another stardust waiting to happen?

Fuinseog

I was out in a late night bar last night and the craic was amazing. it was a small enough bar, but wedged to the rafters. you could not fall in the place. there were several hundred people in it and it occurred to me that if there was a fire or similar incident, people would get seriously hurt in the stampede. this is the same of most late night bars.
are there no safety regulations regarding the amount of people, that can be inside a bar?

it appears profit is being put before personal safety.

Tabnabs

Report them to the local CoCo. The fire officer would investigate and make a call.

snappieT

There are limits on the number of people in bars. I have seen signs, for sure, in two different bars (Doyles & The Dragon) about maximum capacity. Whether those numbers are a legal maximum is another thing...

The Hill Billy

Consumer Issues? Not really a Dublin City topic.

cosmic

The issue with the Stardust was that the fire exits were boarded up.

mikemac

Chief fire officer for your area can investigate this.

Paulzx

Fuinseog wrote: »

I was out in a late night bar last night and the craic was amazing. it was a small enough bar, but wedged to the rafters. you could not fall in the place. there were several hundred people in it and it occurred to me that if there was a fire or similar incident, people would get seriously hurt in the stampede. this is the same of most late night bars.
are there no safety regulations regarding the amount of people, that can be inside a bar?

it appears profit is being put before personal safety.

If it was in Dublin ring 6734000(Dublin Fire Brigade) and ask to speak to Fire Prevention.

If you report it they will carry out an inspection

df1985

everywhere was wedged last night in fairness, had lads crowd surfing in one of the bars i was in!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Maybe the kind folk of the Emergency Services Forum can help with this question.

Hooch

Paulzx wrote: »

If it was in Dublin ring 6734000(Dublin Fire Brigade) and ask to speak to Fire Prevention.

If you report it they will carry out an inspection

Advise above from a Fire Fighter is bang on.

If outside Dublin ring local County Council and ask for the assistant Chief Fire Officer in charge - fire prevention's contact details.

civdef may have better info for country....

Zambia

On the bright side im glad to hear of a dublin pub packed to that extent. The mother has me believing your all down to splitting pints.

ivabiggon

Fuinseog wrote: »

I was out in a late night bar last night and the craic was amazing. it was a small enough bar, but wedged to the rafters. you could not fall in the place. there were several hundred people in it and it occurred to me that if there was a fire or similar incident, people would get seriously hurt in the stampede. this is the same of most late night bars.
are there no safety regulations regarding the amount of people, that can be inside a bar?

it appears profit is being put before personal safety.

as everybody has said contact your local fire prevention section of the co.co. and they do and inspection

but having said that the regulations governing places or assembly do have specific guidance in relations to the amount of floor space a premises has in ratio to the amount of people that can occupy that floor space, and this can be deceiving as the regulation doesn't take into account fixtures and fittings. For example tables, chairs, bars, support post, DJ box, couches that line the walls etc. and these obviously take up floor space.

So a premises that seems full to the eye may very well be within the legal limits of that particular place of assembly, and its licence.
off coarse the potential maximum capacity will govern the amount and the widths of the fire exits for egress.
hope this helps
regards
iv.

savagecabbages

What about "outdoors" smoking areas/courtyards? do these count as floorspace?

civdef

From a building regulations (i.e. fire safety cert) point of view, they're generally not, but from a general fire safety and licencing point of view it counts as floor space.


The occupancy load factor for a pub will be in the range of 0.3 to 1 square metre per person (0.3 on dance floor, 1 in a seated lounge).
As already stated, this can actually look very overcrowded, but the exit widths are designed for this and once they're not obstructed - it should be OK.

Some rules of thumb:

Maximum number of people with only one exit route = 50.
Max number with two exits = 500.

Total exit width required (after assuming the widest exit route is unavailable).

For 50 people - 750mm
For 100 people - 850mm
For 150 people - 950mm
For 220 people - 1050mm
Any more than 220 people - 5mm per person.

