullamore fined €500 for shooting starlings, he was protecting his livestock, and feed, from them pooing on and eating it. I think it's a disgrace that a judge would impose a fine on him for protecting his livelihood.
What I would like to know is, who found out and how did they prove case, and who took case??
What is this country coming to? Being said and led by Europe.
I have a problem for years with Traaavelers, coming on my land with hounds, hunting hares, report it regularly to Gardai, to no avail, and the hare is a protected species too.
I got car reg numbers, and Gardai talked to them, but don't care about farmers.
Why should I pay to take legal case, and they get free legal aid!!
Any suggestions on how to deal with the the problem??
Neighbour suggested I shoot the dogs.

Tawny Owl

Act in early 2005 in England, making the species fully protected in England.

Dont know what law is in Ireland

Tawny Owl

Well if the Dogs are on your Land shoot them if they are causing a Problem No Dogs no other Problems

Tackleberrywho

Tawny Owl wrote: »

Act in early 2005 in England, making the species fully protected in England.

Dont know what law is in Ireland

Protected

Need a Section 42 to controll them.
last year in the hard weather, thousands of them invaded farms in their thousands for food. <MOD SNIP>

Farmer fined
Shooters case still pending

Tawny Owl

Well done Tackleberrywho we need as much info as possible to make sure no one get's them self in bother

Tackleberrywho

Tawny Owl wrote: »

Well done Tackleberrywho we need as much info as possible to make sure no one get's them self in bother

That was ~2-3 weeks ago.

CC due @ end of month for shooters.

Reading between the lines.
Multiple shoots caused comotion that caused Ranger to investigate

I have seen starlings swarm in thousands in winter, amazing to see, and amazing to watch how the swarm/flock can change shape and direction.

Not so amazing when they shi*e on fodder and animals will not eat it, and it's -22 outside so animals die.

They were very unlucky to have the Judge they had too, told Farmer to get a Scarecrow :rolleyes: (snow on ground for weeks animals and birds lost all inhibitions in will to live )

<MOD SNIP>

Cass

FERNHILLROCK wrote: »

Yes, it is illegal to shoot starlings, view article in Farmers Journal, July 15, 2011, ...

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Protected

Need a Section 42 to controll them.
pending

Can one of you point me to the relevant legislation/law/SI/Act that says they are protected.

So far i can only find a list of EXCLUDED wild birds from the protected species list and Starings are included on the list. Meaning they are unprotected, and hence can be shot.

This was in the 1976 Wildlife Act, section 22, which was amended by section 30 of the 2000 Act, but it did not remve Starlings from the Unprotected list. So as far as i can see they are still unprotected. So if you have newer legislation that says otherwise could you please inform or give me a link t it.

I have a problem for years with Traaavelers, coming on my land with hounds, hunting hares, ................Any suggestions on how to deal with the the problem??
Neighbour suggested I shoot the dogs

Will he pay for the court case?

Its not so easy as just shooting the dog. There are steps that need to be taken before shooting a dog would be legal and justified. Contacting the gardai, dog warden, owner of the animal, etc are all steps. not to mention a witness that will verify that you had to shoot the dog for the protection of livestock.

If you shoot the dog because you are annoyed at the people that you say are trespassing you leave yourself open to a world of legal problems. Not to mention if the people with the dogs are present they cold claim they awere fearful for their safety, and you could loose your firearms, and face prosecution.

There are a number of previous threads about dog control, but for your own sake DO NOT just go shooting first and asking qestions later.

Tackleberrywho

Pardon the Pun Ezri

Put tell that to the Judge

€500 fine for farmer
We will not know the outcome for another week or so for the accused shooters

<MOD SNIP>

As far as I was informed there not under derogation, and not given a season, nor classed as vermin without a season

I'd personally class them as vermin as they destroy feedstuffs and are far from scarce, but I'm only an ordinary Joe

Cass

None of that post is an answer.

You said earlier that they are protected. Do you know this for a fact or are you assuming because some farmer got fined by a judge for shooting them?

