The Irishman (Scorsese, De Niro, Pesci and Pacino)

Tony EH

Rikand wrote: »

the main guy ray liotta who was the redeemable character.

Henry Hill wasn't redeemed. He rolled over on his crew after the FBI caught him in possession, which he was told by Paulie not to get involved in. He was a scumbag and remained a scumbag when he was in the witness protection program.

There aren't any redeemable characters in 'Goodfellas'.

Ardillaun

Not near his best but still Scorsese and well worth watching. I suspect I’ll be back for multiple visits. As a geezer, I wasn’t troubled by the slow pace at all. It has been said that great artists tend to subtly repeat themselves because they don’t look to copy others in the same way as lesser talents do. Perhaps that is what we are seeing here?

Some quibbles. There’s the age question. The special effects were excellent but I would have preferred younger actors for the main parts, relegating the great trio (or at the very least De Niro) to minor roles. Scorsese hardly needs big names to attract financing at this stage. Pacino was the most convincing of them but not quite right for a man around the sixty mark, if I may so myself. (Doesn’t he look a bit like Ciarán Hinds when peering up at the flag?) I wonder if the age issue affected the script? For example, the relationships with Sheeran’s wife and kids weren’t developed enough early on to justify the daughters’ responses near the end.

And then there’s casting. In Casino, I wondered whether De Niro was the best man to play Jewish numbers whiz Ace Rothstein (even from the guys on the set, I might have preferred James Woods). Here he is as an Irish American, which is fairly OK, while Pacino is supposed to be a German-Irish-something American. I guess most people don’t know what Hoffa looked like in real life, certainly chubbier than Pacino. Given the pre-eminence of these actors and their, let’s say, fairly Italian appearance, it was hard for me to completely forget that, especially when Hoffa says ‘you people’ (meaning Italian Americans) to Tony Provenzano which could be doubly confusing given Hoffa’s somewhat Italian-sounding name. The theme of Mafia outsider-insider might have been developed a little more overtly, as it was in Goodfellas. Like Henry Hill and Jimmy Conway, Hoffa and Sheeran could never be part of the inner circle that held such sway in their lives. This must have been particularly galling for Hoffa who seemed ambivalent about organized crime, which kept him in power, and even Italians generally.

Another regret is that Pesci didn’t get more opportunity to show his skills. I suppose that was partly because his character was older than De Niro’s. He’s still a lively guy in real life and could turn in a few memorable performances yet. However, if it’s with Scorsese, let’s see something completely different.

py2006

I think one of the reasons Pesci decided to take the role was because it was different to his previous roles with Scorcese

El Duda

py2006 wrote: »

I think one of the reasons Pesci decided to take the role was because it was different to his previous roles with Scorcese

I wonder if Tony Pro was originally written with pesci in mind but he demanded a different/bigger of role as a deal breaker.

Gwynplaine

Watched it last night, on my own, put the phone away. Took a break around the 2 hour mark for the toilet and tea. Really enjoyed it. Al Pacino overdid "c#cksucker" a bit alright, and his hair looked ridiculous. I will watch it again, but wont be for a while. I can see how some people wouldn't be into it.
A solid 7/10 from me.

Riskymove

Tony EH wrote: »

Henry Hill wasn't redeemed.

sure he was a scumbag but how many people did he kill in the movie?

I think the point is that he was portrayed as a criminal scumbag sure, but not a nutjob ready to whack people for little reason

DrumSteve

py2006 wrote: »

I think one of the reasons Pesci decided to take the role was because it was different to his previous roles with Scorcese

I still felt like he was going to kill one of Sheerans kids at some point.

Aidric

Wombatman wrote: »

As one reviewer said “More Auldfellas than Goodfellas”.

Who was the reviewer, Joe Duffy? This movie never set out to be Goodfellas Part 2.

tylercheribini

Aidric wrote: »

Who was the reviewer, Joe Duffy? This movie never set out to be Goodfellas Part 2.

Haha touche.

blinding

Aidric wrote: »

Who was the reviewer, Joe Duffy? This movie never set out to be Goodfellas Part 2.

Not enough death for Joe Duffy . Is it possible to have enough death for Joe Duffy ?:eek:

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Aidric wrote: »

Who was the reviewer, Joe Duffy? This movie never set out to be Goodfellas Part 2.

It’s a joke. Don’t overanalyse it.

tylercheribini

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It’s a joke. Don’t overanalyse it.

And a very poor joke at that.

Sandor Clegane

Very interesting subject matter.

I enjoyed the film for the most part, one or two things bothered me, the obvious one being the grocer scene, that needs no explanation.

The other was when Chuckie, Hoffas son drove him and Sheeran to the house where he was murdered..he saw the two of them go in, this was the last time he was seen alive and nothing was ever made of it? didn't make any sense to me.