(These are all based on experiments carried out decades ago to achieve evacuation in 2.5 minutes).

E.g. a space holding 300 people needs at least 2 exits each 1500mm wide.


Having said all that, if you have any concerns at all about a premises, contact the local fire service fire prevention department. You can do this anonymously if needed. Overcrowding is taken very seriously.

Esel

cosmic wrote: »

The issue with the Stardust was that the fire exits were boarded up.

Weren't they locked, rather than boarded up?

mikemac

esel wrote: »

Weren't they locked, rather than boarded up?

Chained with padlocks.

The owner reckoned the emergency exits would be opened and customers would get in without paying. So they chained the doors.

Tragedy waiting to happen
And I can think of one nightclub in Ireland where this still happens. This thread has given me a kick in the ass to go contact my local Fire Chief

Fuinseog

Hill Billy wrote: »

Consumer Issues? Not really a Dublin City topic.

It happens in a lot of Dublin pubs and should be of concern to Dubliners, not just consumers. as I said its an accident waiting to happen and if there were a fire there would be plenty of shock and horror at how people could have been killed in a stampede.

I am sure its something the authorities are aware of, its hardly a great revelation I am making, but unless a specific complaint is made it will not be acted upon.

maybe its like the snow. nothing is done until it happens.

Fuinseog

feelingstressed wrote: »

Chained with padlocks.

The owner reckoned the emergency exits would be opened and customers would get in without paying. So they chained the doors.

Tragedy waiting to happen
And I can think of one nightclub in Ireland where this still happens. This thread has given me a kick in the ass to go contact my local Fire Chief

this is not the issue in these pubs, but if the crowd panic they will stampede and this would result in a number of casulties.

why are these pubs not checked automatically. DFB is certainly big enough to cater for this.

why do the bouncers not have a little counter so they know exactly how many people are inside?

Fuinseog

Paulzx wrote: »

If it was in Dublin ring 6734000(Dublin Fire Brigade) and ask to speak to Fire Prevention.

If you report it they will carry out an inspection

this is in all the late night bars in Dublin. check out Flannerys or Cafe en Seine on a Friday or Saturday night. its what called a known unknown.


unfortunately its apparently not regarded here as a Dublin problem and has been thrown out of the Dublin forum.

Shield

Are you saying the pubs you have named below keep their emergency exits deliberately locked on Friday and Saturday nights? If so, I don't suppose you'd have pictures?

Fuinseog wrote: »

this is in all the late night bars in Dublin. check out Flannerys or Cafe en Seine on a Friday or Saturday night. its what called a known unknown.

unfortunately its apparently not regarded here as a Dublin problem and has been thrown out of the Dublin forum.

Fuinseog

psni wrote: »

Are you saying the pubs you have named below keep their emergency exits deliberately locked on Friday and Saturday nights? If so, I don't suppose you'd have pictures?

at no point did I imply that the fire exits were deliberately locked. in any case I was there as a private citizen and it would have been inappropriate to try them out.

the point I was making, and I have repeated it several times, is that these venues appear to be grossly overcrowded. fire can happen anywhere anytime and in the ensuing panic people would be seriously injured.

maybe there is no maximum capacity regulation in Dublin or if there is one that it is not taken seriously.

Paulzx

Fuinseog wrote: »

this is in all the late night bars in Dublin. check out Flannerys or Cafe en Seine on a Friday or Saturday night. its what called a known unknown.


unfortunately its apparently not regarded here as a Dublin problem and has been thrown out of the Dublin forum.

You've been told what to do if you feel that the law us being broken. If you feel that strongly report it.

There is however a difference between a place being crowded and breaking the law. The only people with the legal powers to make this decision are Fire Prevention Officers.

