Why are we not using the salt from Carrickfergus?

n97 mini

That lad from the NRA with the American accent is forever talking about shipments of salt from Spain and other exotic locations, but most people don't seem to know that there's a massive salt mine on this island.

Why are we not using local salt?

http://www.irishsaltmining.com

Cookie_Monster

half a million tonnes a year, not like its a small producer or anything.
seems a bit odd that its not being used

Judgement Day

n97 mini wrote: »

That lad from the NRA with the American accent is forever talking about shipments of salt from Spain and other exotic locations, but most people don't seem to know that there's a massive salt mine on this island.

Why are we not using local salt?

http://www.irishsaltmining.com

I should think at this stage everybody but the NRA knows that there is a salt mine in Carrickfergus but this is Ireland and we do things differently. :rolleyes:

ardmacha

There is nothing odd about this, and some salt was obtained from Carrickfergus. But there is snow and ice all over northern Europe and a massive demand for salt. The Carrickfergus mine can sell all it can produce and more, you can't just say that it should stay in Ireland. Additional supplies have to be procured elsewhere and now they have been things should ease.

maximoose

Woah, I've lived in Carrickfergus for 22 years and didnt know we had a salt mine....

Bluetonic

Judgement Day wrote: »

I should think at this stage everybody but the NRA knows that there is a salt mine in Carrickfergus but this is Ireland and we do things differently. :rolleyes:

Carrickfergus is in the UK and supplies most of it's product to the UK market.

What's hard to understand about that?

Judgement Day

Bluetonic wrote: »

Carrickfergus is in the UK and supplies most of it's product to the UK market.

What's hard to understand about that?

Carrickfergus is on the island of Ireland - what's hard to understand about that? I would have thought it would have made sense to source a reliable local supply of salt after the January debacle but then I'm British and obviously think differently. :rolleyes:

n97 mini

Bluetonic wrote: »

Carrickfergus is in the UK and supplies most of it's product to the UK market.

What's hard to understand about that?

Nothing. But that's not the question.

Kilroot is a massive operation running all year around. Why isn't the majority of the NRA stock from this source?

I wonder what the Greens' opinion is of the size of the carbon footprint associated with shipping salt all the way from Spain.

steamengine

n97 mini wrote: »

Nothing. But that's not the question.

Kilroot is a massive operation running all year around. Why isn't the majority of the NRA stock from this source?

I wonder what the Greens' opinion is of the size of the carbon footprint associated with shipping salt all the way from Spain.

Be quiet !!! They might charter a sailing ship and the salt will never arrive !!!

28064212

Judgement Day wrote: »

Carrickfergus is on the island of Ireland - what's hard to understand about that? I would have thought it would have made sense to source a reliable local supply of salt after the January debacle but then I'm British and obviously think differently. :rolleyes:

Has there been any suggestion that the problems we have had with salt supplies have been caused by not using a 'local' source? What would using Carrickfergus have achieved? If it was cheaper and could match our needs, we'd already be using it. So there's obviously a reason for using a non-local supplier. You don't buy potatoes from Brazil if you can get them from your neighbour, unless your neighbour is selling them at twice the price

amacachi

28064212 wrote: »

Has there been any suggestion that the problems we have had with salt supplies have been caused by not using a 'local' source? What would using Carrickfergus have achieved? If it was cheaper and could match our needs, we'd already be using it. So there's obviously a reason for using a non-local supplier. You don't buy potatoes from Brazil if you can get them from your neighbour, unless your neighbour is selling them at twice the price

Oh gee, I dunno, maybe we wouldn't have to wait the extra few days for it to come through the med and up through the Bay of Biscay etc. I don't know, it's just an idea.

Judgement Day

28064212 wrote: »

Has there been any suggestion that the problems we have had with salt supplies have been caused by not using a 'local' source? What would using Carrickfergus have achieved? If it was cheaper and could match our needs, we'd already be using it. So there's obviously a reason for using a non-local supplier. You don't buy potatoes from Brazil if you can get them from your neighbour, unless your neighbour is selling them at twice the price

Are you seriously suggesting that it is easier to ship salt from North Africa rather than Carrickfergus? If you are then you should apply to the NRA for a job without delay. The salt mines in North Africa are probably owned by the brother in law of some well placed FF gombeen man - either that or brown envelopes have been involved. Only in Ireland!

