Starting Strength on T-Nation

Hanley

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/who_wants_to_be_a_novice_you_do

Too funny.

d'Oracle

Apart from the "Bike Comment" it's nothing I haven't seen before.

Do you mean, funny as in "Rip has an amusing writing style"
or as in "I do not agree with what Rip is saying and wish to demean it by laughing at it"?

Parsley

I think it's the fact that they're trying to grab attention with this alarmingly simple, new, radical training approach..... but it's just starting strength.

token

Is it really Rip at all that wrote that? He doesn't write like that. Looks like someone atttempting to write in the style of Rip but with a load of bodybuilding.com style hyperbole to try sell it.

d'Oracle

Oh.
Is that not basically what T-nation articles do?

I mean bar the occasional Tate, Dan John or Cressy article its just streams of the same thing wrapped up as a new ting, usually bagging on something that is praised elsewhere, or Christian Tibbleybobbleydoo overcomplicating things while telling you he is making it simple?

Usually accompanied by bodybuilder crotch shots, of course.

d'Oracle

token wrote: »

Is it really Rip at all that wrote that? He doesn't write like that. Looks like someone atttempting to write in the style of Rip but with a load of bodybuilding.com style hyperbole to try sell it.

This also.
I can't see Rip not just writing the phrase "buy the book" about 50 times over and submitting it.

Also, Pretty sure he doesn't advocate doing chins after Deadlifts...

Mellor

Parsley wrote: »

I think it's the fact that they're trying to grab attention with this alarmingly simple, new, radical training approach..... but it's just starting strength.

This really.

One of the first lines is:

Coach Rip is an iron iconoclast whose philosophies stand in stark opposition to the conventional wisdom

Lots of waffle.

Compounds are better than isolation.

That's not in opposition to anything.

In keeping with our pledge to simplicity, we're going to squat, bench press, deadlift, press, power clean, and chin-ups. Since you're going to do some barbell curls even if I tell you that you won't need them, we might as well count that too. But that's all.

Ok, so the 6 main compounds, that everyone talks about, plus curls cos ya gotta have curls :rolleyes:



So, with all his years of EPIC exp, Rip (the intro is somebody else, but the yellow is supposedly Rip), making all these sum'bitches strong. His uber effective program that is at odds to everyone is;

Exactly the same as I (with 12months exp) would give out to a friend if asked.

Chet Zar

He speaketh the truth though.

I especially love the way it ends!

The old saying is that, "Success leaves clues." I'd submit that a profound lack of success in the weight room is equally telling. For evidence, you need to look no further than the legions of un-muscular individuals performing pec deck flyes.

d'Oracle

Mellor wrote: »

This really.



So, with all his years of EPIC exp, Rip (the intro is somebody else, but the yellow is supposedly Rip), making all these sum'bitches strong. His uber effective program that is at odds to everyone is;

Exactly the same as I (with 12months exp) would give out to a friend if asked.

I'm not convinced its actually his writing.
I'm also not convinced that you would be saying this if it wasn't Rip.

Also, would one not expect that with loads of experience under ones belt, one would find the method for working with beginners would be the simplest method?

d'Oracle

Anyway, Starting Strength is SOOOOOOO 2010.
Its Greyskull all the way for 2011.

Pace2008

"In keeping with our pledge to simplicity, we're going to squat, bench press, deadlift, press (you may call it the "overhead press" if you like, but don't call it the "shoulder press" unless you also plan on using the term "leg squat")"

What a ****ing horrible analogy.

dartstothesea

Anyone not saying upside-down arm-squats is mental, yeah.

eroo

Since most guys in the gym are not big and strong, most are novices

Does Rippetoe not understand that there are people out there who don't want to get big? Some just want to improve sporting performance or just get stronger! Doesn't mean they are novices. I have seen guys with 'athletic builds' lift more than your average big guy.. same big guy who spends an hour a week targeting shoulders and biceps alone!

d'Oracle

eroo wrote: »

Does Rippetoe not understand that there are people out there who don't want to get big?