I'm not looking for court case verdicts, and definitely not current court case discussions as its prohibited under boards.ie rules (seriously legal matter so if you know anything about the case DO NOT discuss it on boards until its over).

I'm simply looking to clarify it for my sake and everyone else's sake. It'll put this matter to bed once and for all.

Tackleberrywho

Ezridax wrote: »

None of that post is an answer.

You said earlier that they are protected. Do you know this for a fact or are you assuming because some farmer got fined by a judge for shooting them?

I'm not looking for court case verdicts, and definitely not current court case discussions as its prohibited under boards.ie rules (seriously legal matter so if you know anything about the case DO NOT discuss it on boards until its over).

I'm simply looking to clarify it for my sake and everyone else's sake. It'll put this matter to bed once and for all.

Anything I mentioned is a matter of public record

If the Tullamore Trib/rag is considered that......

I spent hours going over the derogations and the hunting lists. Starlings are not on either
<mod snip>
As per trib article

A boards member has stated on the target shooting thread that he prints the trib, so he may be able to provide a copy of article. As I said, I am only an ordinary Joe who adheres to derogations,Sections & hunting seasons. I am not FREE LEGAL AID or Citizens Advice, so I can only base my knowledge on the info to hand



http://www.npws.ie/legislationandconventions/irishlaw/eubirdsdirectivederogations/


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62492223&postcount=13

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Anything I mentioned is a matter of public record

If the Tullamore Trib/rag is considered that......

No its not. If they want to risk it so be it, but the admin of boards.ie have been more than clear that ASOLUTELY NO dscussing of pending, current cases in any courts are to be discussed on boards.

I spent hours going over the derogations and the hunting lists. Starlings are not on either

Its on the third Schedule of the 1976 Act.

As I said, I am only an ordinary Joe who adheres to derogations,Sections & hunting seasons. I am not FREE LEGAL AID or Citizens Advice, so I can only base my knowledge on the info to hand

http://www.npws.ie/legislationandconventions/irishlaw/eubirdsdirectivederogations/

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62492223&postcount=13

Those two links are the hunting seasons for 2009/2010 and a list of Wild birds and derogations. As Starlings, according to what i can source from the Acts, are not protected or do not have a season they are not classed as Wild Birds under law and therefore cannot be held to the same seasons and derogation rules as other Wild Birds that may or may not have a season.

Tackleberrywho

Ezridax wrote: »

No its not. If they want to risk it so be it, but the admin of boards.ie have been more than clear that ASOLUTELY NO dscussing of pending, current cases in any courts are to be discussed on boards.



Its on the third Schedule of the 1976 Act.




Those two links are the hunting seasons for 2009/2010 and a list of Wild birds and derogations. As Starlings, according to what i can source from the Acts, are not protected or do not have a season they are not classed as Wild Birds under law and therefore cannot be held to the same seasons and derogation rules as other Wild Birds that may or may not have a season.

All I know of the case was from the print media, I do not know the Farmer or the shooter who were Named and addressed in the paper


If you can post a paragraph outlining starlings classifications under Irish law please do


thousands of farmers will thank you, as the current legal precedent is that you will get fined for having them killed.

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

All I know of the case was from the print media, I do not know the Farmer or the shooter who were Named and addressed in the paper

Fair enough, but still the rule of the Admins applies. NO DISCUSSION ABOUT IT.

If you can post a paragraph outlining starlings classifications under Irish law please do

Third Schedule, 1976 Wildlife Act.

Section 22, 1976 Wildlife Act.

Section 30 (as amended from section 22 of principal Act) 2000.

thousands of farmers will thank you, as the current legal precedent is that you will get fined for having them killed.

Nothing i write or say should be confused as legal advice, nor should anyone act on anything i say or reference as i'm not a solicitor and i am not giving out legal advice/information.

I am however giving my personal opinion based on my reading of the above linked legislation.

Tackleberrywho

Does this mean Bullfinch, a song bird is not protected as well as starlings.........