AngryLips

:pac: we shouldn't be using any salt for grit until local salt can be acquired instead this carry-on where we're flushing money out of the country on foreign salt while there's plenty back home

28064212

amacachi wrote: »

Oh gee, I dunno, maybe we wouldn't have to wait the extra few days for it to come through the med and up through the Bay of Biscay etc. I don't know, it's just an idea.

You think there's just a load of salt sitting there waiting to be taken if only someone wanted it?

Judgement Day wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that it is easier to ship salt from North Africa rather than Carrickfergus?

Are you seriously suggesting the only reason we're not buying local is because of some FF conspiracy?

What benefits would buying from Carrickfergus have brought us? How much is a tonne of salt from there as opposed to from North Africa? How much is the transport costs per tonne? What does your cost analysis say? Or are you just making stuff up?

The failings of the government in the current weather are down to poor planning, it's nothing to do with the source of the salt

amacachi

28064212 wrote: »

You think there's just a load of salt sitting there waiting to be taken if only someone wanted it?

No, I would assume that there's something of a market in effect, and that if willing to pay a little more than we're paying for salt from another bloody continent we'd have it quicker. You've seen what the lack of salt has already cost yes?

The source of the salt is part of the poor planning.

28064212

amacachi wrote: »

No, I would assume that there's something of a market in effect, and that if willing to pay a little more than we're paying for salt from another bloody continent we'd have it quicker.

No, we wouldn't. If we put in an order for 20,000 tonnes of salt to the Carrickfergus mine for December 10th, we would get 20,000 tonnes of salt on December 10th. If we realised on December 1st we didn't have any left for the next 10 days, we would not be able to somehow magically speed up that order because "we really need it". In the meantime, we're wasting money on salt we could have gotten cheaper elsewhere

Replace Carrickfergus with any mine and it makes absolutely no difference

Monty Burnz

n97 mini wrote: »

That lad from the NRA with the American accent is forever talking about shipments of salt from Spain and other exotic locations, but most people don't seem to know that there's a massive salt mine on this island.

Why are we not using local salt?

http://www.irishsaltmining.com

On a side note, that website looks like it was made by FAS trainee in 1994.

amacachi

28064212 wrote: »

No, we wouldn't. If we put in an order for 20,000 tonnes of salt to the Carrickfergus mine for December 10th, we would get 20,000 tonnes of salt on December 10th. If we realised on December 1st we didn't have any left for the next 10 days, we would not be able to somehow magically speed up that order because "we really need it". In the meantime, we're wasting money on salt we could have gotten cheaper elsewhere

Replace Carrickfergus with any mine and it makes absolutely no difference

So they have a set price list and that's that? Sounds a bit silly of them when they could've made a nice extra profit over the last while.
Odd that the mine in Africa seems to be able to fulfill orders as soon as they get them though while the one here is far more inefficient.

Plazaman

Yeah was listening to the American NRA Guy on Matt Cooper who tried his best to rile him with the question "Hold on, you mean to say we're importing salt from Morocco (which is where todays shipment is coming from seemingly) and the Salt Mine in Northern Ireland is exporting to the UK?". But he held his ground and explained that WE ARE getting some salt shipments from Carrickfergus but they have other customers too. After all it is a commercial business and they're making more money selling it abroad than to Ireland. "Will ya give us a couple of thousand tons of salt like a good lad since we're all on the same island together" just doesn't cut it.

28064212

amacachi wrote: »

So they have a set price list and that's that? Sounds a bit silly of them when they could've made a nice extra profit over the last while.
Odd that the mine in Africa seems to be able to fulfill orders as soon as they get them though while the one here is far more inefficient.

When were the orders put in? How much spare production does Carrickfergus have? How fast can they react? Do you have any clue whatsoever?

amacachi

28064212 wrote: »

When were the orders put in? How much spare production does Carrickfergus have? How fast can they react? Do you have any clue whatsoever?

I'm assuming you have more of a clue than me but are holding back on details but just waving your hands instead.

28064212

amacachi wrote: »

I'm assuming you have more of a clue than me but are holding back on details but just waving your hands instead.

Where did I claim I knew anything about the salt business? You're the one who's saying the current process is completely wrong and that we should be buying from Carrickfergus, but you haven't given any reason beyond "they're local". How would the situation be any better if Carrickfergus was our supplier instead of North Africa? Would it be cheaper? Faster? How?

n97 mini

Hello

Can you tell me what quantities of salt were purchased, and from where, so far this year?