I'm sure he does, but the whole idea is that this is a programme for people who want to get stronger. Its hardly a high rep hypertrophy programme.
Its 3x5.

eroo wrote: »

Some just want to improve sporting performance or just get stronger!

Its a strength training programme. I have little frame of reference here, but surely getting stronger will improve sporting performance?
I don't see the validity of the criticism here.

eroo wrote: »

Doesn't mean they are novices.

What do you understand is a novice, cos he is careful to say what he means. Its not a bad word, did you read the article or make up your mind first?

eroo wrote: »

I have seen guys with 'athletic builds' lift more than your average big guy.. same big guy who spends an hour a week targeting shoulders and biceps alone!

I'm struggling here. This last bit isn't even relevant to the conversation.
The programme is about getting your lifts up. It certainly doesn't advocate targeting shoulders and biceps alone, pretty much the opposite actually.

Why even bring that up like?
Is it just the use of the word "Big"?
Does the word "Big" have body-building connotations now?

I'm not being apologist for Rippetoe or anything, but your post just seems to be criticising something that was not said.

Transform

d'Oracle wrote: »

Anyway, Starting Strength is SOOOOOOO 2010.
Its Greyskull all the way for 2011.

johnny pain was interviewed on iron radio this week.

d'Oracle

Transform wrote: »

johnny pain was interviewed on iron radio this week.

I saw that, but didn't listen.

Was it any good?

dartstothesea

eroo wrote: »

Does Rippetoe not understand that there are people out there who don't want to get big? Some just want to improve sporting performance or just get stronger! Doesn't mean they are novices. I have seen guys with 'athletic builds' lift more than your average big guy.. same big guy who spends an hour a week targeting shoulders and biceps alone!

In Practical Programming I see Rip (or Lon?) talks about a Novice as someone who can make improvements (recover and grow) from one training session to the next. The word also seems to get used to refer to people who are far from their genetic potential in terms of strength or power.
So, again in the context of strength and power (don't know why you'd think the article's not about those, like) I think the 'not big' people referred to in the article are probably novices alright. Doesn't mean that heyre crap at any sport they do, just that they're at a point where they could still stand to make vast improvements in strength.
Yeah I'm probably what you could call a Rip apologist.

Transform

d'Oracle wrote: »

I saw that, but didn't listen.

Was it any good?

yes one of the best iron radio ones in a while and discusses his whole training life which was quite varied

Brian?

eroo wrote: »

Does Rippetoe not understand that there are people out there who don't want to get big? Some just want to improve sporting performance or just get stronger! Doesn't mean they are novices. I have seen guys with 'athletic builds' lift more than your average big guy.. same big guy who spends an hour a week targeting shoulders and biceps alone!

I think that's exactly what he teaches. Otherwise it would be called "Starting Getting Bigger".

You have to be the first person ever to use this as an argument to disagree with Rippetoe and that's because it's exactly what he preaches.

Brian?

Transform wrote: »

johnny pain was interviewed on iron radio this week.

Any man with a name like that was born to be beaten up by Hulk Hogan.

eroo

I was merely pointing out his comment basically slated people who weren't 'big and strong' as mostly being novices. That is what that comment says. And I am saying it is wrong, as there are plenty of strong people who aren't big. Christ take a deep breath.

My apologies for questioning the almighty 'Rip' whose hole the sun apparently shines out of! ha ha

itsallaboutheL

eroo wrote: »

I was merely pointing out his comment basically slated people who weren't 'big and strong' as mostly being novices. That is what that comment says. And I am saying it is wrong, as there are plenty of strong people who aren't big. Christ take a deep breath.

What's big exactly?

and who are these people?

Transform

eroo wrote: »

I was merely pointing out his comment basically slated people who weren't 'big and strong' as mostly being novices. That is what that comment says. And I am saying it is wrong, as there are plenty of strong people who aren't big. Christ take a deep breath.