Making criticisms here is pointless if you want action

Shield

Understood. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Fuinseog wrote: »

at no point did I imply that the fire exits were deliberately locked. in any case I was there as a private citizen and it would have been inappropriate to try them out.

the point I was making, and I have repeated it several times, is that these venues appear to be grossly overcrowded. fire can happen anywhere anytime and in the ensuing panic people would be seriously injured.

maybe there is no maximum capacity regulation in Dublin or if there is one that it is not taken seriously.

Shield

Mod note: For the record and for legal reasons, It should be clarified that some doors were found to be locked, some had padlocks and chains draped over them to give the impression they were locked (because people were previously letting their friends in who hadn't paid the admission fee), and some were just obstructed with bottle skips and chairs. The full Tribunal report for Stardust is here. The issue surrounding the 6 exits is covered in great detail in Chapter 3 of the report, from pages 103 to 160.

feelingstressed wrote: »

Chained with padlocks.

The owner reckoned the emergency exits would be opened and customers would get in without paying. So they chained the doors.

dfbemt

Lots of different pieces of legislation at work here, some referred to by previous posters, some incorrectly

To summarise, safe holding capacity is determined by fire safety certificate application as required for new premises under the Bulding Control Act. Older premises are a bit trickier but numbers can be set at annual license renewal (see below)

Issues regarding locked doors or even an open padlock left on a door are covered by the Ease of Escape in Places of Public Assembly Regulations and is the piece of legislation most commonly used while conducting During Performance Inspections (DPI's)

If a fire officer deems a place to be so dangerous as to present an 'immediate threat to life' a Closure Notice can be issued as per the Licensing of Indoor Events Act which amended the Fire Services Act. Use of this piece of legislation is more commonly used for apartment blocks, houses divided into flats, etc but has been used outside of Dublin to close a place down.

Fire officers can, and often do, object to publicans and dance licenses being renewed because of fire safety matters. The renewal is an annual event under the Intoxicating Liquor Act

There are lots of tools available to a fire officer and in most counties they are used to good effect. If you have a concern report it. It will be taken seriously.

Zambia

Fuinseog wrote: »

this is not the issue in these pubs, but if the crowd panic they will stampede and this would result in a number of casulties.

why are these pubs not checked automatically. DFB is certainly big enough to cater for this.

why do the bouncers not have a little counter so they know exactly how many people are inside?

During my time as a door man [I never bounced anyone] I had a clicker for in and one for out. So with some quick maths I knew how many I had.

We where told our capacitys and did try to stay within them.

stoneill

If you are in a public place - check out where the emergency exits are, and see if they are operational, not chained, etc.
Chances are that in an emergency, most people try to exit from where they entered. Herd mentality also kicks in, most people follow the crowd.

Emergency exits at the other end of the bar will have less people using them.

If you are not comfortable that you can get out in the event of an emergency, then leave.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Fuinseog wrote: »

unfortunately its apparently not regarded here as a Dublin problem and has been thrown out of the Dublin forum.

It wasn't "thrown out of the Dublin Forum", I moved it here as the guys on this forum are better qualified to answer questions of this nature.

Run_to_da_hills

snappieT wrote: »

There are limits on the number of people in bars. I have seen signs, for sure, in two different bars (Doyles & The Dragon) about maximum capacity. Whether those numbers are a legal maximum is another thing...

There may be limits in this country about the capacity of people permitted in bars and nightclubs but it seems to be rarely enforced compared to other countries particularly the US and parts of the UK.

I got an infraction in a forum last year when this subject came up and I dropped the name of a particular venue.

Bouncers should be equipped with clickers to monitor people going in and out and should be required to have a cut off point. In the States it is common to be waiting your turn outside until people leave before you are let in even if the pub / nightclub dose not seem crowded.

Darlughda

Because of what happened with Stardust, I tend to wander about when I am in a very crowded club/pub to check where the fire exits are, and if I can open them.

I've had a few bouncers getting annoyed with me about it, but I explain that unlike the theatre and cinema, there are no announcements regarding the whereabouts of the fire exits, and I want to see if they open easily.

savagecabbages

Doesn't opening the escapes in most places set off the alarm, resulting in a fine for whoever sets it off?