Bullfinch

Carrion Crow

Greater Black-backed Gull

Herring Gull

Hooded (Grey) Crow

House Sparrow

Jackdaw

Jay

Lesser Black-backed Gull

Magpie

Pigeons, including Wood Pigeon, but not including carrier pigeons, racing homing pigeons or doves

Rook

Starling





I'd be dubious about that acts relevance today

Anyway 03:26 am = Bedtime!

fodda

Tawny Owl wrote: »

Well if the Dogs are on your Land shoot them if they are causing a Problem No Dogs no other Problems

You can not shoot a dog "just" for being on your land, only in certain circumstances after a procedure has been followed. Besides i think the farmers problem is with the owners.

As regards shooting starlings for messing up silage. I thought silage was covered in plastic?

Birdnuts

AFAIK the updated wildlife life act protects all wild birds, apart from the ones on yearly derogations like certain corvids and pigeons eg.

http://www.npws.ie/media/npws/publications/legaldocs/Declarationfor%20Leinster.pdf

and certain game birds/wildfowl with seasons.

Since Starlings are not mentioned above I would assume you'd need a special licence to shoot them.

PS: In fact I'm certain of the above since the official adoption of the EU Birds directive in Ireland a few years back(and this is stated on the NPWS website) - probably what the judge in the case mentioned was working off too.

marlin vs

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Does this mean Bullfinch, a song bird is not protected as well as starlings.........

Bullfinches cause havoc on apple farm's, feeding on the bud's of the trees, i'm not sure whether you can shoot them or not, but I know a chap that got a licence to trap them on an apple farm a good few year's ago.

Birdnuts

marlin vs wrote: »

Bullfinches cause havoc on apple farm's, feeding on the bud's of the trees, i'm not sure whether you can shoot them or not, but I know a chap that got a licence to trap them on an apple farm a good few year's ago.

That sounds about right ie. you need a special licence for birds not on the official derogations and game list:)

fodda

Birdnuts wrote: »

That sounds about right ie. you need a special licence for birds not on the official derogations and game list:)

"On an apple farm" maybe yes.

Grizzly 45

Small different note.Re court cases.This has been under review now for quite some time by boards legal dept.Is there any chance that this might be decided in the next few days/months/years that normal discourse of cases in a public domain might be resumed?

Tackleberrywho

fodda wrote: »

As regards shooting starlings for messing up silage. I thought silage was covered in plastic?

Do you know anything about farming?
You open the pit in winter after the grass has fermented.

you put silage twice a day in the sheds for the cows to eat with a silage grab which in real terms may take the hole day depending on how much cattle you have .
Starlings whizz in and out like spitfires and **** on the silage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH-groCeKbE

This is very close to what I see every winter around farm yards minus the music of course

fodda

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Do you know anything about farming?
You open the pit in winter after the grass has fermented.

you put silage twice a day in the sheds for the cows to eat with a silage grab which in real terms may take the hole day depending on how much cattle you have .
Starlings whizz in and out like spitfires and **** on the silage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH-groCeKbE

This is very close to what I see every winter around farm yards minus the music of course

Quite a bit actually:) and i also know a bit about England:) and i also know that Otmoor is also in England:) and i also know Otmoor is a nature reserve:) Where i believe your youtube vid was taken

Not a good example Tack.

Tackleberrywho

fodda wrote: »

Quite a bit actually:) and i also know a bit about England:) and i also know that Otmoor is also in England:) and i also know Otmoor is a nature reserve:) Where i believe your youtube vid was taken

Not a good example Tack.

well why ask the question about plastic then??

I found a video from Ireland so I'll post it, not too many around here could be ars*ed filming them as they hate them! Some down in cork must have

This has a better tune :rolleyes:

The Farmer is from the midlands, that video above is in cork, there are more starlings in the midlands than that, seen with my own eyes

Can you Fodda Explain to us, if you know loads about farming why are you asking about silage plastic, when anyone who never farmed but shoots would have at least seen farms operating in winter whilst out hunting
And would have seen starlings in their thousands

Birdnuts

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You open the pit in winter after the grass has fermented.