Also at times the age of the actors got in the way, CGI was a bit ropy in places and it affected the authenticity of it, for me anyway.

I didn't mind the way Frank was portrayed, he was cold, joyless, devoid of anything redeeming or decent. He was nothing more than a mob hitman and was portrayed as such.

Solid movie.

Ardillaun

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

Very interesting subject matter.

I enjoyed the film for the most part, one or two things bothered me, the obvious one being the grocer scene, that needs no explanation.

The other was when Chuckie, Hoffas son drove him and Sheeran to the house where he was murdered..he saw the two of them go in, this was the last time he was seen alive and nothing was ever made of it? didn't make any sense to me.

As with many incidents in the Hoffa story, Chuckie O'Brien's role is murky:

https://www.oxygen.com/true-crime-buzz/who-was-chuckie-obrien-in-the-irishman-and-the-godfather

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/09/26/jimmy-hoffa-and-the-irishman-a-true-crime-story/

johnny_ultimate

Gave Goodfells a rewatch for the first time in years the other night, and gotta say it really helped me appreciate this film more. That's a superb film, beautifully directed - particularly that final act, where the tetchy camerawork and twitchy editing echo the characters' cocaine-driven hysteria quite expertly. But, and this is neither a good nor a bad thing, it's very much your standard mob story - a rise and a llloonnnggg fall. Standard, just told extremely well indeed.

The Irishman is such a weightier thing. There's a restless, youthful feeling about Goodfellas at time, but here the characters truly feel like they're dragging the weight of the world behind them. Individual moments in Goodfellas spark like few other films - the 'shinebox' scene, Jimmy inviting Karen to pick up a dress - but I think The Irishman has this slower, more overwhelming sense of tragedy to it. The way nearly every character feels regret and exhausting percolates from early on, and in the second half for me it genuinely felt like they've all reached these complex, interesting emotional places.

It's rewarding seeing two great films, from similar creatives, with broadly similar subject matters, but that feel so radically different to each other.

PressRun

The more I think about it, the more I really do think it's a great film. I will watch it again.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Gave Goodfells a rewatch for the first time in years the other night, and gotta say it really helped me appreciate this film more. That's a superb film, beautifully directed - particularly that final act, where the tetchy camerawork and twitchy editing echo the characters' cocaine-driven hysteria quite expertly. But, and this is neither a good nor a bad thing, it's very much your standard mob story - a rise and a llloonnnggg fall. Standard, just told extremely well indeed.

The Irishman is such a weightier thing. There's a restless, youthful feeling about Goodfellas at time, but here the characters truly feel like they're dragging the weight of the world behind them. Individual moments in Goodfellas spark like few other films - the 'shinebox' scene, Jimmy inviting Karen to pick up a dress - but I think The Irishman has this slower, more overwhelming sense of tragedy to it. The way nearly every character feels regret and exhausting percolates from early on, and in the second half for me it genuinely felt like they've all reached these complex, interesting emotional places.

It's rewarding seeing two great films, from similar creatives, with broadly similar subject matters, but that feel so radically different to each other.

So weighty that it’s drudgery getting through it. I only want to experience drudgery when doing housework.

Reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vcNHGIk460

tylercheribini

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So weighty that it’s drudgery getting through it. I only want to experience drudgery when doing housework.

Reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vcNHGIk460

The consistent ageism on this thread is astonishing.

Padre_Pio

tylercheribini wrote: »

The consistent ageism on this thread is astonishing.

It's not ageist to say a 76 year old doesn't have the energy of a younger man.

tylercheribini

Padre_Pio wrote: »

It's not ageist to say a 76 year old doesn't have the energy of a younger man.

The moniker of "Auldfellas" being lumped about quite a bit, really begs the question why some watched it in the first place.

Wombatman

Wombatman wrote: »

What was going on with De Niro’s eyes? Found it disconcerting

5/10

Are you looking at my eyes?
- No
Because you don't need to look at my eyes. I had an operation and got my eyes fixed. My eyes are fine.
- Yeah well I ain't looking at your eyes.

thecowgoesmoo

Was decent but thought it would be a good bit better, I'd give it 55/100

Its not a mob film i'm going to remember to be honest.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

tylercheribini wrote: »

The consistent ageism on this thread is astonishing.

I’m sure you give a crap about ageism.

I’ve watched and enjoyed films about elderly people. They were interesting and lively.

tylercheribini

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’m sure you give a crap about ageism.

I’ve watched and enjoyed films about elderly people. They were interesting and lively.

Thats your standard response, "what about other films." yeah you are right though, Last Vegas is pure class.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

tylercheribini wrote: »

Thats your standard response, "what about other films." yeah you are right though, Last Vegas is pure class.