My apologies for questioning the almighty 'Rip' whose hole the sun apparently shines out of! ha ha

there are lots of athletes that may not be as strong or even powerful (when tested) as their competitors but they move very very effectively and efficiently - no wasted energy.

eroo

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

What's big exactly?

and who are these people?

Do I really have to define big? He's not referring to height anyway.

blah88

While we're talkin T-Nation. Did anyone see the other new article just under the SS one.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/a_simple_program_for_complex_results
A hypertrophy program by Nick Tumminello. I'v trained mostly doing low rep, strength based programs such as SS. Would I see good size gains from doing a high volume program like this one? Assuming I eat enough.

d'Oracle

eroo wrote: »

I was merely pointing out his comment basically slated people who weren't 'big and strong' as mostly being novices. That is what that comment says. And I am saying it is wrong, as there are plenty of strong people who aren't big. Christ take a deep breath.

My apologies for questioning the almighty 'Rip' whose hole the sun apparently shines out of! ha ha

You are wrong though.
And instead of going back to check how you might be wrong, you have elected to post a really condescending post in response.

The problem here, as I pointed out, is that you seem to think that calling someone a "novice" is slating them. When in fact it refers to how advanced their adaption to strength training is and how it effects the rate at which they gain strength.
If you had actually read the article properly you would have seen that.

You see the thing is, while he is a bit obsessed with people getting bigger (Quote: Adult males weigh over 200lb) how many people train in gyms with weights and get significantly stronger without any increase in Lean Body Mass?

Brian?

eroo wrote: »

I was merely pointing out his comment basically slated people who weren't 'big and strong' as mostly being novices. That is what that comment says. And I am saying it is wrong, as there are plenty of strong people who aren't big. Christ take a deep breath.

My apologies for questioning the almighty 'Rip' whose hole the sun apparently shines out of! ha ha

Hah?

You seem to be stuck on the "big" part for some reason. The man is a strength and conditioning coach, his job is to make people stronger.

People who aren't as strong as they could be are novices, I really don't see what your argument is. There is nothing wrong with being a novice, it's not an insult, it's merely a state of being .

Question Rips methods all you want, I just take issue with you arguing that all he cares about is making people bigger, he doesn't.

lastlaugh

G'wan the Rip!

eroo

Well maybe it's just Rippetoe's renowned charm that got me caught up on 'novice'. Yes he does state it is a good thing for gains to be a novice. I did read the article d'Oracle and your reply stating I did not is condescending.

My point was saying most people are novices because they are not ''big and strong'' is silly.. I took issue mostly with the big part.

Anyways, I don't really care anymore. It's an internet article and we can all interpret it our own way.

Mellor

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm not convinced its actually his writing.
I'm also not convinced that you would be saying this if it wasn't Rip.

Also, would one not expect that with loads of experience under ones belt, one would find the method for working with beginners would be the simplest method?

I have no idea if its Rip or not, the intro said it was. Am I wrong to believe that?
Why would I not say that it is wasn't Rip? I was talking about what was said, not who said it. TBH, I know fcuk all about Rip and I don't see how that affects anything really?

My point was that the basic 6 compounds are not new, they are the base of every program, he is critising the PT type workouts of loads of isolation stuff gor 12 reps. I agree with the critism, but its irrelevant to his target audience.
Is a newbie came along here and asked what lifts to do, he get those 6 of 90% of the posters here.

Years of experience has nothing

Chet Zar

Stop arguing over nothing lads.

In fairness, there are likely hundreds of thousands of lads out there who thought a few lateral raises, bench presses and a few curls before hitting the pec-deck was a grand programme before reading Starting Strength or a Rip article online (and then getting real results). He obviously didn't invent the moves but he has helped get them out there in a big way.

Brian?

Chet Zar wrote: »

Stop arguing over nothing lads.

In fairness, there are likely hundreds of thousands of lads out there who thought a few lateral raises, bench presses and a few curls before hitting the pec-deck was a grand programme before reading Starting Strength or a Rip article online (and then getting real results). He obviously didn't invent the moves but he has helped get them out there in a big way.

It amazes me every time I go to the gym how many times I see skinny lads doing exactly the above. Do they never look around and see the guys in decent shape deadlifting and squatting?

Saw the perfect example the other day, 2 teenage lads spending an hour doing mutiple curls, triceps, cable crossovers and bench at the end. Meanwhile there was a guy beside me squatting 180kg for reps who was in great shape.

I think the 2 skinny teenagers were the target audience of this article.

Chet Zar

briankeating wrote: »

It amazes me every time I go to the gym how many times I see skinny lads doing exactly the above. Do they never look around and see the guys in decent shape deadlifting and squatting?

Saw the perfect example the other day, 2 teenage lads spending an hour doing mutiple curls, triceps, cable crossovers and bench at the end. Meanwhile there was a guy beside me squatting 180kg for reps who was in great shape.

I think the 2 skinny teenagers were the target audience of this article.

Yup. In the past say two years I can actually say I've seen maybe one or two other people deadlifting in any gym I've been in...I have seen people squatting - but reckon half of these were on Smith machines.

The thing is, most blokes hit the weights to get bigger arms for the pub on a Saturday night and just don't make any connection between working the back/leg muscles and actually being in great shape and looking strong, fit and lean. How is lifting a bar up off the ground gonna help your gunzz? I've seen lads looking at me deadlifting like I was slightly crazy - as in wtf is the point of what you're doing kinda thing.

Mellor

briankeating wrote: »

I think the 2 skinny teenagers were the target audience of this article.

They should be, but my point about target audience refers to the fact that these skinny teenagers probably don't frequent the fitness forum/T nation/5 x 5 wiki or any else online. If they did, they'd see how they were wrong by now.

Even mens health would be a improvement as the compounds occasionally appear and get gppd press.

Chet Zar wrote: »

Yup. In the past say two years I can actually say I've seen maybe one or two other people deadlifting in any gym I've been in...I have seen people squatting - but reckon half of these were on Smith machines.

I wish less people squatted. One of my gyms only has 1 rack (the other has 4), its a pain when I need it or the barbell for a few excercises in a row

Brian?

Chet Zar wrote: »

Yup. In the past say two years I can actually say I've seen maybe one or two other people deadlifting in any gym I've been in...I have seen people squatting - but reckon half of these were on Smith machines.

The thing is, most blokes hit the weights to get bigger arms for the pub on a Saturday night and just don't make any connection between working the back/leg muscles and actually being in great shape and looking strong, fit and lean. How is lifting a bar up off the ground gonna help your gunzz? I've seen lads looking at me deadlifting like I was slightly crazy - as in wtf is the point of what you're doing kinda thing.

I've experienced the quizzical looks while deadlifting as well. Even though my gym has a deadlift platform. I'd love to know what they think that platform is for.

d'Oracle

Mellor wrote: »

I have no idea if its Rip or not, the intro said it was. Am I wrong to believe that?
Why would I not say that it is wasn't Rip? I was talking about what was said, not who said it. TBH, I know fcuk all about Rip and I don't see how that affects anything really?

My point was that the basic 6 compounds are not new, they are the base of every program, he is critising the PT type workouts of loads of isolation stuff gor 12 reps. I agree with the critism, but its irrelevant to his target audience.
Is a newbie came along here and asked what lifts to do, he get those 6 of 90% of the posters here.

Years of experience has nothing

Bit defensive there.
I reckon if it wasn't Rip, you wouldn't react the way you did. Because people love to slag him off. Probably cos he puts himself out there and has strong opinions. If you have a totally neutral view of Rippetoe thats cool and I'm wrong on that one.

Moving on then:
when a newbie comes along here and asks what lifts to do they are nearly ALWAYS told to do almost THIS EXACT PROGRAMME or Strong Lifts5x5 which is more or less similar.

Also, where is there the remotest suggestion that this is new?
Its clearly stated that he has been at this for 35 years.
He learned his stuff from Bill Starr. Nobody says its new or revolutionary.
The article describes a simple novice linear progression.
You too are criticising the article for something its not saying or doing.