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Public sector bodies are generally useless at answering emails, and I'm expecting the NRA to be no different.

dowlingm

Is it the "wrong" type of salt? i.e. with crystalline structures too fine to be usefully spread? Even if it was, that shouldn't prevent salt brines assuming local councils have the vehicles to spread them.

In any case, sole dependence on salt, which is environmentally damaging, corrosive to vehicles and concrete forms and is useless below about -13C, is a bad idea. Toronto Pearson airport uses sodium formate and for household use mixtures of salt and calcium chloride are used which are effective to the -25/-30C range.

However, if Ireland still had a sugar beet industry, this could be used to reduce salt dependence.

Judgement Day

28064212 wrote: »

When were the orders put in? How much spare production does Carrickfergus have? How fast can they react? Do you have any clue whatsoever?

Do you - you seem to be able to speak with great authority? :rolleyes:

Judgement Day

dowlingm wrote: »

Is it the "wrong" type of salt? i.e. with crystalline structures too fine to be usefully spread? Even if it was, that shouldn't prevent salt brines assuming local councils have the vehicles to spread them.

In any case, sole dependence on salt, which is environmentally damaging, corrosive to vehicles and concrete forms and is useless below about -13C, is a bad idea. Toronto Pearson airport uses sodium formate and for household use mixtures of salt and calcium chloride are used which are effective to the -25/-30C range.

However, if Ireland still had a sugar beet industry, this could be used to reduce salt dependence.

Something like the wrong kind of leaves? Of course it must be the wrong kind of salt that's why the stupid British want it.

28064212

Judgement Day wrote: »

Do you - you seem to be able to speak with great authority? :rolleyes:

Answered previously ^

I'm not the one claiming that the current process is wrong when I've no knowledge of it

Judgement Day

28064212 wrote: »

Answered previously ^

I'm not the one claiming that the current process is wrong when I've no knowledge of it

No you're the one claiming the current process is correct when you've no knowledge of it.

amacachi

28064212 wrote: »

Where did I claim I knew anything about the salt business? You're the one who's saying the current process is completely wrong and that we should be buying from Carrickfergus, but you haven't given any reason beyond "they're local". How would the situation be any better if Carrickfergus was our supplier instead of North Africa? Would it be cheaper? Faster? How?

Time = Distance/Speed.
Now we're hoping obviously to minimise speed. Mathematically we could do this by differentiating etc. but for simplicity let's just look at the two components on the RHS of the equation as they are. In order to minimise the time we need to minimise distance and/or maximise the speed of delivery. I would take a massive stab in the dark and guess (I haven't verified this on Google maps or anything) that Carrickfergus is closer to most if not all of the places we need to get the salt to. I'll also take a guess that lorries will travel at least close to the same speed that ships laden with Salt would do.
Bearing these two things in mind, I imagine that "they're local" is quite a good reason to buy from there instead.
It's odd that the UK were able to up their orders overnight with no problem while the NRA couldn't do so.
There are a couple of reasons I can think that this is the case.
A) The NRA wasn't willing to pay a higher price for the salt than they're accustomed to or
They're locked into something with the mine they're been purchasing from until now.

There is another option, one which perhaps you believe, that there was no extra capacity in Carrickfergus. This doesn't seem to hold up too well when they increased their output.

nordydan

n97 mini wrote: »

That lad from the NRA with the American accent is forever talking about shipments of salt from Spain and other exotic locations, but most people don't seem to know that there's a massive salt mine on this island.

Why are we not using local salt?

http://www.irishsaltmining.com

Free staters are very a la carte about Irishness

Cookie_Monster

n97 mini wrote: »

Public sector bodies are generally useless at answering emails, and I'm expecting the NRA to be no different.

from NRA:

hello,
that commercially sensitive info and will not be given out...

is my bet on the answer

28064212

Judgement Day wrote: »

No you're the one claiming the current process is correct when you've no knowledge of it.