Most busy pubs and clubs have ways of knowing exactly how many people are inside, but i guess owners don't take the regulations seriously...

I think the state of the escape routes and their effectiveness is much more important than the number of people inside

ivabiggon

look, the majority on proprietors obey the rules and adhere to regulations, i have attended alot of fires and other type emergencies in nite clubs over my 20 years firefighting in dublin and all off them were successful evacuations and by in large have resulted in very few casualties, with the exception to a chemical release within a club which resulted in some minors.
making comparisons nowadays to the stardust fire is like making a comparison to the forensics investigation into the murder of the american in the play "the field" by john b keane.

there is none. thing have come along way since.

most people/public are now very aware of their own safety while out at night and everybody knows if they have a problem their is a manager who is accountable on site and they generally they complain and get a successful result.
nite clubs and pubs are probably the most conscious regarding this, i would have more of a worry for bedsits/digs which are very hard to govern and believe it or not some hotels.

every body see a clear exit at the end of hotel corridors and considers it safe, but in which i have experienced personally while on fire inspection/familiarity visits, when you walk these exit corridors and get to the end where the exit goes to the out side these are often clogged with boxes etc and used as storage areas. now we have no powers in law to order anyone to adhere to regs but generally we would give some friendly advice on these visits and the proprietors heads our advice...but they know we're coming in advance!!!

but where we really get results is when there is an ambulance assist case and the fire truck arrive to give me a dig out on the ambulance case and we go to use these exits and they are obstructed thats when the more off the record force full advice comes into play, legally we haven't a leg to stand on as a regular fire crew, but generally because of the organisation we represent this can be a bit of a hole opener for the staff.
i for one would be in favor for surprise visit from local fire crews...without warning.
merry xmas.

Yawns

Club I used to work in had 3 exits. Main door, 1 emergency exit halfway round, 1 at far end.

Small club, max about 700 ppl. Was checked very regulary by inspectors. Gave out cos the light bulb went as he was going by once In fairness it was years old and it only just happened

He knew it tho cos he checked the place like 10 times a year

I reckon it was due to ppl reporting the place tbh, quite a few get kicked out

highlydebased

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Bouncers should be equipped with clickers to monitor people going in and out and should be required to have a cut off point. In the States it is common to be waiting your turn outside until people leave before you are let in even if the pub / nightclub dose not seem crowded.

I see that all the time here. In or two smaller places I've seen them with 2 clickers to keep account of people leaving aswell as entering (only one entrance/exit) to give a rough idea of number inside.

I'd imagine the modern ticket dispensing systems in larger club keep total of how many are there...

slavetothegrind

ivabiggon wrote: »

l...but they know we're coming in advance!!!

rediculous as you said yourself in fairness!

What is the point of forewarning?

There should be legislation to allow a fire officer to close a premises in extremis or at least impose fines and add a substatial weight to their opinion when renewal time comes for the licences.

Election time coming......;)

civdef

Eh, there is.

Eru

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In the States it is common to be waiting your turn outside until people leave before you are let in even if the pub / nightclub dose not seem crowded.

Are you suggesting that in Ireland its rare to have people waiting to get into bars? Thats crazy talk. Plenty of Dublin bars and clubs will have a Q of people waiting to get in but have to wait because of numbers currently inside. In fact I would suggest most.

OP,
Can I enquire if you have rang this in yet and what response you got?

DaCooler

Fuinseog wrote: »

.

maybe there is no maximum capacity regulation in Dublin or if there is one that it is not taken seriously.

I happen to know that one of the mentioned clubs is aloud to hold 1450 people max and is regularly visited and inspected by the fire officer. The door men have counters on the door and can tell you at any point in the night how many people exactly are in the venue. I would also like to add that safety in this venue is taken very seriously.

maglite

Impartial first post poster?