Remmy

d'Oracle wrote: »

Bit defensive there.
I reckon if it wasn't Rip, you wouldn't react the way you did. Because people love to slag him off. Probably cos he puts himself out there and has strong opinions. If you have a totally neutral view of Rippetoe thats cool and I'm wrong on that one.

Moving on then:
when a newbie comes along here and asks what lifts to do they are nearly ALWAYS told to do almost THIS EXACT PROGRAMME or Strong Lifts5x5 which is more or less similar.

Also, where is there the remotest suggestion that this is new?
Its clearly stated that he has been at this for 35 years.
He learned his stuff from Bill Starr. Nobody says its new or revolutionary.
The article describes a simple novice linear progression.
You too are criticising the article for something its not saying or doing.

+1
I kinda feel sorry for Bill Starr .He comes up with all this stuff and then some nameless cnut makes a website calls it a flashy name aka Stronglifts and people seem to make more noise about that than the original fcuking program.We dont even know what this Stronglifts guy looks like.For all we know he might look like sh*t and be weak as piss.grrr ok rant over..

d'Oracle

Remmy wrote: »

+1
We dont even know what this Stronglifts guy looks like.For all we know he might look like sh*t and be weak as piss.grrr ok rant over..

You kidding?
His pic is on the website.
He is a Pretty fella.

Bill Starr apparently does not own a computer.

Hanley

Remmy wrote: »

+1
I kinda feel sorry for Bill Starr .He comes up with all this stuff and then some nameless cnut makes a website calls it a flashy name aka Stronglifts and people seem to make more noise about that than the original fcuking program.We dont even know what this Stronglifts guy looks like.For all we know he might look like sh*t and be weak as piss.grrr ok rant over..

He's a f*cking dweeb and an embarrassement. He's training over 10 years, is something like 70kg and only pulls 180kg. I don't think he benches much over 100kg and only ever does above parallel box squats from what I've seen.

Anyone who takes advice from this guy is a complete and utter moron.

grimloch

Hanley wrote: »

He's a f*cking dweeb and an embarrassement. He's training over 10 years, is something like 70kg and only pulls 180kg. I don't think he benches much over 100kg and only ever does above parallel box squats from what I've seen.

Anyone who takes advice from this guy is a complete and utter moron.

Ten years of training to reach elite mass level, 165lbs


[/URL]

The thing is, most blokes hit the weights to get bigger arms for the pub on a Saturday night and just don't make any connection between working the back/leg muscles and actually being in great shape and looking strong, fit and lean. How is lifting a bar up off the ground gonna help your gunzz? I've seen lads looking at me deadlifting like I was slightly crazy - as in wtf is the point of what you're doing kinda thing.

To be brutally honest, 90%+ of the bench & curls bros looks better than the SS fanatics religiously squatting 3x a week.

Transform

grimloch wrote: »

Ten years of training to reach elite mass level, 165lbs


[/URL]




To be brutally honest, 90%+ of the bench & curls bros looks better than the SS fanatics religiously squatting 3x a week.

are you joking?

The guy looks like that!

Bring back Star, Mcrobert, Lestiner, Kubic et al from the hardgainer days and a few old time powerlifts and a few russians and we are all set

Edwardius

There's a discussion about that guy here and it's good for a few laughs and with some info on what he did before he became an awesome guru! I love the way he chooses to compare himself to Gates and Jobs when he says he didn't finish school.

That said, fair balls to him using the internet to get stinkin' rich.

COH

I think stronglifts is crap, I have zero interest in starting strength either. My main concern is why this stronglifts dwarf lubed up his entire body for the photograph?

dartstothesea

Stronglifts is a novice program (the basic version anyway) if I'm not mistaken and while it's hard for a novice program to go far wrong once diet & sleep are right, I definitely think it's far from crap. It's got all the basic compound lifts covered, surely. What's wrong with it? What do you think it's missing (aside from 1RM work, of course)?

For the most part I'd have to disagree about bench & curl bros "looking better". As if "better" is a meaningful term on it's own anyway. And as if just looking like something is the be all and end all. People pretty much solely doing chest and arms and some abs... you're talking about lads where the vast majority have no legs and even when that's not painfully apparent it's usually just 'cause the dude's wearing baggy track bottoms.



I have been doing Stronglifts 5x5 myself for the last 5 months, I should mention.

eroo

Can someone actually explain to me the diiference between strong lifts and starting strength?

I would have continued reading the stronglifts site but the ridiculous babble from Mhendi put me off.

COH

You dont really need to mention it, my thoughts on the programs arent a personal attack!

I just don't care about either program in the same way the internet does. Thats all. I get the principles of linear progression. I understand people should do compound exercises. But heres the kicker... I know a fair few 'strong' people, some are immensely strong by anyones standards. Of these some are bodybuilders, some are strongmen, some are powerlifters. Some look amazing, some look like ****.. whatevs.

How many of them did stronglifts/SS etc? None of them.
How many of them advocate either to beginners? None of them.
How many people do I know doing either program? Lots.
How many of them are as strong as the people mentioned above? None.

But thats just my personal experience. I equally don't care about many other programs. The strongest lads I know never did westside or 531 either. Not that the fundamentals of those are any less right or wrong. I wish I cared more to give you a more scientific answer.. but I can sum up my entire thought process on the subject in general as 'meh'.

eroo

Couldn't agree more COH.

Remmy

Transform wrote: »

are you joking?

The guy looks like that!

Bring back Star, Mcrobert, Lestiner, Kubic et al from the hardgainer days and a few old time powerlifts and a few russians and we are all set

+1


I think this is/was Starr..




Im no Starr 5x5 fanboy btw Im just saying credit where credit is due and there is enough people out there giving out information on strengthtraining/whatever Im going to listen to the people with results.

d'Oracle

dartstothesea wrote: »

What's wrong with it? What do you think it's missing (aside from 1RM work, of course)?

Nothing.
Its grand. It works and its working for you.
You should not be paying the remotest attention to this nonsense because you are making progress.

And its not missing 1rm work.
If your squat goes up over 5x5 your Squat 1rm will go up.

lastlaugh

COH wrote: »

I think stronglifts is crap, I have zero interest in starting strength either. My main concern is why this stronglifts dwarf lubed up his entire body for the photograph?

I wouldn't be overly concerned about it if I were you. That gimp seems like a total charlatan.

COH wrote: »

You dont really need to mention it, my thoughts on the programs arent a personal attack!

I just don't care about either program in the same way the internet does. Thats all. I get the principles of linear progression. I understand people should do compound exercises. But heres the kicker... I know a fair few 'strong' people, some are immensely strong by anyones standards. Of these some are bodybuilders, some are strongmen, some are powerlifters. Some look amazing, some look like ****.. whatevs.

How many of them did stronglifts/SS etc? None of them.
How many of them advocate either to beginners? None of them.
How many people do I know doing either program? Lots.
How many of them are as strong as the people mentioned above? None.

But thats just my personal experience. I equally don't care about many other programs. The strongest lads I know never did westside or 531 either. Not that the fundamentals of those are any less right or wrong. I wish I cared more to give you a more scientific answer.. but I can sum up my entire thought process on the subject in general as 'meh'.

What would you recommend to a beginner wanting to get stronger?
How did you start off?

I've been doing SS for a few months now and perhaps I feel a bit defensive of it as I've seen some results.

I found SS a good template to just head down to the Gym on my tod and start doing something... (and Rip has some good quotes)

COH

I knew this would happen!

lastlaugh wrote: »

I wouldn't be overly concerned about it if I were you. That gimp seems like a total charlatan.

Lol

lastlaugh wrote: »

I've been doing SS for a few months now and perhaps I feel a bit defensive of it as I've seen some results.

I found SS a good template to just head down to the Gym on my tod and start doing something... (and Rip has some good quotes)

If you're doing something, you're seeing results and you're enjoying it then dont change a thing. If it aint broke dont fix it til it is