Yes. Because someone somewhere made a decision to buy salt. Whether they thought about it for more than 10 seconds or not, I don't know, but saying it's wrong with no reasons to show why it's wrong is not an argument, it's a random statement. You may as well say "we should make all our clothes locally" with no reason for why we should do it

amacachi wrote: »

Time = Distance/Speed.
Now we're hoping obviously to minimise speed. Mathematically we could do this by differentiating etc. but for simplicity let's just look at the two components on the RHS of the equation as they are. In order to minimise the time we need to minimise distance and/or maximise the speed of delivery. I would take a massive stab in the dark and guess (I haven't verified this on Google maps or anything) that Carrickfergus is closer to most if not all of the places we need to get the salt to. I'll also take a guess that lorries will travel at least close to the same speed that ships laden with Salt would do.
Bearing these two things in mind, I imagine that "they're local" is quite a good reason to buy from there instead.
It's odd that the UK were able to up their orders overnight with no problem while the NRA couldn't do so.
There are a couple of reasons I can think that this is the case.
A) The NRA wasn't willing to pay a higher price for the salt than they're accustomed to or
They're locked into something with the mine they're been purchasing from until now.

There is another option, one which perhaps you believe, that there was no extra capacity in Carrickfergus. This doesn't seem to hold up too well when they increased their output.

So everything should be bought locally? Regardless of any other factors? What if Carrickfergus are charging €2m a tonne to get it Wednesday, and North Africa are charging 50 cent a tonne and we get it Friday? Do we go to Carrickfergus then?

amacachi

So everything should be bought locally? Regardless of any other factors? What if Carrickfergus are charging €2m a tonne to get it Wednesday, and North Africa are charging 50 cent a tonne and we get it Friday? Do we go to Carrickfergus then?

Yup, that's what I said, well done.

JoeySully

That "half a yank" from the NRA was on the radio during the week and the HOOK asked him why the hell they weren't getting the salt from an Irish mine and he said that they were getting salt from them. But the mine has other customers and also there is only so much salt they can dig in the given time.

Judgement Day

JoeySully wrote: »

That "half a yank" from the NRA was on the radio during the week and the HOOK asked him why the hell they weren't getting the salt from an Irish mine and he said that they were getting salt from them. But the mine has other customers and also there is only so much salt they can dig in the given time.

Very good and that is my point - after the January fiasco no attempt appears to have been made to secure the bulk of our requirments from NI. Jobs for 'Irish' people, small carbon footprint and no chance of ships running aground. Of course, in an ideal world the salt could be railed from Carrickfergus to distribution centres around the country.

Ste.phen

Arguably a bulk tanker can get salt here at a lower carbon usage per tonne and probably a lower time per tonne than trucking it down from Carrickfergus one truck at a time
depends on the quantities involved and where they're going i guess

amacachi

Ste.phen wrote: »

Arguably a bulk tanker can get salt here at a lower carbon usage per tonne and probably a lower time per tonne than trucking it down from Carrickfergus one truck at a time
depends on the quantities involved and where they're going i guess

It'll have to be moved "one truck at a time" at some point before it's spread though.

dowlingm

Right beside the Larne railway line too. An NIR 111 could drag down a nice sized batch, but I think they prefer ship delivery as they have their own loading dock and I don't think Translink have any intention of going near railfreight.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Very good and that is my point - after the January fiasco no attempt appears to have been made to secure the bulk of our requirments from NI. Jobs for 'Irish' people, small carbon footprint and no chance of ships running aground. Of course, in an ideal world the salt could be railed from Carrickfergus to distribution centres around the country.

Apparently the salt can't be stockpiled for long as it's prone to wet due to rain or snow so it's mined as needed.

Bluetonic

Judgement Day wrote: »

I would have thought it would have made sense to source a reliable local supply of salt after the January debacle

Clearly you don't have an iota of information about the ability of the mine in question to supply for a contract from the NRA whilst also servicing it's existing contracts from the UK, nor an iota of information about the commercial viability of same.

I love the way posters just think it's a simple matter of x and y, and fail to think about anything else..... I suppose lets not let any thought get in the way of another C&T mindless rant.

Judgement Day

Bluetonic wrote: »

Clearly you don't have an iota of information about the ability of the mine in question to supply for a contract from the NRA whilst also servicing it's existing contracts from the UK, nor an iota of information about the commercial viability of same.

I love the way posters just think it's a simple matter of x and y, and fail to think about anything else..... I suppose lets not let any thought get in the way of another C&T mindless rant.