Tipp is one of the last bastions of the standard silage pit(all those big dairy farmers!!) - around here its pretty much all baled silage now.

Tackleberrywho

Birdnuts wrote: »

Tipp is one of the last bastions of the standard silage pit(all those big dairy farmers!!) - around here its pretty much all baled silage now.

Will be pit silage country over soon as it is much cheaper to run Year on Year

Baled silage is normally done in small quantities for handiness
but with all the budget cuts this year farmers are reverting to pit silage.

I'll take out my cam next winter to show the starlings in action around a pit

Birdnuts

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Will be pit silage country over soon as it is much cheaper to run Year on Year

Baled silage is normally done in small quantities for handiness
but with all the budget cuts this year farmers are reverting to pit silage.

I'll take out my cam next winter to show the starlings in action around a pit

Interesting - I assume though you would need existing infrastructure like pit walls, storage tanks(for effluent) and a silage slicer. Don't think I have the scale in my place to upgrade to such a level:(

PS: Do you know what attracts the starlings to the pit in the first place? - are there insect larvae or something living in/around the pit or the silage itself

Tackleberrywho

Birdnuts wrote: »

Interesting - I assume though you would need existing infrastructure like pit walls, storage tanks(for effluent) and a silage slicer. Don't think I have the scale in my place to upgrade to such a level:(

PS: Do you know what attracts the starlings to the pit in the first place? - are there insect larvae or something living in/around the pit or the silage itself

Some farmers actually use efflienut as an additive to the drinking troughs as it is full of nutrients
Pit walls are not necessary, but reccomended for safety when backing up silage.
The slicer is part of the loading shovel bucket, many farmers have teleporter/loading shovels these days instead of tractors for stall feeding.

The starlings in the frost were especially keen on silage for all the nice insets inside it, and even to eat the grass itself as food was so scarce, come farmers put barley through the pit to improve feed quality etc.

dermot218

i know two guys that got there guns taken of them by the garda and rangers for shooting starlings .they are protected and even asection 42 would be v hard to get for stalings

fodda

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Can you Fodda Explain to us, if you know loads about farming why are you asking about silage plastic, when anyone who never farmed but shoots would have at least seen farms operating in winter whilst out hunting
And would have seen starlings in their thousands

Something i never understood in Ireland is that as soon as someone gets a gun, everbody has to prove a reason why you cant shoot something. To read some posts it must seem to non hunters that there is a war going on and man's survival depends on eliminating "this" particular species.:D

To answer your question Tack:-

All through the 70's and 80's in the UK when the starlings used to flock in massive numbers at the end of the summer, i can honestly say i never heard of anyone saying that they need to be or were engaged in shooting them, even when your washing got bombed.:) I believe in the 90's for some reason they have now become quite rare and that's why they are protected?....Dont know.

Tackleberrywho

fodda wrote: »

Something i never understood in Ireland is that as soon as someone gets a gun, everbody has to prove a reason why you cant shoot something. To read some posts it must seem to non hunters that there is a war going on and man's survival depends on eliminating "this" particular species.:D

To answer your question Tack:-

All through the 70's and 80's in the UK when the starlings used to flock in massive numbers at the end of the summer, i can honestly say i never heard of anyone saying that they need to be or were engaged in shooting them, even when your washing got bombed.:) I believe in the 90's for some reason they have now become quite rare and that's why they are protected?....Dont know.

Seem to be going on "ethics" here, which is not for the hunting forum last time I checked

I have farmers ask me all the time to shoot starlings, I use the recent court case as an example of the law being an ass, and why I will not do it without a section 42....

I will help any farmer apply for one if they so wish, I reckon this will become popular after recent court cases.....

Spunk84

If you wanna see thousands of starlings come to kildare, they swarm fields like bees. Crazy looking, as for being illegal to shoot them:rolleyes: actual never knew that:o