It is indeed. And?

buried

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Gave Goodfells a rewatch for the first time in years the other night, and gotta say it really helped me appreciate this film more. It's rewarding seeing two great films, from similar creatives, with broadly similar subject matters, but that feel so radically different to each other.

Have the rest of the day off today and will spend the rest of it doing this double bill. Always watch Goodfellas around Christmas so will be cool to see how this double bill manifests itself!

TheW1zard

Wasn't bad

Dots1982

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The Irishman is such a weightier thing. The Irishman has this slower, more overwhelming sense of tragedy to it. The way nearly every character feels regret and exhausting percolates from early on, and in the second half for me it genuinely felt like they've all reached these complex, interesting emotional places.

Being a couple of weeks since I seen it but I don’t really recall much regret on any of the characters apart from De Niro’s. And I’m not sure that was regret. More self-pity that his daughter treats him like he’s dead. Al Pacino’s characters opinion was just he owned the Teamsters and went to his “grave” thinking he was completely right and the Mafia didn’t have the balls to whack him. Joe Pesci’s character felt sorry for Hoffa being offed but it wasn’t like he was wracked with guilt.

I think you’re overegging this weight of overwhelming tragedy. I think the “heavy” feel came from the actors being so old and the narrative being a bit lifeless.

For mob movies where characters are wracked and haunted by their past misdeeds and being weighed down with them in an interesting, emotionally involving way then I’d be looking at Carlito’s way and Donnie Brasco.

buried

Watched the two films 'Goodfellas' and 'The Irishman' last night back to back and had a great time. Noticed a lot more things in both films from viewing them back to back. Various scenes and different acts that join up with each other over the course of the two films. Very cool.
The heavy hand of history is definitely more prevalent on 'The Irishman' but that is what it is about. Its not wanting to be a shaky cam quick fire edited portrayal of a cocaine addict who suddenly panics over his situation once the murders start kicking off. That's what I noticed in Goodfella's concerning Liotta's lead character. He's fine to take part in the robbing, stealing and mild beatings, but you can clearly see in Goodfella's that once the murders start flowing with Billy Batts in the bar, he starts to panic, gets way and way more into the drugs to escape the bloodshed. Then he loses it completely.
Sheeran's character doesn't have the same problem with murdering in 'The Irishman'. He is just blandly programmed to do it. I think that's why people are complaining so much about this character, but, that is how the director wanted to show him. He does show some slight disquiet over being a murderer but this disquiet being portrayed is very subtle. You barely notice Sheeran's stutters nearly every single time he is talking about going out to murder someone, but he does it, its the only time the character does this but it happens a lot. Even when he is talking to Buffalino in the relaxed bread eating scene about being sent to kill prisoners in the woods back in WW2, he begins to stutter.
Goodfella's is also helped by that Kenneth Anger inspired soundtrack of old pop songs cut up into the scenes. People seem to like that too. The Irishman doesn't have that. Still was great to watch these back to back. I'd recommend it if you have the time over the holiday.

Always Tired

I never knew Sheeran was from Philly until I saw the film, I actually grew up there. I then downloaded the book (which is excellent and at one part he talks about the house he rented after his first marriage and it turns out it was in the same neighborhood I grew up in, I actually lived in a house about a 10 minute drive from where he was and one of the irish pubs he hung out in.

I highly recommend the book, it goes into a lot more detail sbout his wartime activities which turned him into a proper killer. And one of the things I saw people online loling at was how it seemed like he just one day up and decided to start killing people for the mob after some guy fixed his car, but in real life, he actually DID get fired for stealing eventually, and there was another guy involved who had a wife and kids and Sheeran didnt rat him out so he could keep his job and he was connected so Frank got respect for that (and his near fluent Italian). He was also already running football pools for the mob on his route (basically like the football coupons you get in a bookie but they are illegal in the US until recently). When he got fired he lost the delivery income and the football gambling pool income so he had to start putting in more serious work.

There's also a hilarious part where young Frank is trying to get money for drink him and his mates all sell some blood, then go drinking at a carnival. Which would normally mean you get way way drunker and is probably dangerous. But as of that wasn't bad enough they come upon a contest where anyone who can beat a kangaroo in a boxing match won a cash prize. His first wife, who was also irish, is in the crowd so Frank has a go to impress her and get the money.

Apparently kangaroos jaws are very loose so you cant knock them out by hitting them there, but Frank doesnt know this. He keeps knocking the roo down and then getting hit with a blow to the head which he cant tell where it's coming from, he thinks it's the ref. Then he sees a boxing glove is on the end of the roo's tail, every time he knocked the roo down it was hitting him a slap with the tail.

He was one tough mother. His father used to take him to pubs and say his 11 year old could beat any boy up to 15 and he and others would bet money on the fight. Frank almost always won, and his father would keep the money and drink it.