Clearly or I wouldn't have posted 'I would have thought it would have made sense to source a reliable local supply of salt after the January debacle'..the key word there was thought.
I don't claim to know anything whatsoever about the Carrickfergus mine apart from that it is in close proximity to the Republic of Ireland and the information about already supplying local authorities down here gleaned from its website. Why don't you give us the benefit of your great knowledge instead of belittling other posters.

slimjimmc

AngryLips wrote: »

:pac: we shouldn't be using any salt for grit until local salt can be acquired instead this carry-on where we're flushing money out of the country on foreign salt while there's plenty back home

There are no local salt mines in Ireland (i.e. the Republic) and since the one in Carrickfergus is officially in the UK if we want any salt we have little choice than to continue flushing money out of the country on foreign salt.

n97 mini

slimjimmc wrote: »

There are no local salt mines in Ireland (i.e. the Republic) and since the one in Carrickfergus is officially in the UK if we want any salt we have little choice than to continue flushing money out of the country on foreign salt.

...whose employees will come this side of the border and spend it on cheap diesel.

But in seriousness tho, buying salt locally is more likely to benefit the economy locally.

W123-80's

I am probably over simplifying it.. but I would imagine EU Procurement rules have alot to do with it, and it depends alot on what type of frameworks/contracts for the supply of salt are already in place.

Either way you can be sure the NRA are unable to place an order tomorrow morning for x amount of salt using tax payers money without some sort of formal tendering procedure.

EDIT; It seems on reading the whole thread this point has already been aluded to. Apologies.

Guy:Incognito

Plazaman wrote: »

"Hold on, you mean to say we're importing salt from Morocco (which is where todays shipment is coming from seemingly) and the Salt Mine in Northern Ireland is exporting to the UK?". .

How can it be exporting to the UK if its already in the UK?

AlekSmart

I`m not so sure this Salt-Stock issue is any more than a red herring to deflect attention from other changes to the response mechanism.

It`s now apparent that the Dept of The Environment and the Local Authorities have substantially downgraded their Severe Weather contingency plans countrywide.

I watched Noel Dempsey parade his troops for the RTE News camera`s three weeks ago when he claimed there were 55,000 tonnes of salt stockpiled in the Republic.

Given that the worst of the weather was confined initially to the eastern seaboard region that amount should have been more than sufficient to allow a comprehensive programme of road treatment.

Now either Mr Dempsey was startlingly misinformed,or he was being economic with the facts as the continuing state of major roads in and around Greater Dublin starkly contradicts everything the gentleman said.

It is not merely about the availability of Salt,it is about having Staff and Equipment available 24 hours if necessary to attend to the many other tasks which copuld keep our roads operational.

As an example yesterday afternoon saw a very dangerous situation at Clonskeagh Road/Beaver Row which had cars,trucks and buses sliding dangerously on a totally untreated icy surface.

This situation had in fact been ongoing for 48 hours,but had developed to a situation which threatened to result in injury or worse.

The eventual outcome was the arrival of the Gardai in a Renault Van complete with blues and two`s .

They proceeded to unload several; bags of salt from the back of the van as well as a couple of plastic shovels with which they set about spreading the salt/grit and freeing the stuck vehicles.

Now this begs the question whether if the Gardai are now responsible for Road Treatment on a major national route,are the Council Workers now providing the escorts for the Banks Cash deliveries ?

Something is VERY wrong here and it`s my belief that Mr Dempsey and Mr Gormley are not being fortright about whatever policy change has occured.

I would be quite happy if either of these Ministers simply admitted publicly that the State Agencies were no longer getting involved in Road Treatment during adverse weather events...then at least the individual motorist would be able to make their own arrangements for better or worse rather than struggling on in the expectation that the Local Authorities would eventually address their responsibilities.

This has little or nothing to do with salt stocks...believe me !!

Capt'n Midnight

Ste.phen wrote: »

Arguably a bulk tanker can get salt here at a lower carbon usage per tonne and probably a lower time per tonne than trucking it down from Carrickfergus one truck at a time
depends on the quantities involved and where they're going i guess

We could ask them to deliver it to each town in Ireland and tell them not to worry too much about gradually shedding the load en route

corktina

slimjimmc wrote: »

There are no local salt mines in Ireland (i.e. the Republic) and since the one in Carrickfergus is officially in the UK if we want any salt we have little choice than to continue flushing money out of the country on foreign salt.

i doubt they will give us credit.....:rolleyes: